Free Range Naturism

Naturism => General Naturism Discussion => Topic started by: jbeegoode on March 24, 2020, 09:21:23 AM

Title: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on March 24, 2020, 09:21:23 AM
There is a constant burden of hiding from Corona Virus19. It floats through the air, it sits on surfaces for a day and a half to 3 days. If I just go to the grocery, I have to touch surfaces. Who handled the package? Who wrapped the package, how many packages did the checkout clerk touch from how many people with those gloves. The other day I’m standing in a long line at Sprouts and some guy coughs behind me, creepy! Is my back coated, when can I start breathing again? Should I shower when I get home?

What’s to do? Wear a mask? Wash the hands, keep hand sanitizer handy. There was a bottle of hand sanitizer at the store as I was leaving, or going, So, I grabbed it to use and realized, “cripe,” who touched this bottle. The wipes aren’t there, people kept stealing them.

So, DF and I will be conscious of each surface, wash before using the car steering wheel, the locked door, the door to the house. BUT, when we get home, we just made it policy to take off the shoes before entering and stash them. I’ll be using flip flops. Don’t want to track germs in and then get little DNA thingys absorbed into our bare feet, or float through the air with dust particles. Sheesh, can’t go barefoot in public places!

THEN, drop off the clothing in a dirty bin and STAY NAKED until we need more food.

Fortunately, this produces a need for entertainment, and one of our favorites is nude hiking/camping. It is perfect for stress, stir crazy dis-ease, health, exercise and fun. No concern for social distancing.

A local bar/restaurant is going to stream live music shows, so we can dance in the living room…naked. We’re going to order food from them for pickup, to support them for being so cool. All the bars, restaurants, movies, etc. are now closed by law.
I know that the extreme temperatures in a sweat kill critters, but I found out today that the virus is not a living thing. The body does build immunity with fever. Higher temps are a part of that. Sauna does raise the temp of a body like fever. A very hot dry sauna as well as wet and humid will burn lungs to an extent. I can feel it as I breathe. Other illness is often treated with sauna, in various cultures. I looked around for information and found another SAR Corona couldn’t take the heat:

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/av/2011/734690/

There is a lot to get used to, but fortunately we already have honed several strategies, like staying naked most of the time, which keeps us a good social distance from most of the others.

How to cope with lockdown? I’m eating well, not binging on Netflix, and catching up.

I’ve taken to running in the neighborhood. I run full tilt for a count of one thousand twenty and then rest until I’m ready to do more. Today, I was rest walking down the street and a guy pulled very close to me as he passed. Just being a jerk, he knew. So he stops at the stop sign and continues straight on a dead end street.

It is time for me to start my bolt. I’m running as fast and hard as I can down the same street as this guy. He gets to the end of the street and then crosses over through a deep ditch, slipping on his street tires on the grass, just about scraping his bumper. He takes off the other direction. He thinks that I’m after him!  ;D

What might happen if the police saw me running so hard?  ???
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on March 24, 2020, 09:52:19 AM
the uk strategy is based on reducing the peak demand on the health service by delaying when some of the masses catch it,  the assumption is most if not everyone will catch the virus eventually.

we are relatively fit with no underlying health concerns so may not show any symptoms when weve been infected, were just avoiding unnecessary contact with other people and going about our own business pretty much as before.  we dont have to leave home except for food shopping but if i decide to go for a walk down the lane its unlikely ill even see anyone let alone get close to them .  were not faffing arround with steralisers cos we dont beleive we can be 100% effective so its a lot of bother for maybe a short delay before inevitable infection , which we are likely not even to notice.

basic hygiene and avoid close personal contact

Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: BlueTrain on March 24, 2020, 01:22:10 PM
Someone wrote in response to the advice about social distancing that they were Scandinavian and they had been preparing for this moment their whole lives. The British should have no problem with that, either. One family member is Serbian and they do the double-kissing thing and I did in fact see her two weeks ago but all we did was shake hands, even though she told me she had been with a group of Egyptians a few days ago.

Although complete isolation should be 100% effective in avoiding just about all sicknesses, there is another side to that practice. I call people who are paranoid about health and sickness and do everything they can to live in a sterile environment "hothouse people." The best way to stay healthy is to have a vigorous constitution, although that certainly doesn't always work. We surrounded by germs and viruses and your body easily resists most of them. But then along comes something your body can't handle and you're down for the count, so to say. My wife's uncle (her father's brother) died of polio (remember the polio epidemic?) inside the space of a week. And people still get polio, which is a virus. But when did you hear anyone talk about polio lately?
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on March 24, 2020, 05:47:40 PM
I have seen several published photos showing hundreds of hikers frequenting backwoods trails and mountain tops during the CV19 shutdown. It may be a lot more crowded for free range naturism than other times.   
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on March 24, 2020, 07:47:22 PM
I'd imagine the popular trails and spots to be busier, but I don't do those much. The more difficult to reach, as usual, will have someone on them, but it is generally okay out there. People will be staying around the trailhead and campsites and be more crowded, but the same behaviors should persist and few will walk away from that the area.

Maybe more will see us out there and know that people do this and it is okay and good.

Regulated camping areas will be a problem as things warm up and forest rangers will be out telling people to move on when they camp in the wrong spots. Again, we go more remote.

I notice that sometimes the streets are nearly empty and people at ease parked at lights are not watching traffic and lights as much and look around next to them. Using angles will come in handy.

Strangely, I think that I have been seeing more accidents at intersections. When I saw one, there were four police cars each blocking each direction with flares and the whole thing. Nothing else to do, I suppose. That is usually a routine one or two patrol car situation.

If the virus follows the tendencies of other ones, it will peak in May and start to dissipate. That brings us into outdoors warm season. We'll see how it goes. People will be getting stir crazy soon. Money troubles may cause weird behaviors and increased theft. The government probably won't do enough for the folks that really need help. So, break-ins to cars parked remotely may increase. I'd expect more of that in populated areas. I'd expect to see more trash and potential for fires from the increase in ignorant campers. It might be a good thing to take along a trash bag when nude walking, or even use that as the activities purpose. Can we call it something? Nude trash pickup doesn't sound fun enough.

Gas prices will be down. Good times for nude cruising.
Jbee

Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on March 24, 2020, 08:23:00 PM
ric, I had a corona just a month six weeks ago, a light one. My lungs are still not right.I also had one a year ago last December, when stress coupled with it laid me out and it took another couple of months to get completely over it. The coughing blew out my hernia. Being sick and tired of being sick and tired, I am doing what I can to stay away from it. Maybe next year when there are some mitigation, or cure drugs out there.

It is tough on healthy people, too, just not as deadly. Statistics suggest that it is often a real dick i te dirt, kick 'em when he's down experience. We hear about the deaths, but that doesn't include people needing hospitalization. The greater death rate indicates to me, that it is very rough on a body. For young healthy people, 20 times more are dying that flu, .o1% compared to .2%.
Flu kills at .06% for 50's folk and 65+ is .83%. Compare that with this stuff, 50's folk at 1.3%, but from there, it jumps 60's 3.6%, 70's 8% and 80's+ people 15%. Something like 16% are being hospitalized according to an AP article a couple of weeks back (that could be erroneous for a number of reasons). My point being, that it gets people very very sick and not just the unhealthy ones. As healthy as I am, I'm not risking, and it isn't inevitable. One recent stat shows out of 250,000 only 102,000 have recovered and a whole lot are dead. 140,000 or more are still sick.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on March 25, 2020, 09:38:59 AM
i dont see how we can have any meaningful population wide statistics on infection rates unless you are testing the whole population routinely.   we currently have no idea how much of the general  population have had the virus with no or minimal unreported symptoms.   you only get a baseline figure when the patient contacts the health service with definite symptoms then you can start with percentages of those that need treatment and hospitalisation and subsequent deaths.    and theres no attempt at quantifying the deaths into otherwise healthy and those that would be stuffed by any infection because of other preexisting health problems.

as life in general all the well publisised statistics are devised to make the point the publisist was trying to ram home.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: BlueTrain on March 25, 2020, 12:10:48 PM
Are elections meaningful when only half the electorate votes? You go with what you got.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Peter S on March 25, 2020, 04:37:57 PM
Are elections meaningful when only half the electorate votes? You go with what you got.

Arguably not, but as you say, you get what you get. But elections aren’t illness statistics, and in the words of whoever originally said it, there are lies, damned lies and statistics. I’m with ric, the mortality rate is meaningless without knowing how many actually contract the illness, and many who do don’t even know they’ve got it. And how many of those who died were about to die anyway? All we can get from the numbers is that some people get the illness, some don’t, and some die.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on March 25, 2020, 08:15:24 PM
Oxford study in UK, "half the population would have already been infected."

Coronavirus has been around a lot longer than most people know. 

https://theweek.com/speedreads/904584/new-oxford-study-suggests-millions-people-may-have-already-built-coronavirus-immunity
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Davie on March 25, 2020, 09:47:33 PM
Which may or may not be true. This paper needs to be subject of peer review. I will keep an open mind. What is true is that at the moment the virus is a serious threat. My next door neighbour, a doctor, is seeing it all happen close up. It seems that the less mature may not be as resilient as they first thought they would be and many of us are still at risk.

The important fact is we need to be aware of the danger, listen to the professional advice, ignore conspiracy theories and in Sir Winston Churchill's words, "Keep buggering on."

Keep safe every one

Davie  8)
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: BlueTrain on March 25, 2020, 10:57:58 PM
Churchill said that?

Churchill also said that America will always do the right thing, after they have done all the wrong things.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on March 26, 2020, 10:21:14 AM
im sceptical about the virus being arround a lot longer than we thought,  if it had been wed have started seeing patients with symptoms a lot sooner.


uk is probable in a relatively good , or less bad, position to weather the economic effects cos were all stocked up to deal with supply problems during brexit.    however a lot of european countries were in economic trouble before the virus arrived and nobody seem to have given any thought as to the future of the eu without the massive financial donations the uk used to make.  i understand that germany ,  seen as the strong economy in the eu , has stated that they can only cope with a 6 week shutdown...how the hell are portugal, spain, italy greece et al going to come through this.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: BlueTrain on March 26, 2020, 12:18:50 PM
It may have been a matter of the symptoms not being correctly identified earlier. As far as national finances go, the congress just passed a gazillion dollar 'rescue bill.' Clearly, that isn't going to come from any tax revenue and in fact, somebody even wants to cut taxes (again). Pretty soon, the biggest expense the federal government will have is interest on the national debt. If I were you, I wouldn't loan the federal government any money. We're stuck with some Confederate bonds ourselves and you know how that turned out. 
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on March 26, 2020, 08:09:11 PM
Dat true, ric. Both flu and Corona 19 stats have to be scued to some degree. But, because of the dramatic difference and rate of hospitalizations there is strong suggestion that it is a very tough bugger, tougher. Again, my point being that it is a very crappy experience, more than other viruses for more people and many more are dying. I don't want it. I don't trust that there would be a respirator for me. There is no preparation for this. The budget for that prep was destroyed as unnecessary waste, by Trump. I remember, I knew it was coming sometime and when he did it and at that time, I balked.

I still am clearing flem and my lungs bother me from a mild corona virus that I had just before leaving for Mexico a month ago. I'm weak there and don't want to risk it. Not to mention, I'm sick and tired of being....

I'm staying home, I'm thinking about camping out for extended periods, if the weather works out. DF is working with patients and may be exposed eventually. I'm revising my glamping outfit earlier than the plans for summer's outings. It may be a good time to reflect, write and play my guitar naked in nature...hmmm, good anytime.

I'm sitting on cash looking for real-estate. The expectation is that the US economy will have a recession "at least" as bad as 2008. I don't want to buy high, or get stuck with inflation from them trying to keep things afloat for super rich people. I'm riding things out and being aware. How big an economic problem it will be nobody really knows. MArkets with knee jerk fear reactions and also greed can be crazy. A president whose sense of the economy is based on the inflation and the times that these forces caught him over-extended and then bankrupt and his personal interests, could be a clue as to what will happen and drag the rest of the interlocking world down. When times get tough, like bankruptcy, Trump has always thrown others under the bus in his own interest.

What I do know, is that I can be okay, in the here and now, in nature and with that get used to living differently in peace.

I'm running daily, when I'm not out walking. Yesterday, I woke up in my SUV and walked naked into a forest of scrub that I'm not familiar with, observing spring flowers, listening to the silence and knowing where I was at at that time was all that mattered. Relief, recharge, a step away from it all. It was healthy all around. All of the concern is stressful and unhealthy, when we all need to build immunities and strength. Be here now, and the best way I know to attain that is FRN.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: nuduke on March 27, 2020, 02:38:39 AM
Quote
and then get little DNA thingys absorbed
They are RNA in fact :)


It's been wonderful weather last couple days.  Been walking a lot and a tiny bit of naked sunbathing. 


