Free Range Naturism

Naturism => Free Range Naturism => Topic started by: Naturistplace on February 15, 2019, 10:43:21 AM

Title: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 15, 2019, 10:43:21 AM
It seems about time to make this a separate topic (continuing from Fear of Nudity)

See the later posts in Fear of Nudity for the related comments.

The problem is that making something - such as naturism - viral isn't easy. It takes effort of the part of various people, as well as favorable circumstances.

This article from Australia shows a good example of successfully going viral:  https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/wtf/why-millennials-keep-getting-naked-in-public/news-story/c037f37c6f0d83808b584e0e78b82750 (https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/wtf/why-millennials-keep-getting-naked-in-public/news-story/c037f37c6f0d83808b584e0e78b82750) (Why millennials keep getting naked in public)

What factors made this go viral? Here are just a few guesses. First, there was one person behind it initially. But he managed, evidently with a sustained effort, to get people to post naturist pictures of themselves on Instagram - which isn't easy, since IG is owned by Facebook, and doesn't allow frontal nudity. So most of the pictures were taken from behind. Apparently that's acceptable. Also, since the pictures usually don't show faces, people are OK doing it, since they can't be identified (easily). The pictures are mostly outdoors in scenic places. Everyone looks like they're having a great time. (The stereotyped poses convey that.) The message that being naked outdoors is really fun is a big incentive. Fortunately, the message is also true. Since the target group is "millennials", who are young (became adults in 2000-2009 or so), those pictured usually have "attractive" bodies, but body acceptance is also promoted. 

The real trick was getting the first few hundred pictures. There are, as of this writing, amost 2000 pictures. Also there are (at least) 229,000 "followers", whatever that means. Not bad, but the question is how many actually continue doing naturist things. Australia is fortunate to have some clothing optional beaches near populous areas - and a rather warm summer climate. It's no surprise that looking at pictures of reasonably attractive naked people is popular. Only a few of all those followers will submit their own pictures, of course, and fewer still will become active naturists. But there's clearly a monkey see-monkey do thing going on. When people see this sort of thing happening in "real life", they will at least ask themselves whether they should try it themselves. Just reading arguments why naturism is great isn't quite enough.

Could this work in the U. S.? Hard to say. It could work in states like Florida, Texas, Arizona, California, etc. But someone, or a few someones, must take the initiative to get it started.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: John P on February 15, 2019, 11:39:55 AM
So many things wrong. This isn't naturism, it's exhibitionism/voyeurism. If it had any validity, it would belong in the General Naturism section. And it's already been mentioned there, under "Nudes in the News".

Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: BlueTrain on February 15, 2019, 12:24:45 PM
I notice the word "rebranding" was used. I never cared for the way that word (brand or branding) has been used lately. Maybe my vocabulary is out of date.

I also notice among the photos that nobody looked to be my age (72) and that most, but not all, had white butts (whitetails!). So, the whole thing looks to be more of a lark than anything else.

What's a 'naturist thing" anyway other than not wearing clothes whenever possible. It isn't like nudists do things other people don't do, other than call themselves normal and everyone else abnormal and textile-compulsive, which sounds mildly arrogant. After all, they say, there's a small tribe somewhere in Central Africa and another in New Guinea that go naked, at least the men do, so why doesn't everyone? That's the stuff you hear. There needs to be more persuasive language than that.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 15, 2019, 08:34:01 PM
"I also notice among the photos that nobody looked to be my age (72)"

Of course. This is all about what young people are doing. By the age of 72 almost everyone has decided whether or not they're interested in naturism. (And they've probably never heard of Instagram either.)

"most, but not all, had white butts (whitetails!)"

Of course. This is all about people trying naturism for the first time. Aren't we interested in new people trying it?

"the whole thing looks to be more of a lark than anything else."

Of course. Merriam-Webster: "lark: a source of or quest for amusement or adventure" Is there something wrong with that?

Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: John P on February 15, 2019, 09:49:49 PM
I went and took a look at the Facebook page, rather than what the newspaper said about it, and actually it does seem that they had some good intentions,  but they've ended up disappointed. They posted the item below (in italics) on Jan 31.

Out in the textile world, the expectation about nudity is that there will be lots of pictures of young women (no BlueTrain, you aren't welcome) presented for men to look at. That's how it's been for the last few centruries in everything from great art to the nastiest pornography, and it's the way many people think things should continue. I believe that naturists need to recognize this (mis)usage of nudity when we see it, and try to offer an alternative. One thing we should be saying is that we need to accept the diversity of human bodies--cute babes along with BlueTrain!

We will be taking a break from posting our user generated content on Facebook and seriously considering if we will ever be back.

Our page has become a playground for blokes to have perve on girls and inform the world which bum they like the most and how much they would just love to be there in the photo with them. It’s weird. It’s creepy. We’re over it.

We called for support from other good hearted members of our community to post encouraging things, to call out the bad behavior and we thank the people that have done that. However it hasn’t been enough.

As such, postings on this page will now be limited to blog posts and event notifications.

Apologies to all of our kind hearted followers who see the true beauty and fun in each of our photos, I hope we’ll be back at some point.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 15, 2019, 10:47:55 PM
Several quick things.

1. What I wanted to point out in the post was an example of how to make naturist ideas viral. It might be objected that could easily be done by showing lots more pictures of naked women rather than men. But that's not the case here. (See next point)

2. I haven't counted every picture on the IG page (~2000 total), but it sure seems close to 50-50 men and women.

3. This doesn't seem to be an example of men deliberately posting pictures of naked women that were found somewhere. Instead, unless this is a deliberate hoax, almost all the women are (a) posing voluntarily with the intention of their picture being shown, and (b) new to naturism and not paid models (white tails).

4. Facebook nudist/naturist groups are notorious for a preponderance of naked men posting pictures of themselves. If any of that is "pervy", it's the men. But this IG thing is dramatically different.

5. Quite a few of the pictures are very lighthearted and humorous. Most seem to be having a really good time. If you saw any half dozen of these pictures in a naturist publication, they would not seem at all out of place. (Except for how few faces are shown.) Compare to most of the naked men on Facebook.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Bob Knows on February 16, 2019, 02:09:02 AM
I'm going to suggest that many women post nude photos on more sexually oriented sites.   Maybe "non-sexual" naturism isn't sexy enough to get women to post photos.

I moved to MeWe after Facebook jail and I find that a lot of Tumblr porn has moved to MeWe.  MUCH OF IT is amateur horny women posting their sexual or nude photos.   MeWe has pages like "Kama Sutra,"  "skanks and wanks,"  "Autumn's private page,"  "Dirty Public," and bunches more.    "Dirty Public" is about mostly women lifting skirts and showing their crotches in public places, often with other people in the background.   

I haven't made any attempt to count the number of sites and women but it appears to be a never ending stream of women who want to show off.  It reminds me of a story I read once about a photographer in Denver who wanted nude models.  He put a small ad in a local paper and had over 800 women show up at his door, all wanting to be photographed naked.   

What @Naturistplace observed about  Australians is that all those women seem to just want to show off.   It may take more sexual content to get women excited.  Maybe ordinary nudism is too boring. 

This may be entirely wrong, but there is a never ending stream of naked women on amateur porn sites.  Far more than on nude sites.   What do you guys think? 

Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 16, 2019, 04:03:31 AM
Several quick things.

1. What I wanted to point out in the post was an example of how to make naturist ideas viral. It might be objected that could easily be done by showing lots more pictures of naked women rather than men. But that's not the case here. (See next point)

2. I haven't counted every picture on the IG page (~2000 total), but it sure seems close to 50-50 men and women.

3. This doesn't seem to be an example of men deliberately posting pictures of naked women that were found somewhere. Instead, unless this is a deliberate hoax, almost all the women are (a) posing voluntarily with the intention of their picture being shown, and (b) new to naturism and not paid models (white tails).

4. Facebook nudist/naturist groups are notorious for a preponderance of naked men posting pictures of themselves. If any of that is "pervy", it's the men. But this IG thing is dramatically different.

5. Quite a few of the pictures are very lighthearted and humorous. Most seem to be having a really good time. If you saw any half dozen of these pictures in a naturist publication, they would not seem at all out of place. (Except for how few faces are shown.) Compare to most of the naked men on Facebook.
Ditto NAturistplace. These are a pile pics of young people having fun...naked. Yea, they are posing, but they are doing it in a fun active context and with their friends. This is more than "Le Liberte de Fesse" website posted people getting away with butts at national treasures. This is some 2000 shots of young people having a blast and okay to be exposed to an extent. DF and I went a couple of years before faces appeared on our site, with a lot of backsides and tricks to hide identity, like hat brims, reflections, on and on (it was a challenge and fun). The fact that they can be anonymous is just what many, or most, needed to participate in this activity. I think that if they hadn't had the purpose of the site, they probably wouldn't have gotten naked at all. Many of those would still have inhibitions without having some peer pressure to allow then to experience the fact that naked ain't such a horrible deal and quite fun. Let us remember the wisdom of Larry, "INCREMENTALISM,"...amen!

Today, anonymous butts, tomorrow, no prob with a pic between friends, or friends naked together, in normality.

A few got naked and bathed at Woodstock, were seen by millions and suddenly a significant number of those millions were experimenting with this cool thing. How many saw "Life Magazine" or the Woodstock album and thought, "hmm, looks fun." 224,000 followers means a million or more stopping in every so often. What, 2500 or 3500 participated? Yea, I'd bet for many it was just a lark, but they did it, and it didn't hurt and they know that.

There were some dits making judgemental comments like targets at a turkey shoot. Many probably crude. Too many to count, disappointing the blogger. I'd bet that that same thing went on when the photos were done. Girls comparing the "packages" and guys well, "checking it out" all curious. People comparing notes in their minds of other experiences with nudes is natural. Many were thinking, "everybody is flawed!", "Don't we look silly,"  "What a lowly imperfect crew we are," "teehee hee!" and "Wow, this is liberating, I'm not so pitiful." I just hope that when something happens like this here, like this summer, that I will be cool enough to know about it. I'd certainly troll the site and contradict and educate those rude comments. I'd set aside my time for that, to be the naked shadowy voice of reason and naturists philosophy.

On my site, about every ten comments that I get, some new ignorant doof, usually thinks that it is okay to compliment DF's body and it is laughable that some have appeared to be trying to do it politely. I'm sayin that these goofs are not so many as very vocal and just don't know any better. Many pics do show a lark atmosphere, these are not naturists for the most part, it is spontaneous. It is not surprising that a bloke sitting with a beer in his chair has no other reference than some drunken exhibit, or a wet tee shirt contest. They are responding honestly to what they perceive as what is going on in the pics and in some of those pics it is going on. It is all good. This is better than tunblr stolen shots attempting to be natural. These are natural bodies. These are peers.

It is up to us to educate when we see it. Those comments are an opportunity, not a problem.
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 16, 2019, 04:41:13 AM
1.) Over at the "fear of nudity" thread, There was a comment about critical mass in social revolution, or cultural change. I was talking about influences that a sub-culture can make on the mass culture.

I compared it to a wave and a beach. The strength creating the wave, how steep the embankment, how easy the water can seep into the sand.

We were discussing the 60's influence and the change the "hippies" made as an example.

Back then, we were seeing a war with a support from WWII mindset, a culture of defense and a military industrial complex as the steep bank on the beach.  We pushed through to make passable long hair and individuality to an extent, but also civil rights, change came to women who were still stuck in the 50's and home and subservient, psychotropic drugs, all manner of sissy style, men could have feelings and cry, daddy's daughters having free sex, and many other very steep taboos. Nudity was easy out of the batch.

