Free Range Naturism

Naturism => Free Range Naturism => Trip reports => Topic started by: jbeegoode on May 16, 2018, 08:13:08 AM

Title: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on May 16, 2018, 08:13:08 AM
We travel up the other fork into the Whetstone Mountains. There we learn more about this piece of Arizona:

https://thefreerangenaturist.org/2018/04/30/whetstone-weekend-part-iii-oaks-in-the-forest/

Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on May 16, 2018, 12:12:41 PM
I enjoy reading your trip reports and descriptions of the countryside. Are these places all close to the border?
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on May 17, 2018, 07:10:18 PM
Depends on what you call close. This place was approximately "in line/slightly south of" with the road bordercheck point from I-10 to Sonoita. They have these spots that stop everybody, with dogs and ask your citizenship, etc. They were deemed illegal back in 1970 by the supreme court when Nixon did his horridly ignorant destructive bravado trick, but somehow they are back and have been for many years. There are patrols along the Old Sonoita Highway south of there. Grab a google map and find the junction of Highway 82 and 90 just north of Huachuca City, Arizona. This is northwest of that intersection. It looks to be 25 or 30 miles from the borderline. There is a grand gap south of these mountains of grassland and ranches. Otherwise, there would have been more traffic where there is water. Nearly no one had been there for months. judging the tire tracks, overgrowth and lack of rain that we have had, even the ranchers.

The Tucson area is an hour from Nogales. I think 70 miles. Tomorrow we're heading down to two areas that see more illegal pack/foot traffic and patroling. The geography causes that, but the latitude is similar.

It feels like Arizona USA, but when we get in the mountains, we are looking at Mexico. When my folks had their house in the Catalina foothills and the air was clear, 40 years ago, we could see the mountains in Mexico from the front porch from Tucson. There is a great Mexico influence. Most of these areas that we visit were once Mexico before the Gadsen Purchase.

Lots of Hispanic proper names, on streets, buildings and food. Lots of Mexican ancestry and history. The border can be the way that you feel it. The artificial one is just a set of laws and restrictions.

I'm not sure what you were getting at with that question, so you now have several answers. Why do you ask? What were you thinking to ask? I'm sure that I can address the more specific.
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on May 17, 2018, 07:56:23 PM
Curiosity, mainly, to clarify a reference in your trip reports, the part where you mention the Border Patrol stop. Although we have been to Arizona, we did not go south of Phoenix.

By the way, in the place where I'm from, any sign is fair game for a pot shot, especially if it has a deer on it.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on May 18, 2018, 02:26:57 AM
Deer, elk, mamma bear with her paw stuffed up the little bears butt, get pot shots, but generally not with the veracity of these signs. The black figure usually is a target.

The have structures to them these days. By law, they have to be between a certain distance from the border, I don't know what that is anymore off the top of my head. They are on major routes. The trucks cruise the rest. I never know when I might see one, or where, but closer to the border, I'll expect them. They set up like a war zone in some areas. It is creepy. They are not looking for naked people, just smugglers.

The Ruby Road trip report talks of the war zone. After this weekend, I'll be setting up a twenty year old story about border patrol and a nude group to publish in a month or two. It is written, but I need to gather some pics to go with it. Maybe, I'll move the publishing date up.
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: rrfalcon on May 19, 2018, 11:30:06 PM
I think that the Border Patrol checkpoints were ruled to be legal if they are within a certain distance of the border. Essentially it's still a border crossing station where they have the power to stop and, at their discretion, search everyone who passes through. Beyond that distance, it's no longer covered by border security and a warrant or reasonable cause is required to stop or search people. Note that I'm not a lawyer, so all of the preceding might be wrong! :-)
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on May 21, 2018, 09:30:40 PM
I think that they are limited in search and seizure, or to reasonable cause. They have dogs, they look into the vehicle and listen.  i don't know what the criteria are. There are people driving through who have been snitched off, or seen doing something previous to their trip.

There are checkpoints for drunk drivers. I think that it had something to do with the basis for those.

I resent it. We resent having to get dressed like a paper doll to cover our bodies. They are Feds and there have always been stops to check for interstate fruit shipping violations. 

All my opinions are about vague rulings, not an attorney either. I wouldn't be fool enough to ask a border patrol agent. ;D
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on May 22, 2018, 08:34:42 PM
Early April, how were the temperatures?

I like the ďNo campingĒ sign photo. :D  Yeah, others seem to have expressed their opinion of the rancherís idea of privilege.

The person posting the no trespassing sign has conveniently left off the name and address. Maybe some recourse there? Could it be a bluff?

I always carry a couple plastic bags in my pack to drag trash out. Occasionally I donít have enough bags. Itís sad and frustrating. So many people simply think that the trash will just decay. There has to be a lot of water for that to happen. In the desert it will deteriorate, but it takes years. The wind and rain slowly wear it down till it disappears. Itís more a process of erosion than decay. Some of the ghost towns weíve been in have trash left from over 100 yrs. ago.

More evidence that we need to take a trek down there for some camping. I donít think I could convince Mrs. E to do the primitive camping routine. She loves camping but prefers the more organized campground sites. Maybe Iíll try and do some baby step camping in quasi-remote sites as and introductory.

Loved the pictorial story.

Duane
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on May 23, 2018, 07:08:42 PM
Mrs. E might take to a more glamping set up. A less primitive site has a toilet and water. rarely a shower. That is easy to compete with.

I built a nice shitter (or the nice green way to say it "composting toilet facility") for my sweat for the price of scrap wood and a five gallon bucket. Toilet seat at Goodwill. With peat, it is clean and actually much nicer than many of those public toilets, and the chemicals, that I hate to use. Certainly beats a porta potty. Try a nice wood finish. You take water in a big jug, $15. You put a nice oriental rug on the floor from a garage sale. A good size air mattress, pump plugs into the car cig lighter. Then those solar showers work, well okay, just okay. Erect PVC enclosures, or find a remote spot for privacy. $100 to $200 easy. $50 to $100 with what you have laying around and some frugality and search. Mirror and sink? Easily done.

Fewer people, less noise, more pristine. Real ground, not dirty ash laden dusty dirt from over use.


The temps were wonderful. Morning sun on a southern slope, afternoon on the northern slope. Nice breeze to even things out.
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on May 25, 2018, 01:29:43 AM
Yeah, all those are good ideas and she does well even at a limited campsite, e.g. toilets only. What you might call frugal glamping. :)  She likes the car camping so coming up with a solution for the minor conveniences (a tipío the hat to luxuries) might make her willing to push the edge, so to speak.

Your toilet parts list reminded me of a friend of mine whose wife DID like to go backpacking. He said the whole process of needing a toilet was solved by her on a trip where she ran across the sun bleached pelvic bone of a large animal. I donít remember what he said it was from.

She took it and set it on some stones so the large curved bones were turned up so she could sit on it just like a chair seat, and set it a foot or so above the ground. She dug a hole beneath and voila, a toilet seat! Happy as a clam! * :D  My friend was laughing because she was so pleased with her invention. Unfortunately she has since had to give up the backpacking because of a serious knee injury. But making do what materials at hand is a good way take care of things.

When we camped at the GC south rim we stayed in the campgrounds which were good, clean and very well maintained. Itís a nice campground, but the problem for me was the fact that it was so crowded. It was packed. Over 300 campsites and booked solid. Not my idea of a enjoyable camping trip. But we were on our way home and we just needed a place to pitch a tent.

I hate to think what that place is gonna be like this coming weekend. Glad I wonít be there.

Duane

* Why is it that are clams so happy?
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on May 25, 2018, 05:50:59 AM
The toilet construction is explained on the internet, I can get you the info. Very easy. A friend of mine has know the guys who make them, since they were young kids.

That hip bone idea id brilliant...but then have a little respect for the dead?...or yea, that's what the previous owner did with it.

HAppy as a clam! Everything is on te internet it would seem.

"What's the origin of the phrase 'As happy as a clam'?

Why would clams be happy? It has been suggested that open clams give the appearance of smiling. The derivation is more likely to come from the fuller version of the phrase, now rarely heard - 'as happy as a clam at high water'. Hide tide is when clams are free from the attentions of predators; surely the happiest of times in the bivalve mollusc world. The phrase originated in the north-eastern states of the USA in the early 19th century. The earliest citation that I can find is from a frontier memoir The Harpe's Head - A Legend of Kentucky, 1833:

    "It never occurred to him to be discontented... He was as happy as a clam."

As happy as a clamThe first definitive record that I can find of the 'high water' version is from the US newspaper The Bangor Daily Whig And Courier, December 1841:

    "Your correspondent has given an interesting, and, undoubtedly correct explanation of the expression: 'As happy as a clam at high water.'"

However, several biographies of General Robert E. Lee state that he used the expression 'as happy as a clam at high water' on more than one occasion. One such states that he included it in a letter that he wrote in 1833, which would pre-date the above by a few years. I can't find a record of the letter in question so the account is second-hand, but it is entirely plausible that Lee would have used the expression at that time.

The expression was well-enough known in the USA by the late 1840s for it to have been included in John Russell Bartlett's Dictionary Of Americanisms - A Glossary of Words And Phrases Usually Regarded As Peculiar To The United States, 1848:

    "As happy as a clam at high water," is a very common expression in those parts of the coast of New England where clams are found.

Also in 1848, the Southern Literary Messenger from Richmond, Virginia expressed the opinion that the phrase "is familiar to everyone"."
https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/as-happy-as-a-clam.html
Jbee

Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Bob Knows on May 25, 2018, 03:19:19 PM
The toilet construction is explained on the internet, I can get you the info. Very easy. A friend of mine has know the guys who make them sense they were young.
Jbee


There is  a book on this topic called  How to Shit in the Woods, 3rd Edition: An Environmentally Sound Approach to a Lost Art by Kathleen Meyer.  I looked it up for a link and I see its now in its 3rd edition. 

