Free Range Naturism

Naturism => General Naturism Discussion => Topic started by: jbeegoode on June 28, 2018, 07:35:36 PM

Title: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jbeegoode on June 28, 2018, 07:35:36 PM
 I don't know if these guys are looking for too much too soon, but bless them. I signed the petition and have been getting updates about every week.

 The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Jbee
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: Bob Knows on June 28, 2018, 08:15:59 PM
I have noticed several ad-hoc organizations taking up the fight for body freedom.  The big old "nudist" organizations in the US have not seen fit to support body freedom and even publicly oppose nudity except "in appropriate places on private property,"  (high price resorts).   

BN in the UK has been successful gaining recognition of body freedom rights.   AANR in the US is not on that page.

The Bare Body Freedom Movement is making a splash in New York.  Other groups in other states are also pushing public body freedom.    Numerous American nudists have given up on the old line resort folks.  Its about time.

I signed their petition a few weeks ago. 

Bob
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jbeegoode on June 28, 2018, 10:07:55 PM
Mark Story has been creating stret demonstrations for body freedoms for years. He frequently writes of his free range adventures in "N" Mag. He is in the hub of TNS. There is change there. There is also practicality. That organization needs more grass roots support and bucks for the NAC, if it is to work like BN. They are also holding together a coalition of naturists and various activities, which includes resorts, too.

John P. is going to their Eastern Gathering. Perhaps he could let us know what is going on. There is tremendous inclusiveness at those gatherings. They are always up for people to participate and present.
Jbee
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: Bob Knows on June 29, 2018, 02:55:30 AM
Mark Story has been creating stret demonstrations for body freedoms for years. He frequently writes of his free range adventures in "N" Mag. He is in the hub of TNS. There is change there. There is also practicality. That organization needs more grass roots support and bucks for the NAC, if it is to work like BN. They are also holding together a coalition of naturists and various activities, which includes resorts, too.

John P. is going to their Eastern Gathering. Perhaps he could let us know what is going on. There is tremendous inclusiveness at those gatherings. They are always up for people to participate and present.
Jbee


It would go a long way to public confidence if AANR would drop its opposition to body freedom in public, maybe they could even advocate body freedom.   

Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jbeegoode on June 29, 2018, 05:34:31 AM
I'd like to see TNS take that lead. AANR has never really been that kind of organizations that I know off. Old school. TNS is already set up with NAC and NEC. They have the tradition going back to Lee Bauxendall (How do I spell that?). He started it nurtured it and wanted to see body freedom. His strategy was "nude recreation is the way." Get out have some fun and others will follow. The first incremental step was free beaches. They publish free hiking, WBR, WGD, free range kayak trips, etc. The NAC would love to have the support and create change in law, not just tread water. They manage to put out the polls every so a often, some of the most valuable evidence that we have to make our case.

I think that TNS/NAC just needs some grassroots support. The membership does most of the writing for the magazine. Bob, I'm curious, if you were a member, what would you write in 1400 words for the magazine? What do 30,000 naturists need to hear? How do we get people motivated?
Jbee
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: Bob Knows on June 29, 2018, 07:12:21 PM
I'd like to see TNS take that lead. AANR has never really been that kind of organizations that I know off. Old school. TNS is already set up with NAC and NEC. They have the tradition going back to Lee Bauxendall (How do I spell that?). He started it nurtured it and wanted to see body freedom. His strategy was "nude recreation is the way." Get out have some fun and others will follow. The first incremental step was free beaches. They publish free hiking, WBR, WGD, free range kayak trips, etc. The NAC would love to have the support and create change in law, not just tread water. They manage to put out the polls every so a often, some of the most valuable evidence that we have to make our case.

I think that TNS/NAC just needs some grassroots support. The membership does most of the writing for the magazine. Bob, I'm curious, if you were a member, what would you write in 1400 words for the magazine? What do 30,000 naturists need to hear? How do we get people motivated?
Jbee


I have belonged to TNS fairly recently.  They do seem to be more appropriately focused than AANR.  I didn't get a notice that my membership was going to expire and it did. 

I have seen some of the material from NAC for years.  Perhaps its funding, and perhaps its a lack of volunteers.  For whatever reasons they have never been pro-active talking about what people can get away with where.  Their web site lists only the statutes, and never court cases, which any lawyer can tell you isn't enough to know the law.  And, they apparently have never taken the kind of pro-active approach BN has been doing lately. 

Neither have I seen any request for volunteers from NAC, not on the TNS page, and especially not on social media.   

I read articles in the Oregonian Newspaper https://www.oregonlive.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2015/06/public_nudity_in_oregon.html (https://www.oregonlive.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2015/06/public_nudity_in_oregon.html) about where you can go naked in Oregon, but reading the TNS/NAC web site one would never know that nudity is generally legal throughout Oregon.  Same with other US States. That amounts to lying by omission. 

Barefoot groups pester state governments getting affirmations about the legality of being barefoot.  When nude is generally legal, why aren't nude groups pestering state governments to say so?   I want to support them, but I want them to step up and advocate for body freedom too.