These days, we have seen homosexuality getting not just a stamp of approval, but protection. Naked is all around, but generally tinged with sex, now. It seems to me that learning that we are just too inhibited about being seen without coverings on a small section of our bodies is a pretty flat slope, a penetrable sand type, and all that is needed is the wake of an exciting boat, a not very big exciting boat. This one should be easy in comparison to the 60's changes.

2.) Desexualization of nude bodies is a key. How to get that behavior in politically correct mode is tricky. Old habits die with difficulty. Women's lib, metoo, psychological professional community (I hear the DSM-?? newest has ceased to define exhibitionism and voyeurism as disorders), people just looking for good clean fun, people in the closet, just wanting to come out could all be allies and boats to latch onto, to up the wake and wave.

3.) I've joined a Meetup group with the intention of scouting and networking to lead DF and me to places and trails that I can visit later naked. I thought to be cautious bringing up nude hiking, but I am forgetting a major point. Most people on the trail are accepting and gracious. They are prime to talk about nude hiking and then body freedom...converts....
I have been sick for nearly two months off and on, sitting in crappy weather that normally belongs in another state, and nailed down to the house. I hope that this spring, I'll be engaging that plan some. Perhaps, when DF goes with her women's group to Morocco.....
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: BlueTrain on February 16, 2019, 02:06:01 PM
Even though I have a gay relative by way of my wife and went to their well-attended, including many children, celebration of their marriage (not the wedding, though, which they chose to keep small because of logistical difficulties), I wouldn't say that homosexuality has received a stamp of approval in spite of what you see on television. It isn't a problem for me, though, because I have not yet received the power to approve of disapprove. Mox nix.

Without having looked at the link a second time, the impression remains that nudism is a young adult activity, with emphasis on 'adult.'
Of course, posting photos of nude children would be a terrible no-no, even if you make the claim that children are natural nudists. Yes, the photos are posed. That's what usually happens when photos are taken. That doesn't create any falsehoods. There is undoubtedly a sexual element to the photos, though, which would probably be present even if everyone were wearing swimwear. Sexual attraction is normal, like it or not, which begs the question, can nudity be non-sexual. Given what many people look like, no doubt about it. But good luck with desexualizing human bodies, clothed or unclothed. The idea here, I think, is to get public nudity acceptable, if not with a stamp of approval, at least in naturally appropriate places at first. Which would be the beach, swimming pools and possibly gyms. As you know, gym or gymnasium derives ultimately from the Greek word meaning naked. There used to be something called gymnosophy, which of late has been trampled under the banner of body acceptance.

Let yourself go.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 16, 2019, 09:59:01 PM
I'm going to suggest that many women post nude photos on more sexually oriented sites.   Maybe "non-sexual" naturism isn't sexy enough to get women to post photos.

[deletions]

I haven't made any attempt to count the number of sites and women but it appears to be a never ending stream of women who want to show off.

[deletions]

What @Naturistplace observed about  Australians is that all those women seem to just want to show off.   It may take more sexual content to get women excited.  Maybe ordinary nudism is too boring. 

This may be entirely wrong, but there is a never ending stream of naked women on amateur porn sites.  Far more than on nude sites.   What do you guys think?

"I'm going to suggest that many women post nude photos on more sexually oriented sites.   Maybe "non-sexual" naturism isn't sexy enough to get women to post photos."

It's not always easy to figure out who posts the pictures on the "sexually oriented sites". Could be the women themselves or whoever took the picture. In any case, there's not much doubt about the orientation of most visitors to such sites. Likewise - surprise - many men, too, "post nude photos on more sexually oriented sites". Not much doubt about the orientation of visitors to those sites either.

And in any case, the site originally under discussion was a non-sexual naturist site (a particular Instagram account). Unless, that is, one considers any pictures of naked people to be "sexual". Should either women or men be under suspicion of... something... for letting their pictures be there? Or for not letting their pictures be there? The ratio was close to 50-50 after all. Or is it only the women whose pictures are there that are under suspicion? So confusing...

"I haven't made any attempt to count the number of sites and women but it appears to be a never ending stream of women who want to show off."

Women often make the point, and I think it's valid, that there are questions frequently raised (or merely wondered about) regarding how they dress and their possible motives. There was a news story just yesterday about the Governor of Michigan (a woman). In response to news reports about the way she had been dressed for an official government speech, she tweeted "Boys have teased me about my curves since 5th grade." What prompted this was a report about comments on social media that said things like “she’s showing off her cans” and “I’d hit it.” The point here is that women continually have to put up with questions raised about their intentions for dressing the way they do - even if it's well within norms, let alone in a naturist context.

"What @Naturistplace observed about  Australians is that all those women seem to just want to show off.   It may take more sexual content to get women excited.  Maybe ordinary nudism is too boring."

I don't think I made any such observation "that all those women seem to just want to show off". I did say the pictures were "lighthearted and humorous". I also said the women had "the intention of their picture being shown". I. e., they expected and thought it was good for the picture to be shown - because it displays an approval of nudity, not exhibitionism. (Naturists are too often accused of the latter.) Interpreting that as "showing off" might be an example of the point I made just above. And the pictures in question were in a nudist/naturist context. Which contradicts the notion that "ordinary nudism is too boring" for the women. But it seems that women get criticized no matter what.

"there is a never ending stream of naked women on amateur porn sites.  Far more than on nude sites"

Huh? "naked women on amateur porn sites"? What a surprise. There are also a lot of naked women at strip clubs too. Imagine that! Now, if you substitute "men" for "women" the same things are true. It's just that the audiences are different. And are there naked women on "nude sites" (naturist I presume)? The complaint I see most often (from naturists) is that the pictures at such sites are mostly of women. It seems - again - that women get criticized no matter what.


Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Bob Knows on February 16, 2019, 10:36:18 PM
Women often make the point, and I think it's valid, that there are questions frequently raised (or merely wondered about) regarding how they dress and their possible motives. There was a news story just yesterday about the Governor of Michigan (a woman). In response to news reports about the way she had been dressed for an official government speech, she tweeted "Boys have teased me about my curves since 5th grade."


You are right.  Its a valid question.  Even the Governor is apparently still deliberately dressing to raise questions.  Human psychology is very complex, and the motives of females are not well understood. 


Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 17, 2019, 07:52:30 PM
Even the Governor is apparently still deliberately dressing to raise questions.  Human psychology is very complex.

"Human psychology is very complex."

Yes, absolutely.

"the motives of females are not well understood."

Yes, again. But that's exactly as true of the motives of males. Females and males are equally human. The psychologies of both are equally complex and difficult to understand.

That said, isn't it a problem to assume that all (or most) females have similar motives even in the narrow sphere of naturism? And equally a problem regarding the motives of males?

Best way to proceed? I'd say that would be to consider the varying motives (and fears and other relevant factors) of people in general with respect to naturism. That's what makes promoting naturism tricky - the message has to be tailored for different cases. (Including many where the conclusion is "don't bother".) And if one simply wants to enjoy naturism without promoting it to others, that's fine too (as long as you're satisfied with your current options).
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 17, 2019, 09:39:54 PM
I've been thinking about women's liberation, today. For a woman to be truly liberated, her humanity must also be liberated. There comes a point where a woman's issues become the same as issues faced by both genders. It follows that a truly liberated woman must be liberated from not only sexist men's affronts, but women's sexist affronts. This thing about the Governor of Michigan brings this back to my mind.

Here, we are discussing nudity and sexualization of the entire species. There are double standards to consider. Men's breasts are free, innocuous. Women's are sexualized, deemed obscene, judged to a standard of beauty, even criticized for not upholding those standards of beauty. The owner is discounted and even dismissed for breast, they can be the wrong look, they can be "exposed" instead of just seen, and that act alone can eliminate the owner, define the owner, have the owner rejected in several ways. Showing too much, or too little can make or break a career in a moment, it still can be used by, or against a Governor.

In the early 1970's there was a period when liberation from the shackles of a bra put an end to much of this. Bras were publicly burned  in protest and rebellion from status quo structures. It was empowering. It was a symbolic statement of defiance. It was a liberation. Women's breast were okayed in any size and shape. Women were proud and accepted their natural beauty, whether they jiggled as she walked, or were evident when the lady bent over and they separated from her blouse. It was body acceptance. The nipple was pushing out it was a fact of life. Where I lived, they were so prevalent, that they became a norm. Nipples were a curiosity, not so much a sexual titillation. Women and men were both celebrating female breasts. Who before had seen so many, who could know that such fascinating  variety could exist? Women lost their fears and shame for not having huge bullets like the movies. Nobody stuffed their bras anymore. Nobody had to hide, or to lie. I remember young women, proudly, defiantly coming out without Kleenex in their bras for the first time and defiantly stating, "No more." That was a cool thing to do.

Still there was a persistence of ideal bodies. Men and women had to compete for the attentions of desirable mates. Still, there was the lack of liberation of the bottom and genitals that both sexes had to deal with. Still, there was law and social confinement and shame.

It was a step, a powerful step, toward full body liberation and social equality of genders. With such news making bravado and context changing, revolutionary change, it worked. I would like to see nudity hitch a ride on another humanity liberating bandwagon. A woman, or a man who has to hide her, or his body, for all of the wrong reasons, is not free, will not be equal and is in fact dehumanized in more than just a physical context.

The thing was...somewhere, somebody crapped out. Women, who should have been leading us further, chickened out. Bras, shame and subjugation are still here. Women felt as sex objects again with their breast freed. They seemed to forget what it symbolized to dump bras. A woman in business, or career, wanted to be sexless. She didn't feel taken seriously by being any kind of sexy. She stopped celebrating her humanity, because she denigrated her body and the nature of sexuality.

They are breasts, it's just a body, take a look and get over your curiosity, so we can move on.


What I'm thinking today, is women can't be liberated, they can't be equals, unless we all are liberated, from social and legal coersions   and attitudes and habits. By self awareness. It will be confusing and messy. It will take extremes before balance to shake down our silliness.
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: BlueTrain on February 17, 2019, 11:20:15 PM
It might be said that none of us will be truly free until we cease to be attracted to other people. Only then will bodies and how they look be important. Unless we become anchorite hermits, that will only happen when we no longer recognize another person as being male or female, young or old and even clothed or unclothed.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 17, 2019, 11:59:11 PM
It might be said that none of us will be truly free until we cease to be attracted to other people. Only then will bodies and how they look be important. Unless we become anchorite hermits, that will only happen when we no longer recognize another person as being male or female, young or old and even clothed or unclothed.

Going a bit too far there, no? How about we take a middle way, and start teaching kids from an early age that sex and attraction to the (opposite or same) sex are perfectly OK - BUT, just as with other impulses (e. g. greed, hatred, anger, etc.), learning when and how it is acceptable to express them is very important. Parents, schools, popular media, etc. all need to get on the same page about this. Probably no human societies have quite accomplished this yet. (Just read the daily news.) However, it's a bit less drastic than everyone becoming hermits (and so ending the species entirely).
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 18, 2019, 02:10:52 AM
Yup, golden rule, is something done with the heart. It is genuinely caring about others. Pretty simple fundamental stuff actually. Who can't get that and why?
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: BlueTrain on February 18, 2019, 12:31:39 PM
I made my hermit comments because of the different reactions within this thread about the original linked article. Between this thread, other threads and comments on other forums,  there are both dubious claims about nudism and a considerable amount of denials about it, too. The middle way is apparently very narrow.