When I lived in Los Alamos, NM, it was the most popular book at the local bookstore. 

https://www.amazon.com/How-Shit-Woods-3rd-Environmentally/dp/1580083633/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1527254091&sr=1-1&keywords=How+to+shit+in+the+woods (https://www.amazon.com/How-Shit-Woods-3rd-Environmentally/dp/1580083633/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1527254091&sr=1-1&keywords=How+to+shit+in+the+woods)
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on May 25, 2018, 03:33:20 PM
The funniest nature book I've ever seen, and which was for sale in a museum shop, is Flattened Fauna.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on May 26, 2018, 02:31:49 AM
I picked up shit in the woods at your recommendation, Bob. Its around here somewhere... ??? ::)
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Peter S on May 27, 2018, 01:39:20 PM
Re the border patrol issue earlier, I came across this feature


https://flipboard.com/article/the-surge/f-50db7f3e87%2Ftexasobserver.org

on how itís affecting part of Texas. It mentions at one point that within 25 miles of the border, the border patrol can legally enter and search premises, so that would probably include stop and search of vehicles. In relation to other discussions weíve had about CCTV in the woods, seems they go in for that a lot in Texas, as well.

Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Bob Knows on May 27, 2018, 04:06:45 PM
Re the border patrol issue earlier, I came across this feature

The 2016 election demonstrated that a great many Americans believe there is a large problem along the border between the US and Mexico.   However, this is not a political forum so this is not a good place to be advocating for border security political issues. 
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Peter S on May 28, 2018, 07:11:30 AM
As Iím the other side of the pond, Bob, Iíve no political skin in this game, which is why I gave the link rather than any content.

Peter
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on May 29, 2018, 09:00:10 PM
It is good information to have, if you are a free range naturist along the border. It is important to know that there are military fascist checkpoints along the roads and how they act toward the public. I want to know how much surveillance there is, will they enforce any and all law, or just be patrolling for smuggling and ignore the rest, do they have authority to usurp constitutional protections like some kind of martial law, where the law enforcement is lawless. Will I be innocently skinny dipping in a river, cooling off on a hot day and be arrested by a military gunboat with automatic weapons! ;D

There are polls of opinion about the border. There are local polls, national polls, regional polls. There is a great deal of hoopla to create fear. The results of the election show nothing about public opinion themselves. One opinion will tell you that mostly fearful, racists are concerned about the border and there were so many that it swung the election. Another side will opine that the problem is caused by an artificial line, and self-serving politicians, or ignorant laws are supporting lobbyists, bulging bureaucracies, the military/industrial and the prison complex. Another pulls on dependency issues, "my grandpa's uncle was an immigrant, jobs, on and on.

I want to know what is in my backyard. How law enforcement, abuse of power, an ignorant blustering president and a kowtowing lying political process in congress effect me, my region, my freedoms and as follows my lifestyle. How can I best deal with it.

Yea, it is best to step out of political issues, even though for once, Bob and I probably agree on some of it ;) ;D ::), but there are certainly free range pieces to the grander puzzle.
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on May 29, 2018, 10:13:07 PM
Some of those issues apply when you're hundreds of miles from any international border. The government is no worse than the citizens. There are other things to keep in mind, too. For instance, the Appalachian Trail runs quite near Camp David, the presidential retreat in Maryland. I don't think it's used much these days but you can bet security is high in that area.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Peter S on May 30, 2018, 06:48:00 PM
Our prime ministerial equivalent of Camp David is a country house estate called Chequers. One time we were walking (textile) with friends who pointed out the house poking above the trees. We passed through a gate and came out next to a heavily chained and cameraíd set of gates designed to protect the estate. Except we had just walked across said estate unchallenged on a public footpath, and not even realised we were within the hallowed grounds - such is the sacred nature of the English footpath.

We were probably on camera all the way and shadowed by unseen guardians, but at the Iím excited it certainly felt as though security had been trumped by the footpath system.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on May 30, 2018, 06:57:36 PM
The "sacred" footpath...I get that. Should be that. Yea!
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on May 31, 2018, 07:14:54 PM
I understand that such sacred paths were a long time coming in the U.K. Over here, the Appalachian Trail (for recreational use) isn't really all that old and only after WWII did someone actually walk from end to end. Other trails I'm not so familiar with. There is one trail I do know about and have hiked on a little is not technically a trail but a canal towpath. Canal boats are ancient history and the canal itself (C&O Canal) only has water in it in a few places but the former towpath is perfect for easy walking. Good view of the Potomac River much of the way and it even goes right into Washington.

During the western migration period in this country, beginning even before the revolution, there were trails used by settlers (and immigrants) but those have largely disappeared.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on June 01, 2018, 12:04:02 AM
They became two track roads, then two lane highways, then interstate highways, as I have read.

We have an
"Old Spainish Trail" southeast of Tucson.
Jbee 
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 01, 2018, 01:14:27 AM
Almost! The interstate highways have always been totally new highways for most of the way. Even older roads are sometimes relocated, the older parts bypassed and all but forgotten. One of the streets leading to my house is named "old" something. But the name isn't because the road is old but is instead named after an old water mill, itself long gone. But the "real" old road is still visible in places.

The interstates around the cities cut communities in two, destroyed neighborhoods and dislocated lots of people. The bypassed main highways became stretches of roads with failed businesses because there was no more traffic. I imagine that in the West, Route 66 is like that and probably best known. In the East, it would be U.S. Route 1.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on June 01, 2018, 04:02:15 PM
Quote from: BlueTrain
During the western migration period in this country, beginning even before the revolution, there were trails used by settlers (and immigrants) but those have largely disappeared.

We were doing some reading on the Cumberland Trail when we were there last year and found out that the trail wasnít created by Daniel Boone. It was an ancient trail used by the Indians who had co-opted it from the buffalo and deer that created it from hundreds of years of migration. Within 20 years no buffalo were east of the Mississippi and deer populations had been decimated.

The same is true of the Natchez Trace. It was on old Indian trail long before the Europeans arrived. Iíve been on parts of it in Tennessee. Wildlife knows the best routes and people hunting wildlife use them, ďbecause thatís where the wildlife is.Ē Thereby adhering to Suttonís Law.

Knowledge handed down learned through observing nature.
Unfortunately for the Indians, it spelled the end of their life and culture.

Duane
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on June 01, 2018, 04:04:06 PM
When the old roads for horses and wagons were adapted for cars, they simply followed the old road. As mechanized heavy equipment was developed, roads were leveled and straightened to allow the newer higher speed cars to travel faster. Many old communities too far from the new roads were abandoned for the efficiencies of the automobile.

Thereís a highway in East Texas I used to love to travel on. Hwy 21. It runs from the Louisiana border at Toledo Bend Reservoir all the way to San Marcos. The part I loved to drive was through Davy Crockett National Forest.

Two lanes winding through dense forest. There arenít any shoulders, just the two lanes and whatever you meet on the road. It goes through some tiny wide spots and often the trees overhang the road completely. Most traffic is on the I-45 or the other US highways, so there were always very few cars.

There are wonderful sections of old highways still around.

Duane
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 01, 2018, 07:25:28 PM
Before cars became more or less common, which was probably not until after WWI, the railroads were the thing. In most cases the towns were already there but the railroads helped them grow. That lasted until after WWII. Now some old railroad right-of-ways, all delightfully level and only the slightest of grades, have been converted to hiking and biking trails. I suspect those on foot and those on bikes wish the others weren't there taking up space.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Bob Knows on June 01, 2018, 10:23:56 PM
Before cars became more or less common, which was probably not until after WWI, the railroads were the thing. In most cases the towns were already there but the railroads helped them grow. That lasted until after WWII. Now some old railroad right-of-ways, all delightfully level and only the slightest of grades, have been converted to hiking and biking trails. I suspect those on foot and those on bikes wish the others weren't there taking up space.


We have many miles of abandoned railroad beds converted to trails and now owned by the state park department.   Their one uniform feature is that they are almost entirely uniform, a.k.a.  boring.  Mile after mile of level, wide, unbroken, gravel.  Through cuts, over fills, all of it level.

(http://photos.bradkemp.com/4columbiaplateautrail1.jpg)
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 02, 2018, 12:08:45 AM
You'd love where I go, then. No straight lines, very little level ground, no gravel but plenty of mud. Also lots of underbrush, mosquitos, the occasional deer, fox or owl. But it's all worth it to get to the best view in the county (in my opinion) from the top of a dam.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: rrfalcon on June 04, 2018, 03:34:56 AM
I'm currently reading "Alone in the Wilderness", by Joseph Knowles. In 1913, he stripped naked and walked into the Maine woods to spend two months on his own, living off of the land using his knowledge of woodcraft. No clothes, no equipment, nothing that he could not create from the land around him.  One thing he mentions is that the animal trails always follow the easiest path to wherever they're going (water, food, etc.). Our ancestors knew that, and so followed them when they needed to go somewhere, and that's how the first trails and roads were created.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 04, 2018, 12:52:59 PM
It always struck me that doing such a thing would require the virtual absence of other people, not so much for modesty's sake, but because of the carrying capacity of "wilderness." So there is the question of how much wilderness is required to support an individual under such circumstances. It's an interesting exercise, though.

Realistically, it's like the typical comic strip image of someone on a tiny island with a lone coconut palm. Unlikely. Thoreau, who knew something about living by himself, said it is difficult to start without borrowing. Even Dick Proenneke did that and even stayed in someone else's cabin while he built his own, which was apparently no philosophical problem to him. One book about him is also titled "Alone in the Wilderness." Proenneke lived to be almost twice the age of Thoreau, by the way. I don't believe the other fellow built a cabin but he came out wearing a fur coat.

For a completely different take on living an isolated life in a fairly remote region, I recommend "We took to the woods," by Louise Dickenson Rich.  She also wrote "My neck of the woods."
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Bob Knows on June 04, 2018, 03:09:57 PM
I'm currently reading "Alone in the Wilderness", by Joseph Knowles. In 1913, he stripped naked and walked into the Maine woods to spend two months on his own, living off of the land using his knowledge of woodcraft. No clothes, no equipment, nothing that he could not create from the land around him.  One thing he mentions is that the animal trails always follow the easiest path to wherever they're going (water, food, etc.). Our ancestors knew that, and so followed them when they needed to go somewhere, and that's how the first trails and roads were created.