UK restriction on movement has got really stringent.  Police can now stop you and order you home and today they clarified that you must not drive to somewhere to take exercise. So I am stuck in the village - no frn opportunity.


John
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on March 27, 2020, 09:50:13 AM
uk indeed european thinking is you should stay locked indoors unless you need to go to shop for food, one walk for exercise per day or walk the dog , or to go to work.  theyve even been shutting urban parks and nature reserves.

spain is even restricting the dog walk to 50 metres.

already been reports of suicide.

personally ill be out in the sunshine , weve a large garden and open countryside on the doorstep. and convinced vit d is preventative, along with vit c from the fresh salad leaves in the poly tunnel.

in rural areas i dont think weve actually got enough policemen to make any attempt at patroling looking for walkers.   were about a mile from the village and theres been a noticeable increase in the number of walkers up the lane in the last week or so.


im self employed , doing gardening and selling used garden machinary , furniture etc on ebay,  ill continue to drive to customers gardens and deliver stuff thats sold, it needent involve personal contact with clients.
having said that overnight weve sold a lawn mower on ebay. small electric one to , collection only....to a bloke in yorkshire  ....nutter?

with the chancellors scheme to pay out based on last 3 years tax returns, the wives business having to close the retail premises and getting a payout based on business premises rates well be ok in the short to medium term.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: John P on March 28, 2020, 04:35:45 AM
I'd heard about that rule in Britain, where you're allowed to go out on foot or a bike, but driving a car to a place where you plan to walk isn't being allowed. Here we're so wedded to our cars that they can't tell us not to drive, but a couple of nonprofit organizations that own tracts of land have closed them--the Audubon Society and the Trustees of Reservations (Brits think of smaller versions of the National Trust). And I could hardly believe this when I heard it, but they're even telling people to stay off the Appalachian Trail:

http://appalachiantrail.org/home/community/blog/ATFootpath/2020/03/23/please-stay-off-the-appalachian-trail

You can read in Trip Reports that my friend Dan and I went for a beach walk last week, very conscious that we're likely to face more restrictions soon. Today was another nice day, and I took a walk in Middlesex Fells, an area of open space that's close to the city, and there were plenty of people on the trails. Fortunately the trails I walked on are wide enough to drive vehicles, and you could pass others coming the other way without needing to be very close. It's not quite warm enough for FRN, but when we do get more comfortable weather, it's going to be difficult to avoid the crowds.
Modify message
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Davie on March 28, 2020, 10:13:21 AM
We've brought sone of the restrictions on ourselves by over visiting popular spaces. Last weekend just before the restrictions came in my daughter and husband parked near a popular mountain, which was teaming with people. Instead of turning right and following the crowd they turned left and went up a slightly lower mountain and saw no-one.

This virus kills. My neighbour is a doctor and is seeing this first hand. I'd love to drive out to a  local place where I park up for a walk accross the fields but I am not allowed to  as some idiots would abuse  the right. For the time being we have to use the preventative measure we have - social distancing. Clearly in London and New York that is proving difficult.

Stay safe everyone

Davie 8)
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on March 28, 2020, 10:31:59 AM
my personal approach is know the rules and the reasons for them, then decide whats appropriat for your personal situation.
we have a small supermarket in the village, but have always once a week done the 10 mile drive to street / glastonbury where theres a sainsbury , lidle, tesco ,aldi, morrisons and petrol stations for mower petrol.   food shopping is allowed, the local small shop doesnt have the range of goods we buy even when fully stocked.

i usually go via the lanes which takes me past several places that are suitable for a naked stroll, one being many hectares of public access woodland so i see no harm in carrying on with appropriate precautions,  gloves for gates being the main one.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jmf on March 28, 2020, 10:39:40 AM
Since Tuesday 17 we have been in confinement to try to fight against the spread of the Covid-19 virus, so no more sports training with my group of runners that I used to meet twice a week. But short displacements, close to home, linked to the individual physical activity of people are still allowed with a movement certificate. So on Sunday 20 morning I went back to a small path close to my home, a path where I used to take my children when they were little, but which I hadn't used for many years. In fact this path follows the trajectory of a track for the wagons coming out of a cement stone mine. There are still a few traces of this old activity. Portions of rails on the ground, the walled exit of the mine and two rusty wagons abandoned at the side of the road. It is a place that is so little frequented in normal times that I thought I wouldn't meet anyone there under the current conditions and I allowed myself to run naked, even though it is so close to the city. The distance is not long, some 500 or 600 meters, but by making several round trips I made a small run of almost half an hour. That's always a good thing to do in this period of sporting scarcity.

(https://i.imgur.com/d3ouUf9.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/cVVBwpU.jpg)
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on March 28, 2020, 07:46:30 PM
That is what I used to do sometimes going to Havarock. Out the back door it is convenient, but not a strenuous longer hike. Sometimes, I'd walk it more than once. There is a field of beautiful rich colored stones there. I'd grab a couple in my hands and use them for weight pumps, collecting them for a home improvement project later.

This virus is more deadly than a rattlesnake, but either one can make for a rough ride, that I have every intention to avoid with caution. I have a friend in ICU right now. They're saying they don't know if she'll make it. I have another who is sitting at home, acting like he is on a curious adventure and can't taste anything with some light fever...so far.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: nuduke on March 28, 2020, 11:38:42 PM

We are well and truly locked down although thankfully our local store has supplies, if rather intermittent.  You have to get intelligence as to when their delivery is and get there just after.  Then most stuff is available but all the staples milk, bread, flour, paper products and whatnot go very quickly.  People aren't panicking or aggressive and the stores are all rationing now, but there has obviously been a large amount of fear-driven stockpiling and no doubt people coming from elsewhere and clearing shelves to sell on to others at inflated prices causing fast turnover of stock.  I think that part of the problem also is that our little store is serving a much larger population since mostly everyone is social distancing at home and so those that would get their lunch at work or would shop elsewhere on their way home are shopping locally for everything now.  The big supermarkets in nearby towns have no delivery slots for months.  Normally of they are busy you might have to book your slot the next day or perhaps 2 days away but nothing like the current situation.  It is obviously a widespread concern that there might be shortages later on making people stockpile.


Lockdown has offered me some increased naturist opportunity.  We have cleaners in once a fortnight to do the basic elbow grease jobs.  However, they can't come now so yesterday and today, I rolled my sleeves up....so far up that they were off completely and started doing the bathrooms, bedding, floors etc, all naked.  A couple or 3 hours over 2 days gets me round the whole house in a thorough clean.  Yesterday my wife started to object when she first saw me naked doing housework but I stamped on this to the effect of "For heaven's sake, dearest, I am doing the cleaning and you are not and it needs doing and its very warm.  Cut me some slack and just stop tut tutting every time I take my clothes off, let me get on with it in my own way".  Given that all she had to do was some light dusting, she grumpily agreed.  Today I was cleaning round her office area, where she was working at her PC, and the bathroom next door and despite her being able to see much of what I was doing she didn't object.  I suspect that was because she was engaged with what she was doing and not bothering to engage rather than further acquiescence from yesterday but I thanked her as I was finishing saying that I was glad she was cooperative and for me it was much cooler, I didn't have to walk around in clothes splashed with detergent and water whilst cleaning and that as she knew, this is how I prefer to be.  She was gracious and thanked me for taking on most of the the cleaning and allowed me to be naked for some time after that.  Bit of incrementalism occurred today I think. 


With my yoga classes packing up for the plague duration, I have been sadly neglecting my yoga but I've been taking a good aerobic walk every day.  However, I am a wreck at the moment - got a bad back in the lumbar area, my coccyx is giving me problems sitting, got a twisted knee, recovering from an injury to my thumb (sliced a lump off it with a craft knife - 7 stitches)  and in the last 2 days developed a painful crack in my heel (which my podiatrist described as a fissure).  The heel is more comfortable if I wear shoes, which I rarely do nowadays around the house and garden and since in these viral-avoiding times that's all there is, I'm pretty miffed.


So how's everyone else! :D


John
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on March 29, 2020, 11:16:42 AM
in the last few days ive also developed a cracked heel and for me more worrying a crack by the thumb nail, i hate wearing gloves whilst working.   i have found some evidence that vit b1 thiamine supplementation may help, im waiting for some 100mg pills to arrive in the post, then will start on one or two a day and see what happens.   previous years the cracks have been a pain for most of spring/early summer
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on March 29, 2020, 03:39:31 PM
in the last few days ive also developed a cracked heel and for me more worrying a crack by the thumb nail,

I can sympathize. I suffered from painful cracked heals for several years.  I treated them with superglue which worked for a while until the glue wore off.  Then more glue.

My heel cracks have all vanished since I started the Carnivore diet or "way of eating."   I posted more about that on another topic, but healthy skin is one of the benefits. 
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on March 29, 2020, 03:41:21 PM
Its the weather, not the lockdown that keeps me indoors.  Brrrrr!.   Another cold rainy spring. 
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: BlueTrain on March 29, 2020, 10:19:59 PM
You shouldn't isolate yourself from nature just because the weather is bad.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on March 30, 2020, 07:08:21 PM
Coconut oil, or more oil in your diet. Collagen is good for the nails bones and general elasticity as the body tends to produce less with age. Collagen is used on the skin. Both have to do with meat consumption.DF suggests shea butter and utter balm.

It is a good time to lie about, stretching, yoga doing for a body, creating healthy good food, but not too much. I'm doing raw food recipes, whose fresh ingredients are not the usual empty shelf items. Want to burn more calories than consumed. I've been going out in the neighborhood and sprinting full tilt for 20 second intervals then walking until I do it again. Trading massage, Good!
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on March 30, 2020, 08:00:43 PM
ive tried rubbing with coconut oil and olive oil and a more oily diet in previous years but its had no noticable benefits
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on March 30, 2020, 09:45:04 PM
New research shows that High Cholesterol may play an important role in our natural immunity to diseases such as Covid-19.  This research is consistent with last year's study showing that EU countries with average high cholesterol levels had lower mortality than countries with average low cholesterol.  Its my thinking that high use of statin drugs by men, to lower cholesterol, may be an important reason why more men than women die of Covid-19. 

"cholesterol is an extremely important part of the immune system."

"people with the highest cholesterol levels are best protected from cancer and infections"

http://statinnation.com/blog/2020/3/26/cholesterol-protects-against-covid-19?fbclid=IwAR3pUUniELhhmohXsCfYQVYRVGIIjuHuOvehXNz624P2AJB48jRLbhgCP-s
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on March 30, 2020, 09:51:38 PM
ive tried rubbing with coconut oil and olive oil and a more oily diet in previous years but its had no noticable benefits

I also tried "everything" to cure painful heel cracks over the past several years.  None of it worked until I started the carnivore diet (for other reasons) and got rid of all plant oils and plant products.   No coconut, canola, or olive oil.  Years of painful heel cracks just went away.  I do sometimes use animal fat for lotion on some of my skin.  Animal fat is really a big part of what healthy skin is made of.  If it gets too dry it needs more.   
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on March 31, 2020, 10:01:32 AM
Good or bad cholesterol, what kind?

None of the groups of people are very accurate statistical references. Not, the mortality, the age relationship, not even who got the virus and got their cholesterol checked. I don't trust this analysis of these studies, or someone putting them together to write this article.
It may be that the cholesterol drugs decrease immunity and the virus itself brings down the cholesterol, but there is nothing conclusive.

Then again, I don't trust the high cholesterol scare. It just sold lots of drugs. The doctors jumped onto the fad and then figured out that there is good and bad. The good is what is used to make Vitamin D. Lots of BS out there in medical circles. Isn't that part of the benefits of Vitamin D, protection against these cancers, immunites?
Jbee

Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on March 31, 2020, 11:55:03 AM
we all know that most of the health/diet advise given out in the last 50 years is somewhat dubious.....doesnt give a lot of confidence in the response to this latest virus.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: BlueTrain on March 31, 2020, 02:22:36 PM
Given that most advice, both good and bad, is ignored, it shouldn't be surprising that people don't care for advice. And nowhere is that better demonstrated than in the White House today.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on March 31, 2020, 04:49:37 PM
Given that most advice, both good and bad, is ignored, it shouldn't be surprising that people don't care for advice. And nowhere is that better demonstrated than in the White House today.

Yes, CDC, FDA, and the medical teams still push bad advice and medical industry profits.  There had to be some butt kicking this week even to get the Battelle PPE sanitizers approved. And, treating Covid-19 with Hydroxychloroquine is opposed by CDC and FDA because it isn't a monopoly profit center for big pharma corporations. Those doctors won't get bribes for approving the life saving medication.  Some more butt kicking had to be done to get that medication into the hands of American doctors.  Our President it taking charge and getting things done. 
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on March 31, 2020, 07:55:48 PM
The treating of Covid-19 with Hydroxychloroquine is a mentioned possibility simply because it has helped similar viruses, but it is not proven to help this and needs some test runs. It hasn't been dismissed. It is only a possibility and it isn't a safe and simple cure.