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm all for nudity and I won't even say "when appropriate." That's for everyone else to decide. But I think there needs to be something beyond "because it feels good" for public nudity to be more acceptable. Then again, maybe not. I have lived in Germany and found it to be a fairly conservative place, although I base that on not Germany as a whole but only on where I actually live, plus where my daughter also lived in another part of the country. Yet not only was Germany where nudism (as we think of it) "invented" (as a concept) but is also a place where many beaches allow nudity. That would be on the Baltic and the North Seas (so bring a sweater). So how come?
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Safebare on February 18, 2019, 08:28:04 PM
BT, I'm not sure what question you are asking. Why would a conservative culture support nude recreation? I don't think it has anything to do with conservative or liberal leanings. I think today's political climate has eroded those terms beyond recognition anyway. I think you will find several on this board who identify as conservative, regardless of what it says on their birth certificate ( or voter registration). 😊
There are plenty of reasons to advance nudity in public far beyond 'it feels good'  those are easily found, so I apologize that I don't understand the question.
~Safebare
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Bob Knows on February 18, 2019, 10:52:33 PM
BT, I'm not sure what question you are asking. Why would a conservative culture support nude recreation?
~Safebare

In general a "conservative" supposedly supports limited government, less government control of our lives.  Government enforced clothing standards is the antithesis of limited government. 
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: BlueTrain on February 18, 2019, 10:55:30 PM
I think you understand the question when you said why does a conservative culture support nude recreation, or at least tolerate it.  Perhaps we don't understand the cultures that well and, anyway, it seems like they can change overnight, like the wind. After all, there is conservative and there is reactionary. I suppose it is possible to maintain the same political stance, so to speak, and find yourself in a different place on the scale, depending on where the two ends are at any given time. It isn't a straight line. It's more like a horseshoe magnet, with the two opposite ends quite close to one another. A true conservative minds his own business.

Sometimes I identify as a conservative (I voted for Nixon) but it doesn't mention my political affiliation on my voter ID card and naturally it doesn't on my birth certificate. I do not, however, identify as either democrat or republican. I'm not so sure I identify as a nudist, either, for that matter.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 19, 2019, 05:50:28 AM
BT, I'm not sure what question you are asking. Why would a conservative culture support nude recreation?
~Safebare

In general a "conservative" supposedly supports limited government, less government control of our lives.  Government enforced clothing standards is the antithesis of limited government.
That could better be a definition of libertarian on a given day. Conservative has connoted conservation. It has connoted conserving old, or traditional ways. It has meant physical conservation. There has been a Victorian and Puritanical need to control influence on nudity law for a long time. That to me would mean that it is a conservative idea to enforce clothing mandatory laws. But, I also take your point well.

So Bob, I'd not be quick to put a conservative label on body freedom. The movement and lifestyle is notoriously filled with liberals, socialists, conservatives, etc. You and I are on two extreme ends of many political issues, but we both are firmly opposed to these laws and we're both entrenched in the lifestyle and spirit of it all. So, we are apparently sitting on a very wide base. There are all types of people that would support what we are wanting to see spread into mainstream culture and get the nudity restrictions off of our backs.

This tells me that we have latent power to make change.
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 19, 2019, 06:32:26 AM
Getting on track, we attempting to have a discussion about how to bring revolutionary change to American sociability, at least something. We are also discussing in this thread how to fit this in to a global scale and catch up with European victories and promote more change everywhere. We're strategizing a body freedom revolution.

So far, we are have discussed/brainstormed:

Using Instagram to get images of lifestyle out.
Ageism splitting up the naturist population and nude activities.
How to deal with the pollution from sexualized attitudes disrupting naturist presentations on line and in the media.
How to get viral recognition.
Incrementalism.
Young people seeing naturist doing things that they can identify with.
The ingrained psychology of our own selves. The sexuality inherent in human beings and how it gets into naturism.
Idealistic beauty standards.
Networking meetup activities.
Getting to critical mass.
The influence of more radical sub-cultures on mass cultures as a general history in social change.
Women’s psychology and naturists issues.
Hitching a ride on other bandwagons, such as women’s rights and gender equality.
Are we dealing with a conservative opposition, or not?
The usable base available in support of nude liberties.

What anyone have to add to any of these discussions, topic, or further strategies?
Jbee



Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: BlueTrain on February 19, 2019, 01:14:41 PM
Very good post. I agree with most of the points.

There might be some problems in connection with "hitching a ride on other bandwagons." This is sometimes a problem with other causes. The difficulty lies with deciding how big an umbrella you want to share, in a manner of speaking. For example, would you want the issue of legal nude beaches somehow connected with gay issues? The issue of public nudity is problematic enough as it is. With every additional issue tacked on, you risk losing supporters. It does not follow that someone who supports the idea of a nude beach supports any other progressive or liberal issue. Likewise, I'm not so sure that radical sub-cultures make the difference that is often suggested. While they may have an effect on the general culture, they themselves remain a sub-culture.

I'm not so sure that idealized beauty standards make any difference whatsoever.

Something that is missing here (and which I am unable to add) is the history of beach nudity in Europe. I think there might be something available somewhere on the internet about the history of Cap d'Agde in the south of France and the Ile du Levant, which mayor may not be helpful, but next to nothing about how it came to be that all (or nearly all) beaches in Denmark are either nude or "topless," likewise for the beaches in Germany.  They were unlikely to have always been like that but they presumably did eventually, somehow. It might be useful to know. I realize there are vast cultural differences, not the least of which is the fact that Americans are much more diverse than Europe is or has been. And besides, circumstances there may not quite be what we have been led to believe. On that point, it would be interesting to hear the observations of the Europeans who contribute here. What is the Costa del Clyde like in high summer, for instance?

All that of course is only about beaches. As far as I know, with the exceptions noted, that is about all that public nudity in Europe involves.

Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 20, 2019, 01:23:56 AM
Blue train, when the issue of nudity is tagged with half the population, it has to be good. Otherwise we are just a small group that has to be active enough to move opinion of satggering size and difficulty.

"Likewise, I'm not so sure that radical sub-cultures make the difference that is often suggested. While they may have an effect on the general culture, they themselves remain a sub-culture."
The thing here is not to get everybody naked, but normalize free nudity, and then the spectrum of who adapts nudity will range from public nudity to "no big deal, just a body, but I'll stay in my costume." We won't all become nudist. That's okay.

I have no idea what that last paragraph and bit that you wrote means. :o

Idealized Beauty standards are a major reason that people wear clothes and get addicted to clothing. It is why people feel uncomfortable with themselves. This has to be addressed. It is a huge part what the liberation is about. It is a great injustice.
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 20, 2019, 01:32:38 AM
In addendum to the above and the list, I might add letter writing campaigns. We can watch the internet and contradict comments after articles and troll websites, but here is an additional strategy.

The example is the article on this other thread, here: http://freerangenaturism.com/forum/index.php?topic=1222.0

“Government Shut Down -- New Freedoms” is the thread name in the FR section.

Here is a positive spin on free range hiking. The author and the editors need to get over twenty encouraging responses to the article, leads to additional information or stories.
 
The got it correct and need the reinforcement. They need response to encourage them to write and place m more positive nude stuff in the paper. We need to write anytime we see this stuff. We need to write when we are shown these things here.
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 20, 2019, 04:36:17 AM
Getting on track, we attempting to have a discussion about how to bring revolutionary change to American sociability, at least something. We are also discussing in this thread how to fit this in to a global scale and catch up with European victories and promote more change everywhere. We're strategizing a body freedom revolution.

[deletions]

What anyone have to add to any of these discussions, topic, or further strategies?
Jbee

There really are many avenues naturists can explore to improve the public acceptance of naturism - and to encourage others to try it.

For example, it would help a lot if there were many more opportunities to be naked when doing "ordinary" things (outside one's home). Things like yoga, many sports (bowling, swimming, running, etc.), hiking, camping, gardening, using public beaches, body painting, attending theatrical performances, visiting museums, etc., etc. But the problem is how to help this happen. I don't really have good general ideas - except to start with efforts to increase the number of naturists. The more there are, the higher the demand for such things.

The biggest problem for naturists right now, in my opinion, is that they are too small a portion of the general population to have "critical mass". There are several problems as a result of this. One is the too low probability a naturist will be friends with - or even know of - another naturist, who's close enough to enjoy naturism with on a frequent basis. (Outside of immediate family, perhaps.) For the same reason, there will be few people nearby who aren't naturists but know of one or more naturists and don't disapprove of the lifestyle. The probability is even lower that there are naturists or potential naturists who may be seen almost daily (for instance because they work in the same place). This limits the number of people who might be persuaded to try naturism. Another problem is that other naturists who one knows may live so far away that opportunities for enjoying naturism together are limited.

There's some evidence that opportunities for enjoying naturism are directly related to the overall population density in a given region. For instance, the population density in England (excluding Scotland and Wales), is over a thousand per square mile. That's 10 times the population density of, say, Texas. So, any other factors aside, a naturist in England is about 10 times more likely to know other naturists or potential naturists than a naturist in Texas. And in fact, the average naturist in England has about 3 times more clubs or resorts to visit conveniently than a naturist in Texas. The travel time is also a lot shorter. (This is based on less than exact data on the number of available clubs, but is still a reasonable estimate.) Texas naturists would be at even a greater disadvantage, except that their climate is much more favorable for outdoor naturism than that of English naturists. So the availability of clubs and resorts is somewhat more likely. I've compared other U. S. states to England and found similar results. (The population density in the U. S. as a whole is even less than in Texas.) Note that this situation also affects free range naturists, not just those who visit clubs.

The conclusion that I draw from these observations is that individual naturists need to expend more effort to encourage people they know who might enjoy naturism to actually try it, in order to correct the insufficient "critical mass".

How much more effort is required? I don't know. Those of us who bother to discuss these things seriously online are doing more than the average naturist. However, I think that the effort required is, minimally, to discuss the subject with others who might be persuaded to try naturism - preferably one-on-one. That is more than just discussing the topic with other naturists.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 20, 2019, 07:56:55 AM
Here is one very small thing you and anyone you know could do to help naturism. There's a petition started by the Tampa Area Naturists to request approval for more naturist use of area beaches.

Just go to tinyurl.com/tandip (http://tinyurl.com/tandip)

You can choose to be anonymous (if you wish). You'll also be asked for a contribution, but you can politely decline. I generally don't think petitions like this accomplish very much, but it's worth a shot. If all local naturist groups did this sort of thing, it would bring more attention to naturism. This group wants 10,000 signatures, and they already have 9,879.

You could ask friends to sign, even if they aren't naturists. It would be one way to start a discussion with them on the subject.

Haulover Beach in Miami has been a noteworthy success for 25 years.

Here's a brief description:

Quote
Tampa Area Naturists (TAN – TANFL.com ), in alliance with B.E.A.C.H.E.S. Foundation Institute (beachesfoundation.org - the non-profit organization co-mentoring Haulover Beach with South Florida Free Beaches – sffb.com ) and its 25-year Tallahassee government affairs firm, Maury Management, seeks to replicate the successes at Haulover Beach in Miami and Blind Creek Beach in Fort Pierce where strong family values, amenities, parking and Beach Ambassadors are the norm.  To re-establish naturist use at Florida State Park beaches, starting with Honeymoon Island near Tampa, TAN needs YOUR immediate support and signing of our petition!
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: John P on February 20, 2019, 11:12:40 AM
I think the question to ask here is "How many people do you know personally?" Maybe that number is higher in a densely populated country (or part of a country) than a less dense one. But maybe we'd limit the number of people we need to deal with, if there were a very high number of them around. Has this been studied by sociologists? It sounds quite interesting.