I recently saw a TV documentary about Mr. Knowles.  He was one of the big media hoaxes of its day.  They sold millions of copies and put his paper on the map, but the months naked in the wilderness were fake.  He lived in a cabin writing fake reports which his editor published.   

 ďNaked in the Woods: Joseph Knowles and the Legacy of Frontier Fakery.Ē
https://loe.org/shows/segments.html?programID=08-P13-00006&segmentID=6

Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on June 04, 2018, 07:26:44 PM
What the wilderness will bear is a key note. Back in the day, there was more abundance, more untouched ecological diversity. The season and the region made resources available. A deciduous forest with clear dependable water, the riparian areas, the bug zones, all of these make for survival in the wilderness. From year to year, the weather changes. What was available, last year, last week, yesterday, may change.

The primitive people that I've visited in the Amazon basin lived in settlements, where they hunted just outside their doors, the women fished daily, they were naked in a place on the equator, a consistent place. They also, were not alone. They had community, something that we are all hardwired into. Others increase survival and make us stronger against the challenges that we may have. They had familiarity with their stomping grounds. They planted already available plants like banana and plantain in groupings like an orchard for better availablity. They knew what they could eat, which can change from place to place. The whole thing of naked and alone in the wilderness is relative in its accomplishment. It depends on what blessings that you have available and knowledge given of how to utilize the blessings, not the ego of a solitary manly man conquering nature.

I've got a fun read that I'll post after I get home to my own computer. It is a bet with some boyscouts who are tossed naked into the woods back in the 1930's, I think. It is published on line. They put together some clothing for protection, they knew crafts.

We took our granddaughter up to our secret spot on Mt. Lemmon last weekend. Somebody had made a couple of survival structures up there. It is fun to play at it, fascinating to learn how to live in primitive ways.

How primitive living affects a modernized body:

My trip of late is learning how the body adapts to living in primitive ways and and within its environment. How civilization is creating illness and cutting back on life span. I'm discovering what civilization has done with my body over the years, as I stretch, and yoga my way back from slouching and sitting on chairs instead of squatting and sitting yogi-like on the floor, or cloth, or cushions. Dexterity, flexibility, stretch, coordination of many muscles together, improper muscle memory, restrictions of clothing and shoes all contribute immensely to aging and restricted lifestyle with age and risk of damaging the body.

So, living naked and being barefoot, I take that to nature and uneven surfaces of various textures. I massage the feet, because I see how extreme the influence of shoes have been and how it has affected the rest of my body. The restrictions of clothing. The natural flow from inside out, and waste/toxin releases. Clothing and civilized environments make extreme challenges and changes to a body.

Now, in addition to this, I'm working on squatting. I noticed that third-world people do this commonly. Now, I find that they don't have the back troubles that we have. There is evidence that some may actually live longer and of quality than we affluent, which are sitting on our thrones. I have been studying the body and muscle groups that are affected. My exercise stretch experiences and simple self-awareness in a short time showed me intimately that this is actually true. I'm learning more and more.

Now, I've learned of another bio-mechanical throw-back that is of benefit to a body. The muscles that are needed most in posture and associated with back pain are the same ones that are used and stretched while swinging in trees like an ape. There has been obvious and curative results from using hoops and swinging hand over hand. Our bodies like this, IF they are not too far gone. It may cause injury if so. Beware! There are few effective ways to strengthen these muscles, but this activity nails it. So, I have been hanging and doing pull ups as best as I can on a structural beam on my porch. Yesterday, I received a tow strap apparatus with loops, which I can attach hoops into and do this overhead, swinging, back and forth to strengthen may back and keep it straight. It is sort of a more flexible and natural way of gravity inversion boots, an addition to them, because it requires exercising those muscles, not just stretching. I can hardly do a pull-up anymore, let alone several, or gracefully. I haven't been on monkey bars for decades. I did go hand over hand on such a strap with my body in a long swimming pool last year and it was fun.

So, after doing the wrong things for decades, it is a long careful road back from things that are generally accepted as symptoms of age, instead of symptoms of disuse and imbalance and flexibility in the intricate muscle structures of a body. So far, so good...AND, naked, of course.
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 04, 2018, 08:54:03 PM
Wow, really nice post. Done agree with everything but if anything, you didn't go far enough.

But it's not a simple thing. Thousands of years of evolution brought everyone everywhere to where they are now, progress-wise. Polynesians didn't learn to navigate the South Seas overnight.

The book you mentioned is "Boy Scouts in the Wilderness." The general plot as it starts out is that one of the boys is an Indian who knows everything. It's basically an adolescent adventure novel. It's both difficult to imagine how that could be done today, as well as something like that being written. Just imagine, two naked boys going into the woods together.

It's hard to comment on how primitive living affects one's health. My mother-in-law is 95 and her first cousin and former neighbor lived past 100. They were city girls. But my late stepmother lived out in the country under relative primitive conditions, even to the extent of living in a log house (not a cabin!), always kept a large garden and so on, only lived to be 70. No one I am related to ever complained about back problems, so I don't have any first-hand stories to add. But the Romans never sat when they could lie down, which I'll go along with, except that was probably not true for everyone.

However, much of what you mention only seems to describe so-called primitive people in certain places. Anyway, I doubt that any of those people think of themselves as primitive no more than any of us would think of ourselves as low-class. Likewise, I doubt that any of the Indians, including those in the Amazon, have the same idea of wilderness as we do. In a sense, as soon as anyone lives in a place, it ceases to be wilderness.

"Modern man" has certain characteristics brought on by our lifestyles that are not good, yet we still managed to live long and mostly healthy lives. We tend to gloss over the serious problems experienced by primitive people, too, which are pretty much the same as what most people in this country lived with up through the 1930s, I'd say. There were lots of diseases that are not the problems they once were and infant death is not what it once was. In my father's family, two children did not live to their first birthday and in my step-mother's family, there were also two who didn't make it. Nobody ever had cancer, yet they're all dead just the same.

The biggest difference between us and the primitive people you describe are our social structures and our patterns of land ownership. Primitive people may have been territorial but they probably didn't conceive of ownership of a plot of land like we do. North American Indians just didn't understand how you could own land. In Europe and the Americas, wealth can be based on land ownership. But primitive people also probably had no concept of wealth, either.

Mankind has always been physically adapted to doing only some things fairly well compared with animals. No human is going to swing through the trees like a monkey but few animals can do a marathon.

The biggest think I have noted about primitive people, according to what I read, is that they have more leisure time than we do. Even in a so-called survival situation, we have the idea that we always have to be doing something. We likewise feel that we have to have a lot of stuff for survival and only the latest, most expensive knife will do or we'll die in the wilderness. Instead, what we should be doing is learning how to do without a knife, especially expensive ones.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on June 05, 2018, 04:40:15 PM
Iíd never heard of Jim Knowles until just now. But it appears that heís from that period in American history when all those wild west stories were being kicked around and making money back east. Just joining in the new entertainment industry I guess.

The whole idea of surviving on your own without assistance could be divided into different groups.
  Absolutely nothing, completely naked and empty handed.
  Completely naked with one or two items.
  Wearing something and empty handed.
  etc. etc.

If you set out clothed with tools and supplies are you really surviving with no assistance? Who made those tools and supplies? You either bought or borrowed the stuff and as a result had to rely on someone elseís expertise to survive. Knives and other tools needed to guarantee survival would be hard to make.

A personal survival challenge should be set up for your own reasons, not someone elseís. The silliness on TV these days is pop entertainment and shouldnít be confused with real survival.

Duane
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on June 05, 2018, 04:41:13 PM
Quote from: Jbee
The muscles that are needed most in posture and associated with back pain are the same ones that are used and stretched while swinging in trees like an ape. There has been obvious and curative results from using hoops and swinging hand over hand.
Jbee, I learned long ago that any attempt to try and swing on a bar or a ring on a rope will usually result in a gravity experiment. :D  Make sure you have strengthened the muscles in your upper body before trying to do at home what you see on TV. There was a time way back when I could do that all day. Not now unless I prepare.
FYI to use.

Duane
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 05, 2018, 05:30:36 PM
Well, just about everything on television is for entertainment and even the news has to be entertaining to a degree so you won't watch someone else's news. All of the so-called reality programs, especially including survival shows, are a little contrived. I've not watched any, so I can't really otherwise comment. But I gather that some attempt to be titillating with nudity and so on. Mostly I don't care for the term "survivalist." It has been applied to people who probably wouldn't have cared for the label. When has any survivalist ever been in a real survivalist situation?

Being dropped down out of the sky (gently) with absolutely nothing and by yourself is an unlikely scenario anyway. Primitive peoples are never in such situations and would rarely (I assume) be by themselves. Our image of a survival situation is exactly where they live all the time. It is true, of course, that if you place yourself in certain situations, such as taking a long walk in the woods, you should be prepared to handle anything that might happen to you. I'm just speaking of an ordinary hike, not mountain climbing or technical rock climbing. Tent camping actually includes a few additional risks but they can be minimized with a little forethought. None of that is to suggest there are no risks or dangers.

Although lions are apparently a serious danger in a few places and I have seen bears in the woods, I believe wild animals are not a serious concern for most people. I have long believed that falling is probably the greatest risk. As it happens, I've had only serious falls at home, so what does that tell you? As a gauge of risk and danger, it occurred to me when going over my first aid kit that it was inadequate for any serious injury and unnecessary for anything else. But I didn't change anything because what I have is convenient and handy, if not much used. The only thing I have recently added is cough drops.

Didn't mean to be so long-winded. My personal survival challenge is to do a 20 mile hike in one day, although I don't see it as a survival test so much as an endurance test.

Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 05, 2018, 05:39:33 PM
I totally forgot something I wanted to mention. There was a novel "Hatchet" about a boy who is in a plane crash (small plane, pilot has heart attack) and manages to get out with only a hatchet. Interesting story and also made into a movie. He does fairly well for himself under the conditions. Later, he is able to retrieve more things from the plane and is finally rescued.