Trump was running off at the mouth and speaking prematurely about a possibility that was mentioned in a briefing that might be explored. This is not a coverup, or the usual FDA approval corruption. If the drug could be used, it would be. It might be used prematurely and it could complicate illness and cause people to die. It has not been proven at all to treat Corona19.

I knew that a form of virus pandemic would come sooner or later, the CDC knew that and it was well publicized. We needed measures to prepare for such an outbreak. Now, Trump lies and tells us, "Who knew?" He blatantly gutted the budget of the agency that addresses these issues of pandemic as malarkey using the kill big government drum beat. That is why we are not prepared AT ALL for this. He is scared and in denial of what is going on. He is losing his money, in fear. He is in fear of looking bad for elections and doing a poor job. He appears to me to be thinking even less straight than usual. Things are getting done in spite of him, while he Bullshits, minimizes the facts and wishes that the economy doesn't tank, but it will to some strong degree.

One thing about his reaction to this is certain. To save himself, he will throw anyone and everyone under the bus. This has always been his pattern throughout life.

Trump is not in control, or getting things done, he knows that and is saying any shot in the dark BS to smooth things out. I'm with you, I'm not a fan of the FDA, but this isn't corruption. It is Trump's rhetoric captured by zealot rumors from hasty conclusions, starting with Trump and now some of his supporters.

Our president is merely putting out statements with a slip of his tongue to look like he is getting things done and give some hope to people who react emotionally (like the stock market) to his performance, which has been pitiful. He knows that he gets lots of blame when things go badly, so he lies and bullshits to minimize what is going on. He isn't listening to experts and is dismissing important facts, not the other way around. He is seeing things crashing down and is in self-interested fear himself.

He just wants to say, "Okay, the shows over, everybody go home." But it is not anywhere near over and there will likely be a repeat performance. The damn fool has had to be repeatedly corrected by experts as he rambled on, misinformed and stained his pants watching the stockmarket, That is what is going on with "our president." (He is not my president, it is a corrupted political system.) He is doing a tremendously bad job, he isn't even looking like it, which is the one thing thing that he has been good at...and divisively bullying of others.

I'd like that malaria cure to work across the line, too. I hear you, I feel what you feel, but I can't agree with you on this.

We're on a ride that won't stop to let us off. He is, too.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on March 31, 2020, 08:11:21 PM
I'm ordering a new tent to do some glamping out in nature and taking care of my health.

It is an irritant and world of doubt, every time I go get food, or need to shop.

We went to Redington Pass yesterday and there was a guy telling us that he is wiping down his hands every time that he touches the rocks. People are getting extreme. The tight little trail was not 6 feet wide as we approached, so people were stuffing themselves in the cactus to avoid each other. Some were relaxed, as was the purpose of going there. On a Monday, it was packed. Too many people! There were lots of clothed people in the nude section, a bad sign. They may come back later. That's what happened in the other area where nudes were driven out. Very quickly, a shift happened. This time, there is no place to go.

It was in spite of this, a good experience. I may go there to spend a night or two, to escape.  I laid down closed my eyes and actually fell asleep in the sun next to a loud waterfall. When the crowds left in the later afternoon, it felt completely different.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on April 01, 2020, 02:37:20 AM
Shopping to gather my glamping set up is a problem with this pandemic, thing going on. The stuff that I need is getting grabbed up so people can set up their bug out schemes. The solar panel and battery pack set up was gone and I found empty shelves. I had to run all over town, waiting in lines six feet apart, getting a piece here and there. I just hope that I can get the tent in the morning. Why a sales rep working at home doesn't answer her phone to sell me a 900 tent makes me anxious.

Makes me feel like  just want to go glamping, bug out myself and find some peace.

Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on April 01, 2020, 07:55:25 AM
Oh the irony.  On TV news tonight in Washington State they featured the "Coronavirus Control Center" where govt. agencies, Health Dept. Fire Dept, Police Dept, County Govt, City Govt., etc., get together in 1 room for 12 hours per day to coordinate their Social Distance Program, how to force citizens to stay apart.  Let your mind mull that one over.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on April 01, 2020, 07:58:55 AM
I hope your campgrounds aren't all closed in AZ like they are here in WA.   Not that anyone wants to go camping at 40F with 40mph wind, and rain, snow, and graupel.  I need to move to AZ soon.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Peter S on April 01, 2020, 10:20:48 AM
What’s graupel, Bob? From the context it’s not one to put on my Christmas list, but not a term I’ve heard before.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on April 01, 2020, 04:31:14 PM
What’s graupel, Bob? From the context it’s not one to put on my Christmas list, but not a term I’ve heard before.

Graupel is round snow or soft hail.   From wikipedia:  "Graupel

"Graupel also called soft hail or snow pellets, is precipitation that forms when supercooled water droplets are collected and freeze on falling snowflakes, forming 2–5 mm balls of rime. The term graupel is the German language word for sleet. Graupel is distinct from hail and ice pellets. Hail is common in thunderstorms, while graupel typically falls in winter storms. The METAR code for graupel is GS."

We had a half inch of graupel yesterday.  Still covering the ground here in shady places. 
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on April 01, 2020, 06:18:06 PM
I'd heard that you Eskimos had a host of names for different types of ice! ;D

The weather just hit the 80's and there are many sunny days coming, if normal means anything anymore. That is my favorite time of weather and for getting out, there are greater opportunities. I'm looking for new hikes and places. Camping is nice, not too hot and the evenings are still warm weather, until after bedtime.

Bad news is that the last Hot Springs gathering has been cancelled. Now, no soaking until next November. DF has taken time off. I'm looking for alternative four day nude adventure. They can rope off the campgrounds, but not the countryside and gas is cheap. It will be a good time for honing the glamping, "summerhouse" system.

I've been focused on ulralight backpacking for years, now. This means lots of crap, even oriental rugs on the roof wrapped in plastic tubes. It is supposed to be a base back in the woods, far enough to wander miles nude and stay that way out for longer periods.  Only coming into town for shopping once a week, or so.

It has computer, but probably no internet, just maybe. Gotta store healthy food and ice for that long. Haven't decided which alternative to expensive "Yeti" coolers, yet.

Got a "Lovable Loo" yesterday! No digging holes every day. Walking, camping stuff, photos of wildlife, writing, guitar, exercise, meditation, prayer, solitude and camping activities. Social calendar and sweat can be overcome. This isolation is good practice.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on April 02, 2020, 01:43:48 AM
The weather just hit the 80's and there are many sunny days coming, Jbee

My wife had to drive through a blizzard conditions driving into town today.  Slow down, shift into 4 wheel drive, try to keep on the road.  Couple of more inches of snow.  Need to move to Arizona.   
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on April 02, 2020, 11:03:54 AM
weve had a week of cold winds in uk but at least here the rain has stopped...now the dust is blowing...been in single figures celcius during the day and a couple of very light frosts in the past week, next week is forcast to be well into the teens celcius with 20 degrees (68f) forcast for midweek.

mrs has actually taken a book to sit in the sunshine just inside the polytunnel this morning,  its a whole different world in there , salad leaves growing , bumble bees buzzin on the borage flowers, some of the overwintered salad leaves about to burst into flower
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on April 02, 2020, 04:43:38 PM
Haven't decided which alternative to expensive "Yeti" coolers, yet.

A couple weeks ago I saw a Coleman ice chest priced about $35 that claimed "holds ice for 5 days."  Same claim as Yeti brand but about 10% of the price range.  I think it was at Walmart. 


Quote
Got a "Lovable Loo" yesterday! No digging holes every day.  Jbee 


What's a "Lovable Loo"?   Is there a link? 
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on April 02, 2020, 08:55:28 PM
Sorry, I left you hanging there. It is a Luggable Loo by Reliance. I picked up just the lid part for just over $12 at Sportsman's Warehouse. I have an old laundry detergent bucket that is shorter and a better healthier squat to attach it to, as soon as I get the kitchen compost out of it. Simple peatmoss stored in the bucket in a kitchen garbage bag and then set aside at camp. One scooper, other kitchen bags. It all should store in the bucket during transport in the SUV, I used a peatmoss bucket when I first moved into my unfinished house twenty years ago. It is pretty much odor free, much better than straw, not expensive, like the stuff that they sell. I may add some kobashi meal to ferment and speed the composting process, this time.

https://relianceoutdoors.com/products/sanitation/96.html

It appears to be pretty good quality. The plastic seems durable. I read that some knockoffs will crack break, hinge will go bad, or break. This hinge leaves the lid up. I suppose that you probably won't want an updated detailed report after I give it a test and run it a few times. :D

The really good thick coolers, like Yeti will claim like 10 days. There are youtube videos comparing them for retaining ice over time. There is a good sized one (64 cans of BEER w/ ice) on sale now at $183. About $70 less than the competition and lots less than a Yeti. The idea for me is to have the food last a week in there and then go into town to restock. Where I'm going, it is more than an hours hard drive to the stores round trip, putting on clothes and ruining the aesthetic of bugging out to solitude.

The things weigh 35 or 40 pounds empty. It would probably stay safe, never leaving the SUV when full. Some claim to be bear proof. I wonder if that means that a bear couldn't lift it either.

Coleman has a hefty one, but not at $34. I looked it over and it doesn't look as insulated. I've seen no tests done.

Some advertise as good stepping stools with treads on top and good seats. Who wants someone sitting on the cooler, between me and the food, unless that is to guard the food, so it will last a week, or protect the last cold BEER on Sunday night. ;D
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on April 02, 2020, 11:28:20 PM
I've taken up wearing a mask when shopping. Now, I'm wearing even more coverings in public. The "experts" and politicians and hospital staff interpreting what they say poorly, told us not to. At DF's work, they were actually ordered to stop wearing masks period. When I used to teach kids school. I would tell them, "Always, always, always question authority." I got some trouble from that.

That fact is that the studies tell us that the particles are small enough to get through, except N-95's a customized mask. The stupid then told us that mask don't work. Obviously, they don't 100%, but they certainly cut down the odds considerably. Dumb F...s in charge couldn't figure that out.

Have you ever burp in one of those things? You have to enjoy your last meal forever, while standing in lines at tape marks six feet apart. Then ya can't touch the mask, until you wash your hands. It's a trap.

Here's something about them telling us not to wear the hassles. "Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti Wednesday urged all residents to use nonmedical-grade masks or facial coverings while in public. The advice came as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is reconsidering its advisory that people should not wear masks — advice that was aimed at preventing a run on personal protective equipment, which is already in short supply."
 So, we risk lives and spread it even more by not wearing the masks to save the masks. We are lied to for weeks to save the mask supply.

"Managers of the Strategic National Stockpile warn emergency supplies of medical equipment, including life-saving ventilators, are all but exhausted."

Then, "The Intercept reports that even as the pandemic reached U.S. soil and began to spread, the Trump administration allowed a steady flow of ventilators and personal protective equipment supplies to be sent abroad, with a shipment as recently as March 17.
Meanwhile, all but the sickest patients and the wealthiest Americans continue to struggle to learn their COVID-19 status. One New Jersey lab, Quest Diagnostics, reported a backlog of about 160,000 COVID-19 tests, delaying some results by as much as 10 days."

Bumbling zealot idiots out to save us from Big Government, gutted the agency that was supposed to think this thing out in advance, without even consulting the experts to find out that pandemic was inevitable.

Then this BOZO in Georgia, who probably understands every detail on the effects on the economy and his and his cronies stock portfolios and raided the treasury last week, "In Georgia, where at least 154 people have died of COVID-19, Republican Governor Brian Kemp on Wednesday told residents to prepare for a shelter-in-place order beginning on Friday. Governor Kemp’s announcement came weeks after medical professionals warned coronavirus infections would explode across Georgia without strict social distancing measures.

    Gov. Brian Kemp: “What we’ve been telling people, from directives from the CDC, for weeks now, that if you start feeling bad, stay home. Those individuals could have been infecting people before they ever felt bad. But we didn’t know that until the last 24 hours. And as Dr. Toomey told me, she goes, 'This is a game changer.'”

In fact, a report in The New England Journal of Medicine published in late January warned asymptomatic people can spread the coronavirus, and the finding has informed public policy worldwide for weeks." We all knew that.

I'm wearing a mask and staying home and looking to go camping. I use only the right hand to touch the possible contaminated surfaces, I don't use cash. The left hand stays clean, so it can dig into the packet of alcohol wipes after getting the key out of my pocket for the car.