Bob


Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: Rebus on June 29, 2018, 09:12:59 PM
For those interested, here's another petition for body freedom from Don Tau, a freedom activist.

https://www.change.org/p/public-nudity-should-be-exempt-from-penal-laws
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: nuduke on July 03, 2018, 02:49:24 PM

I just noticed, Bob and chaps, that the Oregonian article is in the 'Entertainment' section.
Is the nude lifestyle a form of entertainment?  And if so, for whom?  The participant or the reader?
Is there a PhD thesis there?
John
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: Bob Knows on July 03, 2018, 03:55:05 PM

I just noticed, Bob and chaps, that the Oregonian article is in the 'Entertainment' section.
Is the nude lifestyle a form of entertainment?  And if so, for whom?  The participant or the reader?
Is there a PhD thesis there?
John

A well known American nudist organization self identifies their advocacy as "recreation."   The Oregonian newspaper perhaps thinks "nude recreation" is a form of entertainment rather than a way of life.  Their article focused on nudist theme parks and beaches in a state where public nudity is generally legal almost everywhere, as they accurately reported. Its not hard to see where they got the idea that naked means "nude recreation." 

Bob
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: Rebus on July 03, 2018, 03:59:43 PM
I think from the newspapers perspective "entertainment" is inclusive of events and activities and places to go nude would be considered an activity.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jbeegoode on July 03, 2018, 09:04:37 PM
The recreation idea is incremental. Lee BAxandall said "...nude recreation is the way." (to change). Perhaps, hanging out where people try nude recreation passing out leaflets about nude lifestyle might bring on their next logical step?

The goal is to have "the option" as an acceptable alternative. Most people will wear clothing for social reasons, or during cold and then see clothing as ridiculous in certain situations, or a simple option instead of a catastrophe, or embarrassment.

So, making news is a tool for social change. Isn't that how race, sex, gender and sexual preferences have become more and more equal, protected and more norm. So, goes body liberation.

What I'm curious about is what has made this stuff legal and practical in Europe and not here in USA? How could NAC and TNS get some progress made? Is it about a more homogeneous society in a smaller state making government do the practical, reasonable, more progressive actions and decisions? Was it a grass roots supported thing? Does it have to do with the polls taken by BN?

How might the narrative in the media be changed?
Jbee
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: BlueTrain on July 03, 2018, 09:54:50 PM
I have often wondered the same thing myself and have even posed the question on other forums. But I never received a satisfactory answer. I lived in Germany for two years and never saw any public nudity where I was. Yet even then it was permissible on the beach in some places, though hardly everywhere. My wife told me that most all beaches in Denmark were topless in the 1970s but that doesn't explain how they came to be that way. Topless has been okay on Mediterranean beaches for decades, but when that became common is another question. But it is a big leap from topless to nude. Even so, beach nudity in Europe goes back a ways.

Change can happen without any fanfare, so slowly it isn't even noticed. Other times, it's dramatic, even violent. But it's hard to say if a smaller, homogeneous society will necessarily be reasonable or progressive. Yet the changes for the better concerning public nudity that have occurred in my lifetime have been remarkable, if somewhat uneven. One could investigate how those (few) legal nude beaches became that way. Perhaps that's something a little research in old copies of "N" or the older Clothed with the sun periodicals could shed some light on.

Ultimately, it was probably a grass roots thing. The legality of the thing followed years of everyday use without too many problems by lots of ordinary people. You might say that legal public nudity starts with a beachhead.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: John P on July 03, 2018, 11:15:36 PM
I think "Don Tau" is actually Ton Dou, which I believe is a shortened form of his real name, Tony Douglas or some such thing. He advances the cause of body acceptance by doing public performances naked, and he has one planned for New York City on Sept 2:

https://ultimatefreedomconcert.com/
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/naked-concert-in-times-square-tickets-43206124682

It's also a money-making project, or perhaps there are expenses he hopes to recover. In New York nudity is illegal, but there's an exception for artistic performances. You can be part of the Ton Dou concert by buying a wristband for $50.00, which makes you a "participant" and thus not a criminal. Or since it's taking place in a public location, you can just go along and watch for free.

Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: Peter S on July 04, 2018, 08:47:25 AM
Quote
…years of everyday use without too many problems

Perhaps the question should not be when and how did  nudity become legal but when and how did it become illegal



Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: BlueTrain on July 04, 2018, 12:56:47 PM
Different times, different places, different reasons, probably. When do you suppose it became common for families to go to the seaside for recreation? The rural and small town tradition of skinny-dipping goes back a long ways but it wasn't something girls and boys, much less families did together.

I grew up in a small town and there was a local pond where a few boys might skinny-dip now and then but it wasn't water than I would put my foot in. I don't know where I had heard of skinny-dipping but when I was still in high school, we moved to the country, in the next county. I was sorely disappointed to learn there was no such practice but I think the real reason was there was no old swimming hole or mill pond. There did used to be a mill but all that remained was remnants of the dam. There was no trace of the mill itself but water mills used to be very common in the east. The one and only time I went swimming while I lived there was to a place ten miles away, with mixed swimming and no suggestion of skinny-dipping. Yet in spite of it being a devoutly Baptist (all varieties) country, I'm sure it happened when there were suitable places for swimming or at least, bathing.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: Bob Knows on July 04, 2018, 02:50:52 PM
Perhaps the question should not be when and how did  nudity become legal but when and how did it become illegal


Perhaps in the "Victorian" era of the late 19th century.   Homes began having many small rooms, largely to to heating technology.  Plumbing moved indoors, into a closet, and chamber pots went away.  That which is not seen becomes unseeable.  The same era, soon called the "Progressive" era in the USA began local police forces where everything people once took for granted became illegal, or illegal without a license.  Bodies became illegal too. 