Then there is Robinson Crusoe and Swiss Family Robinson.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Bob Knows on June 05, 2018, 05:57:26 PM
I don't usually watch Naked and Afraid because the producers are afraid to show naked "bits."   I did sometimes watch "Dual Survival" where two men were dumped into the wilderness somewhere and had to survive.  One barefoot guy (I forgot his name) was obviously better skilled than the jerk who kept complaining about him not wearing shoes.  He finally got disgusted and left the show.  He was replaced by a man who obviously had knowledge and experience in the woods. 

The Dual Survival introduced the replacement survivor on an episode where the new guy arrived in the woods a couple days sooner than the continuing jerk.  New guy had already set up a comfortable camp and scouted a herd of wild pigs to hunt.  Jerk fellow arrived, complained, and began planning how to get rescued on the designated time.  New guy crafted an atlatl and soon was eating his fill of roast pork despite the jerk's complaints that he was hunting wrong.  When the day came for the "rescue" the jerk was hot to get home but the new guy was enjoying his stay in the woods and wanted to camp for another week.   To me, the show managed to demonstrate that knowledge of basic survival skills is more important than materials.   

Another aspect of the "Survivor" TV shows is that the places don't have local populations.  That usually means a severe shortage of food or other needed resources.  Places that have resources are pretty much already occupied by locals. 

I am also reminded of a You-Tube video by some guy who starts in the woods with nothing, starts building a cabin of mud and wood branches, then makes a fire and small furnace where he bakes clay into tetra-cootta tiles for the roof.  In a couple weeks he had a cozy cabin with tile roof, windows, hard door, fireplace, etc.  Also had ceramic dishes and pots.  Its all about knowledge and skill.

I also saw a made for TV "experiment" where the producers took about 8 or 10 CITY people, gave them a 2 week crash class on wilderness skills, and dumped them into the woods where they were supposed to survive a month.   The TV producers expected premise was to show how CITY people would starve and fail at being a primitive tribal group.  The group first made some bows, arrows, and atlatls , and then started hunting for food.  They starved for 3 days without finding any food.  One woman gave up and asked the TV crew for rescue.  Some of the men (inexperienced but not stupid) decided that the location chosen by the TV people was not survivable.  The large game herds had migrated to high summer pasture.  So the "village" packed what they could carry and relocated about 20 miles to a high mountain camp.   Soon they had found the elk herd and killed a large bull elk with an atlatl.  They all ate their fill and stored the rest in a cold mountain stream.  Much to the disappointment of the TV crew, the CITY people lived well and prospered as a primitive tribe.

We city people are taught skills like Internet and car repair, but we could learn hunting and fishing quickly if needed.  The biggest problem is that wild game will not support 6 billion people. 
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on June 05, 2018, 07:16:57 PM
Iíve seen enough of the Naked and Afraid shows to know I donít want to see another one.

That was Cody Lundin (http://codylundin.com/), I mentioned the barefoot guy on ďYe Olde SyteĒ once and someone, I think it was Dan (freewalkerma) chimed in because he knew all about him. Very respected in that community. I had commented on how he was walking, heel-toe.
 
I remember that about the ďthe jerkĒ. They were climbing a hill to get a look ahead, Lundin was barefoot as usual, and the jerk kept going on about how he thought it was stupid. Yet there he was unaffected and moving around with no problems.

The one of those shows I paid any attention to was ďSurvival ManĒ. Lee Stroud would go in somewhere by himself. No crew, just a deadline with a location for pickup, in case he didnít make it. He once cannibalized one of his cameras for a part he that he used for survival. He kept the conveniences to a minimum.

Duane
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 05, 2018, 07:41:08 PM
Not survival shows but there has been a series of shows about people living as if it were another year in the past, I think in several places, both city and rural. Sort of a living history kind of thing. But one participant said that he grew up living like that, so it wasn't that big a deal. But many of those things were not that long ago anyway. I lived for a while when I was still in high school that had no telephone and sometimes no running water. There was also no inside bathroom. That was when a once-a-week bath was a lot of trouble, especially in the winter. A separate little shed with its own stove was used for taking baths.

Those shows I mentioned include "The 1900 House," "Manor House," "Frontier House," "The Victorian Slum," and some others. Interesting concept. And aside from television, there are living history enthusiasts portraying just about everything.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on June 07, 2018, 02:11:07 AM
Quote from: Jbee
The muscles that are needed most in posture and associated with back pain are the same ones that are used and stretched while swinging in trees like an ape. There has been obvious and curative results from using hoops and swinging hand over hand.
Jbee, I learned long ago that any attempt to try and swing on a bar or a ring on a rope will usually result in a gravity experiment. :D  Make sure you have strengthened the muscles in your upper body before trying to do at home what you see on TV. There was a time way back when I could do that all day. Not now unless I prepare.
FYI to use.

Duane
I have very little of the pull up strength that I used to. One pull up is a challenge. I'm hanging pretty good though. The swinging motion should work out goo. What I'm doing with this is is using systems of muscles and miofacia and on and on that have been trained  in other ways, have been idyll and I am feeling some very strange things in very unusual places. I've been incremental, and sometimes lazy with this for months, but changes have been significant. Posture is changing, the way I carry myself, and new habits in muscle memory are developing, correctly. I just keep finding more and more imbalance in this body, but the goal is flexibility, lack of stiffness and inflammation and sustain my...uh...youth and associated activities, like naked hiking, naturism in nature, and exploration. Then there is the spiritual state.
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 07, 2018, 12:18:03 PM
When I was in the army, you had to go across "monkey bars" to get to the mess hall. I've even seen photos of soldiers in full web gear with a 25-pound machine gun slung on them doing that, too, but I've also seen videos of soldiers falling into the water. But there were no mud or water traps beneath any of the monkey bars we used.

Although it certainly isn't easy, it is also something you wouldn't regularly be doing as such. I don't think soldiers do much rappelling, either for that matter. But there is a trick, sort of, to the bars. Provided you can manage to maintain a hook-like hold with your hands, it's all in the swinging and how you do it. But humans will never be as good as monkeys, no matter what. Part of the problem with unusual physical activities for which we are not naturally made is remembering to use the right muscles. And that is true just for lifting a heavy weight.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on June 07, 2018, 04:48:52 PM
Laziness sits on the back of the couch and mocks me. Maintaining posture and muscle range needed to just move around normally takes more of my attention. I catch myself slouching. Thatís new. I was always walking erect and didnít shuffle my feet. Itís like a CPU in a computer, I have a limited number of cycles to allocate. ;D

I like your regimen, Jbee, incremental makes it manageable.

Duane
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 07, 2018, 06:32:00 PM
Some people have the idea that if they eat the right foods, avoid all the wrong foods, exercise moderately, do this, don't do that, they'll live forever. Well, that won't happen. Bodies age. Happens to all living things. So don't kill yourself thinking you will.

On the other hand, I've already mentioned that so-called primitive people seem to have more leisure time than "modern" people. We think we can have it all if we just work harder or smarter. Primitive people have what they need and let it go at that. I'm not sure they share our idea of recreation, either.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on June 07, 2018, 10:38:28 PM
We do have the bodies of apes that have adapted to a different posture. There is enough of the ape structure left in our functioning today, that we use. It is so that exercising these ape muscles, for example hand over hand climbing, or monkey bars ( a more ape-ish movement, but not that far from human needs) also work the same muscles that we need for back support, which (ask any chiropractor) connects to all other function in the body. We need good posture; we like good posture. During swinging, we are exercising systems that can't get the attention that they often need, from standing or sitting positions. We have more recent habits that are clogging up what our bodies have been used to since we began to be humanity and even before.

The monkey bar, hoop thing exercises the piraformis an inner muscle that is difficult to exercise, yet is so important. This video will show some others. I don't have my books here with me. The muscles on the side, wish I could remember these labels.. .https://playequip.com/the-benefits-of-monkey-bars/

What I do understand is that when I engage in these activities, I feel those muscles, they work, I'm aware of them. When I get back down my posture is changed and I move differently. My back is straight, not slouched. My shoulders are back, not curved into my chest. I have had to much academic exercise, bent over with books and such. I notice that my shoulders fit into my sockets in such a way that I can't tolerate hawk and trowel, or "wax on, wax off'" car polishing. But when they are trained to be lifted back, these pains magically go away. All of these things are interrelated and I can feel the difference, clear apparent stuff. Sore neck, sore back, lower back, lamenting my belly protrusion, can all be eliminated. My body has been trained to do things wrong and these particular muscles are integral to maintain health.

Primitive and poor people naturally squat...no chairs, accepted social behavior. Most of us can't squat with feet flat. Comfortable in a yoga sit, back up doesn't happen, but any kid can, any person used to this can, and they do it several times a day. It isn't old age, it is wrong living. Poeple in Okinawa live longer, but are flexible. They squat and have to get off of their tatamis, cushions on the floor, all day. The exercise is built in. I might change my furnishings.

So, we spend less time in trees these days. We don't use those important muscles enough to stand up straight, have less activity and as time passes our bodies bend, use it or lose it. It has caught up with me. My experiments have shown me just how much and where. I am correcting the problem. What I eat takes weight off to carry around, but I have to use the body properly, too.

I won't live forever, but the quality of my longer life will be as youthful as it gets. That means naked in nature, out where it is less touched, away from people who expect different, knowing the true wealth of just being alive in this world. Dancing with my girl, working my garden, just standing up gracefully shouldn't be a pain.

Then there is belief. There is an 85 year old Tarahumara guy who runs 26 miles on a rocky rough old trail to town. How? Because nobody ever told him he couldn't. Belief changes biology like nothing else. It changes lifespan, quality health, how you see life, and what you will get out of it.

There are modern diseases that generally get people before they reach a death from old age. These can be mostly eliminated. They can be just an outside chance. Heart, diabetes, lower back pain, on and on. When these are gone, it is just genetics, or an accident in the way. I have good genes. I have some limitations that I am expanding out of.