DF demands that we take our shoes off outside the house. She strips down completely at the back door and throws her clothing from work into a dirty bag before entering the house...not so bad at that.

We should probably all burn our clothing, and shower a whole lot...maybe...one of the BOZOS might latch on to that and order....
Jbee





 
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: John P on April 02, 2020, 11:54:57 PM
"I would tell them, "Always, always, always question authority." I got some trouble from that."

It sounds like one of those "Sound of one hand clapping" Zen exercises. Is that a koan?

I mean, if you tell the kids that, and they sit there silently, you've obviously failed. But if they protest, then they're being obedient and you've also failed. Only a truly enlightened person can resolve this.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on April 02, 2020, 11:59:59 PM
I got more trouble from the conservative authorities, even though the state requirements are to teach the kids to think for themselves.

At the beginning of the year, I'd close the doors of my classroom, gather the kids in close, and tell them that, like it was a big secret, just between us. There was always some smartass that would come up with "refuse authority" instead of "question authority." Most got it respectfully.

It certainly caused me trouble and I would do it again.

I'd use these examples in class. There are too many foolish followers that don't know how to use intellectual thought processes. It was the reason that Jefferson promoted the public school system so much. He feared the ignorant hysterical masses in a democracy. The education system is being exploited now, to create good workers to make more money and followers doing what they are told to do by those in power.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: BlueTrain on April 03, 2020, 01:06:59 AM
I still will accept cash, if it's been laundered.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on April 03, 2020, 04:23:26 AM
"Always, always, always question authority." I got some trouble from that.

Yes.  I don't buy this whole mass hysteria that "authority" has fear mongered everyone into panic mode.   We all survived H1N1, Asian flu, SARS, Bird flu, and ordinary flu.  Most people who get Covid-19 don't get serious symptoms.  The "official" death count is greatly exaggerated.  I don't trust that they tell us.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: John P on April 03, 2020, 04:47:47 AM
Bob, here are pictures and a video from New York. You can believe it's serious or not.

https://nypost.com/2020/03/31/nyc-hospital-resumes-use-of-forklift-to-move-bodies-amid-coronavirus/
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on April 03, 2020, 10:58:17 AM
average month in uk is about 40k deaths from all causes,  makes our 2k from the virus not seem too bad.  none of this years monthly all cause totals arnt published yet.

the typical mask seen on the streets is known in the trade as a rock and boulder mask ...ie small dust will go through, i seriously doubt theyle slow a virus down... what they will stop is explosive ejection of droplets from the mouth... so you can breath it all back in again on the next breath.   personally i have great difficulty in getting any sort of a seal across the cheeks so usually end up with moist wet air directed at my glasses which then steam up so i can see nothing..... i always use a full face shield in the workshop rather than goggles for the same reason.  with a strimmer its a fine mesh one.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Davie on April 03, 2020, 05:22:20 PM
This virus kills! My neighbour is a doctor and he's told me that it needs to be taken seriously. Children of 13 don't normally die from flu, nor do medical staff. In the UK we've lost at least four. In fact the death toll is probably under estimated as numbers will have died from apparent other causes, say in care homes etc.

I cannot see any reason for Governments to splash out billions of pounds and  tell us to socially distance ourselves, self isolate for no reason and close public facilities for no reason. Why would they do that?

I say again, this virus kills and needs to be taken seriously. We need to discount some of the rubbish conspiracy theories and listen to what science is telling us, and by and large they are singing from the same hymn sheet.

If someone says the figures are being exaggerated produce the figures and the evidence. The figures I'm looking at are based on good academic sources.  If there is such an exaggeration why are the New York Health service about to be overwhelmed, as is happening in Spain and Italy. ... or is all this happening on a film set!

Davie  8)
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: BlueTrain on April 03, 2020, 07:17:59 PM
You mean like the moon landing?
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on April 03, 2020, 08:18:57 PM
Bob, here are pictures and a video from New York. You can believe it's serious or not.

https://nypost.com/2020/03/31/nyc-hospital-resumes-use-of-forklift-to-move-bodies-amid-coronavirus/

Out of 350,000,000 people, more than 12,000 people per day die in the US.  That's around 500 in New York City, many in that hospital.   That fork lift to move bodies is NOT a new thing for covid-19.  That's their regular long standing method of moving heavy dead bodies out of their hospital.  That story you posted asserting its something horrific because of Covid-19 is FAKE NEWS. 

We need to be realistic and not listen to fear mongering and fake news.   

Dr. Smith, the founder of the **Smith Center for Infectious Diseases in New Jersey** says that they have had 100% effective treatment with hydroxychloroquine.  Patients get mild flu like symptoms and then you're cured.  Nobody dies.  Nobody need a hospital.  Total "Game Changer," he said.   He also said that previous severe cases they saw were ALL diabetic of pre-diabetic.  The child were very high pre-diabetic.  That last could be new research.

Now that a safe and effective treatment has been identified, and demonstrated, its time to change the game.  Treat the illness, and don't simply wave hands until they need hospitals and respirators. What is killing people is foot dragging by the medical industry waiting to make big money on the disease. 

And, its time we all went back to work.  The game has changed.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on April 03, 2020, 08:26:06 PM
Got a friend in ICU for the last ten days. Nobody knows if she'll make it. Got another at home, who can't taste anything. Just a mild fever. It varies.

Most are making out okay. Most would survive as just another illness. Millions would be hospitalized. Without mitigation a couple of million would die in misery with no loved ones around. Most would contract it, because it is so contagious and sneaky.

It is not a hoax. It is about knowing that millions suffer and many of those dying. Loved ones, friends, wonderful people dying. I don't think that thinning the herd is about this. I can't say that I don't care about the affected, even though I'll never see them, I know what they and their families would go through. I don't want that.

Is the money worth that? Is the economic hardship worth that? I can only speak to myself. Dreams can be rebuilt, reworked, changed. Lives cannot. I can always take a naked walk and know where I'm at and know that I'm not lost. These fears are just disruptions to my ego, as discomforting and fearful as they may seem.
Jbee

Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on April 03, 2020, 08:32:49 PM
If someone says the figures are being exaggerated produce the figures and the evidence. The figures I'm looking at are based on good academic sources.  If there is such an exaggeration why are the New York Health service about to be overwhelmed, as is happening in Spain and Italy. ... or is all this happening on a film set! Davie  8)

Italy admitted that only 12% of their reported Covid-19 deaths actually died of Covid-19.  The admission was by the technical advisor of their Minister of Health after reviewing all the reported deaths.  Another report a few days later said it was only about 1%.

The fear mongers count everyone who dies of anything (cancer, heart attack, car crash, etc.) and also has a positive test for Covid-19.   That is dishonest FAKE NEWS and FEAR MONGERING by government and the Media.  That's all the bullshit we get from media and government in the US too.  If it weren't for Fake News, there wouldn't be any new at all sometimes. 

And, the Media has all attacked President Trump for suggesting that hydroxychloroquine was a possible treatment.  They don't want a cure, they want a disaster.  Media is like that.  Hurst once sent a team to start a war in South America to sell more newspapers. 

Its time for the doctors and politicians to treat the sick with the known cure, stop grandstanding for Fake News cameras,  and let us get back to work. 
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on April 03, 2020, 08:38:29 PM
Got a friend in ICU for the last ten days. Nobody knows if she'll make it. Got another at home, who can't taste anything. Just a mild fever. It varies. Jbee

Even people in ICU on ventilators who were "hopeless," and given last rites, have been saved by an IV with hydroxychloroquine.  Trouble is most doctors aren't using it, and many people are dying. 

All my life I've been told "there is no effective treatment for a virus."   I'm sure most doctors were taught that in med schools.  Your friend is being treated by a medical team that believes that old dogma, and it was probably true until very recently.   

The game has now changed.  Thousands of patients are being saved by hydroxychloroquine.  Many doctors report 100% cure with only mild symptoms.  No hospital.  No deaths. 

CDC, FDA, and many doctors are holding out for a patent medication that big pharma corps can charge huge prices for.   NO, the money isn't worth watching people die while they refuse to treat people with a cheap generic cure.

I'm sorry about your friend.   Someone needs to get those doctors to learn a new treatment.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: BlueTrain on April 03, 2020, 08:44:59 PM
So, how's your foot?
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on April 03, 2020, 09:08:48 PM
It is sensationalism and misdirected, as you say, Bob. The skate rink in Italy and the grocery store in France to store bodies are not. People are getting very sick and dying in alarming numbers. That's not fake.

The hydroxychloroquine appears to be working on people with mild symptoms and not the seriously ill, from what I read. The deaths have to do with lung issues and predisposed immune issues, which is obvious, respirators are needed and the symptoms are lung issues. The diabetes, and pre-diabtes, just doesn't make sense with that. They are not directly related and they say the guy stated "ALL." That makes your source, to me, suspicious.

I'd like to know that your source is good. That would be very important good news. What is the source? Could it be that Smith just wants to draw attention to himself? Is it just drug companies looking for profit, when Wall Street is tanking and the Fed is bankrupting the value of a dollar? Would those two entities allow this to happen? Is it the banksters crafting and getting off on another profit and pilfer like 2008? Is it really the Chinese out to destabilize world markets and dominate, by weakening their biggest trading partner?

Could it be that a news media person, or team is misinterpreting what the guy said? They are notorious for that. A study comes out with a link from catsup to cancer in a small study of rats as suggestive AND THEN the headlines call out that "Catsup causes cancer!" Fake news or sh..ty reporting? Just selling papers?

Even if the stuff worked, it isn't out there yet for everybody and we'd have to produce quite a lot, before getting back to work. That could take weeks to months to produce. The game has changed, but not for the best. As the rehab people used to love to say, denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Jbee

 
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on April 03, 2020, 09:37:05 PM
Bob, "Thousands of patients are being saved by hydrocortisone.  Many doctors report 100% cure with only mild symptoms.  No hospital.  No deaths."

The people who had a positive reaction were not very sick. They were not in the hospital, and not likely to die. They were not saved by it. There were positive results. Nobody got off of their death bed, with an injection, or IV. So, what you wrote here is true, but misleading. It hasn't been working for serious cases, and it is anecdotal.

They were not in the hospitals dying with complications. The stuff gets people who have predisposed, or lack of health and they die of that, yes. It is often more a combo thing. Old and frail, lung issues, immune system glitches, it is the hammer in the coffin. I don't know about the stats that you present, but people are dying from it at alarming rates. 16% hospitalized is very high. My friend has been sick off and on, she walked slow shifting much like you, but she wasn't hospitalized, or dead. This stuff just put her over the edge. The old and sick in the herd get left behind, but we're getting hit by thousands of lions all at once, not just the usual pack. We get back to being around each other, most of us will get sick and the thousands of lions will have a big feast.

There is research into hydroxychloroquine potential. It may provide clues, or something that works very well. But for now, the results are being misinterpreted.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Davie on April 04, 2020, 12:22:04 AM
No wonder the USA has the highest infection rate in the world with some of the attitudes being displayed here. This virus is serious, what part of that don't you understand. We need to treat it seriously. The health system would love a cure and there are trials here going on but nothing is yet proven. I'll believe science rather that false news and rubbish.

When children and young people are suffering it really is bad news. I say again my doctor friend treats is seriously and therefore so should I. In the UK the daily press conferences are fronted by scientists and quite frankly I'd rather believe them and amatures who think they know better. Sure the virus kills those with underlyig health issues, but it kills the formerly fit and well too, including now several of our wonderful NHS staff. That's the wonderful National Health Service

Davie  8)
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on April 04, 2020, 11:20:26 AM
couple of days ago the media and the politicians and scientists at the daily downing street briefing  were getting all excited at the upturn in the motor vehicle use graph... all condemning the general public for irresponsible use of private cars and breaking self isolation.    nobody pointed out the graph was all motor vehicles including commercials,  or that it was the end of the month, when people get paid so they can go back to the supermarkets to restock, or that the supermarkets are well aware this happens so would be stocking in preparation..... .   
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on April 04, 2020, 02:57:12 PM
I'd like to know that your source is good. That would be very important good news. What is the source? Could it be that Smith just wants to draw attention to himself?   Jbee

These days, Jbee, people do need to be suspicious of all the Fake News.   But the **Smith Center for Infectious Diseases in New Jersey** is the real deal.  I was suspicious at first too, but I did some research.  It been there for years and is a very reliable source about infectious diseases.  More reliable than political motivated government agencies.   

https://www.smithcenternj.org/   

Quote
The people who had a positive reaction were not very sick. They were not in the hospital, and not likely to die. They were not saved by it. There were positive results. Nobody got off of their death bed, with an injection, or IV.