 
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jbeegoode on July 05, 2018, 05:56:19 AM
Not to confuse the original progressive ear of 1890 through the 1920's with the more recent label of progressive.

Those progressive "reforms" were meddling in many ways. These laws against nature, the anti-nudity laws, I think were more of an incorporation of existing social norms into law and not actually part of the movement as defined generally. They reflected an already existent Victorian sensibility, the social disease created by an earlier meddler. I think that nudity regulation would happen on its own and has been continuous. These aren't all old laws. 

I'm always leery of labels because they are generalities and often given instead of claimed by those labeled. Historians like to label as much as opposition.
Jbee
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: BlueTrain on July 05, 2018, 11:45:36 AM
I generally think the same thing about labels. But I don't think the shortcomings of labels are so much that they are generalities sometimes but rather because they are too specific;  too narrow in the wording. But on the other hand, they can be very accurate, that is, insofar as they go. You might not apply a certain label to yourself, yet it can still be accurate.

I've had other interests besides nudism over the years. One of those was my Land-Rover, which was a 1965 short wheelbase station wagon (estate car). I didn't do much hiking while I had it, either. An acquaintance that I started college with in 1964 also had one. Once, he introduced me to someone else as a "four-wheeler." I had never thought of myself as a four-wheeler, yet I probably did more off-road driving than anyone else in town. There might also be labels that you would deny, too, I suppose, accurate or not.

Laws are for the most part social norms codified. Increasing population and advances in technology account for most of the increase in the number of laws, changing social norms for the rest, probably. At a distance in time, we sometimes fail to recognize the real reasons for certain laws, irrespective of whether or not the law was (or is) "good." The prohibition movement, for example, did not exist because someone believed it was simply immoral to drink anything alcoholic. Some still believe that and Jesus turned water into grape juice, not wine. The real reason was that there were saloons on every corner and drunkenness was a social issue. It was the original drug war, you might say. I had a couple of neighbors when I was little who could have accurately been labelled drunks. Not alcoholics, drunks.

Those social norms, however, are not set by voting on election day. They are set by the crowd that lives on top of the hill for the benefit of the unwashed masses and maybe, when no ones looking, may not even follow them themselves. But now I'm getting cynical.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jbeegoode on July 05, 2018, 06:09:30 PM
Quote
…years of everyday use without too many problems

Perhaps the question should not be when and how did  nudity become legal but when and how did it become illegal
Yes, it was during that period that US population went from something like 90% rural to urban. Industrial standards and monopolies applied pressure on people and expanded control into the rest (Bluetrain's guys on the hill). Here, population was expanding with a great influx of foreigners mixed into the pot.  Chasing a buck was a life and death matter, producing conformity from above. There was a liaise fare chaos going on, so people looked for answers, rules and applied the norms that they knew to new laws.

The new industrialization created something which raised the bar for conformity and worker dehumanization and exploitation. All of these factors was a lot of steam, the pot was boiling over.

Social standing became a more intricate sophisticated game. With all of this, here comes Victoria's and Emily's social standards. These were something to grasp onto and exploit to out proper the next, to rise above with social competition. Look at the uptight clothing. People had to carry themselves and dress and act "proper", "respectable", to show "class". It was about social upwards mobility and getting ahead. Naked didn't meld into that.

What are now deemed as having been "progressive" movements to be blamed is incorrect, I believe. These movements were just results of an intricate, multifaceted, multi-directional society looking for a culture to cling to in the storm. The Progressive label is over simplification. It is being used as a scapegoat, a whipping boy by the opposition, the oligarchic wealth that participated in the grand scheme of things, just as much as the rest. These same influences still are happening, today.

There is a difference in the mix today. That is the think tank, owned and used to manipulate and astroturf control is nearly new, or should I say old ploys more sophisticated. They are quick to label and make their greedy agenda seem like a people's agenda, but when it ends up in congress, it is the same old influences trying to control and set human standards for monetary gain. Kill the voice of the union, control the schools to make workers not thinking, but ignorant citizens, make uniformity to control, make a buck. Think tanks get hundreds of millions to figure out ways to push agenda for profit. For example, schools are not for Social Studies and to make kids think for themselves, but to make workers these days. Who's idea was that? The answer is, who does that benefit? The laws in this state explicitly decree how each subject is to make kids think for themselves in the standards. This doesn't happen when it gets down to the kids in school. I've lost jobs teaching kids to think for themselves. Now, we have think tanks influencing state government to ban books, like "The People's History of the United States."