Personally, I live in one of the most densely populated parts of the United States, New England. And in fact I do have a fair number of naturist acquaintances, mostly people I've met at Naturist Society gatherings and their friends. We've got a local naturist hiking group that spends a week together every year, and we've got connections elsewhere--people that some of us met on the nude Grand Canyon rafting trips, for instance. Now I'm over here in New Zealand with two guys from our group, plus one more from Germany, whom we met on a previous Naked European Walking Tour. I'm going to claim that we're pretty well linked! If there are people out there who simply don't know any other naturists, I wonder if they've actually gone out and done much.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: nuduke on February 20, 2019, 07:15:25 PM

Naturistplace,


I think each of your points is very well made.
Part of our problem is that there are few activities outside the naturist enclaves such as those you list in your 1st point.  Naked audience in a theatre performance is an interesting one.  It might test how many closet naturists there are out there on a local basis to each theatre.  We have seen in recent years the popularity of WNBR, naked restaurants and the work of Spencer Tunick brining together hundreds of naked people.  Proves there are more of us out there than BN or ANA can actually count!  And yes again, this is because the critical mass of people that want to have the right to be naked anywhere is an insufficient critical mass to  drum up a suitable weight of opinion, politics, PR, supporters and protest to create fundamental change in the way society accepts naked people.  And the other key disadvantage that I can see is that we are not a problem and we are not really widely oppressed in society.  So it's not a thing that people feel hurt and angry about so doesn't compete with the serious and weighty issues of acceptance and emancipation that do exist in society and probably rightly take precedence to fix e.g. women's rights and immigration!


Also I do think you are right to correlate population density and naturist opportunity.  Our crowded little isles, despite a fair percentage being rural, the population is spread everywhere even if in small settlements or isolated houses and the road system penetrates everywhere and so in general offer far less isolation than the wide open spaces that, say Jbee and DF have to roam in.



John
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 20, 2019, 08:58:45 PM
How did gays make so much headway and is there a correlation? They surely faced the same population density and minority problems.

The solid core, although stats vary are about 6 to 7% of the population. Then, there are those in the grey areas of the spectrum of the solid core to the straight people. There are like 20% who might be part time gay. There are those that have had one gay experience. There are those that have primary relationships that switch sexes during a lifetime. There are bisexual. This runs into something like 50% of the population depending on who you reference. And that amounts to lots of sisters, brothers, family and friends.

This doesn't seem so much more a place of strength and social change than nude peoples. These things correlate percentage-wise, and the degree of how much you are in will vary.

How do gays meet and identify themselves. Well, how do nudist and naturist do that? Gays go to clubs and wear fashions that subtly, or overtly, give clues. They are motivated by sexual desires and like minded companionship. We nudes are not giving any social clues. We are not driven by sex as a prime motivator, unless we futility go to nude resorts to find mates. We are socially stunted when sex is in the equation, or we're swingers. Perhaps we need to wave our freak flag higher? Bumper stickers and clothing fashions?

One advantage is that everybody is a naturist, they just don't know it, yet. Everyone across the board would benefit, if they knew that there are benefits to naturist lifestyle. Everyone is oppressed by the obsession of clothing. There have been fashion accommodations to the rebellion of the discomfort. Examples, are worn jeans, even with holes. Much of the fashion in the malls is to be unfashionable looking and to buy old looking new clothing.

We are safe. We are not sexual in our goals. We are wholesome. We just get bad press, so to speak.

So, I suggest appealing to the fashion rebellion. Liberated women have liberated bodies. Naturism is very very green. Clothing needs to be demonized more, put in its actual place. Landfills of clothing and expense, and driven by fashion/clothing expense, sort of dropping out, are mellinial issues. Minimalism is an influential subculture. Women's rights and equality. I'm saying that we appeal to many other subcultures that mount up in numbers for support, IF they identify with us.

Could naturism again be cutting edge, edgy, cool?
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 20, 2019, 10:40:58 PM
How did gays make so much headway and is there a correlation? They surely faced the same population density and minority problems.

The solid core, although stats vary are about 6 to 7% of the population. Then, there are those in the grey areas of the spectrum of the solid core to the straight people. There are like 20% who might be part time gay. There are those that have had one gay experience. There are those that have primary relationships that switch sexes during a lifetime. There are bisexual. This runs into something like 50% of the population depending on who you reference. And that amounts to lots of sisters, brothers, family and friends.

I think there are several fairly obvious differences between the gay and naturist situations. You mention one in noting that it's easier for gays to identify each other. The major difference is that being gay is largely a biological thing. To some extent, sexual identity is flexible, as with transgender people. But mostly it's not. By the time of the mid-teens, most gay people (I think, not being gay myself) know they're "different". This just isn't the same with being naturist. Although I found being naked felt good when I was young, I was over 30 before I became seriously interested. Some people, apparently, don't develop an interest until much later. So it's much more of a volitional issue. 

This fact makes it a lot harder to estimate the number of "naturists" in the population. Although some surveys show that perhaps 20% or more of the U. S. population have tried skinny-dipping at some time or other, the number of "active" or "practicing" naturists (even in their own homes) is almost unknowable (so few scientific surveys), but I'd expect the number is under 1%, or 2% tops. If anyone is aware of more reliable figures, I'd love to know.

And this low percentage is the heart of the critical mass problem. Since being gay is mostly biological, the percentage has always been about the same (for many thousands of years). What's different in recent decades is that so many gays are now "out". That is something that's voluntary (sort of, though it's now much easier than it used to be). And I expect it's partly a result of person-to-person efforts among gays, beginning a few decades ago, to take that step. If my assumptions about critical mass are correct, it appears that 7% of the population is sufficient - while 1% or 2% isn't.

I do not think that the success that gays have had "just happened" without lots of pressure among gays to decide to "come out". It wasn't because the general society, all by itself, became more tolerant or more aware of the fact that being gay isn't merely a choice. It was because enough gays persuaded others to publicly insist on their rights. And keep in mind that, in contrast to potential naturists, gay people - almost by definition - know at least one other who's gay, and often many more than one.

Likewise, for naturists, I don't think we'll get more tolerance and rights by waiting for society to come to its senses. We need to actively find others who are open-minded enough and able to appreciate the pleasures of social nudity and persuade them to become practicing naturists. Gays didn't need to be persuaded about their orientation. In the naturist case, I think some reasonable persuasion is necessary.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 21, 2019, 07:44:15 PM
Yup, some good points there.

I tend to disagree with your estimate of "1% or 2%" would be active naturists "(even in their own homes)." Active social situations on an ongoing basis maybe. People who don't wear clothes in their homes is going to be a varying degree of practice, but I do know, from talking around that a surprising number do. It is of course often to sometimes. I know that children have a tendency to put a damper on the practice.

By TNS polls, which are done very well, 30% plus have skinny-dipped in mixed company. This would imply that these same people would have a more comfortable attitude about their bodies and to some degree be naked in the home. Granted that there are some that don't see themselves as prudes, but think that public nudity is too much. Also, those same polls tell us that 80% at least accept designated places for social naturist activities.

Coming out was a big deal, a dangerous deal in the past. Of the 7% a smaller percent of the gay population were actively gay. Most were hiding and staying hidden, or repressing themselves, even fake marriages. I would think that the stats between the practice of nude and gay populations to be closer to similar. I would think that the potential would be similar.

What did the gays do to overcome the oppressive situations and what got them to come out? I think that it was more than compelling biology. I think that the sexual revolution just a few years before gay lib beginnings had a terrific coattail influence.  I remember when "rolling queers" on a Friday night was an acceptable practice condoned by the police. They have come a long way.

The gay population had to overcome a greater population that didn't identify with them, even disgusted by them. We would have people that identified with us in varying extents. We are easier to tolerate. We are less threatening, maybe.

I'd like to see a poll: Do you go nude about your home? How often? Do you have children living with you?
 
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 21, 2019, 11:50:39 PM
I tend to disagree with your estimate of "1% or 2%" would be active naturists "(even in their own homes)." Active social situations on an ongoing basis maybe. People who don't wear clothes in their homes is going to be a varying degree of practice, but I do know, from talking around that a surprising number do. It is of course often to sometimes.

For concreteness, let's say that 7% of the (adult) U. S. population is gay. I don't know where the number comes from, but assume it for the sake of discussion. What does it actually mean? There are degrees of gayness. It wouldn't surprise me if 50% of the population has tried gay sex at some point or other. But that doesn't mean much. The actual distribution of gayness is bimodal. That means most of the population is at one end of the scale or the other. (Much less on the gay end, of course.) But if you figure the midpoint is where people have gay rather than hetero sex about half the time, I could believe that 7% is about the right number for the gay side. That's still a lot. It means about 17 million U. S. adults are on the gay side.

The situation with naturists is, I think, quite different. The distribution is unimodal, with a peak close to the non-naturist side, and a long declining tail on the naturist side. So exactly how does one measure the degree to which a person is naturist? That's a very interesting question I'll get to in a moment. I could easily believe that 30% of the population has skinny-dipped in mixed company at some time or other. But that doesn't make them naturists, and in particular, it doesn't mean they will support the naturist "cause" or recommend naturism to others. There could be 10 or 15% who go naked occasionally at home. But I still don't think that makes them naturists or likely to recommend naturism to others. If anything, most of those people probably wouldn't volunteer to tell others they go naked at home sometimes.

So we need to have some sort of numerical scale that measures the degree of naturist interest and activity. As it happens there is such a thing: the "N-scale". I wrote about it 20 years ago: http://www.naturistplace.com/wnl-0202.htm (http://www.naturistplace.com/wnl-0202.htm). It's not my idea, but I think it's useful.

However, I don't think it's fine-grained enough. More detail is needed at levels of 5 and above. That's the point where a person might engage in naturist activities, although somewhat secretively. Things such as naked hiking where not likely to be seen, or visiting a nude beach occasionally (where nudity is the norm). So I expanded the N-scale to include more detail, and I wrote about that: http://www.naturistplace.com/wnl-0203.htm (http://www.naturistplace.com/wnl-0203.htm). I think that 5.8 might be the point where one might be considered a "real" naturist. (You'll need to read the article for more details.) This is the level of naturist activity that I am guessing corresponds to my 1 or 2% estimate of the number of naturists. It's also the point at which I think a person might admit of an interest in naturism to open-minded friends and even suggest they consider it themselves. Such people can actually be helpful in promoting naturism. That's still about 5 million people (based on the 2% number), though that may be too optimistic.

Why too optimistic? Consider some other numbers. There are somewhat more than 1 million members of the Sierra Club. That's a very mainstream organization, and there are probably tens of millions of people in the U. S. who sympathize with the organization's goals. But people these days just aren't joiners. Consider members of the two U. S. naturist organizations, TNS and AANR. Both are somewhat secretive about how many members they have, but based on past information, 20,000 is about tops for TNS and 50,000 for AANR. Even taken together, that's only a bit more than 1% of the 5 million who might be "real" naturists. People aren't joiners, but even so it might be a stretch to guess that there are even 2.5 million "real" naturists. That would be around 15% of the number of gay people and about 1% of the adult population.

Getting to higher percentages means lowering the bar for who is considered a naturist. That extra 1% might well be the best people to target first for persuasion to become more active naturists. If we could identify them. There may be ways to do that. In principle, it could be done by sending surveys to people who might be open-minded enough to consider naturism seriously. The surveys would ask them about things like being naked at home. Responses would be anonymous, of course, in the research phase. From that better estimates could be made. (There would also be questions that indicate open-mindedness.) However, this is all blue-sky stuff. What organizations would attempt this sort of thing? There are market research firms that do this sort of thing, but I doubt they're inexpensive. Actually, as long as this is just speculating, I guess Facebook data could be usefully mined. But that's controversial, and not inexpensive either.

