Free Range Naturism

Naturism => General Naturism Discussion => Topic started by: Bob Knows on June 15, 2018, 03:53:07 PM

Title: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: Bob Knows on June 15, 2018, 03:53:07 PM
Its time to DEMAND freedom from compulsory clothing.

Compulsory clothing is a way the masters train, CONTROL, and own the slaves. A free person owns his body. A slave's body is controlled by the master.

We need to FIGHT them every way we can and every place we can. Throw off the forced clothing. Go FREE and naked and be seen naked as a FREE man.

(http://photos.bradkemp.com/13%20naked%20stonehenge.jpg)
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: BlueTrain on June 16, 2018, 12:15:52 PM
Your goal is admirable but your argument is weak. In the days when there was still slavery (and in some states there were more slaves than free), who do you think fretted about their clothes? Nobody cared what the slaves wore.

Of course, you could mean "slave to fashion," but I imagine you've overcome that constraint. Ignoring those silly dress codes in high school (mostly non-existent where I live, judging how the girls dress), the majority of laws about clothing concerned themselves with clothing you weren't allowed to wear, because they were above your station.
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: jbeegoode on June 20, 2018, 09:39:32 AM
Uniforms are abuse, demeaning and control. They are for slaves, too.

Mandatory clothing is a uniformity. Clothing keeps us from our nature, isolates us from our world and diminishes our humanity. It takes our true identity away and creates new artificial identities. Some of these identities are demeaning and controlled, creating conformists identifying with the dominate culture. It is a way of dominating us. Who dominates us? The owners, the exploiters. Fascism is slavery. Clothing is a prison.

Right arm Bob!

American slaves wore work clothes and the better favored, who worked in the house, like the nannys were dressed up, better than the field hands. Slave bodies were often decorated with clothing to make everything look prosperous.
Jbee
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: BlueTrain on June 20, 2018, 11:04:42 AM
That's nonsense. We all wear uniforms, in a sense. We wear mostly what other people wear and young people (which we were at one time) are very careful to wear what our friends wear. It wasn't what the fashion world necessarily said to wear, either, just what was popular. Real uniforms make deciding what to wear unnecessary. They also give you a strong sense of pride and belonging to an organization and something big. But judging from the comments on the "factory farmed" section, you don't think like that. Even the entire forum is devoted to not belonging to anything--except the forum. You are straining to make an argument and I don't buy a single word of it. We are the culture.

Decorated bodies to look prosperous? When I was in public school, all the clothes I had hung on the back of a door. I wore clothes to school that had holes in them. We were anything but prosperous and I was painfully conscious of it. So you can take your abuse, control and domination and hang it on the back of your door, too.

Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: Bob Knows on June 20, 2018, 02:43:15 PM
Decorated bodies to look prosperous? When I was in public school, all the clothes I had hung on the back of a door. I wore clothes to school that had holes in them. We were anything but prosperous and I was painfully conscious of it. So you can take your abuse, control and domination and hang it on the back of your door, too.


Yes, the training and pressure to conform is pushed hard at schools.  Many children end up with ill fitting, worn out, or non-conforming clothing and become "painfully conscious" of not having the demanded uniform appearance.  That kind of pressure and criticism is how the masses are trained to obey.  Schools are all about obedience training.  The readin' writin' and 'rithmatic are only mind candy to divert attentions while conformity and obedience to authority is being practiced day after day, hour after hour. 

We become slaves who aren't even allowed to control our own bodies, and we come to believe that obedience to Master is "freedom." 

Bob
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: BlueTrain on June 20, 2018, 04:35:58 PM
You argument is unconvincing. There was no training to obey, even at school. It is true that the 1950s were conformist (rather than conservative). It was the late 60s and early 70s when people went out of their way to be non-conformist, wearing ragged clothes, long unkempt hair and protesting everything. You're starting to sound like an anarchist that believes we don't have enough lawbreaking and rebellion in society, trying as best as you can to project your own idea of obedience on others. But like I say, you non-conformists are all alike.
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: Bob Knows on June 20, 2018, 05:51:16 PM
You argument is unconvincing. There was no training to obey, even at school. It is true that the 1950s were conformist (rather than conservative). It was the late 60s and early 70s when people went out of their way to be non-conformist, wearing ragged clothes, long unkempt hair and protesting everything. You're starting to sound like an anarchist that believes we don't have enough lawbreaking and rebellion in society, trying as best as you can to project your own idea of obedience on others. But like I say, you non-conformists are all alike.

Yes, sit and stand when told to do so.  Move when the bell rings no matter what you were thinking about.  Obedience to authority is repeated day after day.  And, any child who won't obey is drugged into submission.   They use drugs instead of paddles now. 
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: John P on June 20, 2018, 07:02:09 PM
BlueTrain, you seem to be in a bad mood today. It may be true that some people here like to deliver manifestos about how we're all oppressed and how they claim to be rebels, and you can take them seriously or not (most of us live pretty comfortable lives, and don't plan to change). Maybe you're still remembering growing up poor, and having that show in your clothes for everyone to see, and if so I'm sorry, but that was a long time ago. We have to think about what we're going to do now--get our clothes off and go for a swim, or raise rebellion. Maybe first one, then the other.