There a slippery spots out there, how we fall, if we fall, injuries will be different in a more youthful body.
 
Then, there is this modern shoe thing on the other thread.
Jbee

Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 07, 2018, 11:35:58 PM
I understand what you're saying but I doubt that many people, for one reason or another, would follow through with doing everything you mention to increase their life span or general health. For one thing, there are other lifestyle aspects that affect our health and well being that we mostly can't do anything about. Most of us get up and go to work everyday, for instance, and some kinds of work are on the unhealthy side. Of course, it isn't enough just to live a long time. Ironically, the ideal is to die healthy.

Based on life expectancy, however, certain things don't hold up to scrutiny. Japan has the longest life expectancy of all countries, if you believe Wikipedia. But Switzerland is number 2 and has a very different way of living. The US is way down the list at number 31, with most of western European countries ahead. But the difference between number 1 and number 31 is between 4 and 5 years (different lists give different numbers). Or, 80 versus 84 years. But in Japan, the difference between men and women is about 6 years. Most of the African countries crowd the bottom of the list.

Pravda shoes are supposed to be very good.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on June 08, 2018, 07:00:11 AM
https://www.bluezones.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Nat_Geo_LongevityF.pdf

I think that this started me off. I read the whole original article which talked about Okinawan daily movement  from tatamis, etc., too. Since that, I have been digging deeper. There is much more to this. There is more evidence, more creative and practical lifestyle changes. Simply people living longer by country isn't the information that we need. The groups of exceptions are important and their lifestyle and geographic commonalities give evidence and clues. Then there is medical research, and common sense. These blurps pop up and are more than genetics. The science and more, hold up to scrutiny, or often point to a fair lead in the mystery.

Then, there's those Uncle Louis, somebody's aunt people, who smoked and drank till he died at the ripe old age of....Those flukes happen. I have a friend that I am helping who is 93, eats crap as always, sits in front of TV for hours, drinks a bottle of wine each day, doesn't do his exercises and is on no major medications. But, I'm watching him deteriorate over years, the cause has to do with much of these things, obviously. On the other hand he's alive, he heals from wounds extra rapidly, he trudges stubbornly through life's obstacles, refuses to use a walker....

When someone retires, the new job is taking the extra time to do what used to come naturally, easily, but needs maintenance with age and the results of the abuses of things, like work. Quality of life can soar.

Then, there's that guy who did everything right a healthnut that dropped dead early. Exceptions happen and often it is stress from some old story that they have been telling themselves for decades. I'm not dying for an employer, or a trap of a lifestyle. Anymore than a black lung for mister Peabody, a broke back, a heart attack in the name of that buck, or some.

I've been blessed with potential and new knowledge. I'm making adjustments with a grateful for that attitude, beholding.

"If I get T-boned by a truck tomorrow?".... Maybe, but I'm playing the game for a long run. I'll play until it has lost its fun.
Jbee

 
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: nuduke on June 10, 2018, 02:25:15 PM

The more I read about the secrets of longevity the simpler it becomes.
What I mean by longevity is not about prolonging life span (heaven forbid!) but what I do seek is to help me in whatever span is left to me, to be mobile, compos mentis, socially active and able to enjoy life independent of support from others and with as little medical assistance as possible.


There are no secrets to it.  In no particular order the good things to do in retirement seem to be
No 1 is to exercise and be aware of maintaining balance and suppleness (I do yoga and a few other not very systematic bits of walking and working).
No 2 is to eat a balanced diet with plenty of veg and fish and lean on fats and carbohydrates.
No 3 is to keep your brain active with intellectual activity (not high brow necessarily - a crossword or a good thriller will do!), challenge your psyche with new experiences and pastimes, volunteering etc.
No 4 is to maintain social contacts, involvement and family relationships - definitely do not become isolated.
No 5 is to be naked as much as is practical!


I don't think there are any potions, lotions, lifestyles or gadgets that can do any better than that lot!
What do we think?  Agree?  Disagree?  Have I left out anything obvious?
John
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 10, 2018, 04:27:33 PM
The thing I agree with the most is that there are no secrets. Many people will try to tell you (in advertising) that they have a secret. You have to follow their diet and exercise plan and probably consume a lot of pills. I suppose some people do that, too.

I imagine, though, that the first object is to have a life worth living. It will probably include work if you aren't independently wealthy. But that's not a bad thing. I found working to be very rewarding from a social standpoint. I never felt like I was doing anything good for the world by any means but I was fortunate enough to associate with a lot of good people, including bosses. Not everyone was pleasant to be around, be assured, but most were people you wanted to be around all day long. However, I'm retired now and I don't miss work. Work usually comes with both rewards and stresses, as do most things. Cats, for example, can be wonderful companions but you still have to clean the litter box.

I also agree that physical activity is a Good Thing but I believe that doing some manual work, physical work with your hands, is even better, if that is possible. I am not so sure about social contacts, though. But my perspective is probably skewed. I actually study books about solitaries. That is, religious solitaries, and also hermits (hermits are not solitaries in the same sense). But almost no one is devoid of any social contact. But people who keep to themselves are looked upon with suspicion just about everywhere.

So are nudists.

A real nudist lifestyle is only possible in warmer climates or otherwise for only part of the year. Even then, circumstances must be exceptional to allow it. You have to have sufficient privacy (see above) or be surrounded by unusually tolerant and understanding neighbors. You must always be a good neighbor yourself, too, without qualification.

In the old book "Nudism in Modern Life," the author suggests that in the future, which I guess is right now, efficient heating systems will allow us to live without clothing all year round. That may have been a little optimistic but I guess it's possible, provided you're willing to pay the heating bills.

We do have our books here at home. I hope none of the shelves collapse and bury us. I visited my hometown a couple of weeks ago and saw all my remaining relatives while I was there. None had any books in sight, save for the Bible, undoubtedly the King James version. They all had big screen TVs and really, really comfortable sofas. The longer I stay away, the more different I become. Perhaps we all changed. But as far as outdoor nudity is concerned, I've always been like "this."

That's what I think.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: nuduke on June 10, 2018, 09:02:53 PM

I've added some comments in your original post, Blue Train


I imagine, though, that the first object is to have a life worth living.
Now that's a very profound and appropriate addition to my list!


However, I'm retired now and I don't miss work.
I was writing from the point of view of one who has also retired.  I don't miss work either but you are right, work does create essential social contact.  I do several work-like activities in retirement e.g. serve on local government.


Cats, for example, can be wonderful companions but you still have to clean the litter box.
I don't have pets because of the ties, responsibility, cost and chores they generate.  Cuddly and friendly though they may be that doesn't, for me, override the shackles and obligations of pet ownership

I also agree that physical activity is a Good Thing but I believe that doing some manual work, physical work with your hands, is even better,
Entirely agreed - that falls into my definition of exercise!


I am not so sure about social contacts, though. But my perspective is probably skewed. I actually study books about solitaries. That is, religious solitaries, and also hermits (hermits are not solitaries in the same sense).
I can't help bumping in to articles and other media about research that says that in older age our prior and current social activity makes a huge difference to mental health and the incidence of dementia. It doesn't mean there aren't exceptions or degrees of need.  Some people, as you say, may prefer being solitary and benefit from that more. 


But people who keep to themselves are looked upon with suspicion just about everywhere.
This is a great shame and is another example of man's inhumanity to man

So are nudists.
Too right - see above!

You must always be a good neighbor yourself, too, without qualification.
Also a general tenet for all and a basis of several religions (if not all!)


We do have our books here at home. I hope none of the shelves collapse and bury us. I visited my hometown a couple of weeks ago and saw all my remaining relatives while I was there. None had any books in sight
I think you are at an advantage - it is possible to have  all three - books, TV and sofa :)



I am curious as to where you live, Blue Train.  I'm assuming in the USA somewhere.  Is this something you would like to reveal?
John
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 10, 2018, 11:52:47 PM
It is said the ancient Romans preferred to lie on a couch instead of sitting in a chair whenever possible. The Greeks, too, I believe. That's how they had their drinking parties, the so called symposium. I think they are still popular, though room arrangements now differ. They were very popular where I went to school.

Thanks for you kind comments. I live in Northern Virginia, just 20 miles from the back door of the White House. My wife and I got married  just up the street from the White House, too, just off Washington Circle and around the corner from where she was born. Her father was born there, too. I'm from West Virginia and I graduated from WVU, a renowned drinking school, if nothing else. That was probably more than you wanted to know.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Bob Knows on June 11, 2018, 06:44:32 AM
It is said the ancient Romans preferred to lie on a couch instead of sitting in a chair whenever possible. The Greeks, too, I believe. That's how they had their drinking parties, the so called symposium. I think they are still popular, though room arrangements now differ. They were very popular where I went to school.


Good point.  Roman dining rooms typically had 3 couches on 3 sides of their table.  The 4th side was for the server.   It was called the "triclinium," which means 3 couch room a.k.a. Dining room.   
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on June 11, 2018, 06:33:19 PM

The more I read about the secrets of longevity the simpler it becomes.
What I mean by longevity is not about prolonging life span (heaven forbid!) but what I do seek is to help me in whatever span is left to me, to be mobile, compos mentis, socially active and able to enjoy life independent of support from others and with as little medical assistance as possible.


There are no secrets to it.  In no particular order the good things to do in retirement seem to be
No 1 is to exercise and be aware of maintaining balance and suppleness (I do yoga and a few other not very systematic bits of walking and working).
No 2 is to eat a balanced diet with plenty of veg and fish and lean on fats and carbohydrates.
No 3 is to keep your brain active with intellectual activity (not high brow necessarily - a crossword or a good thriller will do!), challenge your psyche with new experiences and pastimes, volunteering etc.
No 4 is to maintain social contacts, involvement and family relationships - definitely do not become isolated.
No 5 is to be naked as much as is practical!


I don't think there are any potions, lotions, lifestyles or gadgets that can do any better than that lot!
What do we think?  Agree?  Disagree?  Have I left out anything obvious?
John
Eliminate continuing stressors.