So, this is all mostly guesswork. There simply are far too few studies that are designed to quantify naturist numbers - let alone to use some scale like the N-scale to make it possible to get some idea of the distribution of interest levels in naturist activities. We're really in the dark at this point. And that's not a good thing, because that fact in itself deters people from having an interest in naturism, because they have no way of knowing how popular or unpopular it actually is. And people are reluctant to associate with things that seem "unpopular".
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 22, 2019, 03:41:49 AM
I couldn't agree with you more, that we are in the dark, as the details are shoddy. We only have educated guesses. Still we can use ballpark and low-ball, to get some idea of our potential.

In any social movement for change, it doesn't take the entire population to make the change. For example during the civil rights era of the early sixties, there were something like 20 million black Americans. We know that only a relatively few participated enough, to make the significant news and actions. The marches were not millions, but thousands, the core was fewer and many of those were other races.

All of those hippies and hoopla started with one guy being fed some LSD. He and friends gathered with a bucket of the stuff, things snowball. Who could have known what change was beginning.

If our low ball figures are anything close, we have great potential.

So, how can that be harnessed and organized and what activities would be most effective and when?

What would inspire people enough to at least take notice and listen, or to identify, to see harmlessness, to see injustice, to get curious? What would make it cool enough to stand up and say, we need to get off of other people's backs, its just a harmless naked body, fun and any or all of the other positives naturism gives us?

What would get young people to talk about it? DF and I have discussed standing in nude body suits with strategic black bars and handing out informative flyers at the U of A. If the flyer sparks a cause and it directs poeple to a cool website, which demonstates nudity fun, it would only need to catch a few people. These few begin to talk social media networking. It goes viral. Okay, the idea is still in the rough.

Another way to get action has been legal challenges. The first amendmant spitiuality of naturism hasn't come up, yet. It needs someone who genually fits the bill and is willing to be the one to stand up. It needs pro bono lawyers and money to challenge laws. I think that it is doable. I have an article submitted to "N" magazine, now, that deals with this. I'm waiting for approval, which would present the notion to 30,000 naturist readers, some of which might get fired up. If that doesn't happen, then I go ahead and publish on my website, expecting a few pingbacks. I'll see where it goes and how it floats. I'm fishing.

Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 22, 2019, 05:06:56 AM
In any social movement for change, it doesn't take the entire population to make the change. For example during the civil rights era of the early sixties, there were something like 20 million black Americans. We know that only a relatively few participated enough, to make the significant news and actions. The marches were not millions, but thousands, the core was fewer and many of those were other races.

[deletions]

So, how can that be harnessed and organized and what activities would be most effective and when?

Actually, there was the Million Man March in 1965, which involved mostly black men.

MLK's "I have a dream" speech was at a 1963 march that had "only" about 250,000 people.

Unfortunately, the naturist movement doesn't have (and never had) leaders with MLK's eloquence and charisma. The environmental movement of the 50s and 60s had David Brower (of the Sierra Club and similar organizations). He was a very prominent leader at the time. Naturists could really use someone like him.

Let's not forget, too, that many people died - both white and black - in the Civil Rights struggle of the 60s. Later that decade there was Kent State, which was a different sort of turning point. We don't need a repeat of that.

The naturist "cause" isn't quite analogous. There isn't, to be honest, quite as much at stake. We probably need a different approach from either the Civil Rights or the Gay Rights movement.

I wish I knew "what activities would be most effective and when". So far the best I've come up with is the incremental "build critical mass" approach. 17 million gays and 20 million blacks got attention. The number of naturists now isn't in the same ballpark.

But note that the incremental approach yields benefits right away: Find more naturists in your local area, and you have more people to share social nudity with. That's at least something.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 22, 2019, 08:23:51 AM
Here's something else to think about. The couple responsible for what's probably the most popular naturist blog (Naked Wanderings) just found out that their Instagram account was removed. (https://www.nakedwanderings.com/naked-wanderings-banned-from-instagram/ (https://www.nakedwanderings.com/naked-wanderings-banned-from-instagram/)) Instagram, like its owner Facebook, has very anti-naturist policies (no visible genitals or female nipples) found Nick and Lin's Instagram account in violation. The couple claims they tried very hard to observe the rules. To no avail.

This is not how the Internet was supposed (initially) to work. It was for the unrestricted exchange of information (unless it's actually illegal). We can forget about that now, since the Internet is mostly controlled by about half a dozen huge monopolies. And those genitals and nipples are a problem, because advertisers - who have the final say - think they hurt business. That's what happened to Tumblr just 2 months ago. Business comes first on the Internet these days. To heck with sharing honest information. (Bot armies that circulate all sorts of lies and conspiracy theories are OK, though.)

Naturists are badly hurt by these policies (just ask Nick and Lins). Because exposed genitals and nipples are somehow no different from pure porn. How are people supposed to be able to see the difference between nonsexual nudity and porn if they aren't allowed to see either? People can't really understand naturist lifestyles, because actually showing how naturists live their lives is, somehow, dangerous to children and the moral fiber of the nation. That's a big loss for us, since a picture is worth a thousand words - but only if it's allowed to be seen.

I don't know what naturists can do about this problem either. About 60 years ago we got some relief when it was decided (by the country's highest courts) that nudist magazines and books could legally be sent through the mails. The First Amendment guaranteed that. Unfortunately, private entities (like Facebook) aren't bound to observe the 1st Am. And these private entities now control the primary information channels these days.

Even worse than being excluded from the predominant information channels is the fact that this exclusion, by itself, leads people to think that the excluded material should be excluded, because it's "bad".

We still have direct person-to-person communication to rely on, which is what I've been emphasizing. It's a slow process, and like trying to defend oneself with both hands tied. But what choice do we have?
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Safebare on February 22, 2019, 05:36:10 PM
I agree. Making the cause personal seems like the best path forward. Small wins will lead the way, who knows which will grow legs.
Nick & Lins, Jbee & DF, and others are leading the march into the 21st century of naturism. Thanks! BTW.
I am not in a good position to take a seat in that saddle, but would welcome the opportunity. I would continue my legal fight as long as light appears in the tunnel. But it must be a promising tunnel.
Participating in body positive events and sharing them with others is my latest tack. It's not equal to sitting in a forbidden seat, but close enough for me.
The discussions here make a difference. Keep up the chatter.

~Safebare
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 22, 2019, 05:43:05 PM
In any social movement for change, it doesn't take the entire population to make the change. For example during the civil rights era of the early sixties, there were something like 20 million black Americans. We know that only a relatively few participated enough, to make the significant news and actions. The marches were not millions, but thousands, the core was fewer and many of those were other races.

[deletions]

So, how can that be harnessed and organized and what activities would be most effective and when?

Actually, there was the Million Man March in 1965, which involved mostly black men.

MLK's "I have a dream" speech was at a 1963 march that had "only" about 250,000 people.

Unfortunately, the naturist movement doesn't have (and never had) leaders with MLK's eloquence and charisma. The environmental movement of the 50s and 60s had David Brower (of the Sierra Club and similar organizations). He was a very prominent leader at the time. Naturists could really use someone like him.

Let's not forget, too, that many people died - both white and black - in the Civil Rights struggle of the 60s. Later that decade there was Kent State, which was a different sort of turning point. We don't need a repeat of that.

The naturist "cause" isn't quite analogous. There isn't, to be honest, quite as much at stake. We probably need a different approach from either the Civil Rights or the Gay Rights movement.

I wish I knew "what activities would be most effective and when". So far the best I've come up with is the incremental "build critical mass" approach. 17 million gays and 20 million blacks got attention. The number of naturists now isn't in the same ballpark.

But note that the incremental approach yields benefits right away: Find more naturists in your local area, and you have more people to share social nudity with. That's at least something.
My point here is that it only took a relatively few activist to spawn those movements. Those movements didn't start with huge marches. They started with some people eating at a counter and riding a bus. The generated numbers and support where simulated by the actions of a few.

I add again that we are more than 20 million bodies. Everybody has a body, every body. At varying degrees, not just practicing naturists. We are not looking for huge sweeping reform, economic reforms, desegregation, etc.. We are looking at everyone's humanity, and it is not a threat to dismantling institutions and power. We're looking for a simple change. Stop arresting me for my natural act, experiencing my body, a human right. The laws are the crime, not the experience of life.

The various movements are not the same, but what tactics can be employed, what lessons were learned? A quarter million people walking down the streets of Washington nude and proud demanding civil rights will not happen, doesn't need to happen. A simple message and awareness of a practical common sense human issue will suffice. "Seeing a body naked is harmless, healthy and natural, NOT criminal." Such an occurrence as having ones body seen, or seeing other's bodies is not something that should cause kids to kill themselves, emotional trauma to the innocent, choke the planet, imprison and destroy social standing, strike fear, or even provoke disgust. It is an important correction, not a complete restructuring of the social and economic order. 

The question to ask here is what tools were employed that can be used to create change. There was a common thread in the tipping point of the aforementioned social changes. People saw that their thinking was incorrect when it was brought to their attention and they responded with compassion when they saw that it was hurting other people. The dominate society saw civil rights, all men are created equal. They saw that color in people's skin is not an indication of inferiority. They can use the same facilities with no health issues. They can be moral, very moral. Their presence is not harmful. Their differences will not destroy the fabric of the nation. They are not over sexed compulsive rapists. The text is the same inside, no matter what the cover of the book, or if it even has a cover. It is wrong to preserve, or conserve the way things have been, just because it is the status quo, things must be questioned from time to time and changed, in order to form a more perfect union. Oppression is wrong. The list goes on. All of these things have been laid on the nudist population, too.

Whether gay, color, or socio-cultural, or body freedom, a significant majority has to be made aware of injustice and change opinion. People want to do the right thing.

People die everyday, inside and their potential dies, their self esteem. People physically die from social pressures. Mob rule on facebook can kill a kid, just as sure as a hanging.
Jbee

P.S. Over a third of Americans have tried skinny-dipping or nude sunbathing with others. And over a quarter of Americans would consider trying it in the future.

NEF’s Question 10: “Have you, personally, ever gone skinny-dipping or nude sunbathing with others?”

35% answered “Yes” and 63% said “No.”

This question has been included in each poll since 1983, when 15% of respondents said “Yes.” In 2000, it went up to 25% and remained at this percentage in 2006.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Bob Knows on February 22, 2019, 07:10:03 PM
We don't care if the whole population adopts social nudity.  We only care if the whole population becomes TOLERANT of social nudity.  Let them have their clothes.  They need to let us live without ours. 
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: JOhnGw on February 22, 2019, 08:21:48 PM
We don't care if the whole population adopts social nudity.  We only care if the whole population becomes TOLERANT of social nudity.  Let them have their clothes.  They need to let us live without ours.
The best post of the lot.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 22, 2019, 10:17:20 PM
Exactly. No one is going to get every body naked. Just give us our rights back. Something like BN in British law right now. This should be no big deal, time will tell what others do. But, for now they need to know to back off of each others bodies. Drop the law and society is free to take its own course, to correct itself, or convince society and then the law gets dropped. It doesn't matter, just so we end up free.
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 23, 2019, 01:39:11 AM
The way the political process works is not that laws get changed because "it's the right thing to do". In most jurisdictions, public nudity (in a local park or even in your own yard) just isn't legal. There are either specific statutes about this (state or local), or public nudity is automatically considered "indecent exposure". So in almost all cases it's necessary either to change existing laws, or else get a new law that clarifies the legality of public nudity.

And getting any political action of this kind requires convincing anything from a local council to the state legislature to do something that probably won't be politically popular. There are almost certain to be people who object to such a change. They may even be few in number but they will do their best to stop any changes that make nudity more tolerated. Guaranteed.