Speaking of uniforms, I've always thought it was interesting how much more we men willingly dress in constrained ways, versus what we allow and expect from women. That's especially true in summer, when you can see it on every street! Yet when naturists think about the differences, all they can come up with is "topfree rights" for women. It wouldn't be about boobs, would it? No, surely not.

A couple of illustrations. As a reminiscence about the late Barbara Cartland, the incredibly prolific author of incredibly bad novels, an interviewer recalled asking her about some of her plots. He pointed out that she was very fond of heroines dashing across windy moors in torn nightgowns, and asked if she would ever put a man in such a situation. And she said "Certainly not! A man is most attractive fully dressed, preferably in uniform."

And then there was the Australian TV news anchor who wore the same suit every day for a year, though his aim was to demonstrate how his female colleague's outfit was commented on but his wasn't noticed. But you could also ask how much choice he had, especially anything that might offer less than full coverage.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/17/tv-anchor-same-suit-sexism_n_6170900.html

But it's true that while a uniform is constraining, it's freeing in a way. Every day you get up, and you don't have to worry about what to wear. You don't have to shop (or at least you know what to buy) and as long as you wear the uniform properly, you'll never be criticized about what you have on. There's some attraction to that kind of life!
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: jbeegoode on June 21, 2018, 11:17:46 PM
Yea, Blue train, we seemed to have bumped a button. But that's okay.

After my divorce and loss of my business I was faced with raising a son alone, no support, and he had some special needs to overcome. We did that, he's stable and now making six figures a good man. I made sure that he had cool clothing he felt that he could identify with, good clothing, no labels, he was proud not to be "a walking billboard" for someone else and he may have been the kid with the poorest family in his upper middle class school. The administration wanted to equalize everyone, and put them in demeaning school uniforms, right when kids are developing non-kid identification, when peer pressure conformity of clothing is at its greatest and one must learn the character of individuality. It was being railroaded into the school. I got active, pissed off some dicks that thought that it would be easy to control the situation, and got support. One support was my then girlfriend who had been a veteran of sexist rules requiring dresses and she wanted easier pants when she was in school andn then afterward at work. She fought with a lawsuit which coated the rest of the country in rights, when it was decided. I myself went through a haircut requirement fight, contributed to starting a school-wide walkout in protest and made changes. DF hates the new policy of demanding uniforms at her work. She is a proud professional and it is demeaning to get dressed like some kid at Taco Bell.

The same excuses were always given. Pride in belonging, dress for success, leveling the playing field by destroying individuality.
All is lots of crap, a lie. It has always been a way to control, and it suppresses our humanity, choice and pride in our free thinking and sense of freedom of expression. Being a part of something like for example the army and a uniform like that has to be out of choice. Otherwise, it is slavery, the draft, a control issue.

Any requirement of clothing is of the same. Lack of clothing would be the ultimate statement of free expression, unless someone required it. Clothing shuts us off from our very nature, our god given interaction with earth and the sense of being what that gifts us. Clothing is also a social costume, sometimes manufacturing a fake construct and the oppression inherent in social games.

Non-conformist says anti-conformist in most lingual context, but back in the day, my long hair was kept combed, My look was more natural and less plastic, my attitude was self expression, individuality, ala Ralf Waldo Emerson and my protests were justified, by my own free thinking, feeling and conscious. Individuality is not just non-conformity. Individuals are not all alike. It is better to be for something, constructive, not just against something, or running with a part of a herd.
Jbee

 
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: Bob Knows on June 21, 2018, 11:41:15 PM

And then there was the Australian TV news anchor who wore the same suit every day for a year, though his aim was to demonstrate how his female colleague's outfit was commented on but his wasn't noticed. But you could also ask how much choice he had, especially anything that might offer less than full coverage.


The bottom line in that AU TV news experiment is NOBODY CARES ABOUT MEN.  We are the background, the furniture.  As long as men are fully covered from neck to feet nobody gives a shit about us.  Far to many teen boys commit suicide when they find out that girls matter, girls a are special, girls are the princesses, but nobody gives a shit about boys -- or men. 

You can see the same thing on the media awards shows like the Oscars.  Women all have fancy expensive creative outfits, and often a lot of flesh showing.   All men are covered in black UNIFORMS from neck to feet.   You can see the same thing at the shopping mall.  Women have many large stores selling row after row of fancy expensive outfits.  Men have a very few stores or a small space in a large women's store where they sell a few rows of drab, durable, uniform, and cheaply made body covers. 

The psychological effects of MEN ARE FURNITURE, AREN'T SEEN, AND DON'T MATTER is a major part of why many more men are nudists, and many more men commit suicide. 