Yes, people have gotten up off their death bead after IV with hydroxychloroquine.   There was a widely reported news story about a guy in Florida who had said goodbye to his family after doctors told him he had no hope.  Then another doctor started the Hydroxychloroquine IV and in a few hours he was up and celebrating his recovery. 

From the NY Post and numerous other news sources, "March 22: "A Florida man diagnosed with coronavirus claims he was saved from certain death by an anti-malaria drug touted as a possible treatment by President Trump."   "After more than a week, doctors told him there was nothing more they could do and, on Friday evening, Giardinieri said goodbye to his wife and three children. I was at the point where I was barely able to speak and breathing was very challenging,” Giardinieri said. “I really thought my end was there.”

First link on my search: https://nypost.com/2020/03/22/florida-man-with-coronavirus-says-drug-touted-by-trump-saved-his-life/

Quote
They were not in the hospitals dying with complications. The stuff gets people who have predisposed, or lack of health and they die of that, yes. It is often more a combo thing. Old and frail, lung issues, immune system glitches, it is the hammer in the coffin. I don't know about the stats that you present, but people are dying from it at alarming rates. 16% hospitalized is very high 

I'm sorry about your friend.  The standard medical training for viruses says "there is nothing we can do."  Many people with underlying medical problems have died of it, but your friend may not have died if the doctors had given her hydroxychloroquine.  This is a real game changer.   And many doctors who treat with the hydroxychloroquine do report 100% recovery.  That doesn't save someone who is otherwise dying of cancer or heart failure, etc.  More than 12,000 people per day die in the USA, but they do not have to die from Covid-19. 
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: John P on April 04, 2020, 05:46:00 PM
Davie, I think you're absolutely right. Maybe it's the pioneer mentality, where people think they're the ones who have to fight off the bears, so they're not going to accept instructions from any "expert" on how to do it the right way. Or if they take any advice at all, they won't trust it unless it comes from some source they choose themselves, the more unorthodox the better.

Hence fad diets, lunatic religions, vaccination-will-make-your-children-autistic, conspiracies everywhere.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on April 04, 2020, 10:24:15 PM
Yea, Bob, Let's hope.

The good news is that they are testing it...or planning to test it. ;)
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Karla on April 14, 2020, 09:48:30 AM
We've been expecting a pandemic for quite a few years now and actually have been regularly stockpiling since 2009. Not just for a pandemic though. I recognised that as society becomes more efficient it also reduces redundancy and therefore makes it less robust to extreme events until you live in a just-in-time society with no spare capacity. The chances of any extreme event happening is quite low on a monthly basis, but when seen over the course of a lifetime the chances of at least one of them happening is actually very high. I am not just talking about pandemics (influenza was the most likely form it would be take) but extreme weather from climate change, currency collapse (we narrowly avoided this in the UK in 2008), political instability (e.g. Brexit and the rise of fascism), fuel shortages (happened in the noughties and '70s) etc. It doesn't have to be an extreme event that last months, but weeks or even just days and you benefit from being prepared. Not to mention that the long term trend is the exponential depletion of the Earth's finite resources.

Sometimes we've had to run down the stockpile when we move. We started building it up again anyway in preparation for Brexit and then Covid19 made an appearance and we accelerated it. It meant that we could avoid the shops when everyone else was panic buying. You can't panic buy a stock pile as you will forget so many things. You need to regularly use it to know how quickly each item depletes. It also requires developing other skills, like figuring out recipes that can use the stockpile and how to maintain variety. We also grow a lot of our own fruit and veg and have been using up as much space as we can to do this. But this is only the second season in this house and it takes a while to prepare the grounds. I took last week off work to do lots of gardening. I've done it before in a previous house using absolutely every since spare space to grow stuff and it's amazing how much produce you can get if you're prepared to put the work in.

I have a garden sunbed in the sunniest part of the back garden to do my sunbathing so I can get my vitamin D . I go out in a bikini because I can be seen from the back windows of the neighbours but I am contemplating doing it naked anyway. I can't block the view of the neighbours though without blocking the sun. It would be amazing if I could do the gardening naked though. Proper free range naturism is out the question at the moment though due to the lockdown.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on April 14, 2020, 10:13:13 AM
were rural and ive always stockpiled to a limited extent through the winter.... on the odd occasions we get snow im happy to be able to stay off the roads for a week or so if need be.... probably only a once in 20 year event.   we grow a lot so always have veg and fruit in the freezer, weve ditched the chest freezer and now use 2 tall uprights... run out of space in late autumn but now in early spring could probably turn one off till the beans are ready... but having just had easter weekend the supermarkets have legs of lamb and cuts of beef at good prices so may stock up a few roasts.  lamb legs in particular is half the price it was a couple of months ago.
not being able to go walking and with the neighbours of work at home during the working week they may well get to see more than normal if this cold wind ever stops.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: BlueTrain on April 14, 2020, 11:42:21 AM
When I was little in the 1950s, some people maintained large gardens. As the years went by, though, they became smaller and smaller, possibly because the people got older and older. Of course, not everyone has the space for a garden and a small vegetable garden just isn't worth the trouble. We're a little spoiled now, though, in that many vegetables are available year-round, which didn't use to be the case. I also think that the quality of some items is much better than back then.

I've mentioned this before but emergencies of one sort or another usually happen often enough, if not regularly, so that you probably already know what you really need to be prepared for. It varies from place to place, naturally, but they're generally all weather related. Hurricanes, tornados, heavy snows and windstorms, floods, fallen trees, power outages and the like. Those things are fairly localized and never affect everyone equally, meaning you really won't all be in the same boat. Some people build on high ground, some have generators and so on. The current coronavirus is unusual in that it seems to be worldwide in scope. But things that are more personal can be more serious. Things like job loss and long-term illness can be much more difficult to recover from.

I don't worry about the collapse of civilization. I suppose it could happen; it just never has. There are other serious things that only government can really do anything about but the current US administration is not disposed to do anything like that or, for that matter, anything at all. These are also things that have happened before, too, although at the moment, all I can think of is long term drought. Nobody thinks in terms of lean years and fat years, I guess.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on April 14, 2020, 06:13:54 PM
Shoes can carry coronavirus.    Wash your shoes.    (Or don't wear shoes and wash your feet)

https://footwearnews.com/2020/focus/news/shoes-can-carry-coronavirus-cdc-1202965214/

Chloroquine is safe and effective prophylactic to stop the spread of coronavirus, and treatment for the disease.  From National Institute of Health, 2005.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1232869/?fbclid=IwAR0MdIBDRrD0_QeFSl_jOEntEnrz-Ntf8lNyjwbd0ER4ByovQJlbKUlG6ds
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Davie on April 15, 2020, 12:20:16 AM
Of course is can be carried on shoes, as well as clothes and most other surfaces.

As for Chloroquine  Not proven as a treatment or preventative. Neither has it been subject of peer review. Treat any claims with caution. There is only anecdotal reports it has some benefits. It may eventually be proven to be effective but the evidence is lacking at present. If it was effective it would be in universal use now but it isn't. See:

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/doctor-note-chloroquine-drugs-treat-coronavirus-200326055608185.html

https://fullfact.org/online/chloroquine-coronavirus/

https://www.businessinsider.com/malaria-pill-chloroquine-tested-as-coronavirus-treatment-2020-3?r=US&IR=T

The link above relates to SARs a difernt virus and was published in 2005, hardly up to date research!

Davie
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on April 15, 2020, 10:16:25 AM
personally i think all this hand washing and disinfecting is a waste of time.... to maintain a reasonable quality of life ive got to go to supermarket once a week... soon as i go through the door im breathing in what someone else has breathed out , 2m distance wont stop anything and nor will a rock and boulder mask.
my assumption is were all going to be infected sooner or later,   the government admits this , all their measures are aimed at slowing the new infections to a rate the nhs can deal with,  not reducing the total over time.

my focus is on healthy lifestyle to reduce symptoms,   build the immune system by well tried methods,   sunshine for vit d,   fresh wholesome food, lucky ive got a poly tunnel were eating fresh salad leaves and upped the supermarket fruit intake,   early to bed for plenty of sleep,  im taking a vit b complex supplement,   and weve tuned off the wifi, use the phones on speaker so theyre not held close to the head...ok were getting a bit less mainstream now.
but every litle helps and its all easy to do.

the mega dose vit b is supposed to boost imune system but also reputed to help cracked heals and migraines both of which i get, only been on it a few weeks but heels arnt getting worse and not had a maigraine since i started... but early days.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: BlueTrain on April 15, 2020, 12:51:03 PM
All my assumptions are otherwise.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on April 15, 2020, 04:37:40 PM
As for Chloroquine  Not proven as a treatment or preventative. Neither has it been subject of peer review. Treat any claims with caution.
Davie

My above linked research report by the US Center for Disease Control, and published by the National Institute for Health is highly credible peer reviewed sources, about as good as it gets in the US.  They summarized chloroquine as an inexpensive, relatively safe, and effective for prophylactic (prevention) and cure of coronavirus.  They said that chloroquine could be used to stop the spread, and cure coronavirus.

This is not new science.  Coming out this year and claiming their own research is "anecdotal" is lying to the people while thousands die.  They are putting political motivation ahead of their own science and causing the deaths of many thousand.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Peter S on April 15, 2020, 04:41:28 PM
I tend to agree with ric on this one (though I haven't got a polytunnel and I don't do vitamin supplements). We do all the social distancing and minimal going out - the sad thing (for me) is that where I'd really like to go, hiking the countryside on my (naked) own, would keep me social distanced from everyone far better than a walk in the park, but the local police are very hot on stopping traffic and deciding whether one's journey is necessary! All this lovely weather going to waste.

In the absence of a covid vaccine or cure we have to work on the inevitability of everyone getting it (potentially, at least) so trying to keep contagion to a level the health system can cope with is the best that can be done. In the meantime, all we can do is reflect on a recently-overheard comment: "Don't know what all the fuss is about with this covid 19 - we survived covids 1 to 18 all right, didn't we?"
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on April 15, 2020, 08:21:34 PM
The local hospitals are treating it with zinc. It is a desperate shot in the dark, however.

My friend got off of the respirator, so we thanked God for that.

We are building immunity with colloidal sliver, or maybe not, since no real tests or many tests have been done on it. Sort of, "couldn't hurt." It was supposed to have effect on another corona.

We are eating probiotic supplements and vitamins, especially vitamin c. Staying home, the live living food is getting prepared more often. People seem to be grabbing up the non-perishables, but there is good supply of fresh veggies. The usual. It is difficult to keep the raw food if supply was interrupted. Avoiding the trips to the store, as it is such a pain in the butt, is cause for canned stuff. Much of the raw diet can be hoarded by buying bulk like beans and nuts, great protein.

I got my big canvas bell tent and I'm setting up for a hermitage to the hills, so I'm starting to store enough to eat out there. I'm also due for a fast, like yesterday. Got a solar charger for my laptop. Next, new tires and that week long ice cooler. We have been out hiking and camping so much, progress has been slowed. Spring weather has been coming in here and there.

The piles of people, where there usually are not, is such a problem that I found a wilderness to hike and some private land last weekend. Racking up lots of trip reports and very busy setting the memories down in print, before they disappear. I've got us set for a more remote area later this week.
Jbee
 
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jmf on May 10, 2020, 09:20:23 PM
This time of confinement has allowed me to completely update my blog. A month of work at the rate of several hours in front of the computer every day.
www.randonnues.fr
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: nuduke on May 10, 2020, 10:51:29 PM
Jmf
I have visited your site www.randonnues.fr on many occasions via links from this forum or directly but this evening I got the following message:
This site is not secure
This might mean that someone’s trying to trick you or steal any information that you send to the server. You should close this site immediately.
Go to your Start page
Details
The hostname in the website’s security certificate differs from the website you are trying to visit.
Error Code: DLG_FLAGS_SEC_CERT_CN_INVALID

I'm not sure why this should be but it does restrict my ability to see your wonderful blogs.  Can you offer any assistance as to how to avoid this block?
John
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on May 11, 2020, 01:49:31 AM
I had no problems, Nuduke.

JMF, fantastic job. Nice format and of course the quality of the photos.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: John P on May 11, 2020, 02:01:28 AM
No problems here either. Must be something to do with Brexit.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Peter S on May 11, 2020, 07:53:16 AM
Nuduke, has your anti-virus updated recently, looks like their sort of protective message. Or your browser? They’re building in more of such protection and site checking. Possibly your ISP - again, they’re building in such “safeguards” to curry favour with governments. Is there no indication on the message as to who might be generating it?
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on May 11, 2020, 05:14:50 PM
I was given a short message that this site was not secure for many months. I ignored it. It went away. I didn't know if it was governments, cookie control, or what.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jmf on May 12, 2020, 09:20:54 AM
Can you offer any assistance as to how to avoid this block?
John

I think this problem is solved. I have activated an ssl certificate and so everything should be back to normal.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: nuduke on May 16, 2020, 07:24:52 PM

Yes, JMF
All good now.   :D
SSL security certificate essential in these days of enhanced security.
John
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on November 04, 2020, 04:07:43 AM
Well, it's back, new mutated face, too. We're hearing about lockdowns  in Europe and not hearing as much out of Europe here on the forum the last few days.