These are very simplified. Options, intensities and program implementations may vary. For example, a dysfunctional family might be replaced, or different food options for different bodies.

National Geo has a "nine" points, from the commonalities inherent in several studied blue spots. Commonly, American nutrition is devastated by processing, cooking, and these things that look good, last and are consistent to sell and store, but taste like cardboard or garden grass.
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 11, 2018, 07:20:56 PM
Never having eaten either cardboard or grass, I wouldn't know. But replacing your family?
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Bob Knows on June 11, 2018, 09:09:16 PM
A couple of years ago I watched a TV documentary about science and longevity.   

A big part of the documentary was filmed at a research institute that focused on accurate data about diet, life style, habits, and lifespan.  The documentary people pretty much talked about all the suggestions listed above and some more.  When they got all through reviewing the science and data they asked the research people who lived the research what they did personally to live longer. 

Researchers on longevity science said that there are really only 2 important factors that can be done to have a high probability of living longer. 

1.  Eating a near starvation diet.  That results in being very thin.  It's related to stories of impoverished peasants who live 100 years or more.  There is good data to suggest that its the starvation, not the brown rice, Asian herbs, or avoidance of red meat that causes long life.   None of the researchers were willing to live on near starvation diets even if it would have a high probability to extend their lives.

2.  Drinking alcohol and particularly red wine.   Lots of research shows that people who drink red wine in moderation live up to 25% longer than those who don't, even when the rest of their diet is loaded with all the fats and "bad" foods so often criticized.  Their research had not determined what specifically was in the wine that caused long life, but all the researchers had adopted moderate wine drinking as their best option for living long lives. 

Since that documentary was filmed there have been more research studies that affirm the longevity results of moderate wine (or alcohol)  consumption. 

So I'm going with the science.  I'm go with the research team.  I follow their lead and have a glass (or 2) of red wine with dinner each day. 

So far, I'm older than my father or grandfather were when they died. 

I see a lot of superstitious stuff about diets and other factors.  Thousands of books have been published touting every possible "cure" and diet.  Very little of it is based in real longevity science.  Much of it is marketing of "health foods."  I'm not convinced. 
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 11, 2018, 10:23:28 PM
You're probably right. All of those things come from true believers--and marketing departments.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: nuduke on June 11, 2018, 11:48:12 PM

Pardon me for angling off on a dogleg but Bob wrote:
Quote
Roman dining rooms typically had 3 couches on 3 sides of their table.  The 4th side was for the server.   It was called the "triclinium," which means 3 couch room[/q]

I've known that word since I did Latin at school in the 60s and helped my son learn it too when he did Latin at school and never known the derivation.  I was delighted to acquire that fact. They say you learn something new every day and that was today's crop (actually the second thing I learned!). Thank you so much for that, Bob - you've made an old man very happy! :D
John
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 12, 2018, 01:57:53 AM
There is a theory, probably weak, that the Last Supper was in such a form.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on June 12, 2018, 03:39:44 AM
I do a recommended starvation, often. I fast around three times a year for a various amounts of time. There is a spiritual component in there, too. I don't eat until noon often and daily, I have a smoothie in the morning, until afternoon. It keeps me cleaned out on many ways. There is a positive difference, which points to healthier benefits and longevity. No exact prescription. I make sure that  get strong nutrition. Dr. Gabriel Cousins is my guide on this. I've read some of the referenced research connected with this theory, with his lead. As hunter gatherers, we would have less regularity. 
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Peter S on June 12, 2018, 06:10:24 AM
Itís all in the genes. For a long and healthy life, choose your parents wisely.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Bob Knows on June 12, 2018, 03:14:17 PM
I do a recommended starvation, often. I fast around three times a year for a various amounts of time. There is a spiritual component in there, too. I don't eat until noon often and daily, I have a smoothie in the morning, until afternoon. It keeps me cleaned out on many ways. There is a positive difference, which points to healthier benefits and longevity. No exact prescription. I make sure that  get strong nutrition. Dr. Gabriel Cousins is my guide on this. I've read some of the referenced research connected with this theory, with his lead. As hunter gatherers, we would have less regularity. 
Jbee

A while ago there was a magazine called "Prevention" that published much of the same advice about nutrition, healthy living, exercise, etc.   One night the publisher was on late night television explaining to the host how his natural and healthy lifestyle was going to allow him to live a lot longer than the TV host.  It may have been the Dick Cavett show which played opposite of "Tonight." (It has been a while)  Late night TV was still being done live and in front of a studio audience.  The Prevention Magazine publisher had just finished his explanation of ways to live long by leading a healthy life style when he suffered a massive heart attack and fell over dead on the stage.  After some seconds of stunned silence they found that there was a doctor in the audience, but there was nothing that could be done to save him. 

This story shows that we just never know.  Life is a risk.  Live each and every day as if it is our last.  Suck all the pleasure out of life while we can.  There are no promises of tomorrow.  Carpe Diem!
 
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on June 12, 2018, 07:47:17 PM
I've got the good genes. But it isn't all genes. I had a friend who came from that Russian area where people will live 125 years. He abused his body, obese, everything and dropped dead in his kitchen with heart attack at just eighty-five. (WHat's 'ol Jbee gettin' at???) It is more to optimize a sense of health and youthful dexterity, to ward off the diseases that get to people in a modern age.

I lived most of my life on edge, as you say Bob, smoking two packs of Camel regulars, drinking day and night, fun drugs, risk taking and every so often someone sees me from back in those days and says how they can't believe that I'm still alive. I'm usually healthier than them, but I know that it was catching up with me. A change had to happen, and now I feel and function so much better. With the age thing, I have to take time out and work at it harder, but life quality is so very much better.
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on June 13, 2018, 06:51:22 AM
We have books. We have books, everywhere. Every room in the house has books except the laundry and bath rooms. I donít understand why people donít like books. Also, I probably have as many albums as I do books. Albums take up less space though.

I have mentioned before that I donít shop. I buy. I know what I want and when I go into a store I get that, buy it and leave. Books and records? No way. Thatís the only thing I do shop for. I can spend hours in a used book or record shop. I had a used books/records shop in Houston I frequented. It was in an old supermarket down in the Montrose district. Probably 15-20,000 sq.ft. of used books and records.
Browsing. Bliss! :)

Duane

P.S. Maps. I love maps too.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on June 13, 2018, 06:51:51 AM
Wine helps to improve digestion, especially red wine. It has antioxidants in it. Good to help lower cholesterol.

Itís like hearing those public service announcements where they interview that 185 yr. old lady in France that has had a cigarette and a glass of red wine everyday of her life. I agree with pjcomp, itís probably genetic. Some people can do it, some canít.

Duane
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on June 13, 2018, 06:52:12 AM
Fasting is a form of meditation. It keep you focused you on what you have decided to concentrate on.

Duane
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 13, 2018, 12:40:37 PM
Alas! There are few used bookstores anymore. Even the old one at the beach (Outer Banks of N.C.) is gone. Even all the army surplus stores are gone, too, which is even worse.

I barely understand fasting (the point, that is, not what it is). But I also don't understand prayer, meditation and a whole bunch of other things, including how I can sit here at the kitchen counter, fueled by coffee, and do this and a so-called laptop computer. Works better on a table anyway.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: John P on June 13, 2018, 09:22:57 PM
Now I'm thinking of this old cartoon, by Charles Addams (of Addams Family fame), from the New Yorker in the 1970s some time.

The caption's a little difficult to see (if you have middle-aged eyes, ha ha). It says "To...hell...with...yogurt".

(https://i.imgur.com/s1NB60C.jpg)

Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on June 14, 2018, 01:49:03 AM
There are still a couple of used book shops here. They are fewer and smaller. The ones still around tend to be older, established and well known. The ďAmber UnicornĒ is one that was old and here when I arrived 32 years ago.

Still, Alive and Kickiní.

The fast, BT, is to remind you to think, meditate or concentrate on whatever you are focused on. Every time you notice that you are hungry, it reminds you why you are doing that. Itís a personal activity equivalent of wearing a religious token. A cross or other symbol, for instance. Although it doesnít have to be religious in nature.

Also, not everyone that intentionally thinks on an issue or problem needs to meditate or fast. I can sit and think on a problem or even do it while Iím busy with something else. Iíve never fasted, but I might find it helpful.

Who knows?

Duane
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on June 14, 2018, 01:49:42 AM
I like that one, John!
Anytime The Addams Family is mentioned, I laugh! I always remember in one of the shows, the camera switched to Lurch (Ted Cassidy), leaning out of the top window on the cupola with what appeared to be a large butterfly net.

He looks directly at he camera and says, ďPterodactyls!Ē
Of course! ;D

Duane
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Bob Knows on June 14, 2018, 02:23:02 AM
Mention of the Addams Family and nudism together reminds me of my naked trip to the cemetery.   Yes, I know it has only one "d".  But all the same....

(http://photos.bradkemp.com/6atcemetery.jpg)
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: nuduke on June 25, 2018, 12:19:59 AM

Quote
We have books. We have books, everywhere. Every room in the house has books except the laundry and bath rooms. I donít understand why people donít like books.

We used to have rooms full of books and decided to slim down our 'library' when we moved house in 2015.  Mrs N and I reflected why we both considered the collecting of books to be such a desirable object.  It dawned upon me that the accumulation of books is a middle class affectation that suggests you are 'well read' i.e. the number of books is in direct proportion to how intelligent and knowledgeable you are!  People with books are the people to know, perhaps.  We liked the message that we were a bit academic.
Mrs N had to agree that for us this was probably true and we both reacted against the shallowness of that.
This realisation spurred us on to more ruthless editing of the book collection.  Nevertheless it was surprising how many books did mean something more to us than just the information or entertainment they contained or their 'lifestyle' value.  So many books carried a connection to some part of life or an assortment of memories.  I kept a couple of children's books that my kids had enjoyed me reading to them.  Those books had happy times with the kids adsorbed into the pages and reminded me of it very strongly.  I kept my text books from my A Level metalwork because that was a nice time in my life and I loved doing the metalwork.  No harm in a few books after all provided you are not keeping them for appearances alone.  We chucked out or gave away about 2/3 of the books and felt cleansed and happier without them.  Our collection continues once again to increase, however!
John
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on June 25, 2018, 01:10:24 AM
I visited relatives in southern West Virginia a few weeks ago. Nary a book in sight.