Bob
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: jbeegoode on June 22, 2018, 06:13:41 AM
I don't know about the stats for your suicide statement, but that is an interesting idea you present about why more men would be nudists. I've got to ponder that one.

Jbee
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: Peter S on June 22, 2018, 06:33:48 PM
I think the stats about male suicides outnumbering females is right, certainly in the UK, but working out the why still seems to elude us. After centuries of so-called male domination we (this seems a predominantly male discussion group) have had to face the switch to feminism which has, it is said, left men looking for our position in society, searching for the meaning of masculinity. But why that should lead some of us to the extremity of suicide is still unexplained - perhaps the two are not related after all.

Peter
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: BlueTrain on June 22, 2018, 10:21:33 PM
Having a different opinion which I freely share should not indicate that I am in a bad mood. It shouldn't, should it? Or does the unwillingness to go along with everyone else's (here, that is) ideas rub people the wrong way?

Concerning suicide, I have my own ideas but it's probably not the place to take this thread. By the way, I've been away for a couple of days, accounting for my absence. I went to a place that I suspect none of you would dare set foot in.

I don't agree with the current fad of knocking men (and boys). It simply doesn't exist. Of course, if you think women should be second-class citizens, I suppose you might see it that way. Chances are, the main reason Mrs. Clinton lost the election was because she was a woman. Both candidates were probably too old, though I'm younger than President Trump only by two months. But when five percent of the population controls over half the wealth of the country and most of that is old white men, why worry about men. They're doing okay. I was married in a kilt and didn't wear anything black. The bride wore the usual white dress. I don't understand why you say men aren't seen. Something wrong with your eyes? As for more men being nudist (than women), the question is, why aren't there more women nudists? Here we may be assuming that more men than women are nudists. Either way, what's the problem? Of the six (I think I said) people I knew who had committed suicide, half were women. I will admit that the sampling is small but I have personal knowledge of those incidents. In any event, I suspect that those who run around talking about the war on boys or how men are unimportant and so on, have an agenda of their own and probably something to do with making money. I assume that you aren't suggesting that men become more fashion conscious  and worry more about clothes, like women.

I don't think clothing shuts us off from anything, much less our interaction with the earth. If that were so, those most closely interacting with the earth would more likely to be nudists--or would it? Although I suppose clothing could be part of self-expression and if there are social games to be played, there's no reason you have to play along. And judging from the people I see, both male and female, few are.
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: jbeegoode on June 23, 2018, 06:56:16 PM
This conversation has become very disparate...Where and how to begin a response?

Suicide among teenagers and adults is generally about pressure. Social pressure, peer pressure, the "I ought to be this, or here ,but I'm not." The pertinent suicide reason to be discussed on this forum might be body image, which happens. There have also been teen suicides in concern with being exposed, seen naked, publicly humiliated because it is supposed to be humiliating to be seen as ourselves, without our disguise. These are bizarre to me, a human behavior that causes this kind of pressure is just bizarre dangerous behavior. The obsession with clothing and image is unhealthy. We have taken our tribal traits and gone haywire, clearly to a lethal extent.

Addressed more to my comments by Bluetrain, we DO have to play along with the social games or face penalties. Making a living, having a rounded group of friends, business opportunities, being arrested, being branded a social deviate, branded a slob, a freak, being set aside in cages, or reservations because you don't play the games. There is a tremendous pressure to conform to wearing clothing, keeping ones nudity a secret and wearing the correct clothing. The sexual connotations and behavioral "norms" around nude natural human bodies are an enormous hassle. I'm saying that it all needs to change. Yes, the people here on this forum do feel these things, see these things and know these things, they are not blinded and turned to sheep, like the textile obsessed.

Bluetrain, you tell us that you prefer without around the house. You prefer without on a hike. When out on a hike naked, what else is there but to notice the liberation in ones body? What does that mean, if not feeling closer to the earth? I'm confused that you could write such a statement and actually have been out on a nude hike, or any occasion nude in nature. What could be more apparent? Why do you do it? Are you just a lie, messing with the nudists, a poser playing a role? This makes no sense.

As for the plain clothing of men and frill of women's, I think back to the sixties corporate uniform. A highwater-cuff, off the rack suit and hat, in dark blue, gray or black and the conformity, yes sir behavior associated. Owned by the system, completely locked into job, nuclear family, image and more. Men were in control, everyone revolved around them, wives were in their roles. Things changed. We are finding our way through change. White glove sales are down.

This natural and nude change needs to happen. It has effect on broader social meanings, it has lessons to teach, to solve things like some suicides, rapes, oppression of expression, sexuality, sexist behaviors, self identity and environmental and spiritual concerns. the nude body has been integrated into the larger social illnesses and used to enforce these ills to such an extent that body liberation could produce powerful change. Change that I would like to see and change that I have yet to foresee. For now, looking uphill, I appreciate just the ability to live my life nude as best that I can, UNDER the circumstances.