May the few dark days of winter be the ones that are during lockdown, so that you can enjoy the sun.

Cases are surging over here, mask are out, cases surge more, the pandemic is a catastrophe here, except for the very rich. It is stopping the new sweat and packing the wilderness, forest, etc.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on November 04, 2020, 08:54:07 AM
Lock down has been announced from Thursday till first week in December. Not as strict as last time, unlimited outdoor time allowed and schools still open.
We're still allowed to go to work , which as I'm self employed means pretty much whatever and where ever.   Last time they snuck in a bit about mustnt sleep overnight away from home .not seen that mentioned this time.
Daughter lives 3 hours away....not allowed to go for a social visit , but as yet I can't see anything preventing me from going to mow the lawn , or clean the windows etc provided I can show an invoice for the work.....or even go to quote for a project..... It's a case of read the rules and see how to work them.
Same with the stuff we sell on eBay, even if the buyer can't travel to collect we can still deliver add in that there's no restriction on which supermarket we shop at  there's really not to stop us doing what we want to do provided we don't try and socialise with other households.

As too the actual measures ....introducing a lockdown surly is an admission that masks haven't worked.
There's a growing feeling we're all being conned.   Scientists are producing projections bassed on guesswork and false statistics .   The latest deaths projection was based on past deaths from any cause within 60 days of a positive test.   Growing realisation that the tests are meaningless....positive test is actually less than a ten percent chance that you've actually got an infective dose of covid.......even the new fast tests can't distinguish between a current infection and antibodies from an infection months ago.
Hospitals are running at less occupancy than in a normal autumn .
Over 90% of covid deaths have been in the 70 plus age group....we're trashing the small businesses to prolong the lives of a sector that's going to die anyway within the near future.
Flu deaths seem to have dissapeered....they're all being listed as covid
Most other hospital treatments have stopped....more will die of cancer, heart disease etc cos they can't get anything done.
Even WHO say lockdowns cause more deaths than they  save .

In short it's all bollocks
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Safebare on November 04, 2020, 07:31:02 PM
Wow, Ric, just wow.
I am pleased to hear that the compromises you are making for the virus are not overly burdensome. it is difficult for all of us.
I hope we can agree to disagree with most of the details you presented. You did get one thing right though. Masks don't work, they must be worn.
Safe safe and bare as much as you reasonably can. And try not to be a Petri dish.
~Safebare
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on November 04, 2020, 09:14:50 PM
Yes, ditto with Safebare.

Mask worn properly have never been claimed to work, they do however reduce the odds of contracting the stuff significantly. You don't want to be sick with this stuff, as my first hand advice. I take steps to mitigate and avoid coming down with it. It isn't just about deaths. It can get you very very long lasting sick in spite of good health.

Wash your hands intelligently, it helps keep all of the flu away that is picked up on public surfaces. Stay healthy.

With a mask, odds are very strong that you won't get it. Yes, the stats are off of the wall.

Glad that the lockdown is less severe. Now, if the weather cooperates....
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on November 05, 2020, 10:48:47 AM
I guess I'm lucky that I don't have to go into buildings with other people....except the once a week trip to supermarket. Apart from at home with the wife,who works from home and has only been to supermarket twice since March.,.when grandkids birthday cards needed .... I don't have to get close to the odd person I do see.
We're intelligent people , we can use the internet.  We make our own informed decisions about where we go and what precautions we take.
Our only real exceptions to above have been occasional visits to daughter 3hours away...they both work from home so have minimal close contacts.   And since Sept collecting grandkids from school twice a week.

But throughout our biggest risk has-been our daughter in law....she's a primary school teacher.....been teaching nhs workers kids right through from march till August. When her own we're at home with other grandma moved in......chances are they've all had it and not noticed

With lockdown starting again today we'll be doing today's school run....other grandma is moving in this evening so we'll be off duty for the month😊

We are in southwest where current cases are minimal.....no random testing being done so no false positives or asympomatics to be counted as cases.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: nuduke on November 07, 2020, 06:50:36 PM
Ric,
I have just erased a long (and slightly patronising! ;) ) comment on your post of Nov 4th in which I tried to say: try and be as careful as you should, dear friend, and recognise that, of all the things we can do about the virus, none can eliminate it but all indisputably contribute to reduction of spread, so are worth our attention.  I think that's roughly what Safebare and Jbee said and your later post of 5th Nov indicates that you probably are doing your bit, but, I would say to anyone that we all need to try hard to keep the plague from mixing in the environment and population, because that's all we can do at the moment. 
However efficient or not those precautions may seem to be to some people, a temporary suspension of a bit of our usual liberty and adopting a few tedious practices like masks and hand washing, seems to me to be a reasonable price to pay to get those liberties back soonest.   
John
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on November 08, 2020, 09:45:26 AM
It's difficult to know what to believe at the moment

Yesterday I found a report on metro .co.uk  on research done by imperial college on behalf of transport for London.  They've been sampling air on underground trains and at stations and swabbing surfaces to assess the level of covid virus and risk of infection in using public transport in London......published results were they couldn't find any covid virus.   



Latest news in daily mail this morning ......hancock has just announced  free vitamin d tablets to elderly and vulnerable.....after locking us in out the sun all summer and denying any link to fit d deficiency



Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Peter S on November 08, 2020, 10:49:51 AM
The publicity and communication surrounding COVID has been the most annoying and confusing aspect of the past 8-10 months for me. Half-understood information is presented as hard fact, only to be later edited or heavily amended as new data becomes available. Data is variously interpreted so that those of us who are exhorted to trust the experts are left tossing a coin to decide which expert to trust. News items come and tell us something, and are never seen again leaving us to wonder if we ever read it or if it’s been debunked. The scientists we are supposed to follow, trust and believe, publish early findings from “studies”, which are then mashed up by uncomprehending journalists, when the real reason for publishing has been to get publicity to encourage more funding. In the absence of a cure or vaccine all anyone can do is social distance, wash hands and wear a mask - but governments have to be seen to be “doing”, so come up with ever more inventive ways to look busy. All they can hope to do is control us, the population, enough to avoid health services becoming overwhelmed, but after so long many of “us” regard ignoring the rules as a way to stick it to the government and disregard the reason for the rules.

Rant over.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on November 08, 2020, 09:37:45 PM
Good rant. There have been a few studies with their processes presented to us. I don't have to trust authorities, if I can evaluate the studies. I know how long the stuff last at what temps on certain surfaces. I know enough about the efficacy of masks. I know that without masks depending on vent direction in a restaurant that the stuff will generally get certain percentages of the patrons. I know that odds are, unless working in health facilities, or around lots of people, the odds are slim of getting it, and very low of dying and the continuum in-between, but I don't want it again, or any flu.

I know that I miss my friends, dancing, hugs and gatherings. I know that I don't want grandma, or couch potato Joe to suffer, or die. So I disinfect my hands and wear two masks, and roll with the punches. I will continue to strive at my FRN proclivities. Sometimes, it feels that is all that is left that is wholesome and healthy.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: nuduke on November 10, 2020, 12:31:04 AM
I do agree with your rant, Peter S, in 3 respects: First that the media particularly squirt out inaccuracies and popular but erroneous interpretations.  One common banner headline is that eating food X triples or halves your cancer risk.  This is often the media skim of a perfectly good paper that says that eating an amount of food X that would make you sick and you would never normally eat, increases the risk from 0.00001% to 0.00003% i.e. raising the risk from almost non existent to very extremely unlikely! But the reporters just don't read the paper which concludes that the research whilst significant (meaning statistically significant rather than medically significant - because they have to justify their grants) does not represent any meaningful effect.  Second that government always seem to want or be obliged to put a spin on everything which gets debunked later - that's been relatively understandable in the pandemic because we know so little and things keep changing all the time, requiring changes of position by governments.  Third - word of mouth that seems to pass rapidly and accurately from sources that are spouting complete nonsense!  The good and sensible stuff just doesn't seem to disseminate with the same efficiency!


Like Jbee, when there is some new news, I try to find the original paper or statement or whatnot upon which the assertion, opinion or fact is based and usually when you do that, common sense and a sense of proportion prevails.  Some of you will balk at this but I have found the UK government websites to be consistent, mostly clearly expressed and informative for what is the latest or ongoing instruction, recommendation or whatever.  You have to exercise some mental effort to work through all the links and difficult paragraphs though.  I think a significant slice of people give up on this and cry "it's so confusing" or "it's not clear" and make no further effort to understand or act as instructed/recommended.  Those people are a dang nuisance!
As Jbee says:
Quote
I know that I miss my friends, dancing, hugs and gatherings. I know that I don't want grandma, or couch potato Joe to suffer, or die. So I disinfect my hands and wear two masks, and roll with the punches.
  This is the behaviour that is needed - altruistic and compliant.  Sure, protest if you think something is not right but don't protest by squishing into the streets with hundreds of others not wearing masks and infect eachother!  Do like the better protest groups are doing, by being organised, lobbying, using the process of government to get heard and creating protests that make an impact and don't involve illegal gathering to perform inchoate shouting of meaningless slogans into the void.
Quote
In the absence of a cure or vaccine all anyone can do is social distance, wash hands and wear a mask
  Quite so too, Peter!


Quote from: ric
Yesterday I found a report on metro .co.uk  on research done by imperial college on behalf of transport for London.  They've been sampling air on underground trains and at stations and swabbing surfaces to assess the level of covid virus and risk of infection in using public transport in London......published results were they couldn't find any covid virus.
And do you think, ric, that means all the precautions are rubbish?  Might it not mean that the precautions are very effective and keeping CV off surfaces and protecting all those that use the tube?  That's a perfect example of a piece of scientific research that means nothing when plucked out of context by the media.  I'm off to try and find the paper! :)
John






 
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on November 10, 2020, 09:37:47 AM
I normally try to present any article from the media without giving my opinion of it,

Today I'm breaking my own rule, I'm doing this from memory without checking spelling or exact figures.

Yesterday we had the breakthrough of the pfitzer vaccine trials. Headline 90 % percent effective.    Of  43000 participants in the trials   94 tested positive for covid infection.   (No mention of severity of infection or if from the alledged 90% false positive pcr test). Of these 90  %  were in the placebo group hence vaccine is the wonder drug.   
Nobody did the reverse math...not stated how big the placebo group were but normal practice is for half the trial....hence out of approx 21500 people regularly tested for covid infection only 86 tested positive..of those 86 it's likely that (going by other published data) 90 odd percent showed no actual symptoms. Leaving 9 that actually showed symptoms    .    Or alternatively 90 percent were false positives leaving 9 infections that only one of showed any symptoms.....So for maybe 9 people  or worse case only 1   showing symptoms out of a group of 21k were all being encouraged to take a rushed poorly tested vaccine,.


You can argue anything with statistics :)




Don't forget this is a vaccine based on new untested principles.    I'll admit family effects of thalidomide maybe skew my personal opinions.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Peter S on November 10, 2020, 05:51:27 PM
I can understand a family history that includes thalidomide would sour anyone’s feelings about pharmaceuticals, but we also need to acknowledge that such cases have an improving effect, as well, tightening up testing procedures etc to ensure such events don’t happen again. Obviously nothing is foolproof (there’s always a better fool somewhere!) but I would say things have got better since those dark days.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on November 11, 2020, 08:38:07 PM
Pfitzer doesn't care if people live or die, just profit for shareholders and folks like CEO. I'd have to read the test results and how it was planned before I'd trust their concoction. This information probably did wonders for their quarterly.

I found rics explanation confusing, but I think I get the jist. Nuduke, too. You two bring it to my mind that 90% of us aren't getting the virus only 10% have contracted it and that is because of precautions. The stuff doesn't survive more than 20 minutes at 130F on places like subway surfaces, according to lab test reports, and my raw memory of what I read a few months back. If none was found, that, to me, sounds like the luck of the draw. If washing, or disinfecting hands, the odds must be pretty slim. There was the spread from an elevator button, so it is very potent, but it just isn't around much. ..now, back to efficacy of masks.

Oh yea, the tests ARE 30% ineffective/inaccurate...or what test are they using that is better?

How did they do the trails? Did they expose these 43,000 people to the virus?
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Davie on November 12, 2020, 11:38:43 AM
The real question is risk and probability. Do I have a greater chance of getting the virus or having an adverse reaction from a vaccine which is approved by an independent body? (Lets avoid conspiracy theories about these robust bodies)  Its a no brainer there will be some who have an adverse reaction, all vaccines affect a few people and no doubt the media will highlight these but not explain the science and maths of probability.