It's just dreaming to think that things will get better for naturism without a lot of effort of some kind or other. Didn't happen with civil rights or gay rights or women's rights or labor rights or almost any other sort of rights you can think of. And it won't happen any more easily for naturist rights either.

Even in the few places that are already tolerant of nudity, people can come along and make it harder. That happened in San Francisco in 2012. Why? Simply because some naturists were exercising their rights - and people who didn't like that came along and got the law changed. And it's not just naturist rights that get taken away. Labor rights have been under attack for years. Women's rights (abortion and contraception in particular) are constantly under attack.

Freedom is not free.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Bob Knows on February 23, 2019, 05:12:56 AM
Even in the few places that are already tolerant of nudity, people can come along and make it harder. That happened in San Francisco in 2012. Why? Simply because some naturists were exercising their rights - and people who didn't like that came along and got the law changed. And it's not just naturist rights that get taken away. Labor rights have been under attack for years. Women's rights (abortion and contraception in particular) are constantly under attack.

Freedom is not free.

As my father used to say,  "Can't never did anything."
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: John P on February 23, 2019, 08:06:44 AM
Even in the few places that are already tolerant of nudity, people can come along and make it harder. That happened in San Francisco in 2012. Why? Simply because some naturists were exercising their rights - and people who didn't like that came along and got the law changed. And it's not just naturist rights that get taken away. Labor rights have been under attack for years. Women's rights (abortion and contraception in particular) are constantly under attack.

Freedom is not free.

As my father used to say,  "Can't never did anything."

We aren't going to get anywhere if we feed each other propaganda and accept it without question, then act as if we're in possession of  complete facts. We did NOT lose our rights in San Francisco because "naturists exercised their rights"! That debacle occurred because men were gathering in a particular location in San Francisco and making sexual displays--I'm referring to penis rings designed to stimulate or simulate an erection. Naturists, at least the Naturist Action Committee, said that this should be dealt with by enforcement of state law against public lewdness. But the local police said they weren't willing to try to make the distinction between lewd nudity and the innocent kind. So the city passed a law againt nudity, and that dealt with the problem. We had a chance to denounce the people who were our enemies in this case, and we failed to do it. Now some of us are falsifying the situation after the event.

Time after time, we've lost naturist venues when they were used for sexual activity. We seem to be very reluctant to make an honest assement of what's occuring, and clearly identify the people who are costing us our rights. It's got to change.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 23, 2019, 08:56:08 PM
Even in the few places that are already tolerant of nudity, people can come along and make it harder. That happened in San Francisco in 2012. Why? Simply because some naturists were exercising their rights - and people who didn't like that came along and got the law changed. And it's not just naturist rights that get taken away. Labor rights have been under attack for years. Women's rights (abortion and contraception in particular) are constantly under attack.

Freedom is not free.

As my father used to say,  "Can't never did anything."

We aren't going to get anywhere if we feed each other propaganda and accept it without question, then act as if we're in possession of  complete facts. We did NOT lose our rights in San Francisco because "naturists exercised their rights"! That debacle occurred because men were gathering in a particular location in San Francisco and making sexual displays--I'm referring to penis rings designed to stimulate or simulate an erection. Naturists, at least the Naturist Action Committee, said that this should be dealt with by enforcement of state law against public lewdness. But the local police said they weren't willing to try to make the distinction between lewd nudity and the innocent kind. So the city passed a law againt nudity, and that dealt with the problem. We had a chance to denounce the people who were our enemies in this case, and we failed to do it. Now some of us are falsifying the situation after the event.

Time after time, we've lost naturist venues when they were used for sexual activity. We seem to be very reluctant to make an honest assement of what's occuring, and clearly identify the people who are costing us our rights. It's got to change.

Yes, let's by all means not be "falsifying the situation" and not "feed each other propaganda and accept it without question, then act as if we're in possession of complete facts." That would be shameful. But sadly, some of us are still singing the same lugubrious, oh-poor-me ballad that seems to be all they know but doesn't recognize the simple truth: Naturists are too few and too weakly organized to defend their own rights. Thanks for providing an opportunity to face that unfortunate issue.

Naturists will always have enemies. Those include economic interests who fear that naturists will harm their profits or their property values, religious pressure groups that hate all nudity, law enforcement agencies always desirous to avoid making reasonable distinctions, legislators who listen only to the squeakiest wheels, politicians who need a "moral" issue to campaign on, and exhibitionists who make themselves the flashpoint for problems that are seized upon by.all of our other enemies as excuses to pursue their real agenda - which is suppressing nudity of any sort. Fighting all such enemies takes significant resources and people willing to support the effort.

Mark Haskell Smith in his book reports on his interview with Scott Wiener, the ambitious, gay politician who led the effort to curtail naturist rights in San Francisco. Smith makes several salient points. Wiener's legislation was broader than it needed to be. It passed by just a single vote. Many on the board of supervisors objected strongly to the proposal. But, as Smith points out, "other members of the board of supervisors, notably from tourist-heavy districts like Fisherman's Wharf, supported the ban." These latter folks made the difference, but weren't directly impacted by what the exhibitionists were doing. They simply didn't want naked people coming into their territory and scaring away the tourists.

Naturists need to face the reality that no amount of strong denunciations of one tiny portion of our enemies will be enough to protect our rights. That's not how politics works. When one side loses a political battle, it's because that side is the weaker one. There need to be more real naturists actively defending their rights. They must fight so that any legislation is sufficiently narrowly designed to target the actual problem. And they must recognize and call out all of the enemies of naturist rights, not just a few rather addlepated exhibitionists.

That is what must happen if we really and truly "make an honest assement of what's occuring, and clearly identify the people who are costing us our rights".
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 24, 2019, 04:15:52 AM
The way the political process works is not that laws get changed because "it's the right thing to do". In most jurisdictions, public nudity (in a local park or even in your own yard) just isn't legal. There are either specific statutes about this (state or local), or public nudity is automatically considered "indecent exposure". So in almost all cases it's necessary either to change existing laws, or else get a new law that clarifies the legality of public nudity.

And getting any political action of this kind requires convincing anything from a local council to the state legislature to do something that probably won't be politically popular. There are almost certain to be people who object to such a change. They may even be few in number but they will do their best to stop any changes that make nudity more tolerated. Guaranteed.

It's just dreaming to think that things will get better for naturism without a lot of effort of some kind or other. Didn't happen with civil rights or gay rights or women's rights or labor rights or almost any other sort of rights you can think of. And it won't happen any more easily for naturist rights either.

Even in the few places that are already tolerant of nudity, people can come along and make it harder. That happened in San Francisco in 2012. Why? Simply because some naturists were exercising their rights - and people who didn't like that came along and got the law changed. And it's not just naturist rights that get taken away. Labor rights have been under attack for years. Women's rights (abortion and contraception in particular) are constantly under attack.

Freedom is not free.


I'm looking for solutions, something fresh. One reason that I brought up gays is that they were once more abhorrent and despised and persecuted than we have been. All of that changed. We are up against the same forces, the same power, the same players. We are people without clothing, same as everyone else. We aren't so different. Gay culture and practices are much different from them. Many identify with us, many haven't given it thought yet, many are in a closet. I know that I'm not just dreaming here. Change can happen, but yes it will take some doing, putting together plans of action and acting on them.

 Nothing ever changed without attitude. Nothing is assessed, yet. John P. is correct, the data isn't in. The talk hasn't even begun to start, let alone plan and action. If gays can do it, then we can do it.

I'm adding that battles must be chosen. Armies must be trained. Plans must be set and studied. Preparation. Where are they vulnerable, etc. San Fran with a small group of reactionaries protesting and being angry and outrageous wasn't the best situation. Being confrontational and pushing it with cock rings was stupid. Doing all of that without a game plan, just pushing it, nobody confronting the lewd behavior. It was doomed. They caused it. Martinez did the same thing.

Jbee

Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: John P on February 24, 2019, 11:03:02 AM
JBG, you don't seem to be geting this. The people who did the damage in San Francisco weren't naturists in any sense, confrontational or not--they were exhibitionists. The state of the law allowed them to show their penis rings in public, and that's what they did. When their rights were taken away along with everyone else's, they stopped. We can say what we want to about that city law, but it accomplished its purpose.

Now Naturistplace, you evidently have some knowledge about the San Francisco events, so why did you talk about "naturists exercising their rights"? If there's some strategy that calls for us to pass false information around, maybe you can explain it.

I claim that the best thing we can do is bring attention to any problems that occur on the fringes of nudism, which usually means someone acting out sexually. We shouldn't be hesitant about demanding a stop to this stuff! If we don't, we'll make it seem as if the people looking for sexual thrills are part of our movement, and that where we go, they'll be going too. We'll never get public support that way.

Naturistplace, I want to agree with your statement "And they must recognize and call out all of the enemies of naturist rights, not just a few rather addlepated exhibitionists." If there were other people causing trouble in San Francisco, then certainly naturists should have denounced them too! I agree that the exhibitionists were a pretty crazy bunch, but they led to this sad loss, and my recollection from that time is that naturists couldn't find much to say about it, which I think was a mistake. Whoever is doing us harm, we should say clearly what the problem is.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 24, 2019, 09:49:17 PM
JBG, you don't seem to be geting this. The people who did the damage in San Francisco weren't naturists in any sense, confrontational or not--they were exhibitionists. The state of the law allowed them to show their penis rings in public, and that's what they did. When their rights were taken away along with everyone else's, they stopped. We can say what we want to about that city law, but it accomplished its purpose.

Now Naturistplace, you evidently have some knowledge about the San Francisco events, so why did you talk about "naturists exercising their rights"? If there's some strategy that calls for us to pass false information around, maybe you can explain it.

I claim that the best thing we can do is bring attention to any problems that occur on the fringes of nudism, which usually means someone acting out sexually. We shouldn't be hesitant about demanding a stop to this stuff! If we don't, we'll make it seem as if the people looking for sexual thrills are part of our movement, and that where we go, they'll be going too. We'll never get public support that way.

Naturistplace, I want to agree with your statement "And they must recognize and call out all of the enemies of naturist rights, not just a few rather addlepated exhibitionists." If there were other people causing trouble in San Francisco, then certainly naturists should have denounced them too! I agree that the exhibitionists were a pretty crazy bunch, but they led to this sad loss, and my recollection from that time is that naturists couldn't find much to say about it, which I think was a mistake. Whoever is doing us harm, we should say clearly what the problem is.

"so why did you talk about "naturists exercising their rights"?"

That's a good place to start. It's simple. The key controversy in 2012 was about people who were going naked in San Francisco's Jane Warner Plaza and places nearby. I don't know the exact details since all my information is second hand. But what I believe is that some of these people were simply naked, which is completely naturist, and was completely legal at that place and time. Some other people were not only naked but also behaving lewdly. That's of course not naturist, and wasn't legal under California law either. I don't know whether or not the latter people claimed to be naturists, but they certainly weren't, and no legitimate naturist would condone the lewdness. Those who weren't behaving lewdly were absolutely, positively exercising their rights.

As is always the case, the news media and the general public have only vague conceptions of the finer distinctions. Could those who were simply naked have somehow stopped the behavior of those who were lewd? Only someone who knew the people involved could, realistically, answer that.

Although the people who were behaving lewdly were the proximate cause of the problem, it escalated the way it did because of many other actors with their own selfish interests who got a city law passed that banned all nudity (with certain specific exceptions). People like that, in my opinion, are the real enemies of naturism we need to focus on. This includes people who just don't like nudity at all, or think it hurts their financial interests, or are in law enforcement and don't want the responsibility to make tricky decisions about what is or is not "lewd", as California law requires (even though it's their job to do that).