Its 109F out there today. Stay naked, in shade, in water, in shelter. Clothing obsession IS insanity on this day. Naked is as surely a practicality as shoes on the hot asphalt. Clothing needs to be seen as a practicality, or a frivolous fun, nothing more. A nude body needs to be, just that, what it is. There is so much to gain from nudity and so much that can be shed with the clothing.

Check this out. This is the extreme of what is going on with clothing. This is using the same principles as the basic body oppression in America and throughout the world. It is more than a nude walk in the forest. It is more than clothing oppression.
https://a.msn.com/r/2/AAyZxii?m=en-us&referrerID=InAppShare
Jbee
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: BlueTrain on June 23, 2018, 10:16:40 PM
"Addressed more to my comments by Bluetrain, we DO have to play along with the social games or face penalties. Making a living, having a rounded group of friends, business opportunities, being arrested, being branded a social deviate, branded a slob, a freak, being set aside in cages, or reservations because you don't play the games. There is a tremendous pressure to conform to wearing clothing, keeping ones nudity a secret and wearing the correct clothing. The sexual connotations and behavioral "norms" around nude natural human bodies are an enormous hassle. I'm saying that it all needs to change. Yes, the people here on this forum do feel these things, see these things and know these things, they are not blinded and turned to sheep, like the textile obsessed."

None of those things are games. Making a living is serious. "Correct clothing?" What's that? You're the one sounding :"textile obsessed." Or it may be obsession with nudity. Either way, it sounds like an obsession.

I'm not sure what you mean by poser. I'm an old man, like many of you. I really don't do much of anything these days, to be honest. But when I have hiked nude or been nude at home, conditions permitting, I certainly don't feel any closer to the earth. Sure, I like the feeling of being naked but closer to the earth? Please explain. The closest I ever got to the earth was working on a tobacco farm. I started nude hiking when I was in high school and was in a situation that afforded some good opportunities. It was years before I had more opportunities like that but mostly the opportunities have slipped away. That is, to do nude hiking. As it is now, I see more wildlife on my local hikes in the woods than I ever have. But hiking nude is out of the question without a long drive away from home and I'm trying to cut back on my driving for financial reasons.

Maybe I am messing with you all a little. You need to be shaken up now and then. Go back and read over some of the posts. If you want to encourage more people to be nude for some reason, saying things like "clothing kills" is going to get some funny looks. Suggesting that clothing is the source of the world's problems is not going to get you anywhere. Something wrong with a nuclear family? Or the old version, the atomic family. Not many of us really live in such a situation. Usually there are relatives. I keep seeing words like pressure, obsession, bizarre, conformity, locked into, control and so on. Make your argument without using any of those words, if possible.

Different people react differently to perceived pressures. Some don't even notice it. Others create it. Most play no games. Maybe you're projecting you own reactions and feelings onto everyone else. On another forum I frequently trade barbs because that person's point of view is that everyone did what he did and thought the same in the past and if they didn't, then they don't count. I guess because I didn't share his experiences (or vice versa), then I wasn't liberated or something. Anyway, he also seems to base his ideas on the way things were (or they way he thought they were) in a narrow window of time.
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: jbeegoode on June 25, 2018, 05:01:34 AM
“None of those things are games. Making a living is serious. "Correct clothing?" What's that? You're the one sounding :"textile obsessed." Or it may be obsession with nudity. Either way, it sounds like an obsession.”

Bluetrain, you obviously are defining “games” as exclusively something done for fun. Games are very serious social and cultural contexts. I’m working with the common definition.

“Feeling” elements is naturism. Seeing wildlife is something not requiring nudity. I think that you are just messing with me, or playing here. I think that is rude and worthless.

“Maybe I am messing with you all a little. You need to be shaken up now and then. Go back and read over some of the posts. If you want to encourage more people to be nude for some reason, saying things like "clothing kills" is going to get some funny looks. Suggesting that clothing is the source of the world's problems is not going to get you anywhere. Something wrong with a nuclear family? Or the old version, the atomic family. Not many of us really live in such a situation. Usually there are relatives. I keep seeing words like pressure, obsession, bizarre, conformity, locked into, control and so on. Make your argument without using any of those words, if possible.”

The tenor of this thread was introduced in the first entry. It is meant to be more confrontational. It was presented that clothing obsession and clothing culture does “in fact” sometimes cause death, unhappiness, despair, suicide. We all need to be aware of this. The idea is not just to encourage people to get the kit off, but more to be aware of the obsession and unhealthy crap that it “in fact” causes. Nobody suggested “that clothing is the source of the world's problems.” Nobody stated a problem with the nuclear family.

The very arguments are wrapped around words/concepts like pressure, obsession, bizarre, conformity, locked into, control and outrageousness. They are aptly descriptive. They are strong as the tenor of this thread, but they are truth. They are in the realm of the thinking of both Bob and myself.  The tenor is aggressive, rally crying, and no nonsense. I don’t like your nonsensical response, as it insults and distracts from the issues presented.