It is proven that cervical cancer has been reduced since girls started to be vaccinated. It has been proved that measles is growing since the anti vaxxers started following down right misinformation by now thankfully ex Dr Andrew wakefield. There's always risk with medical intervention. My wife had a 1 in 20 statistical of not surviving an operation she had for a head operation. She had two similar operations! The alternative 100% chance of an approaching death. We had to take the risk and I'll queue up for a Covid -19 vaccination. The odds are in my favour and I believe I not only have human rights but also responsibilities to try to reduce and eliminate this virus which is real and which kills people, economies and happiness

Davie  8)
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on November 12, 2020, 09:40:03 PM
I'll decide next year.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Peter S on November 13, 2020, 06:55:25 PM
Quote
Pfitzer doesn't care if people live or die, just profit for shareholders

On a purely practical level, the difference between people living or dying would actually make a hell of a lot of difference to Pfizer's profits, so for pragmatic reasons I'm sure they would prefer people live. Ric mentioned thalidomide - I reckon that for what it cost the pharmaceutical company Chemie Grünenthal they'd have preferred the drug worked properly.

And I for one have never begrudged a business its profits if it's providing something the rest of us need (or even want), just so long as they don't overdo it and hold us to ransom. After all, that's why anyone goes into business. Would you deny a nurse or a doctor their salary because they're supposed to be "paid" with the satisfaction of public service?
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on November 13, 2020, 07:42:38 PM
Peter,
Let me give one example:
Corporate structure law requires the CEO to be beholden to the share holders, their profits. The money is invested for profit. These higher ups, particularly the CEO are now getting bonuses on profit. They are making profit in any way. Their job is to make profit. They are paid the equivalent of the fortunes of kings for this service. The government of the United States is melded with these people and structures, revolving doors, huge lobbying, think tanks, campaign money influences the list goes on, all in a big effective way. A corporate leader is not paid to do nice or moral,things. A corporate leader is paid to make profit and that is the ethic.

I was driving for a limo company. I picked a CEO and Vice at the airport and was a fly on the wall for the half hour ride to the resort where the company was having convention. They both arrived at the same time and decided to share the ride. "Can we have a meeting?" asked the lower snake. "Something important is happening."

"Yes."

"One of our drugs is killing people."

After a moment of thought about this news, the CEO said, "Okay, who do we have in Washington?" No concern for the victims, just the way it looks, protecting the bottom line and the company, using government influence.

It is not about doing good, or not doing bad. It is about profit.

I haven't been in the thick of the secret meetings of the elitist and corporate world, but I certainly had numerous 30 minute conversations with these powerful people and celebrities, or just sat and listened and observed, who get surprisingly candid with the guy driving who doesn't matter.

This example is just one. Fair profit, exorbitant profit, dishonest profit, lies and negligent homicide, all are okay for the people who own this country, if "they don't get caught publicly", there are no consequences and make money for investors.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on November 14, 2020, 09:22:54 AM
My wife and I have spent the best part of a lifetime interested in health.   With a bias towards complementary therapies.   Since the advent of the internet and search engines it's been far easier to cut the crap and get to the actual facts.
The one thing that's come to be glaringly self evident is that research is usually designed to give the results that the company paying for it wants.    All the way from design of the tests through ignoring some of the results to downright misrepresentation of results.
Then large companies with big p.r. and advertising budgets brainwash , public, governments and health professionals.
Things that immediately come to mind include
Rats fed massive quantities of aspirin ,. To prove it  Causes stomach ulcers.....cos paracetamol is far more profitable. No actual evidence that normal doses on humans causes any problems
Rats specially bred for salt sensitivity used to prove salt causes high blood pressure ....the data from trials on humans that suggests no effect is ignored.
The original data on the Mediterranean diet excluded countries that didn't fit the desired results.
The classic butter is bad , margarine is healthy alternative.
The 5 a day fruit and veg target, invented based on no studies whatsoever.
Even prostrate cancer....people's quality of life ruined by surgery with side effects  based on a number from a blood test that actually means nothing .  Vast majority of the elderly with enlarged prostrate die with it not of it.

Virtually all the healthy diet advice we've been given over the last half a century has originated from big business and based on research that's  been designed to sell something.

😊

I'd almost be willing to bet real money that hancock's announcement last week that vitamin d supplements can boost the immune system to help fight covid gets forgotten cos nobody can make billions from it
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on November 14, 2020, 05:29:10 PM

Virtually all the healthy diet advice we've been given over the last half a century has originated from big business and based on research that's  been designed to sell something.

(snip)😊

I'd almost be willing to bet real money that hancock's announcement last week that vitamin d supplements can boost the immune system to help fight covid gets forgotten cos nobody can make billions from it 

That is exactly why they are fighting so hard to prevent covid patients from being cured by Hydroxychloroquine.  They can't make billions from a generic drug that cures covid and acts as a vaccine. 

America's Frontline Doctors talk about real cures.  The big corporation people hate them.   https://www.americasfrontlinedoctors.com/summit2/
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: nuduke on November 14, 2020, 11:20:51 PM
Phew, what a lot of scepticism and cynicism!
When I was a corporate executive and later moved in management consulting circles I was amazed by the levels of cynicism exhibited by some CEOS and directors and senior consultants.  These guys had power and riches (well, relative to me anyway!) and did not stop at manipulative practices and the sort of risk taking on behalf of profit and against the common good that Jbee alludes to in his driver anecdote.
However, my experience the work of these people did was that it tended to foster some good, benefit or positive outcome and I think that that more benign philosophy has propelled the academics and corporations in the search for a cure for Covid.  i.e. they are genuine in the quest to find a cure with the spin off of profit being simply a natural consequence of that.  What I never experienced in my career was a genuine conspiracy to extract profit against the broad public good.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I believe that most ceos' companies' and politicians' motives are for the common good not wholly at the expense of good for the gain of profit.  Things like thalidomide were a mistake but I will perfectly happily recognise that the action to withdraw it might have come after a long period of denial about the evidence (compare Trump's current position!) or not acting until sufficient evidence was available to override their prior findings and trials.  The fact is that a company defending and trying to sell a product that creates an evil will soon be foiled as people won't buy it.  Aha! I hear you say, what about DDT and plastic straws?  Well I don't think the life of those products could have been some sort of conspiracy to blind the world's population to the evil they did because they did huge amount of good for a long time before the adverse effects of them became clear.
I'm not defending greed or megalomania - there are many examples of corporations blindly chasing the growth of profit with insufficient regard for the adverse consequences of their business ethic - take Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Macdonalds and numerous oil companies and clothing companies as examples.  But I disagree to the extent that Jbee, Ric and Bob seem to project the political and corporate worlds as one big, evil exploitative conspiracy. 
John
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on November 15, 2020, 10:04:58 AM
Thursday elon musk took 4 rapid covid tests.... 2 positive 2 negative.    Not been widely reported by mainstream media , but Google it and the reports are out there.
I've seen a report that since he's had several pcr tests but still waiting for results.

Also Google threw up some person I'd never heard of but I assume an actress that tested pos in one nostril and neg in the other
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on November 15, 2020, 08:05:09 PM
What I never experienced in my career was a genuine conspiracy to extract profit against the broad public good.
John

Yes, John, thanks for sharing your experience.  A fundamental flaw in the anti-corporation rhetoric always ignores the unbreakable requirement for businesses to serve their customers in order to make any profits at all, and in order to stay in business. Corporations that succeed in serving customers thrive, while those who "put profits first" are soon dismissed by consumers.  That's the big difference between a free market corporation and a government provided anything.  The free market has to provide more service than their total cost plus profit in order to survive.  Government provided anything has no incentive ever to provide good service or even to provide what is wanted.  That's why we wait an hour or more at MVD for a car license, but we can get "fast food" in a minute. 

It is really government that puts power and greed ahead of public good, and never goes out of business no matter how bad they get.

Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on November 15, 2020, 08:08:47 PM
Thursday elon musk took 4 rapid covid tests.... 2 positive 2 negative.    Not been widely reported by mainstream media , but Google it and the reports are out there.
I've seen a report that since he's had several pcr tests but still waiting for results.

The guy who invented the PCR test has said that the PCR test cannot produce accurate results for Covid.  You can probably google that.  The PCR test just doesn't work like that.  It gets any results that the operator wants to produce.  Its all a fiction.   You would do just as well flipping a coin, and often would get more accurate results.  It is not a surprise that Musk got 2 heads and 2 tails in 4 flips (a.k.a. tests). 
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on November 15, 2020, 09:58:22 PM
"But I disagree to the extent that Jbee, Ric and Bob seem to project the political and corporate worlds as one big, evil exploitative conspiracy.
John"

It isn't a conspiracy, it is out in the open, or business as usual, particularly at the higher levels, lobbying, etc. In the USA and multinational world.

Look at the Pentagon procurement and the military industrial complex. Look at the Iraq war. Look at the way royalty treated peasants back when, or the way people are exploited in the third world. There are people who don't care about people, who accept that this is the way it is, or just don't care about "lesser" people. There are others that feel the need to be top dog in the perceived dog eat dog world. There is greed and dishonesty.

 Of course not everyone in a corporation is evil, but at the top the rules are the rules. I had a very fun personable conversation with a higher up CEO and leader of the national organization of timber industry. I told him of my cousin who was creating wood substitute from left over straw in the feilds. I asked. He thought it over very concerned and seriously. "It will never succeed. We are too powerful." I really enjoyed the guy's company, he is a nice guy, he believes in good, but....

Cattle industry, also bad. It has been since the days of Billy the Kid.

Bob, since you brought it up. We were getting great MVD service, until Republican government cutbacks crippled the process. When government cut backs on funding of funding for services, like the Postal Service, it tanks it out. Government performs better and more honorably than the big competition. It is big business that pushes for the less tax, which just puts money in their pockets. It isn't the government interference making problems, its the people controlling the government for profit instead of for people. Government does a great job, until greed gets in the way. The cost of healthcare is a tax, by a private industry. It cost way more than other universal care systems. The system works poorly, the care sucks, the decisions are made by death squads for profit.

This whole government can't do anything right is a hoax perpetrated by the funding of the Koch's etc. Why? for profit, deregulation, to exploit us all. The biggest expense of our local school district was trying to pay for health insurance increases to private companies, so the quality of education dissipated. The forest service used to do an incredible job, now there is neglect.

There is too much government, but then there is corporate meddling, by fat pigs.

The Free market system philosophy is unbridled capitalism. It always ends up the same, less competition, controlled by a few. It doesn't police itself by the nature of the game. That is a lie that started with the John Birch Society, but all promoted by pigs with hundreds of millions of dollars to influence.

Please, be more careful to not interject political non-naturist content into the conversation. I have to respond.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on November 15, 2020, 10:26:33 PM
Uh oh, here I go again. Yes, we get fast food in a minute, but it is hardly worthy of being called food, if we define it as nutrition instead of "just edible" "good for us" or create the illusion that just feeling full is having eaten.  ;D
Jbee

Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on November 16, 2020, 03:23:30 PM
Cattle industry, also bad. It has been since the days of Billy the Kid.

When I was a teenager I worked summers on my uncle's ranch.  I still have cousins in the cattle industry.   I buy beef from local ranches.   YUM!. 

You have your opinion Jbee, but painting the cattle industry or any other industry with such a broad brush is seriously mistaken and ignorant. 

Quote
Bob, since you brought it up. We were getting great MVD service,

Where I've lived, in New Mexico and Washington state, the MVD got so bad (3 hour lines) they turned it over to PRIVATE BUSINESS, and it's a whole lot better.  I won't go to their state MVD any more, and haven't gone there since. I gladly pay the extra $5 service fee because the Private Business contractors do much better at customer service. 

Quote
There is too much government, but then there is corporate meddling, by fat pigs.


Fat pigs make good eating.  The political bullshit about the Covid Plan-demic has disrupted our supply of pork more than once. 

This thread is getting way to political.  We disagree on politics but I'm not going to participate in further political argument in this forum.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on November 16, 2020, 09:29:55 PM
Wholly agreed. You and I are most often on respectfully two opposite sides of the political spectrum. This is a naturism site and we at least want to attempt to not wander off the topic too much. One reason I come here is to escape the common banter of political expression and newbies probably don't need to get the idea that that is what we are about.

I can comment on the MVD within that guideline. In Arizona, they tried selling our information to private groups to make up for funding, or the head of division got a kickback, but here was big uproar. Back in the late sixties, we used to have to wait well over an hour on hardwood train station benches, which was cruel and unusual punishment. No air conditioning.

