Free Range Naturism

Naturism => Free Range Naturism => Topic started by: jbeegoode on November 14, 2013, 04:01:43 AM

Title: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 14, 2013, 04:01:43 AM
Sailrich asked what one might do during encounters with textiles or authorities.

It depends on the location and circumstance. In California, you have no state laws in concern of nudity upon my last look (check out the statutes online), no Federal laws, but local laws and authority jurisdictions tend to bleed into these areas. If I’m off in the booneys, what would one say? I usually cover my genitals and politely say something like, “Oh, I didn’t expect to see anyone out here,” when encountering anybody. Or I duck out and hide until they pass. The cover covers most of these silly law’s requirements. There is that “reasonable person would” type of law that sometimes applies. I’ve know forest service people who have hiked nude. But, a few years back in northern California, there were helicopters and teams after some guy who had been reported repeatedly in one area by women freaking out over his nudity. I figure that the message needing to be conveyed is, I’m hiking nude minding my own business, nude is okay. I’ll cover to be polite, because I don’t know about your reaction. No apology needed.

Staying away from encounters does work, can be stealth fun, or a hassle when you just want to enjoy nature.

Another thing is, are you male, female, or more than one, encountering one or more of which sex. Nude women have less potential to alarm. A majority tends to create a norm. Lone women encountered by nude males can get very imaginative.

What has been your strategy?
Jbeegoode
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on December 19, 2013, 05:51:10 PM
Over several decades I have encountered many people while hiking naked.   My first thing is to have a plan before I see someone.  My years of childhood training still causes me to panic unless I have a plan to do something else.

The situation is important.  Law enforcement is lazy and normally won't get out of its patrol car.  I have never encountered law enforcement on a hiking trail on government land.  I have encountered many other hikers.  My usual plan is to act like my selection of non-clothes is a normal option by a  normal person.  I have found that if you try to "cover," apologize,  or otherwise act guilty, then the other person assumes that you are guilty.   If you act normal, then you are accepted as normal.  The important thing is to remain calm and ordinary.  I just "howdy" them like I would if I was wearing the same as they are wearing.  Most often they howdy me back. Sometimes they will comment on how they wish they had the courage to dress like me.  Teens will occasionally snicker. 

Out on my own land I have been seen by all my neighbors, and by many cars driving by on the country road.  Nobody has ever complained. 

Carpe Diem
Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on December 19, 2013, 06:04:53 PM
A sports analogy occurred to me while reading the introduction from a Scottish member.   Scotland doesn't have specific anti-nude laws, but the plods respond to complaints about nudity.  It reminds me of my local football team, the Seattle Seahawks.   They have perhaps the best defensive backfield of any American football team. 

The Seahawk backfield plays tough aggressive defense and makes a lot of contact with the other players.  Early in the season the referees penalized them several times for overly aggressive defensive play.  Their coach told them, "Keep doing it.  The referees will soon get tired of penalizing you."   That strategy worked well.  Now the referees penalize them once or twice in a game and then give up.  In the whole league now the referees have become much less interested in limiting aggressive defense by penalties.   

That works for naked ramblers too.  If we keep going naked the referees, the police, will soon get tired of coming out to look for a naked rambler. Its a lot of work for them and doesn't really make anyone more safe.  Up-tight people will soon get tired of phoning the police when they see a naked rambler, even if the police respond, and a lot sooner if the police have given up.  We naked ramblers need to keep doing it.  The other hikers will soon get tired of complaining and just accept us as normal. The police will quit responding to complaints, even in up-tight places like Scotland.   Carpe Diem!

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Georgew1959 on January 23, 2014, 05:27:26 AM
I'm not sure if that analogy would work with the Scottish police Bob, but I do think that being prepared to cover up on request is adequate protection from being arrested. All the reports I've seen and heard about the Naked Rambler's encounters with police in Scotland say that it's his refusal to cover up when challenged that gets him into bother with them. For my part, I haven't yet encountered another person when out walking naked in Scotland (although I have heard people coming though the woods a few times and taken a diversion to avoid them). We have so much space here and so few people that it's not hard to find quiet places.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on February 27, 2014, 05:17:22 PM
I have been seen, I think 3 times.  Two I am not certain and could have not been.  One was full on face to face on the trail.  To this day I still do not know how I was so unaware that someone was approaching that I was unable to do anything.  By the time I saw him we were maybe 100 ft. apart.  By then it was pointless to do anything, so I didn't even attempt to cover up.