In a world where we now have full gay rights as accepted, and coming out of my teen years when “ rolling queers” on a Friday night was acceptable behavior condoned by law enforcement, it is now seen as possible that body rights and freedoms can also be liberated. We are not just shooting off our mouths here, if norms are to be changed. You seem very attached to antiquated, or immobile norms in your perspectives.

Nope, everybody is not going to get on the same page of thought tomorrow. Popular opinion will not change law tomorrow, and if it actually did, probably few would feel free enough to interact in public nude ( just look at New York Topfree laws and the social climate and actual usage). That doesn’t mean that discussion, activism and many different kinds of each will not eventually solve these social ills wrapped around clothing and consumerism. Awareness is the key. I dislike you attempting to trivialize the discussion. I dislike your demonstration of disrespect.

Maybe I didn’t set my point across well enough, but the period of the late 50’s and early sixties, I think is a good example to show what is going on today. Back then, a woman stayed home, prepared to merely support her husband’s career, wasn’t entitled to enjoy sex, a was dressed in appropriate clothing, but we are no longer constrained to that BS anymore. Things have changed. One thing that surely oppresses female rights is clothing and the sexuality around it. Women are moving forward, gays are moving forward, body freedom issues can move forward, too. All it takes is another generation like mine to latch on to a new wave of thinking and see enormous social change. In the late sixties, simply seeing people skinnydipping with casual social nudity in a movie about a rock festival made life long change in the majority of a generation.

Trading barbs is one thing, but you fail to notice that there has been no trade here. Although the tenor is more extreme, and maybe just a more extreme tenor for fun at times, the discussion is serious. Please, stop attempting to diminish what is going on, particularly like that is your entire intention for being here.

Correct clothing, obsession, try this a stab at humor making fun of it: https://thefreerangenaturist.org/2016/08/19/clothing-obsession-a-stab-at-humor/
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: BlueTrain on June 25, 2018, 12:23:01 PM
I do understand that "game" can be used in a way that doesn't imply fun. One can "game" the system, for example, which is taking advantage of how a system works for one's personal benefit. Perhaps that's what you meant.

I still think you're overemphasizing obsessions. Merely because a person likes to wear nice clothes in the latest fashion, doesn't necessarily mean they're obsessed with clothes, though I suppose some are. But if they aren't obsessed, they don't help your argument. I'm not trying to be rude but sometimes people think that when someone else has a different opinion and point of view. Expect to be disagreed with now and then. Maybe we just live in different worlds. I'm sorry you don't care for my opinions.

We definitely lived in different worlds in the 1950s. The women in my neighborhood worked. The men didn't have careers; they had jobs. They mostly belonged to unions. Nothing changed in the 1960s or 1970s. Not there. I lived elsewhere after that.

Maybe it's because I've lived a sheltered life or something. Never went to a rock festival. Never saw anyone skinny-dipping anywhere. I do know the years around 1970 were supposed to be quite liberating and men could grow long sideburns. But it's been downhill since. Some people thought there would be lots of nude beaches by now and that public nudity would be totally accepted. But what happened was, the Young Republicans that were in school when we were are the ones running things now. Such nudity and other socially progressive movements were not accepted then or now. They were merely tolerated. Big difference and that is the problem with viewing the past from this distance of 40 years.

Maybe you folks need a dose of reality. Trump is trying to be lord and master. Freedom and liberation now exist in word form only. Zero tolerance is the new buzzword. What are the chances that public nudity will be accepted now?
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: jbeegoode on June 25, 2018, 06:31:23 PM
No liberation today and not tomorrow. In the 60's there was backlash to political/governmental constraints. Perhaps there will be questioning, and sense of being oppressed, too much breeds contempt. This building steam often vents with social change, something that government hasn't the time for, nor much hope of doing or controlling. Further oppression tends to create backlash and polarization. The polarization increases in a reciprocal fashion. Utter NAzi Germany style control won't cut it. When I visited East Berlin in the height of the Berlin Wall problem, everyone was at work during the day. The streets were bizarrely empty. It was such an extreme contrast. Then, walking down the street, I saw a lone hipster/rocker, dressed in jeans and Elvis hair, dark sunglasses. CAn't stop it.

If I got it correct, you are saying in your own way that since we have the reincarnation of Benito Mussolini in the Whitehouse, that the like minded rest will ride the coattails. Depends. Some regions like that stuff. Some don't. We saw what happened to Mussolini and his wife.

I think that only mass media with experimentation and peer group thinking will affect mass social changes and that it depends on the issue. But more and more, it is driven by a buck as is the political system.