The point here is that if it makes a buck to squelch nudity, then there will be a squelch. If it makes a buck, or it helps to blow off steam, or is a distraction like a monty game, we’re safe. If it gets people in line and keeps people on top of the heap, if it is important enough, then we have anti-nudity laws and repression. Politicians like issues to get their base to rally behind. Wealth likes to use politicians and they will support them. 

We broke down many of these barriers to personal freedom starting with a burst in the late sixties, evolving and continuing, but there has always been the push back from the social/economic/cultural structures set in the Golden Age. When I see fat cats, or as they are popularly called "billionaires" making the changes that they do now, when I see oligarchy and continued the fascist melding of government and wealth, I feel threatened. But, culture now seems out of their control, particularly with the internet’s diversity. I see a soft spot. I see something that I can do. I see something that doesn’t end up playing into the game, something that is not astroturf. I see something that will benefit humanity. 
Jbee
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: HillwalkerDundee on March 01, 2019, 07:19:41 PM
One of the reasons why public nudity is legal in the UK is the weather. It is usually too cold and too wet that, although legal, it is rarely practised which means that it remains an activity of a tiny minority and therefore not a problem.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: MartinM on March 03, 2019, 09:08:19 AM
Interesting theory, but I doubt there is much truth in it. One of the reasons Britons are thought to be less keen on naturism is the weather, contributing to it being unusual and less tolerated than some other European countries although, again, it is probably more complicated than that.

In countries where naturism is more popular, it tends, for fairly obvious reasons, to be more tolerated - but this does suggest a starting point where public or mixed sex nudity was seen as wrong in the past, the general situation in Europe.

Nudity is also legal in Spain, a much warmer country, Germany, Austria and Switzerland as well to my knowledge.

It would be interesting to see a summary of the legal situation in different European countries, but the European Convention on Human Rights protects the the right to freedom of expression, so without a clear reason to ban it, it is usually only illegal as a matter of public order. Effective work by NAG and BN is the reason why the guidance now says that the Public Order Act should not be used against simple nudity.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: John P on March 03, 2019, 10:35:00 AM
French naturists frequently complain about the law there, because it's never certain when nudity will be prosecuted as "sexual exhibition". It's item 222-32 in the penal code. They're frustrated because naturists in the UK, Germany and Spain all have clearer laws and more benign enforcement.

Some years ago the canton of Appenzell in Switzerland banned public nudity, and the first case they prosecuted ended up going through several levels of appeal, but I think the defendant lost in the end. Anyway, if that canton had to pass a law, then presumably nudity is legal everywhere else in Switzerland.

I went on the Naked European Walking Tour in Austria in 2017, and at one point a man on a mountain bike pulled up beside us and delivered a long angry speech, of which I only caught the words "verboten" and "kinder" (that's "forbidden" and "children", so I think it's clear what his opinion was) but our leaders just told everyone not to worry. It was our last day, anyway.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: BlueTrain on March 03, 2019, 11:32:51 AM
That sounds to me like a good example of how things are not the way we think they are. Much of our reasoning is more in the nature of wishful thinking and making unwarranted assumptions of what people are thinking. We have no idea of what people think; only of what they do and even then, only when we actually see them.

Here's another example. I was hiking nude on the Appalachian Trail somewhere between Pennsylvania and North Carolina, to narrow it down, when I encountered a man coming in the other direction. He did not get upset but he warned me that a family was behind him somewhere (there was). There were indeed children in the group (without which I guess it isn't a family). But I have no idea what the man was thinking and I didn't ask. Chances are, I wouldn't have wanted to know.

On another occasion, however, I was sitting on a rock ledge not far away from there on another trip, sunning myself, bleaching out more likely, when a woman came out of the bushes. She actually apologized and left. But I still don't know what she was thinking, only what she did.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: Bob Knows on March 03, 2019, 02:45:21 PM
On another occasion, however, I was sitting on a rock ledge not far away from there on another trip, sunning myself, bleaching out more likely, when a woman came out of the bushes. She actually apologized and left. But I still don't know what she was thinking, only what she did.

That reminds me of one occasion when I was  hiking naked with my teen age sons on a trail through the Jemez Mountains in New Mexico.  We came around a corner and found a woman sitting on a large rock beside the trail.  She was maybe 30 years old.   As we neared her rock she said, "I wish I could do that."   

So I stopped to chat briefly to inquire about just what "that" was she was wishing she could do.  "Hike naked" she said, "I wish I could hike naked, it looks so free and natural."   I suggested that she could be naked as well as me, and she said she would never have the courage to do it.  I wished her "good day" and hurried to catch up to my sons who had continued off down the trail.  No apologies needed or given on either side.  . 

Bob
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: Peter S on March 03, 2019, 05:42:48 PM
I seem to recall the Appenzell ban John P mentions related to a path regularly used, even promoted, for nude hiking, and the locals took exception. They had to enact a bye-law to ban the practice as Swiss law neither allowed nor banned it and hikers were using the lack of a ban to say it was legal. Or something like that.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jbeegoode on March 03, 2019, 07:33:45 PM
French naturists frequently complain about the law there, because it's never certain when nudity will be prosecuted as "sexual exhibition". It's item 222-32 in the penal code. They're frustrated because naturists in the UK, Germany and Spain all have clearer laws and more benign enforcement.