It was running very smoothly for a couple of years, then, the cutbacks hit, it is so bad with covid that I haven't gone to report my change of address, which could be hours. The legislature likes to hit the rest stops, the MVD, the State Parks department, etc. first. The stuff that we the people are affected by first.

The relevant news is that they are attempting to do online service, which allows me to take care of much of the chores in the nude. The site has been a headache however. I don't want private contractors with access to my stuff and little public oversight, AND the expense of a middleman. I think that sitting naked in my warm home, taking care of all but title transfers will ultimately be the best solution and cheaper.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Peter S on November 17, 2020, 03:19:45 PM
We’ve had all our motor vehicle licensing etc online for years in the U.K. works very well. As the various agencies involved are all government there’s no issue over data selling - in any case, that’s already handled by insurance companies!
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on November 18, 2020, 08:59:33 AM
The online tax and test checkers are handy too.    When buying a used car you only need the reg no. To get all the test results  and see what it's failed on and had repaired in past years.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on November 18, 2020, 07:44:10 PM
The emissions tests are done at centers, the serial numbers have to be checked to match and also when buying a car, or trailer. Drivers tests are done at the center for cheating issues and photos. There is no particular dress code for this, but state law. The rest, I think, can be done without clothing.

There has been an option, because of the ineptitude and blatant stripping of funds for MVD, a business developed which sends a surrogate for you to register your car, etc. You pay something like $30 plus bucks extra to avoid the mess. I suppose that the service requires some cloth between the car and finalizing. Carnuding up to the surrogate office is more comfortable, because the MVD center is right next door to the police station. You don't have to wait at the office for them to do what they do. They go in and out of business, with the ebb and flow of funding. It is kind of like an extra tax. It is something that the poor can't have.

It is night and day, between the efficiency and curtousy of a public service that is defunded for political reasons, or the graft of privatization. Still, as much a headache that it is to learn a new system on a computer which should be simple, the convenience of not going to the mass torture buildings, in stuffy uniforms is worth it. I must say that it is more difficult to defund a privatized entity under contract than a government agency.

Emissions checks are privatized. They have no real competition. They are just as dysfunctional as the public ones could ever be. They have a lot of turnover and "always" new trainees who don't know what they are doing, because of the low wages and smog related health issues. Like any for profit outfit, they slash wages and so the quality of service personnel. I have to put on pants no matter who. Which would be the greater threat if I was dressed "inappropriately," a fearful new guy who is frightened to do something wrong, or offend a customer, or an old hand that feels more power in a secured well paying job? I'd have to say probably the former.

I apologize for bias. I have a chip on my shoulder perhaps for being a former school teacher and seeing how education has been handled as political lobbying pressures to privatize are defunding public education to make it look bad. It is just a ton of money to be tempted to get a piece of, by private interests. My Republican representative, head of the education committee, who offered my son a position as a page and for some reason was very friendly and candid with me, informed me of the political pressure on the legislature from this greed.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Peter S on November 19, 2020, 02:23:32 PM
So many bureaucratic systems, whether public or private, have been reduced to computerised scripts and tick boxes. Computer say yes, computer say no. The operator is then a minimum wage drone with minimal training and no discretion to decide what to do if a square peg won’t go in the round hole, and nowhere to mark it on the computer screen if there was any such discretion. And I’ve no doubt such systems were every bit as bad before computerisation, the inadequacies having been transferred to the screen.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on November 19, 2020, 03:20:30 PM
The only MONEY to be made in Nudism seems to be 1. resorts. Vacation/fenced compounds, and 2. porn. Providing picture of films of nude bodies. 

Both ways to make MONEY on nude people depends on keeping it illegal for most people to be naked at home or on the street, restricting access to nude freedom and restricting access to the sight of nude people.  Private industry satisfies market demand by providing both nude resorts and nude-sexual imagery.  Private industry says we have  right to be naked "where appropriate," meaning only at their pay-for-play resorts.  Private industry says nude and sexual pictures are not allowed on free public broadcast TV or big free Internet sites like Facebook.

In opposition there are huge profits to be made from requiring clothing, forcing us to buy and use their textile products.  The "fashion" industry makes buckets of money for themselves and for all the print, TV, film, and Internet media.  Those of us who eschew fashion and would rather not purchase their filthy fabric have no money to compete.  We have to compete by large numbers of us demanding public viewing of any kind of nudity, in every place. There is no money to buy politicians and media.   
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on November 19, 2020, 11:30:50 PM
AHmen, Bob.

Fortunately the legislatures and local bodies are staying away from worsening the damage that they have already done. Nudity has become controversial and the media filled with popular porn and nudity has been too dangerous to lead the masses into heftier regulations.

We're stuck here, except to doing what we can to get the word out and normalize the sight of nude bodies within the mass opinion. Even with all the porn, I think that fewer and fewer people consider it dangerous, or harmful like the olden days.

Now, how to teach the discernment between sex and simple nudity among those masses. Perhaps more normal bodies? People just having fun? Folks showing their butts at monuments? Influential celebs coming out? Standing on street corners passing out leaflets. Attempting to get positive stuff to go viral? Pulling off some extreme stunt that gets everybody's attention and gets them to talking, like Steven Gough? Start hanging out at pay for play and just give up our rights?
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on November 20, 2020, 02:59:14 PM
AHmen, Bob.
Now, how to teach the discernment between sex and simple nudity among those masses. Jbee

I'm not sure that is needed or even beneficial to public nudity.   The mantra "nudity is not sexual" has been preached by the "pay-for-play" industry for more than a century while they lobbied to keep public nudity illegal (except behind their fences).  These days there are a lot more people posting their own sexual selfie pictures on Internet sites than going to nudist resorts.  Sexuality is a very powerful motivation for most humans, including many nudists and most people who post nude selfies. 

One of the reasons that single men are unwelcome in many nudist clubs is because they have a hidden sex club (special interest sub group) where too many men would overwhelm the women members.  The AANR group that I was President of for a while had one of those that I didn't know about until my wife divorced me and she got invited to their nude sex parties.  It turned out that about half of the "nudist" AANR club were in it for the sex. 

Perhaps the cause of nude freedom would be easier to promote if nudists stopped pretending that naked people are not sexual.  Nobody pretends that silly mantra about clothed people. Babes in thong bikinis are all about being sexual.  So are men in tights.  None of us get any less sexual by taking it off. 

Seems to me that in addition to nudists showing the flag by being seen naked a lot, we need to get honest and recognize the sexual nature of our bodies and our species.  Hiding our biological sexuality an pretending it doesn't exist hasn't succeeded. 

Bob

Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on November 20, 2020, 09:17:48 PM
When I’m in a socially nude situation, My sense of nudity is magically desexualized. I have experienced the outside world and its conditioning, then find myself in a nude gathering. At first, my eyes went everywhere, from my outside world perspective and habits, then very quickly, it dropped away.

Reentry into the outside world will eventually turn mere nudity back into the same sexual projections.

Sexual thoughts, of course reappear, here and there at a social gathering, but not as much. I keep them to myself, just as I would in a clothed situation. It is self-control, polite socialization, curtesy, effective social functioning. Thoughts, feelings are who we are, but there is choice, as to how to act on them.

In our sweat community gatherings, there is a simple rule against no overt sexuality. It is about worship and community and safe environment, unity, family, celebration, sacred. Our sexuality isn’t curbed, our actions of sexuality are curbed. Our focus and activity is different, nudity becomes normalized and comfortable.

The rules of most nude resorts are no overt sexuality. It scares off newbies and divides the participants. You come for a nude day, not a pickup venue.

Social nudity decreases the sexuality of the sight of a naked human. Idealized beauty tends to fall apart. People share feelings other than come-ons. People rely less on fantasy and more on emotional connection to turn on sexually. This clotheslessness/nakedness idea of being more sexual is another fantasy and simply goes away.

What is left is other sexual stimulus, like favored, or conditioned body types, emotional bonding, etc. Curiosity is natural, but being sexualized is uncomfortable for the other, very often. So, one keeps it to oneself, until it is mutually comfortable, or understood to be safe territory.

If, I’m looking for casual sexual relationships and am asked to not to do that at a socially nude gathering, I can easily do that. Social nudity actually decreases my sexual senses. The tease is gone, the mental stripping and forbiddances not there, if all covering is gone, all questions, etc. all of which are set up and reinforced by the outside culture. Just being nude feels really really good, by itself.

All of the above has been anecdotally reported and agreed with by nudist for decades. I have experienced it. It is most common. To characterize other clubs by one experience is erroneous. I have never seen this, on the contrary, I have seen numerous people get kicked out, because of behavior. I also don’t doubt that this happened at a club in Washington, years ago. Nude clubs are not there as pickup venues, which threaten spouses, making them uncomfortable, which are bad business, and membership problems, with any club, except swinger clubs.

Nude people act like clothed people, just with their clothes off. If they are taught to act weird they will choose to act weird.
My thinking is that I will be prosecuted for simply being nude, also in some cases socially ostracized. The reason is the cultural and social connotations of sex and nudity not being exclusive. There is a difference that needs to be discerned. The discernment is that sexual thoughts and feelings occur in clothed and unclothed people as natural. It makes no difference walking down the street clothed or unclothed. It is the projection of others whether it is a sexual act to them. It is the intent of the walker whether it is a sexual act. When I can walk down the street to enjoy walking, shopping, or with purpose other than sexual, whether clothed or not, the two states of dress, or unadorned are the same. 

Anyhoo, I’m not pretending that social nudity takes away all of my sexuality. It does drop off a hellofa lot of baggage at the door and make for a nice space. If nudists believed that they were not sexual beings, then they wouldn’t have to impose rules and kick people out for breaking them. There have been for decades wide ranging reports that being nude takes lots of sexuality out of the equation. There had been that experience in the world of nude psychological therapies, as well. I believe it to be true, by experiences and testimony over and over again, my whole life.

People are disassociated and discombobulated about their bodies and sexuality, self-esteem, idealization of beauty, the sexualization of each other, and warped into believing their fantasies.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on February 03, 2021, 11:52:11 PM
Here's to Captain Tom. Still a hero at 100 only to be struck down by his enemy.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Peter S on February 04, 2021, 12:17:24 PM
Thank you, JB - although he is “our” hero it’s nice to know his influence has been felt beyond these shores. In some ways he did so little, walking round his garden, but the effect it had on so many people really gave us a life when we needed it. And when we’re feeling dragged down by the situation, we can channel the feelings he evoked to pick ourselves, dust ourselves off and keep keeping on.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on February 10, 2021, 09:22:35 AM
Just to clarify , Capt Tom was admitted to hospital suffering from pneumonia.    Died a few days later in hospital , he had a positive covid test in hospital but pneumonia was the primary cause of death.   
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: Bob Knows on February 10, 2021, 06:27:45 PM
Just to clarify , Capt Tom was admitted to hospital suffering from pneumonia.    Died a few days later in hospital , he had a positive covid test in hospital but pneumonia was the primary cause of death.   

That sound sad.  I do not recall Capt. Tom.   Was he a member of this forum that we knew by a different name?    Can someone post a bio? 
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on February 10, 2021, 10:15:15 PM
At 99, he raised over 39 million British Pounds for people dealing with Covid, doing what he could, walk in his garden. Pretty damn good score, when they think that you're washed up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Tom

Gotta respect him. Gotta be inspired. Purpose, heart, passion, a place of value, service, all of these will sustain life as much as diet and exercise.

ric, The covid doesn't kill, it is the immune system reacting/overreacting that makes the symptoms. Those weak ones have a jeopardized immune system. So, I'd say that the Covid kicked him over and killed him as much as anything. It complicates. More poetic that way, I suppose. Anyway, I'm grateful for hearing about Captain Tom. He'll now have an effect on me as long as I keep ticking.
Jbee
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: ric on February 11, 2021, 09:28:26 AM
In uk wearebobarded by statistics.....the primary ones being the number of new cases daily.....which is the number of positive pcr tests.....it's widly claimed that thepce test isn't fit for purpose and can give over 90% false positive results.
2nd headline figure is the number of deaths "due to covid"......actually anyone whose had a positive pcr test within 28 days of deaths.....you could have no symptoms and be run over by a bus....but if you've had the positive test within 28 days you're a covid death.

Basically the figures used to frighten the population are meaningless.
Title: Re: FRN During Lockdowns
Post by: jbeegoode on February 11, 2021, 10:38:30 PM
Yea, but what if that bus had covid on the bumper? ;D
Good point, ric.

I had a lot of trouble breathing when I had covid. If I had had pneumonia with it, I would have had quite a time coughing the mucus up. My Dad had Parkinson's and got pneumonia and couldn't cough it up because of the preexisting longitudinal condition...well, which killed him? Co-morbid is messy.
Jbee