We have seen how social media is being manipulated by government. Perhaps that will change, but for now, what people like us put on the net will affect change, attitude, thought and possibilities. Who'd thought that marijuana legalization would become so popular? On the other hand, we have a political zero tolerant bureaucratic Nazi tactics war on drugs, when there is a more workable practical system in place in reasonable old England for heroin, while the American politicians double down. There is social change, political change evolving in Europe in concern of nudity. Maybe for once, these American conservative influences will get off their ethnocentric holier than thou crap and take note. Nudity is harmless, good business, and keeps people happier and more tolerant. Government and those that run it, are often more tolerant, as long as people work, stay in debt, and want more.

We can't know. I'm watching for my opening and ready to punch. My defense is up until then. I'm staying in shape. The textile world is way out of hand. Not everyone would agree, but to me, this country has lost its compass and there is not much that I can affect. Body freedom and the associated social change is one place where there is possibility.

Dancing around politics here, but as long as it is squarely about naturism being practiced everywhere, it is pertinent to what we need to accomplish.

Bob and I are occasionally trolling the net, correcting ignorance of nudity issues as it expresses itself. You'll see mainstream controlling their place's narrative, with their louder voices. You'll see the sexualization of bodies. You'll see clothing promotions. But where people go to ask and to think, there is a clear alternative message and it is not so harsh or direct much like the tenor of this thread. We'll see. Things tend to just take off sometimes. Not everybody would like the changes, but they are a minority. Perhaps some pivitol incident will happen. Perhaps it will be incremental until critical mass surprises us all, like these more recent marijuana polls. Where did those opinions come from?

The gay thing has come about and I think that there are lessons of strengths for our concerns inherent in that. Why? Because so many of us have a relative, someone that they care for that is some kind of gay. It seems harmless, the narrative was challenged and changed, fears were nullified. There are gays with wealth. Secret gays in power. People with gay kids. It isn't our business. Things have changed dramatically. In kind, we all have bodies, we have people that we care about, we all have a natural tendency toward naturism, the narrative is being challenged, secret nudes are in places of power and we're actually innocuous, even healthy.
Jbee   

Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: BlueTrain on June 25, 2018, 11:33:11 PM
Gee, I never once thought of Mussolini and Trump at the same time. Some called Lincoln a tyrant. They aren't all the same. They have different goals, even though the means might be pretty much the same. The only thing they have in common, I think, is that they all want to stay in power. Elections become a farce, if there are any, although one hates to admit that most of the people actually like their leader, though it only may be 51%.

A basic problem here is the failure to realize that a lot of people have an intense dislike of certain things. Gays, nudity (public or otherwise), same sex marriage, Roman Catholics, Jews, Muslims, (American) Indians, Hispanics, immigrants (apparently only the illegal ones), you name it. They may or may not tolerate it but they'll never approve of it. I don't know why divorce and Hindus didn't make the list but they have apparently given up on alcohol. Nobody seems to be preaching against drugs like they used to, except for opioids, which, ironically, are prescription drugs. Anyway, those are the problems that Trump's base rally around, while their attention is diverted from more serious issues. School shootings are apparently not a problem worth doing anything serious about. The national debt will sooner or later bankrupt the country. Maybe Trump thinks that's a workable solution. It worked for him.

But public nudity? Not in any so-called conservative state, although it's hard to tell which one is conservative sometimes. There is, of course, some public nudity. Some legal and the rest merely tolerated. Even private nudity in clubs is illegal in some places. There are a few public beaches where nudity is legal and a few other places here and there. The Bay to the breakers in San Francisco tolerated a few nude joggers as do some parades in the Northwest. Supposedly there have been body painting events in Central Park in Manhattan and I don't mean Manhattan, Kansas. Trump is from Manhattan, you know.

Mostly, though, it is a moral problem. I don't mean that public nudity is immoral, though it is nearly always illegal (but not fattening--not sure about that, though). It's just that we always underestimate the capacity of upstanding people to be hypocrites. I'm from West Virginia, which used to be a nice, conservative state, although it was full of hillbillies, at least up to somewhere beyond Charleston but not as far as Elkins. True, they had issues with illegal liquor (moonshine) but that was exaggerated as far as I could tell. Oh, but now! The state is full of tattoo parlors, liquor stores (formerly state-controlled), "gentlemen's clubs" (strip joints) and gambling, euphemistically called "gaming." And people in that state dare to moralize anyone's behavior without ever mentioning any of those things.

Government cannot be better than the citizens.   And yet...

And yet, hardly everyone is like that. It might be than only 55% of the population (a landslide majority) is like that but they get their way. But there are those who say it's an act of God when the creek floods, all because we have turned away from God. They never explain exactly what they themselves did to deserve it but I'm sure they regretted it.
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: jbeegoode on June 26, 2018, 06:50:02 AM
There seems to be some rambling going on here that has nothing to do with the thread, or the forum, or the website. It kind of washes out the conversation and topic. I think that the topic of the thread is important. I think that strategy, the bigger picture and attitude is important. Too bad it is being censored. Makes it not worth coming here to join in, to weigh in, or make effort. Now, is this calculated, or did one of us slip out of gear?
Jbee
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: eyesup on June 26, 2018, 07:06:38 AM
Quote from: BlueTrain
You're starting to sound like an anarchist that believes we don't have enough lawbreaking and rebellion in society . . .
Yeah, raise cain, then go for a swim to cool off!  :) ;D

Quote from: JohnP
Every day you get up, and you don't have to worry about what to wear. You don't have to shop (or at least you know what to buy) . . .
Wasn’t it a character, a mathematician I think, the actor Jeff Goldblum played that always wore black so he didn’t have to make decisions about what clothes to buy and to wear? If you are going to wear clothes, keep it simple.