What should naturists be doing about this kind of problem? In my opinion, it's short-sighted to think that just strongly denouncing people who behave lewdly is sufficient to address the problem. Ideally, there would be enough naturists in the population to actively curtail lewd behavior that could reflect badly on naturists who aren't being lewd. That's what happens at successful nude beaches like Haulover.

So my conclusion is that the real long-term solution is: More Naturists. That will make much more possible than simply curtailing lewd behavior. It will also - most importantly - make it possible to politically oppose people who insist, for their own selfish reasons, on passing or defending laws against naturist nudity.

This is precisely the strategy that succeeded for gay rights. Although there weren't actually more people who were gay, the result of so many gay people "coming out" was that the public perception of the real number changed significantly. 

"If there's some strategy that calls for us to pass false information around, maybe you can explain it."

If you are implying that was a strategy I advocated, that is insulting, and I expect an apology.

"We shouldn't be hesitant about demanding a stop to this stuff!"

You can make demands until you're blue in the face. Perhaps this makes you feel better and more righteous, but as a strategy it flops. Political action is the only thing that eventually makes a significant difference. This is what NAC is set up for, but it's limited by the rather meager amount of financial and other support it gets from the naturist community. Maybe if there were More Naturists....

An example of significant successful naturist political action may be British Naturism's efforts with regard to British laws on naturism and nudity. I haven't studied this closely, but my impression is that advocacy on behalf of naturism by BN resulted in a more lenient approach to nudity in British law. Here's a document that spells out the current situation: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/nudity-public-guidance-handling-cases-naturism (https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/nudity-public-guidance-handling-cases-naturism) If this had been applied in the San Francisco case, the outcome would have been much better.

"Whoever is doing us harm, we should say clearly what the problem is."

I completely agree with that - with strong emphasis on the "whoever" part. That includes far more than just a few crazy exhibitionists.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 24, 2019, 10:28:08 PM
JBG, you don't seem to be geting this. The people who did the damage in San Francisco weren't naturists in any sense, confrontational or not--they were exhibitionists. The state of the law allowed them to show their penis rings in public, and that's what they did. When their rights were taken away along with everyone else's, they stopped. We can say what we want to about that city law, but it accomplished its purpose.

Aux contrarie (picture Bugs Bunny with a carrot in hand): I saw penis rings in some pictures, not on all bodies, but never saw any mention of them, or erections.

I must say that I didn't realize that they were for erectile dysfunction and half a dozen kinds are sold at Walmart! I thought that they were for enhancement and some kind of notion of jewelry.

The ban was nudity, not mentioning cockrings. Have you seen the videos of Gyps Taub standing on the lectern and tables shouting at the council members? She was our defense as far as I know. I don't see me describing the nude people as naturists, just reactionaries.

Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: John P on February 25, 2019, 11:38:39 AM
JBG, I don’t know what you mean when you use the word “reactionary”. My understanding of it in political or social discussion is that it refers to someone who wants to restore a former system of government or state of society, and you seem to mean something else.

It’s a valid point to suggest that politics will help us achieve naturist goals. But then again, naturist rights were lost via the political process in San Francisco, after the business owners in the Castro district requested action to remove the exhibitionists, and Scott Wiener (the Board of Supervisors member for that district) responded. At the time, I asked on other naturist boards if there were any naturists in San Francisco who could speak for our side of the issue, but there wasn’t much response. I don’t think the Naturist Action Committee achieved anything by suggesting that the police could enforce existing laws against lewdness; the police basically said it wasn’t a problem that they cared to solve. As far as I know, Gypsy Taub wasn’t involved then, and since she did join the struggle, she’s acted the part of a clown rather than a useful advocate. I’ve seen videos of her in action, and she looks pathetic, a lone naked woman ranting, while nobody listens.

Naturistplace, maybe in the blogging world you’re used to saying whatever you want and having a veto over whatever anyone says in response. Out in an open forum, you’re responsible for getting your facts right and defending what you say, if you can. You’ve made it clear that you did know about the role of exhibitionists in the San Francisco defeat, yet you chose to describe the situation differently. I’d still like to know why you did that. “You’re offending me” isn’t much of an explanation.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Peter S on February 25, 2019, 01:53:21 PM
Quote
Some other people were not only naked but also behaving lewdly. That's of course not naturist, and wasn't legal under California law either. I don't know whether or not the latter people claimed to be naturists, but they certainly weren't, and no legitimate naturist would condone the lewdness. Those who weren't behaving lewdly were absolutely, positively exercising their rights.

Same old problem - the few spoil it for the many.

The onlookers - local businesses, Mr Wiener, casual tourists, frightened parents etc - just saw naked people and judged all by those they found most outrageous. What else would you expect?

Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 25, 2019, 08:29:50 PM
JBG, I don’t know what you mean when you use the word “reactionary”. My understanding of it in political or social discussion is that it refers to someone who wants to restore a former system of government or state of society, and you seem to mean something else....

I don't see where I used the term in all of the witting that I have been doing. I just now got tired of looking. I'm sure that I was using the def #4 from Websters, " : the force that a body subjected to the action of a force from another body exerts in the opposite direction"

I wasn't aware that the term is commonly leveled at conservative reactions until looking it up just now.

The definition that I was assuming had to do with "anyone" reacting instead of taking proactive, or planned actions. Sorry for the confusion.
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Naturistplace on February 26, 2019, 08:48:00 AM
Naturistplace, maybe in the blogging world you’re used to saying whatever you want and having a veto over whatever anyone says in response. Out in an open forum, you’re responsible for getting your facts right and defending what you say, if you can. You’ve made it clear that you did know about the role of exhibitionists in the San Francisco defeat, yet you chose to describe the situation differently. I’d still like to know why you did that. “You’re offending me” isn’t much of an explanation.

"you chose to describe the situation differently"

Yes, I chose to describe the situation accurately, but differently from the way this person prefers - because there was much more involved. Apparently that isn't permissible.

This person's arguments (such as they are) are wrong since they focus on only one cause of a particular outcome, The reality in the issue under discussion is that there are a number of causes, several of which I named. The person requested an explanation and was given a very good one, consisting of several different points. I was quite clear, and it's unfortunate he couldn't understand. People, in general, won't understand what they are motivated to not understand.

If this discussion continues, I know how it will go. On one side will be someone who seemingly prefers to write only about men wearing cock rings, even though there are far more serious problems. On the other side there will be rational examination of all the other factors that are relevant here.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on February 26, 2019, 08:28:57 PM
Considering all of the various factors involved, absolutely correct, or not, I presume that it is more complex than news accounts and some video of Taub and her friends, what are the mistakes and how could such a situation be avoided in the future?

Could we set up a model that would more likely win the day? Could we list the shortcomings and the positives and the possibilities and the mistakes made?

One is to distinguish the line between lewd and just nude. This line and the consequences have damaging potential in the UK, when lewd pushes its limits, hiding behind the BN work. It would seem that those rings are of a sexual nature. But then a small G-string could be considered that as well. For that matter, much of fashion is provocative. Handling oneself could be considered sexual. There are many subtle body movements that are confusing to interpret. What is lewd and what isn't? "I know it when I see it" is dangerous.

Anything intentionally drawing attention to the genitals could be interpreted as lewd and so decoration would be lewd? Parades in San Fran are sometimes celebrating sexuality of all sorts, but do we expect that that behavior to be condoned on the street?

Would the line be simply nude, to be simply nude, and then any decoration to be with sexual implications?

What is a judge to do? What is a cop on the street to do? Place the word intent into the law?
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: John P on February 28, 2019, 10:43:11 AM
JBG, you're bringing up some difficult issues, but just becasue they're difficult I don't think we should ignore them. Instead I would say we should keep discussion open, and make it clear that naturists do recognize sexual motivation when someone involves it with nudity. (As in San Francisco.) Maybe there's a limit to how far we can take this, but I always like the concept that "Naturists do what everyone else does, only we do it naked." That means we can be just as outraged as anyone else if we see sexuality expressed in public. We can be naturist prudes, even--why not? We've got a right to as many opinions as the  rest of the world!

As for revealing clothing, I do recall hearing a way it related to nudism, though it wasn't recently. The idea was that people play games with clothing (I suppose this means particlarly women's clothing) saying "I'll show you this but not that. It's a tease, not an honest way of dealing with each other. We could say that getting naked brings the game to an end, with no parts hidden and no parts emphasized. I like the direction that this goes in, but maybe it's a little too advanced for the world just at present. It might indeed end up saying the body can be lewd when clothed, but is automatically innocent when naked.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: BlueTrain on February 28, 2019, 01:20:33 PM
'I'm looking for solutions, something fresh. One reason that I brought up gays is that they were once more abhorrent and despised and persecuted than we have been. All of that changed."

Pardon me for saying so but I think that's the error in your reasoning. It hasn't all changed, not by a long shot. The battles and controversies are more visible and some people are learning to put up with it but I don't think there's been any real change in enough people's attitudes--yet.

Another problem, and I understand the reasons stated somewhere above, is distinguishing between "real" nudists and those who are simply naked. Nobody owns "nudism", not these days, although I imagine the claim could have been made at one time, by who I don't know. It's a little like race. It isn't so much what color or race you are so much as who gets to say what it is. Nobody has to prove the purity of their ancestry back to 1750 to say whatever they are. And if someone says they're a nudist, who's to say otherwise? 
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on March 01, 2019, 02:30:36 AM
'I'm looking for solutions, something fresh. One reason that I brought up gays is that they were once more abhorrent and despised and persecuted than we have been. All of that changed."

Pardon me for saying so but I think that's the error in your reasoning. It hasn't all changed, not by a long shot. The battles and controversies are more visible and some people are learning to put up with it but I don't think there's been any real change in enough people's attitudes--yet.

Another problem, and I understand the reasons stated somewhere above, is distinguishing between "real" nudists and those who are simply naked. Nobody owns "nudism", not these days, although I imagine the claim could have been made at one time, by who I don't know. It's a little like race. It isn't so much what color or race you are so much as who gets to say what it is. Nobody has to prove the purity of their ancestry back to 1750 to say whatever they are. And if someone says they're a nudist, who's to say otherwise?
I don't know where you are hanging out. In the media, the law, the outspoken, the coming out, in the high schools, things have come a long long way in a relatively short time for LBGTQ, etc. There are of course still many poepl living with old ingrained standards. 60 years later, there are still people hanging on to racial prejudice and opinions, even in the White House.

I'm not sure if you are referring to that, or attitudes of nudity, however. Could you clarify. We naturists have a long way to go, but we have seen a great deal of progress in many ways.

Paragraph #3: Nudism and naturism is broad and definitions do vary as do subsets of activity
Jbee.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on March 01, 2019, 03:33:13 AM
JBG, you're bringing up some difficult issues, but just becasue they're difficult I don't think we should ignore them. Instead I would say we should keep discussion open, and make it clear that naturists do recognize sexual motivation when someone involves it with nudity. (As in San Francisco.) Maybe there's a limit to how far we can take this, but I always like the concept that "Naturists do what everyone else does, only we do it naked." That means we can be just as outraged as anyone else if we see sexuality expressed in public. We can be naturist prudes, even--why not? We've got a right to as many opinions as the  rest of the world!