Some years ago the canton of Appenzell in Switzerland banned public nudity, and the first case they prosecuted ended up going through several levels of appeal, but I think the defendant lost in the end. Anyway, if that canton had to pass a law, then presumably nudity is legal everywhere else in Switzerland.

I went on the Naked European Walking Tour in Austria in 2017, and at one point a man on a mountain bike pulled up beside us and delivered a long angry speech, of which I only caught the words "verboten" and "kinder" (that's "forbidden" and "children", so I think it's clear what his opinion was) but our leaders just told everyone not to worry. It was our last day, anyway.
I've been a long way from France for a long time, but while living there around 1965, I, as a 12 or 13 year old boy was accused of a crime, that I had no knowledge of. I had an interrogation with both an American military CID officer and a gendarme. It was like night and day. In France I was guilty until porven innocent. Assuming that French law is still like that, then vague statutes must be very intimidating.
Jbee
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: John P on March 03, 2019, 09:41:47 PM
JBG, I can imagine that the American investigator was very eager to prove that an American military dependent couldn't possibly have committed a crime in France. He didn't need to like you in order to do this! (In fact he probably thought you were a pest who was complicating his life.) The French officer might have had some anti-American politics driving him--wasn't it around then that France quit NATO? It's all about la gloire.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: BlueTrain on March 03, 2019, 10:10:38 PM
There seems to be the general assumption over here, stateside, that anyone arrested 'must' be guilty. But it's worse than that. All that is necessary for guilt to be assumed is to be accused. Or as the French would say, "J'accuse!"

The Swiss are quite local about things. It is a confederation and the cantons have more control over their own affairs, or so I understand. Each canton even has established official languages. There seems to be an absence of national government trying to standardize things as there are in other federally organized countries. So if enough people wanted to ban public nudity, there's nothing to stop them. That's democracy for you.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jmf on March 03, 2019, 11:09:29 PM
So if enough people wanted to ban public nudity, there's nothing to stop them. That's democracy for you.

It happened in a swiss canton:

"Hiking naked in Switzerland in the canton of Appenzell Rhodes-Intéreure will now be punishable by a fine of 200 chfr (132€ approximately).

On Sunday 26 April 2009, the citizens of the Eastern Switzerland Canton voted overwhelmingly in favour of making "hiking" an offence punishable ex officio. These mountains were in fact increasingly popular with German hikers."
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jbeegoode on March 03, 2019, 11:24:56 PM
The "crime" was spray painting something derogatory on the street outside a local busybodies window. I saw it and was reading it, "Ben Tarnel Suc..." It was incomplete. Then I find Ben yelling at me like it was my doing. He was an officer of some rank. It was in an American Military complex, a housing area where we lived.   

The bad cop French was in my face, but was a cooperative effort with the CID. Yes, De Gaul kicked NATO out soon after that, but I don't think that that mattered in this instance.

The military CID cop new that a disruptive child could look very bad on an officers record and that this could get me deported by my own government. He literally took the guy gently by the shoulders and told him to tone it down, stating that I was innocent until proven guilty. There were jurisdiction matters.

I was amazed how a kid prank was treated as a serious crime. I was amazed that I was questioned. I knew nothing.

The contrast made a big impression on me. I value that innocent until proven guilty dearly. It deeply troubles me to have had to watch this principle eroded in this country over the decades since. Conspiracy law, cop attitudes, search and seizure abuses, among others, have all but destroyed innocent until proven guilty.

So, as far as I know, French law is still like this in criminal matters. It was the assumed place for the French gendarme to come at me like that. I don't think that he was rogue, or loose. He was chosen to be a representative of the French government and act accordingly respectful and appropriately in the law. There is diplomacy and concern for international incidents between governments. You don't rock the boat if it might make a higher up uncomfortable. French and American matters were delicate back then. To the gendarme it was okay to treat suspects like that, let alone 12 year old kids.

I don't know if French law has changed for the better, but that was what was.

Maybe JMF can shed some light on this aspect of French law.
Jbee
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: John P on March 04, 2019, 01:04:14 AM
JBG, it's obvious that once De Gaulle heard about your crime and how an American officer helped cover it up, he decided on an independent military policy and the removal of American forces. At such a young age, you were already influencing global events!
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: John P on March 04, 2019, 05:35:12 AM
Here's a story from the website for the French outdoor naturist club APNEL:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.apnel.fr%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fid%3D1314

The translation is more or less comprehensible, but note that the word "relaxed" should be "released" or "exonerated".

And one from the British press (which I found on the APNEL site):
https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/17458022.naked-penketh-cyclist-defended-by-british-naturism/?fbclid=IwAR1zfWSoYmc46movxLQOPHkaKpuInm4JGHoWe7Z1-WjCF7pyqgp9Y5y3RKY
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jbeegoode on March 05, 2019, 07:42:59 AM
JBG, it's obvious that once De Gaulle heard about your crime and how an American officer helped cover it up, he decided on an independent military policy and the removal of American forces. At such a young age, you were already influencing global events!

!!! By Golly, You just might be on to something!!!