From what I’ve read on anarchists and their agendas, manifestos and protest events, it sounds exhausting. I guess that’s why most of ’em are young. Too tiresome for me.

Duane
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: eyesup on June 26, 2018, 07:11:45 AM
Quote
Real uniforms make deciding what to wear unnecessary. They also give you a strong sense of pride and belonging to an organization and something big.
Some people have to wear uniforms on the job, it’s how people know who they are. Outside of job requirements, I don’t see the need for a uniform and who would want a job where it was required? But, it’s a crowded world and it’s full of all types. We can wear what we want and if you want to wear that, more power to ya!

If you don’t need it on the job, why do you need it? It’s a prop, a stage device. Life is too complicated as it is to clutter our free time with constricting uniforms.

As to the Aussie newscaster, one man, one trial behavior does not an experiment make. Of course by Occam’s Razor, it could be that no one particularly likes him.

Duane
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: eyesup on June 26, 2018, 07:12:46 AM
People commit suicide for all sorts of reasons, from real to imagined influences. How someone can reach a point where they imagine that choice is the only one that makes sense, is beyond my understanding. I am blessed.

I think you are right, Peter, that the causes are not known for certain. My father-in-law used to say that suicide was a permanent solution to a temporary problem. He wasn’t trying to be funny, and he was right. The regular person that comes to that place need only ask for help.

Those that are incapable of seeing a way out are in a terrible spot. They make that decision alone. I’ve known two who’ve done that. One older in their 60’s, the other was only 16 yrs. old. From what I know of what happened, the thing in common was despair.

Duane
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: eyesup on June 26, 2018, 07:13:21 AM
I try to not hang around people that play games. I prefer honesty. Occasionally it can be ruthless but in the long run there is no deceit.

Duane
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: BlueTrain on June 26, 2018, 01:57:33 PM
Some discretion goes a long ways. So does a little civility.

That is a built-in problem with forums like this, mostly. Some seem to be worse than others but probably because of those who post. The problem is that the communication is limited. You aren't speaking face to face with someone and all the non-verbal communication is absent. Moreover, your knowledge of the other person is also limited (presumably), so that you can't tailor your comments for the other person. Besides, you aren't speaking to just one person but rather to anyone who happens along. But it's better than nothing. Before the internet, the closest thing might have been letters to the editor.

I might hang around some people in spite of themselves for one reason or another. There are several reasons that I'm here.

One is, I have time now, although since retiring, the time is still not unlimited. Another, perhaps more important, is the disappearance of certain other forums that I used to visit and to which I frequently contributed. The others, however, were more specific in subject matter, which was nude hiking. I only visit one other forum for which nudity is a topic.

I would also add that the mechanics of the forum makes a difference. Because different forums use different software (I guess you would say), different ones can vary in how easy the forum is to use and follow.
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: Bob Knows on June 26, 2018, 03:15:21 PM

But there are those who say it's an act of God when the creek floods, all because we have turned away from God. They never explain exactly what they themselves did to deserve it but I'm sure they regretted it.

Some would say the creek floods because all the wolves and beaver were exterminated by humans. 

Others would say only the stupid build their home by the creek instead of on higher ground, and the "flood" is a normal high water line.   

Still others would say that Zeus, God of the sky, was playing with his lighting and storms again. 

Everyone has an opinion.  Most of them are right. 

Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: BlueTrain on June 26, 2018, 05:57:56 PM
If people don't live there, flooding is unimportant, no matter why it happens. But if it flooded once, it will surely flood again. One place where I worked in Alexandria, Virginia, flooded three times, the last time in 1975, not long after I started work there. You could see how high the water got by marks on the wooden doors.
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: jbeegoode on June 26, 2018, 09:07:51 PM
When a flood of rambling off topic comments washes over a forum conversation, it washes out the content of the discussion, much like what the flood that you came out of the blue to describe has done to that town. This thread reads completely different when I eliminate the Bluetrain comments, but leaving the response to them. It is like listening to someone with Adult ADD. Perhaps you are having trouble adjusting to retirement. It is how governments flush down descent by dominating the airwaves with distractions, etc.
Jbee
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: eyesup on June 26, 2018, 10:44:42 PM
Yes, I’ve mentioned before how the inability to see facial expression, body language and tone of voice makes the discussion a little more challenging. The up side is I am in the habit of proofing what I type.