We have too many books and too much other stuff, too. I keep telling my wife that if we ever move, we need a place with a barn.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on June 25, 2018, 03:09:14 AM
Yea Nuduke, I'm going through that now. I have mostly non-fiction spanning interests a over decades. They are reference materials for me. Many are marked with highlighter. I can't keep all of that information locked up in drawers in my brain. As it is needed, it tends to come back, but much has to do with applying old thought and concepts to new. I can go back to nearly any of these books and run through the highlighted areas where I studied before and long forgotten wheels begin to turn and I recall. Everybody forgets incredible amounts of info or tends to rearrange the reality of the time. I also often need to cite and get a more perfect recall. So, unless I intend to never again drop into some topic, I keep my reference. I've also got a less well organized library on my hard-drive and backup.

I love books, but more and more often, I'm finding easier access to the information on the internet. Still, More in-depth recall is best. Internet can not replace well read study.

I have kid books, too, within those are hopes for relived and tradition to pass on to grandchildren. I'm going to loose a lot of weight with those text books that were kinda irrelevant, but required, when I got my degrees.

Then, there's those that you pick up once in a while one afternoon every several years, like that Ferrarri photo book that once gave me an erection. ::)

So, what about all of these National Geographics? What about those old 1948 Britannica that show how ignorant we once were, but also give scholarly detail which is less and less common? 

Then, there's my collection of "N" Magazine, "Clothed with the Sun", going back to the mid-eighties, when I became a member. There is amazing scholarly nude information in those older issues edited by Lee Bauxendal. (spelled that wrong)

Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on June 26, 2018, 07:09:34 AM
We periodically do winnowing of our books. Every time we do it, we donate them to the local library. If I donít want them, I give them to those that can. I have books I bought over 30 yrs. ago and have got rid of books I bought last year.

If I still had every book I ever bought, I would need a 3 story house. Many books I keep from years ago simply for the memory of the 1st read. Many I have read multiple times. We also have several, ďto read stacksĒ. My eldest sister taught me to read before I ever began school. I had a couple of teachers in grade school that were Ďput out Ď because they had to find more challenging reading for me.

My favorite bookstore ever, ďThe Tattered CoverĒ, in Denver, Colorado. Three stories and a basement of nothing but bookstore. One whole floor of nothing but history. Heaven! Although I have yet to read and finish a biography, theyíre too self-centered. ;D

ďOutside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.Ē - Groucho Marx

Duane
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: rrfalcon on June 30, 2018, 02:39:32 PM
We just moved, and that included over 60 boxes of books. Lots of science fiction/fantasy, lots of history, and lots of reference works for my main interests (aviation, mainly). Before our next move, lots of these are going to go away. Some will be donated to the local library, some to a couple of museums that I support, and some to sell to used book stores.

After years of keeping magazines for future reference, I've stopped doing that. Our library before the move had a free magazine rack out back, so I just dropped off the magazines there when I finished reading them.  I found a school teacher who was happy to take a few decades of National Geographics, and a lot of magazines just went into the trash/recycling.  Funny thing about the back issues of "N", though - when I put them on the library's free magazine rack, they disappeared within a couple of hours.  The flying and general interest magazines stayed around for a couple of days or more.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Bob Knows on June 30, 2018, 05:53:48 PM
Probably a lot of people are interested in nudism but don't know where to find reading materials.   The Internet has made that less difficult than it was 40 years ago, but N magazine will still be popular and sought after.   They probably don't have that sort of nudist information on their regular library magazine shelves.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on June 30, 2018, 10:52:01 PM
I saw it at Barnes and Noble once.
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on July 02, 2018, 12:20:45 AM
I never have but I'm probably not in there the day it comes in. The only place I've found "N" magazine is in a hole-in-the-way newsstand, which unfortunately puts it in the back room with the skin magazines. It's hard to find a copy. They sometimes have a Canadian nudist magazine, which is half in French. They've also had very occasionally, not recently, another nudist magazine, name totally forgotten, that is more about travel.

I still think it's funny to see advertisements for clothing-optional resorts in magazines in the waiting room in doctor's offices. 
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on July 02, 2018, 05:10:31 PM
If anyone is interested, the "N" magazine can be ordered through the Naturist Society online: http://www.naturistsociety.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=NS&Category_Code=NTPB

This one might interest nude hikers in particular:
http://www.naturistsociety.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=NS&Product_Code=36_4NNMG&Category_Code=NTPB

They can be purchased separately at like $10 plus shipping, or four issues with membership.
Jbee



Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: nuduke on July 03, 2018, 02:32:28 PM

Quote
What about those old 1948 Britannica that show how ignorant we once were
That sums up a dilemma that we had with some books - such as a young peoples encyclopaedia from the 1930s that my grandfather gave me and that I learned many things from in boyhood.  Its value today was as per your Britannica - of it's quaint old fashioned set of knowledge and what it never mentioned because it wasn't known at the time and a patina of nostalgia.  That value, shall we call it historical, tempted us to keep some of these books but the 10 year rule (if you haven't read it for 10 years then you don't actually need it) and the desire to slim down our possessions in general led us to be ruthless and take them to the charity shop.  Hopefully some other youngster will be reading my encyclopaedia and maybe even updating their knowledge of a particular entry with reference to the great encyclopaedia in the sky i.e. Wikipedia!
There have been one or two instances in the not quite 3 years since that book cull that I have wanted to refer to a book we no longer have.  But they were passing whims.  Life has not really been enfeebled by the lack of a huge library at home!  We still fill 2 walls of one room and about another 8 feet floor to ceiling elsewhere!
John
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on July 03, 2018, 03:51:46 PM
If you want to learn something new, read an old book.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on July 03, 2018, 08:18:17 PM
Britannica has an article about race. It's outrageous!. There are many pages like that, old perspective. It is importance, when looking at a people, or a person from history, to understand that they are just doing their best with what they have and what they know. I have a wholly/holy racist KKK book from way way back, too. It is these little gems that are fascinating. As age progresses and free time increases, or way off when life gets more limited, I could hold off in my home and entertain myself for years. That's when these books will be handy. I'd like to read Shogun again and the classics that are in my old Humanities texts from my first year of college. Then there's the reference.

There is the internet problem where history will be revised, crappy unreliable information will become more and more, like garbage in the street to step over and then you get your feet mucked up. I can't help but to compare that to my copy of "Fahrenheit 451", and "1984". Things are getting lost, covered up, sources with depth are disappearing and unavailable. Local libraries don't have stacks of old worn out books. If they are not being checked out, they disappear. To an extent, I've got to rely on myself. Things will be forgotten, sitting in a cloudy blurr somewhere in one of those drawers in my mind. Old references provide clarity to a hardwired human brain that tends to change the past. Did Reagun actually win the cold war with a hard-line and change the economics for the better, slashing inflation? Did Bush make a mistake about Iraq, or lie? The evidence is disappearing. "A People's History of the United States" is banned in schools in Arizona. Gotta rely on oneself.

I have a 91 year old friend. He doesn't know how old he is, or generally what day it is. His home of decades is wall to wall mostly cool books. He can pick up a book and zero in. He watches TV and has "bad" days. He can remember with a book in hand. It is like remembering an old pathway. The senility goes away. He loves spending time with the read that grasps his attention and will spend hours in it. What am I throwing away?

This is difficult. I have always been selective about what I keep, so to me it is all good keeper stuff. If I don't use something for ten years, maybe. But a book may lie around for decades, but not lose value. On the other hand, my son super stubbed his toe and has a mild cast. He needs a stick to walk. Last night, I lent him my solid oak, brass handled walking stick, that I hadn't used in ten years. He would get it eventually anyway.

Then, there is this book that I found this morning, "Brit-think/Ameri-think: A Transatlantic Survival Guide. (1986)!
Ameri; Summer, when you turn on the air conditioner. Brit: Summer, the rain gets warmer.
Ameri:drought is when crops die, animals in danger, water reserves down, dust bowl time, Brit: two consecutive days without downpour.
Ameri:..
...interesting. Do Brits eat pie crust that comes out still white and mushy?
Jbee

 
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on July 03, 2018, 09:37:48 PM
While opinions change or don't, what will also change is relevance and also as you mention, perspective. Today, one way that WWII is often seen is from the perspective of old and very old veterans. We forget much of the what and the why but we are conscious of the fact that those who fought the war are quickly disappearing. Soon that will also be true of Vietnam. Korea is already practically ancient history. One way to see this is to go to the library and to see the selection of books. Basically I think it is a case of current events becoming (over time) ancient history. The biggest thing that is lost in the process is context. Unfortunately, the context is subject of manipulation from the beginning. Moreover, our values will have changed over the years, too.

I've heard of Brit-think, Ameri-think but never read it. But here's a little something that illustrates perspective pretty well:

To a foreigner, a Yankee is an American.
To an American, a Yankee is a Northerner.
To Northerners, a Yankee is an Easterner.
To an Easterner, a Yankee is an New Englander.
To a New Englander, a Yankee is someone from Vermont.
But to someone from Vermont, a Yankee is someone who eats pie for breakfast.

I used to think it was someone from Maine.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on July 03, 2018, 10:20:35 PM
Yea, then there is my copy of Tom Browkow's "The Greatest Generation," that I sat reading for hours to my dad that last day as he passed on. I watched him reminisce and saw pride and satisfaction, and so much more on his face, as he looked back on life and considered it.

Some books are of an era, they were a part of a significant memory. Some made changes in me, shaped me. I'll hold on to those, too. They are cherished like old photos. They are roots and mementos. There is a box of old period magazines and the things that I wrote, maybe another younger me with a different outlook, or sometimes better wisdom, or I'm shocked at how my values haven't changed. A personal library is all about me, what I was, what I am, a reflection of life. I tend to be here now, these days, but there is that Jon that has been and I find him very interesting, personally and he is there in those books.