Perhaps the straw that broke the camel's back.
Jbee ;D
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: Peter S on March 05, 2019, 11:24:08 AM
Thanks for the Warrington cyclist link, John P. Notably the newspaper gave far more space to the BN explanation than to the initial report.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jbeegoode on March 05, 2019, 09:26:54 PM
I couldn't read the Warrington cyclist linkarticle without giving up my privacy to cookies.
Jbee
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jbeegoode on June 26, 2019, 06:41:55 PM
The guy who is the main thrust for this movement thing is now running for president on the issue.

I'm not sure what to think about that. Good, bad, any press is good. Is it self promotion, or naturist promotion?

https://naked2020rallies.com/contact-us
 
https://www.change.org/p/public-nudity-should-be-exempt-from-penal-laws/u/24706317?cs_tk=Ainh8e3wU4qQE-T9CF0AAXicyyvNyQEABF8BvG6lk56A7Zw7iy8cNuItq_A%3D&utm_campaign=2c85b204fbac489e949a63553457b05b&utm_medium=email&utm_source=petition_update&utm_term=cs

Jbee
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: nuduke on June 29, 2019, 10:51:26 PM

Well you've got to admire his cohones, being naked in public to make his point.  It costs millions to get elected, probably out of his reach.  However, if he can make the point about body freedom by campaigning...then good luck to him.  Really bad videos!  However, not a mention of the word nudity or naturism etc.  That's quite clever but doesn't clearly state what the demands/policies are.  Amongst the video clips I saw are one where he is campaigning from the shower.  That does seem a tiny bit odd as a forum for a presidential candidate. :)   I wish him well.  Can't be much worse than Trump!

John
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: eyesup on July 09, 2019, 01:24:32 AM
Bare-body Freedom guy running for president? Well I guess so.
Running for president in America has been a form of protest and/or advocacy for decades. It gives you a platform (although for some candidates, verrry short) to announce your agenda to the country and have the news organizations listen. Until they decide you aren’t worth the effort.

But it’s an American tradition I support and think is great.

Duane
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jbeegoode on July 11, 2019, 07:52:08 PM
News organizations listen? The only candidates that they pay any attention to anymore must be of the two political parties.

At least he is trying and drawing some little attention to the issue.

It's like that (see I forgot her name) Democratic candidate, the book writer, who tried to mention how the food industry is creating the healthcare crisis, by selling stuff that isn't food, or is low quality food, and even hidden poison, making sure that people get sick. Her remarks were washed away, ignored. The media wants to address healthcare, but not address health. The eye is on the excitement of the horse race and ignoring the issues. The mindset is "them against us", vote against someone out of fear, and ignore the issues, or why we are supposed to be voting "for" someone. It keeps the process ignorant, more middle of the road and more manageable for the party ruler's agenda.

It is of concern to me that what is seen is only an eccentric, that nudity is seen as only eccentric, and as unrealistic as to think that he might take the energy and win. Still, personally, I think that he would make a better and more relevant president than nine out of ten of the party candidates that I see...maybe 28 out of the thirty....
Jbee
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: BlueTrain on July 11, 2019, 09:14:48 PM
Upton Sinclair published "The Jungle" in 1906.

I probably have a worse diet than anyone here, yet I don't get sick. I have no idea what the quality of my food is. I have become cynical of all claims regarding food. I used to say that organic food means only that it contains no petroleum products but I believe I was mistaken. One could subsist on so-called fast food (I did for several years) and thrive. I even worked in a fast food place for years, too. What you can buy in such places is as pure as it can be. A lot of people, however, would be repulsed at having to dig up out of the ground what they eat, much less slaughter an animal for the meat.

The chief problem anyone has with food is that they don't get enough but others make up for it. The chief problem with health care in some places is that people have no insurance and there are no doctors and no hospitals. That is not to say there are no other problems with health care (or health insurance).

Regarding politics, I don't want any radicals in office. So you can put me down in the middle. Where the middle is depends on where the extreme ends happen to be at any given moment.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jbeegoode on July 12, 2019, 03:30:12 AM
When I subsisted on fast food, I got sick, I got dull, my face broke out, and I was barely out of my teens. This was back when fast food actually had some minor nutritional values like 50 years ago. When I got some actual food, things changed like night and day. There is plenty of science out there to refute the outrageous claim that you just made.

"What you can buy in such places is as pure as it can be." Maybe, but pure what?

BT, did you get up on the wrong side of bed today? This is the third post that I've found myself defending my stuff in concern of your posts. Oh well, It's okay to disagree.

The middle is no longer dictated by the extreme ends. It is determined by the perception of those that interpret the news and control the dialog. The middle is an illusion concocted by a network of ideologies that boil down to making money by undermining democracy.

To me, the status quo isn't working, isn't democratic, or just. It is exploitative, so my opinion is that it is a time for change, not slowly going downhill like a lobster in increasingly hot water, in the middle of the pot.
Jbee
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: BlueTrain on July 12, 2019, 11:12:11 AM
If you expect me to always agree, this will no longer be a forum with a free exchange of ideas. There should be, shall we say, no control of the dialog.

So to continue.