He made a comment about trying to get an allover tan and I mumbled something.  It was the 1st time I had been seen naked out on one of my hikes.  I continued on and so did he.  It was kind of a relief.  I got seen and nothing happened.

I agree with Bob.  Behave as though you are dressed and all is normal and people will not think you are up to something and feel uneasy.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on June 15, 2015, 05:54:37 PM
One point about this subject. I prefer to not intentionally put myself in a confrontational situation. As a result I no longer naked hike in the place where I bumped into that guy on the trail. It is a popular and a favorite place for locals and tourists alike and can be very crowded.

For this reason I stopped my naked hikes there and have spent most of my naked time out of town about 30 miles at a place not so easy to hike to. I have seen people there at the trail head but not on the trail. My wife and I once spotted a couple on horses that were outbound with pack animals in tow, but they were at least a half mile off and headed away from us.

It is remote and quiet.  Two aspects I value.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on June 15, 2015, 07:14:45 PM
One point about this subject. I prefer to not intentionally put myself in a confrontational situation. As a result I no longer naked hike in the place where I bumped into that guy on the trail. It is a popular and a favorite place for locals and tourists alike and can be very crowded.

I don't get intentionally confrontational either, but I don't assume that being seen naked is confrontational.  I act normal while dressing natural and expect others to act normal too.  That almost always works for me.  Once every 100 encounters or so someone will make a negative comment, not a problem.  I get a lot more positive comments.  "You look comfortable."  or "I wish I could do that."  I've never actually been confronted while hiking naked. 

One time the owner of an RV camping place, or Caravan camping place for you Brits, did ask me to put on some pants when someone complained that I was sitting at the table naked reading a book.  I noted that the other campers did not become confrontational.  That's about as confrontational as its been for me over several decades of encountering people.


Quote
For this reason I stopped my naked hikes there and have spent most of my naked time out of town about 30 miles at a place not so easy to hike to. I have seen people there at the trail head but not on the trail. My wife and I once spotted a couple on horses that were outbound with pack animals in tow, but they were at least a half mile off and headed away from us.

It is remote and quiet.  Two aspects I value.
Duane

I live out of town so my normal range is more quiet than city people.   I don't think it hurts city people to see nakeds either though.  On some other forums I see posts from people who go naked in cities without getting into trouble.  Your mileage may vary.

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Karla on June 15, 2015, 09:46:05 PM
Our friend Richard in Bavaria (he runs http://naktiv.net/index.html/, a social network for naturists) does a lot of free range naturism. We were regularly walking naked past lots of Germans in the Alps when we were out with him. Acting normal and being friendly is the main thing. Although he can speak much better German than us, I wouldn't want to rely on my command of a foreign language to show that I mean no harm!

Another thing he told us is that having a dog makes a big difference. Not an aggressive dog but a pet dog or companion.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Georgew1959 on June 20, 2015, 09:33:10 AM
I remember reading long ago in a book about places to get naked in the UK, that proximity to water legitimised being naked. That seems to have proven itself over the years since. It seems more acceptable to be naked near a lake, a river or on a beach and I've never had so much as an adverse comment, let alone a confrontation, when I've been skinny dipping or sitting near the water. On the few occasions I've seen other people when out walking I've mostly had no problems, but on a couple of occasions people have objected. Not really a big sample size, but that old rule has seemed to hold true.

Of course, on those couple of occasions, covering up quickly too the heat out of the situation.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on July 10, 2015, 10:15:41 PM
I ran across this post on a website. A lady, whom I get the impression is a newcomer to the naked community, wrote the following:

Quote
There's the inevitable experience of having someone we know recognize us on the beach. It will happen sooner or later. It can be scary when that happens walking hand-in-hand down the beach nowhere near our clothes with nowhere to hide and nothing to cover up. Do we turn around quickly and hope the people we recognize didn't see us, or do we face our fears? And what if the people jump up, greet us, and thank us for coming? No way to avoid it then. And how do we handle the situation on Monday when we talk with someone at work or school who we've known for a long time, and who we just saw totally nude a day or two earlier?