Good practice here but not on a streaming consciousness forum! ;D

Duane
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: BlueTrain on June 27, 2018, 01:39:18 PM
I'm afraid to make a post now, lest it be off-topic or contrary to anyone's sensitivities. Perhaps for the sake of clarity, the fewer posts there are, the better.

I do not work for the government and I am having no trouble adjusting to retirement. I'm having some difficulty being around my wife all the time but the house has three floors. I am easily distracted sometimes, though. Too much freedom, probably.
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: ric on June 27, 2018, 05:32:41 PM
just who are the forum police that decide whether a post is on or off topic..... in reality they dont exist....sure some members can moan when someone posts something they dont like ... but their opinion is no more or less valuable than anyone elses.

the forum wouldnt be worth looking at if it was just a couple of posters just banging on about the latest bee in their bonnet for page after page with nobody allowed to voice an alternate or even mildly different  opinion .

Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: jbeegoode on June 27, 2018, 07:29:28 PM
I agree ric. If you two go back and look at what was happening, as I suggested, it should be evident what needs to be done and the complaint. I have been here forever, nearly daily and participated with topic drift and relished different points of view. By what was going on, I seriously decided to leave this forum because of this systematic crap. The value was being taken from participating. So, I had to say something, hoping to correct the problem. This has been too important to me to just say nothing and drift away. Look at the thread, then look at the content and the unrelated blather washing away the meaningful discourse.

It should be evident to you. Then, there is passive aggressive response to my complaint.

Perhaps if you just go back and read what you write and what you are responding to like you are another reader, you will see more clearly what I mean. There is discussion, and then there is stream of consciousness like taking the the hands off of the wheel. It is just about being considerate. It is about haphazardly "messing" with people like toys. Bluetrain, I think that you know very well what needs to be done. It is not some fear thing for you. I think you know the difference and you are perfectly capable.  I should say that your coming online here has been often stimulating and useful. You can be straight up, no games. Hopefully, nothing more need be said. We go on.
Jbee
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: John P on July 04, 2018, 11:34:22 PM
Is it still OK to post to this thread with something relevant to the original title?

I found this on a British newspaper's site:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2018/jul/04/all-beaches-technically-naturist-beaches-a-guide-to-nude-sunbathing

It's got a journalist's name on it, but it's essentially by Andrew Welch, who's British Naturism's main spokesman. He's saying that naturism is legal everywhere, but he also says going to an established "nude beach" is still a good idea.

"All beaches are technically naturist beaches, but naturists tend to go to specific places where they know they will find others and which are hassle-free. You could go to your local park, naked, and it would be legal but the trouble is, culturally you would probably attract attention."
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: jbeegoode on July 05, 2018, 05:09:13 AM
It's The Guardian. I read the Guardian sometimes here in USA. It is more honest than US media. There is news that gets squelched here found in the Guardian. It isn't owned by US corporate structures. What I'm getting at, is that it is a responsible acclaimed news source read around the world and it just published this.

The BN guy certainly is attempting to damp down the fire a bit, so that it doesn't threaten a flame. This is however good news, as it legitimizes public nudity and gets it more accepted. The word is out and he's telling everyone that there is nothing to fear, be nice. It is an incremental thing toward a goal that can't occur too rapidly. Not everybody is ready for swift change and there are quite a few unjustified fears still out there to create backlash.

Dang, if only those islands had more sunshine.... 8)
Jbee
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: MartinM on July 05, 2018, 08:16:12 AM
Some of us here have been getting out here regularly recently in the unusually good wether, buoyed by the recent publishing of the College of Policing guidelines for dealing with incidents of nudity, basically saying, simple nudity, someone going about their lawful business naked, no offence committed, no further action.

I posted three long reports on BN forum just covering last weekend when I covered about 25 miles in the Lake District fells naked, covering up for brief periods only after seeing people close to, and skinny dipping at two popular river pools after asking if anyone minded. Almost all the encounters were positive.

No doubt others are also pushing thier normal boundaries, being more visible and gaining more public acceptance. The only concern is that some individuals do not abuse their right to be naked due to the publicity into confrontational situations, which may or may not be legal, but could result in public backlash. Hence the care expressed by Andrew Welch.

Meanwhile, I have never had such a good tan. Shame I  ???slipped down a crack in some saltmarsh on Tuesday and twisted my knee. It will curtail my activities a little for a while.
Title: Re: Legalize Public Nudity --- Free our bodies and our minds!
Post by: jbeegoode on July 05, 2018, 04:48:58 PM
Ouch! Gotta backyard and a lounger?

While you are laid up, could you cut and paste those trip reports in the trip report section?...all ya all, how's about some trip reports? I still can't imagine walking with no fear, in freedom, my decision, my perceptions, no worries, but for the social ramifications.

What happened? They pop out this ruling and suddenly the sun comes out and its a great time to be naked in it? Like all of the clouds have been lifted on a new day?

The cosmos have spoken,"Go firth and bee naked in the Sun!" ;D 8) ;)
Jbee