As for revealing clothing, I do recall hearing a way it related to nudism, though it wasn't recently. The idea was that people play games with clothing (I suppose this means particlarly women's clothing) saying "I'll show you this but not that. It's a tease, not an honest way of dealing with each other. We could say that getting naked brings the game to an end, with no parts hidden and no parts emphasized. I like the direction that this goes in, but maybe it's a little too advanced for the world just at present. It might indeed end up saying the body can be lewd when clothed, but is automatically innocent when naked.
"’Naturists do what everyone else does, only we do it naked.’ That means we can be just as outraged as anyone else if we see sexuality expressed in public. We can be naturist prudes, even--why not? We've got a right to as many opinions as the  rest of the world!”
That is the simple message that I think we want to put across, liberation. We are as normal and varied as the rest of the world. We just have lost the hangups of clothing and enjoy being without it. Hey listen you all “We are you but without clothing.” This was a gay strategy. All of these normal people living and working next to everyone else suddenly coming out of the closet. Then the president says, “Don’t matter who you love,” just as m normal as can be.


“As for revealing clothing, I do recall hearing a way it related to nudism, though it wasn't recently. The idea was that people play games with clothing (I suppose this means particlarly women's clothing) saying "I'll show you this but not that. It's a tease, not an honest way of dealing with each other. We could say that getting naked brings the game to an end, with no parts hidden and no parts emphasized. I like the direction that this goes in, but maybe it's a little too advanced for the world just at present. It might indeed end up saying the body can be lewd when clothed, but is automatically innocent when naked.”

We must accept that people will play games. The only antidote to the unhealthy part of this, so far, is self-awareness, and that isn’t changing everyone.

There are sexual games played popularly with clothing, but then there are sexual games played without clothing. There is the move to remove the covering of public hair, taking away curiosity. Just the subtle movement of crossing legs, postures and poses can be alluring or taken sexually, as another example.
 
At a social naturist gathering like a club or resort, these things are readily identifiable. They are shunned generally. Those places are washed out sexually, even prudish, “There are kids here.” “We don’t want people to feel uncomfortable.” We have been discussing this in concern at our sweat. “Nothing sexually provocative.” It is generally easy to figure out, even amongst a crowd filled with hippies, some still thinking in terms of free love. After disrobing, nudity makes people more self-aware in many ways.

This IS confusing. I was just invited to an introduction to investigate a group that is addressing issues of social sexuality and wanting to do something in the larger community. I’m looking into addressing these issues of social nudity and sexuality with these “experts” in the field of sexuality. There is a movement, like in metoo, that is stumbling through civil social interaction in society. All of this tends to be looking at a new social order and better semblance of expectation. What is possible, what is human nature, what works. The host is an old friend, who is new to the nudity thing, but healthy about it, has been to my sweat, loves naturism, has wandered out to Havarock with me. She is also a licensed sex therapist. There should be some entertaining discussion and maybe some revelations. If I am able to swing this, I’ll inform here.
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Bob Knows on March 01, 2019, 05:23:12 AM
The biggest problem holding nudists back from demanding nudist rights are nudists themselves.   Far too many nudists believe and support the anti-nude supposition that people have a "right" not to see a nude person, and that person's prejudice is more important than a nude person's right to be nude.   Gay people won because gay people believed that gay people had a right to be gay.   Not so with far too many nudists.  Even nude organizations such as AANR will only support a right to be naked on private property in "appropriate" locations.  Too many nudists support the other people's supposed "right" not to see and be "offended" by seeing a human body.   The enemy is nudists who won't stand up for nude rights.     
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: BlueTrain on March 01, 2019, 11:49:07 AM
"I'm not sure if you are referring to that, or attitudes of nudity, however. Could you clarify. We naturists have a long way to go, but we have seen a great deal of progress in many ways."

I was referring to both. Now, what do you mean by where do I hang out? I'm in my 70s. I don't think I hang out anywhere. But most of those we associate with are in our "age bracket," and most of them are older.

An event that made me think about how far we have supposedly come was the rioting in Charlottesville, Virginia, a few years ago. Well, my wife's cousin, a woman, is legally married to another woman, with whom she has been with longer than her brother was married to his wife. We don't live that close to one another but we socialize at family gatherings and are always happy to be with them. Anyway, Charlottesville is a university town, with all that implies, mainly liberal thinking. Yet, there, of all places, was a serious disturbance in 2017 with one fatality and many injured. In other words, it wasn't such a liberal place after all. Oh, I know, it was all those out of state people who were causing the trouble but the underlying issues are still there. We aren't so liberal after all.

Any mention of rights gets squishy. Where do rights come from? Out of thin air? Do they have to be enumerated in the constitution (where they will be bypassed and ignored)? When do you have these rights? What are other people's rights in relation to anyone else's rights? Comparison with homosexuals is not a great example. In theory, say some, gay people do not choose to be gay. They just are, irrespective of whether they have a right to be or not. Inter-racial marriage might be a better example. Simply put, does one have a right to marry anyone they wish? Or any two?

The AANR has a long history of wanting to keep nudity private, the idea being that doing so was the only way nudists (card-carrying nudist, too) could enjoy any outdoor nudity. Even that has been illegal in some places in the U.S.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on March 02, 2019, 12:19:09 AM
YA got a right to love anywhich way it is inherent and natural. No arranged marriages, no forced marriages, or attachments. Marriage is what people make of them, they vary. Many can make a choice as to which sex they will attach to and at different times in their lives, Many times more of the population cna choose, or find themselves choosing, than are strictly homosexual.
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on March 02, 2019, 12:45:22 AM
Yea, Bob, ANRR came out of the eras when it was down right dangerous to be nude. Clubs were being destroyed and people were being thrown in jail as deviates. Many of the clubs still fear local authorities, personal repercussions, arrest, prosecution/persecutions, political grandstand voter manipulation. We have come a long way.

But now, the behaviors that seemed appropriate a long time a go, are not valid anymore. Time to come out of the closet and talk about it. Time for those curious, or young to get manipulated into researching, experimenting and talking about it. It isn't nudist that are the problem, but nudist living in fear of something that generally isn't as big and nasty as they think. Assumptions of the attitudes of others, misinformation all play a part.

Even clubs will have a place in a nude lawless land, just because they are safe and provide the camaraderie of similar interests. They are good places for kids.

So, it would seem that a prude needs to be called a prude (who wants that label?), sexual intent needs to be called out for what it is, clothing is generally silly games and seeing/being seen as naked bodies is fun, but not such a big deal. Being naked is wonderful and every body needs to know that, somehow. Is that the conclusion and our message? It does seem very reasonable and realistic to me.

So, how do we get these entrenched nudists out and about? The last time that I sat in a socially nude nudist situation, the person next to me told us that she was a higher ranking cop of some sort and she was clearly concerned about losing her image of authority at work among the culture of her peers. The Tucson cops are are generally more conservative, or backward someway apparently.
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: BlueTrain on March 02, 2019, 05:30:38 PM
Well, I wouldn't want to be called imprudent.

I'd say that the nudist club nudists are happy where they are, the same way the people at the private swim club that we belong to (and which only my wife goes to). Who knows? Maybe they don't go anywhere else. I have visited a landed club but it failed to interest me enough to make a second visit. But that was only that club. Perhaps a different club would have interested me more. As it was, it was no different from the swim club we belong to, although the pool was tiny and there was a clubhouse. The people there were certainly friendly enough and of varied ages. But it was way too far away for any realistic possibility for reasonably frequent visits. Same thing with another club in a different direction. I guess I really didn't have any particular desire to see other naked people.

I hate to admit it but (here we go with the labels again) I guess I really am a free range nudist. But you've probably already figured out that I'm probably not like many of the rest of those here. I hope that's not important.
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Bob Knows on March 03, 2019, 02:52:42 PM
Yea, Bob, ANRR came out of the eras when it was down right dangerous to be nude. Clubs were being destroyed and people were being thrown in jail as deviates. Many of the clubs still fear local authorities, personal repercussions, arrest, prosecution/persecutions, political grandstand voter manipulation. We have come a long way.
Jbee

So did BN, but BN now is a strong advocate for free range nudism.    It hasn't been "down right dangerous" in the lifetimes of today's nudists.  Its past time for AANR to live up to its promise of promoting general nudism.

 
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on March 03, 2019, 07:42:21 PM
Yea, Bob, ANRR came out of the eras when it was down right dangerous to be nude. Clubs were being destroyed and people were being thrown in jail as deviates. Many of the clubs still fear local authorities, personal repercussions, arrest, prosecution/persecutions, political grandstand voter manipulation. We have come a long way.
Jbee

So did BN, but BN now is a strong advocate for free range nudism.    It hasn't been "down right dangerous" in the lifetimes of today's nudists.  Its past time for AANR to live up to its promise of promoting general nudism.
Yes, but not just general nudism, but portaging it as a natural, honorable and a safe state of being. Something that is generally appropriate, not just in "appropriate" circumstances.

Yea AANR, there ain't nothin' wrong about it. Stop thinking of it as being without clothes. Nudism is different from just nude. Nudism implies that clothing is the nature of being a human. Nude is just being...oops Bob, we are having a semantics disagreement. What do you think? Is it a time to still let them think that they are without clothes, instead of being clothed as the change to being in a natural state?

Is "nudism" a definition of being natural, or being without clothes? The Webster's definition has been oriented to being without clothes by probably people who constantly wear clothing and are hung up on Latin suffixes.

I think that this is a newer take on our worn out debate about defining "nudist" and "naturist." It is something that might be settled, unlike the former debate.
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on March 03, 2019, 08:29:53 PM
Perhaps we all might coin the term textilism, or textilist? The practice of not being nude. That seems more appropriate to our state of nature. It is not unnatural to wear coverings on a cold day, to decorate, but a compulsive need? Now, that is something to be concerned about. Is it pathological?

If nudism is being defined and thrust upon the world as being without clothes, when it is the natural state.
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on March 03, 2019, 08:55:41 PM
AANR is the American Association of Nude Recreation. It's title only tells us that it is about nude recreation, not general nudity. It is about resorts and roped off beaches. It is not about body liberation. It is old hat and geared to promote segregated nude commercial activities.

The Naturist Society doesn't have that mandate. It came out of the free beach movement, which was not just about compromising by establishing nude beaches, but body rights and freedom. Reading the magazine, which is its major way of communicating what it is about and its main self perpetuation, it supports free range naturism. It just published my article about nude hiking and mentioned my free range naturist website. NAC a branch of it, supports us by covering law, protecting nude rights, and informing people with information that keeps free range naturists from getting into legal difficulties. NEC another branch informs about naturism in general.

I see AANR expanding by mentioning free range, but their stated philosophy and mission is rooted and still claims that nude bodies are inappropriate in most settings, something is wrong with nudity.

This tells me where to put my support. It makes me feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot to support AANR. They have their place, but not as the face of naturism, body rights, free range, or uncovering the inherent reality under the facade of social propriety.
Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on March 27, 2019, 10:09:34 PM
I Like This Guys Style:

He produced a video about free range hiking in Colorado. His demeanor is frank, personal and wholesome. It is however, too bad to be sitting in the adult section of Youtube a click or two away from and mixed in with all sorts of voyeur stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chJsiHkIRuU

Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: jbeegoode on March 27, 2019, 10:17:29 PM
"Let’s do all this to promote nudism" is a lengthy article, well put and quite zealous and energetic. He has some fresh ideas in there and some interesting resources.

https://rfgjga1992.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/lets-do-all-this-to-promote-nudism/

Jbee
Title: Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
Post by: Bob Knows on March 28, 2019, 02:33:37 PM
"Let’s do all this to promote nudism" is a lengthy article, well put and quite zealous and energetic. He has some fresh ideas in there and some interesting resources.

https://rfgjga1992.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/lets-do-all-this-to-promote-nudism/
Jbee

Good article, good ideas.  We can all do stuff like that.