What she writes has to do with adjusting to being outside naked. I went through  that at first, but that was merely getting past breaking old taboos. If I were seen by a stranger or even approach by one I am certain I would be fine. I have even been seen once or twice and nothing bad happened.

What I haven't had happen is what she descibes here. Meeting someone I know while I'm naked. I don't think I would have a problem meeting someone I know if I were at a nude beach or other nude venue, or even if we were both nude out on a trail. They would be naked also and that would present a new aspect to an acquiantence or friendship. Hopefully a good thing.

What this made me think of was bumping into someone I know while I am naked and they, not only aren't naked, but do not engage in naked activities. I never felt awkward being in a large group shower at my old health club. We were in a "naked is normal" setting. You can't take a shower with your clothes on. The setting made it ok, and of course I would not have met a woman, naked or otherwise, in that setting.

Being where nudity is not normal and in mixed company would be the only differences. Nudity is normal in context but not out of context. Allowing the public or an acquaintance see a part of you that is private is at issue. For instance, some people who paint, do so only in their quarters, they don't want any one to see in case it doesn't meet a standard. Others you see painting on the street or in the park. If they are comfortable with their gift, talent or passion and strangers see their those efforts, they don't worry. They are at ease.

When it comes to allowing a close friend or associate see what we truly look like or to let them know we enjoy "nudity", we (I) hesitate. We would be the same people, ideas and beliefs, just in a different setting.

Can you imagine this happening with someone you work with? The next day at work, or even more awkward, church, you smile and plow ahead as though there is nothing different. Or maybe you have a new conversation.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: reubenT on July 10, 2015, 10:47:01 PM
it shouldn't matter,  but it does to our minds because of the anti naked conditioning of our society,  that's been programmed into our minds.  I recognize it in my mind, it wants to panic at risk of being seen, completely void of reason.  I want to live by reason and common sense,   but deleting and reprogramming those old files that were put there so long ago is difficult. 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on July 11, 2015, 03:28:24 AM
Back when I was teaching, I had to consider this possibility out on the local popular trails. Imaging the G-rated reaction from a school system, when a junior high kid pops out his cell phone and distributes your image. You're out of a job. I had to stay out of certain areas, lessen my nudist club participation, and keep myself anonymous.

Most jobs wouldn't be affected by this "morals" problem. Craig Smith, the guy who wrote "Growing Up w/out Shame" told me that he was a 5th grade teacher for like 25 years. He published the book and attended landed clubs during that time.

I was driving a school bus for a while when single parenting my young son, again working in a school district. I belonged to that non-landed club I just mentioned participation in. As I sat naked in a jaccuzzi at a nude house party function, who should sit down on the edge but a co-worker. I had to caution her to not tell anyone, as rumor used to fly in the yard. We got naked together, co-conspirators. The three secret nudists.

Karla and Stuart, I just read The Naktive section of "Naked at Lunch" this afternoon. He wrote that several of the twenty had concerns about discovery by employers. What kind of employment were these people in?
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on July 11, 2015, 07:03:00 AM
Yes, but you both were at nude facility and both naked. You had the goods on each other. As you said, co-conspirators.

In a place where you are naked and you meet someone you know but they aren't naked and aren't interested in naked activities. There in lies the rub.

I imagine it would force me to do something to clarify my situation. Good or bad may come. In general I don't like being forced to do things. I am a planner or analyser. I prefer to think things through before doing. Spur of the moment isn't my strong suit.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on July 11, 2015, 07:13:00 PM
I don't want to piecemeal Duane's post but there is a little story to tell. During my college years we frequented a place known for skinny dipping. One day a ffrat brother plus his girlfriend and another girl wanted to go swimming at a local park lake. Part of a twelve pack later instead of going to the lake we detoured to what was known as Bare Ass Beach. As we tapped into another 12 pack the other couple headed for a more private area leaving the other girl behind. Since we had little in common we just drank, sunned and swam. A few years later that girl began to date a friend of mine and she pulled me aside to implore me not to say anything of our beach day. I did assure her my lips were sealed but I imagine she didn't want her boyfriend to know I had seen her naked.