So, does anybody ever clear out their computer stuff, the files the folders, the clutter? I now have more music than I could ever listen to. It's another personal library.

Then, I have my website. DF and I can look back at our adventures in detail. Years from now, if nothing else, we have a wonderful scrap book. We know that life isn't wasted and significance is relative to how you are guided.
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Bob Knows on July 04, 2018, 01:53:02 AM

I've heard of Brit-think, Ameri-think but never read it. But here's a little something that illustrates perspective pretty well:

To a foreigner, a Yankee is an American.
To an American, a Yankee is a Northerner.
To Northerners, a Yankee is an Easterner.
To an Easterner, a Yankee is an New Englander.
To a New Englander, a Yankee is someone from Vermont.
But to someone from Vermont, a Yankee is someone who eats pie for breakfast.

I used to think it was someone from Maine.


To a Westerner, a Yankee is a baseball team from NYC. 


Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on July 04, 2018, 07:23:44 AM
The term was used to denigrate by British establishment back during the times of the revolution. That is according to something that I read years ago when looking at "yankee doodle" the song. Don't know about the source, but this etymology from Merriam-Webster is a good source:


"Did You Know?

Many etymologies have been proposed for Yankee, but its origin is still uncertain. What we do know is that in its earliest recorded use Yankee was a pejorative term for American colonials used by the British military. The first evidence we have is in a letter written in 1758 by British General James Wolfe, who had a very low opinion of the New England troops assigned to him. We also have a report of British troops using the term to abuse citizens of Boston. In 1775, however, after the battles of Lexington and Concord had shown the colonials that they could stand up to British regulars, Yankee became suddenly respectable and the colonials adopted the British pejorative in defiance. Ever since then, a derisive and a respectable use of Yankee have existed side by side."

So, it is a baseball team and on until Jimmy Cagney sang it, patriotic. Happy Fourth of July.
Jbee
 
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Peter S on July 04, 2018, 08:33:11 AM
Respectable sobriquets often begin life as derogatory. In 1914 the Kaiser supposedly described the British Expeditionary Force as ďa contemptible little armyĒ - thereafter it was a matter of great pride to be an ďOld ContemptibleĒ.

This topic drift also reminds me of the old days when Irish jokes were de rigeur. Someone wondered what the Irish joked about, and apparently the Irish version of the Irish joke made people from County Kerry the fall guy.

And what do rocket scientists regard as tough when the rest of us talk about rocket science? Thermo-dynamics, apparently.

What you see always depends on where you stand.

Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on July 04, 2018, 01:01:32 PM

To a Westerner, a Yankee is a baseball team from NYC.
[/quote]

To a New Yorker, upstate New York means Westchester County.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: John P on July 04, 2018, 04:10:21 PM
And Scandinavians like to dump on Norwegians.

"Four Scandinavians went into business together. The Finn designed it, the Swede made it, the Dane sold it, and the Norwegian complained about it."
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Bob Knows on July 04, 2018, 05:58:29 PM
Respectable sobriquets often begin life as derogatory.


A "basket of Deplorables" turned the last US Presidential election.   The "Deplorables" became a powerful political force.   Just last month President Trump suggested a re-branding, calling them "winners" or some such, but it didn't take. 



Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on July 05, 2018, 06:13:27 AM
I was going to use that example. I don't believe that it turned the election, but from my experience it got the "deplorables," those who hated Hilary in the first place, pretty feisty on the internet social media. Its a reciprocating thing. Hilary was just speaking about something that her political base was already thinking. From that side's perspective the shit pile just got bigger.

Got another nasty election this year.   
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: nuduke on July 15, 2018, 05:01:54 PM

A couple of you make the point very clearly that a book contains more than just the information or story that's written on its pages.  The historian can read valuable information about attitudes, mores, social norms etc., of the time the book was written.  Hence your racist Britannica, Jbee - it was perfectly ok for those times to describe other races in ways we find repugnant today.  So yes.  Unequivocally books are worth keeping as they add many layers of understanding over and above contemporary versions of the same material.  And indeed contemporary books such as Britannica, will speak volumes about our time, views, attitudes and feelings.  But...do I have to be this repository?  No.  My scholarship will not run ever to the interpretation of old texts and as I opined earlier, the very rare possibility of a glorious new finding or old remembrance from an old book is not sufficient reason to let the books take over!  If I really want to get something back, there's always the British Library!

Quote
Years from now, if nothing else, we have a wonderful scrap book.
That's so true, jbee.  If the internet and photo formats last long enough you have a glorious archive of desert adventures to romp around when perhaps your body is a bit less able to do so.  Enviable both from the point of view of having the archive of achievements made, of the effort and application to assemble the blog in the first place but also from the effort and enjoyment of the trips themselves over many years and, I ween, many to come :)
John
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on September 11, 2018, 02:28:38 AM
Quote from: Nuduke
. . contemporary books such as Britannica, will speak volumes about our time, views, attitudes and feelings.  But...do I have to be this repository?  No.
I agree, John. Which is why, I always donate my book discards to the library or to a used book store. I never throw anything away.

Duane
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on September 13, 2018, 01:19:36 PM
If you want to learn something new, read an old book.

And speaking of calling names, Wellington called his soldiers the "scum of the earth." Supposedly.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on September 14, 2018, 01:57:20 AM
Hope that he meant that in a good way....

On the other hand, I wonder what they called officers such as he?
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: John P on September 14, 2018, 04:47:05 AM
What I was told Wellington said was "I don't know what effect these men will have on the enemy, but by God, they terrify me!"
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: Peter S on September 14, 2018, 01:39:28 PM
He did at one point also call them the "scum of the earth", relating to the fact that many were in the army to avoid jail and had a reputation for getting extremely drunk as often as possible. Remember the class system was in full flow at the time and those at the top looked down from a great height on those at the bottom.

Wellington's troops, however, did hold him in high regard as he was a winning general (always good to be on the winning side) and he had a reputation for looking after his men. He was variously known as Old Nosey (for his prominent features), and Old various-other-titles, the preceding "Old" almost invariably indicating a term of endearment/respect.

Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on September 14, 2018, 03:10:50 PM
I thought we still had the same system.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on September 14, 2018, 08:04:53 PM
 I'd say only from the perspective of those in the lofty heights. The smart ones in the loft are paying to dupe a significant number of those below subtly, to create loftier heights for themselves.

I'd call that a resurgence of the older lofty top dog system, but now a less obvious system. Of course nothing much has changed in the rest of the world, same ol' same ol' oligarchy.

The Victorian attitudes about covering up seem to have taken a dive, hopefully still diving deeper.
Jus' sayin', hope that ya'll agree, or at least have some idea what I'm talking about. ;D
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on September 14, 2018, 08:23:21 PM
Victoria wasn't an American.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on September 15, 2018, 06:44:00 PM
She sure had a huge effect on American attitudes, mores and morality. They respected and emanated her. Aspiring to her warped values was identified with upward social mobility. Books and guidelines were written telling people how to behave. She wasn't American, America was certainly Victorian, which was a cultural thing, too, ie, architecture...not to mention Emily Post.

Uptight by definition. Furnishings, dress, which eating utensil, in which mit, held so so, and covered from head to toe.
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on September 15, 2018, 08:24:30 PM
Sort of but not quite. Most of that stuff only applied to the upper classes to begin with. Just like now, the lower classes didn't care and didn't matter. Emily and Amy were aimed at those who were on the way up or otherwise had social asperations. I wonder what the equivalents were in the U.K., where they don't hold the fork in the same hand as we do.

They weren't always covered head to toe and at least one social commentator, probably Mark Twain, remarked on the low, off-the-shoulder dresses women wore in the evening. That is, those women whose social calendar included evening functions. Men still cover themselves head to toe for evening functions but who looks at the men?
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on September 15, 2018, 08:40:39 PM
It applied to my mother born 1920, the daughter of a railroad maintenance yard foreman and her relatives Kansas farmers mostly. It applied to any ranking officer. It applied to the middle clss that I knew.

Head to toe was a Victorian period thing. I can show you books and old catalogs. The shoulder thing was all that was shown in the south.

NAh, it was important for more than the rich, but not so much in the so called lower classes, unless they wanted to know social upward mobility. When in Europe, do as the Europeans do. Change the fork and knife set up.
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: JOhnGw on September 16, 2018, 03:18:31 PM
I wonder where I stand on all this - carefully laying the dinner table to the "correct" knife, fork, spoon and drinking glasses set-up and then dining totally naked.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: BlueTrain on September 16, 2018, 05:33:46 PM
The 1920s were still in the Victorian era, what with the bobbed hair, the short skirts, the soft collars and no more corsets? My grandmother, born 1879, still had a boned corset, long hair and long skirts.
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: eyesup on September 16, 2018, 09:17:41 PM
I suppose, JOhn that if others are dressed the same you would meet the accepted dress code!

Duane
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on September 17, 2018, 12:02:36 AM
I wonder where I stand on all this - carefully laying the dinner table to the "correct" knife, fork, spoon and drinking glasses set-up and then dining totally naked.
;D I think that you would stand with me. I find myself doing the same thing when I'm giving dinner at the table. There is a practicality and familiarity to the arrangement. Jus' cause I ain't got no clothes, don't mean I ain't got no class!
Jbee
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: nuduke on September 18, 2018, 12:33:44 PM

Absolutely, JOhn!
Just be cause we are naked does not mean we are savages or uncivilised!
John
Title: Re: Whetstone Weekend: Part III Oaks in the Forest
Post by: jbeegoode on September 18, 2018, 04:57:38 PM
I would consider myself more civil, open and peaceful as a naked. It was after all often the clothed zealots of greed and pride who subdued and enslaved the local and tribal. The nudes are often more cultured...just look to Grecian art... ;) The naked sadhus are most holy and thoroughly cultured in ritual and manner.
Jbee