What I mean by where the middle is, being determined by where the extreme ends are, is that that the location on the spectrum is relative. In other words, the middle, or the moderates, is not extreme. Money does not necessarily have anything to do with it, although the influence of money in politics is clearly not just an issue but a serious problem. It's called corruption. I don't know what you mean by a network of ideologies but making money, and lots of it, is the whole point of everything to some people. Maybe a lot of people. There are no moral limits to those people.

But make no mistake; not everything is about money.

I like to point out that all countries were and have been democracies. The only difference is in who gets to vote. In some places, even kings were elected. I realize, however, there has been a trend away from that in places like China, Russia and North Korea. I worry that it is possible here. The problem with for-life leaders is one of succession, except of course in North Korea.

If you wanted really pure and old-fashioned food, you'd like to visit an Amish farmer's market. But you might be dismayed at what pure and old-fashioned food is and you might not like those selling it.

Now what was the outrageous claim that I made. True, I was talking about when I actually worked in fast food (we didn't call it that) but that was fifty years ago. I'm sorry that it made you ill. The French fries were pure, plain potatoes. We even had a potato peeler. Nothing was grilled (where I worked); it was broiled. Everything else was just like you yourself could buy in the supermarket today, although I do wonder where you buy your food and what you actually eat. But just like me, I doubt you want anyone telling you what to eat or how much, no matter who it is.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: nuduke on July 12, 2019, 04:51:35 PM

Whilst not wanting to come between you two in the matter of what constitutes the middle (and don't get me started on averages, means and modes), I will venture to add to the fast food and nutrition question.
I agree with BT, purity, cleanliness and quality in fast food is not in doubt and none of the types of fast food are inherently bad.  However, as per Morgan Spurlock's argument in the film Super Size Me, it is the balance of the diet that can be deleterious to health.  And this is, as I understand it, always associated with repetitive and prolonged consumption and./or overconsumption.  If you eat 3 meals a day with a bakery item or ice cream afterwards at a fast food outlet that sells burgers or pizzas or chicken (no names no pack drill, eh?  ;) ) and full sugar coke, you are going to put on weight and the balance of secondary nutrients such as vitamins, minerals and roughage in your diet are likely to be adversely affected.  And that is what I think Jbee describes from his own experience, I feel.  And extreme diet issues aren't confined just to fast food eaters.  Strict Vegans can suffer from deficiencies of VitB12, Iron, VitD and Iodine.  Body builders can suffer from bad cholesterol based circulatory damage due to the amount of fatty meat they eat and I understand that their high protein diet doesn't half give them constipation! 
So, as in everything, balance, variety and moderation in nutrition is the way to go.
John
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: eyesup on July 12, 2019, 07:13:30 PM
News (sic) organizations do listen, until they decide to ignore you. If you don’t fall in line to the propaganda du jour, they just attempt to discredit. There is no-longer any desire or preference for healthy disagreement.

Quote from: Jbee
It is of concern to me that what is seen is only an eccentric, that nudity is seen as only eccentric . .

When I see someone in public that is wearing so little that you are aware that it wouldn’t take much to be completely nude, I try to determine if that is a normal look for them or if they are trying to see if they are causing a reaction. If the latter, I do choose to see them as merely trying to attract attention. Usually you can tell if they are watching to see others reaction.

But seeing someone clearly dressed only out of necessity is, for me a normal thing. I do the same. I dress only as much as needed dependant on where I am going to be. It’s more simple that way. When I see that, I wonder what it would be like without having the clothing requirements.

Duane
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: BlueTrain on July 13, 2019, 01:22:48 PM
Concerning food again, one can be grossly overweight and never eat at a fast food place. But the comment about super-size me is certainly true, even more so in regular restaurants. I don't know about trendy restaurants that charge twice as much for half the food, though. In any event, as long as people feed themselves, nobody else can be blamed. Can fat be outlawed? Did it work for alcohol? Is tobacco worse than marijuana? I worked on a tobacco farm one summer and I know what it's like to handle tobacco. Bob Newhart did a hilarious routine about talking (on the phone, of course) to Sir Walter Raleigh about the newly introduced tobacco. "You do what with it?"

It should not be taken as granted that people who are on the heavy side (not 'grossly overweight') are unhealthy. In fact, they may even be stronger than the average person, if that means anything. There is a reason football players don't look like marathon runners. I don't know which lives the longest but that's not the object in either game. Thoreau said that when it came time to die, he didn't want to discover that he hadn't lived. But I've lived over 25 years longer than he did, so I take things he said with a grain of salt.

And speaking of salt, frequent references are made about sodium in food products. This produce contains no sodium. I should hope not! Hopefully it won't contain any chlorine either. But salt is not sodium. Nobody goes to the store to buy a bag of sodium.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: Bob Knows on July 13, 2019, 04:43:51 PM
We are living through the first time in all of human history where people suffer from too much food, and too little exercise. For the past million years food was produced or gathered only by expenditure of a great deal of human labor. It was expensive.  Famine was always a worry. The medieval cold times caused global famines that resulted in death of around 1/4 of all Europeans. The immediate cause of death was some illness or other but they were dying because they were half starved.  Even in "good" times like the Roman Empire their slaves suffered from a chronic lack of food. And now, for the first time ever, our "problem" is obesity.  Our bodies evolved to store any extra food we manage to obtain, but now we have machines cultivating and distributing our crops. The extra cost of "supersize me" is trivial for much of our population.

And exercise?  That's become a fancy gym rather than survival. People who hunted or farmed their own food had a cost of body energy to obtain more.  Now we sit at desks and ride in motor vehicles rather than working and walking.  Rather than complaining we ought to be thankful for the abundance our science has created for us. Having plenty of food is a lot more important than what food we have.  Being able to turn away any food because we don't like that kind is an unimaginable luxury that a million years of our ancestors couldn't even dream of.

We are designed to retain and store any extra food we get.  Many people end up eating more than we need, especially when we don't have to do actual work all day. And who can say that war or tech failure will never bring another famine that makes them the survivors.  Often the large people are more healthy, and the wolves are always prowling around just out of sight.
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: jbeegoode on July 13, 2019, 06:26:12 PM
All true, but I'm thinking over simplified.

We have lots of structures in our bodies left over from hunter gatherers. Then, we had farming going on, which provided nutrition in abundance. The social order and greed kept people starving and ill nourished, as it does today in much of the world. Science provided machines toward abundance. Diversity was increased  by the Booker T's of the world, but these days, it has gone too far and is out of touch with the natural real food system. For example, we began to eat more grain along the way and depend on it, then we began to eat too much of it and not enough of the other goodness that we need.

Personally, I'm working at creating more exertion and focus on food in my life. Just tweaking the old ways, not throwing the babies out with the bath water. Growing it in good soil, taking time to create nutritious and fun eating, doing it right. SO far, It is of great benefit. I'm getting noticeably younger and healthier from my former self.

Yea, in my life, I have had access to better education and food and unimaginable luxuries than most of the great royalty of history. I have airconditioning, diverse food, amazing transportation. I've been fat and happy, but I have noticed a price for this relatively sudden change in historical human lifestyle. There is a balance of our nature and nature and these advantages that needs to be found.
Jbee
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: nuduke on July 20, 2019, 02:37:37 PM
Picking up Bob's points, it is sobering that civilisation has proceeded at a far faster rate than evolution such that we are still at core in metabolism and structure the same hunter gatherers and bare subsistence farmers that we were 100,000 to 50.000 years ago.  Our current obese, ill exercised frames are, as Bob indicates, suffering the side effects of better agronomy, leisure and technological advances.  If you look at our lives from an odd angle you sort of conclude that we live to make ourselves ill and live too long so that the latter part of our lives has a high chance of being lived in suffering and decline.  What would n extra terrestrial conclude from observing us?  Were we sensible or stupid to become the masters of our planet.

Mind you, 100.000 years ago life was probably pretty nasty brutish and short and spent in hard labour and danger of disease injury, sepsis and wild animals.
Maybe we are better off today?
Cheery subject eh?
John
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: BlueTrain on July 20, 2019, 05:15:14 PM
"and live too long"

How long should we live for it to be about right, then?
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: nuduke on July 20, 2019, 05:38:52 PM
The length is determined by the ability to exist in good health, mental well being and sufficient physical strength for a comfortable life (however you define that!).  My definition of too long is years spent enfeebled and incapable, in disability and dementia.  Even 400 years ago Shakespeare recognised this problem of the dysfunctional imprisonment of old age:
"Last scene of all
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,

Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything."

As you like it A2 Sc7
John
Title: Re: The Bare Body Freedom Movement via Change.org
Post by: BlueTrain on July 20, 2019, 10:27:02 PM
It's that way for some, to be sure, but it certainly isn't for others. My wife's family is long-lived, at least on her mother's side. Her mother lived to be 97 and we were disappointed that she didn't make it to 100, which a first cousin of hers did, and in pretty good shape, too.

I realize also that discussions like this are not things younger people (people in their 60s, for instance) want to read and others (not here) have mentioned that, too. Nevertheless, 'good health' is a relative thing, relative to, perhaps, expectations. Mental well-being need not have anything to do with age, which I say based on everyone I've ever known. If someone is a pain to be around when they're 40, they certainly won't be any different when they're 80. Physical strength is one thing; but physical abilities is something else. I guess I shouldn't go into that, however, but I'm not talking about skills.

From the more or less standpoint of this forum, I think the important thing, health-wise, is simply to keep physically active, as far as you are able, and naturally within the limitations of your circumstances. That's hardly a secret or anything knew but there sure is a lot of nonsense out there about it, mostly with the goal of selling someone something. So, get up and go take a hike. There is no danger involved, the cost is minimal and if you go by yourself, you go whenever you please, wherever you want and stay as long as you like. That phrase may need to be modified for those who are married, of course. Anyway, people were saying this more than a hundred years ago. A few things have changed since then, it goes without saying. There is less pollution in some places, especially in the cities, going somewhere is easier, and we don't seem to have the bad winters that everyone used to talk about. You don't even have to go to the woods, either, which are scarce in some places. Some cities have wonderful places for long walks, too, although you probably can't be nude.

The main thing is to live longer than Thoreau did, so you can laugh at everything he said.