There was a teacher on another forum that was found out. What would posses a parent to do so much detective work is beyond me but part of her "punishment" was to drop participation on the forum. She did eventually leave that position to start elsewhere but the "morals" clause in many contracts is usually enforced to the max. That way parents don't make a fuss at school board meetings.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on July 11, 2015, 08:37:01 PM
That's why I'm Jbee and I don't paste pics with our faces to claim anonymity. Trouble from a morals clause is unlikely for us, now, but one never can be completely sure, so hedge the bet. I always resented the school situation. I resent being stuffed in a closet, having my free speech and free expression suppressed, living a lie and having my personal time imposed on. I understand employer image concerns, but there is a limit that should always err to the personal freedom end and some pigs just can't understand boundaries, like they think that they own people because they pay them money. I refuse to work with those conditions, or attitudes.

Otherwise, I just don't care if someone else sees my nude body. Why should I?
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: yeldew on July 17, 2015, 06:26:17 PM
I walked with the Singles’ Outdoor Club yesterday near Petersfield.

Half way round the 12-mile walk we were surprised by a couple walking round the end of the hedgerow only a few yards away :-[

I wondered if the front walkers would bother to cover up, being so close. They did, so we did also at the back of the line of 22 naked walkers.

The couple passed by with wide smiles, and the male of the couple said,  “There was no need to bother – we’re Dutch”.

Made my day  :) :) :)

Norman.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: milfmog on July 17, 2015, 07:48:51 PM
The couple passed by with wide smiles, and the male of the couple said,  “There was no need to bother – we’re Dutch”.

It's surprising how often that is the reaction I have received; it's certainly more common than disapproval. let alone hostility.

Thanks for sharing that Norman.

Have fun,


Ian.

PS: I will be on the SOC walk at Hoo (near Gravesend) on 26/7; anyone else going to be there?
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: yeldew on July 17, 2015, 08:06:55 PM
I hope to be there on 26th.
My wife will still be in respite care.
It's likely to be the only other SOC walk I can make this year so will certainly try to be there.
Norman.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on July 18, 2015, 03:28:55 AM
I walked with the Singles’ Outdoor Club yesterday near Petersfield.

Half way round the 12-mile walk we were surprised by a couple walking round the end of the hedgerow only a few yards away :-[

I wondered if the front walkers would bother to cover up, being so close. They did, so we did also at the back of the line of 22 naked walkers.

The couple passed by with wide smiles, and the male of the couple said,  “There was no need to bother – we’re Dutch”.

Made my day  :) :) :)
Norman.

"We're Dutch." What does THAT mean!?! I can only surmise.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on July 18, 2015, 04:52:07 AM
The couple passed by with wide smiles, and the male of the couple said,  “There was no need to bother – we’re Dutch”.
Made my day  :) :) :)
Norman.


I don't know why being Dutch makes any difference.  There was no need to bother covering up.

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on July 18, 2015, 05:00:00 AM
Don't know if this qualifies as an "encounter" but here's what happened.

I awoke this morning at about 3 AM.  It was a New Moon so it was very dark outside, dark sky, lots of stars.  Good night to step outside and enjoy the night, I thought. 

I slid the bolt on my back door, opened it, and stepped out naked into the night.  As I looked around I heard some heavy footsteps, thump, thump, thump, thump.  Close but unseen.

I stepped rapidly back into the building, closed my door, and slid the bolt home. 

I went to a window and peered out into the darkness.  I could see the general landscape in starlight, but nothing that would make heavy footstep noises.  Could have been a deer or elk, I suppose, or a moose perhaps.  Maybe a big foot.

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on July 18, 2015, 09:15:00 AM
Tracks in the morning?
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Karla on July 18, 2015, 01:18:42 PM
"We're Dutch." What does THAT mean!?! I can only surmise.

Basically the Dutch are far less prudish than the Brits.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on July 18, 2015, 06:12:31 PM
I find it fascinating that this is a piece of national identity. An ethnocentric truth. Over here, we live in such a vast and diverse circumstance that we must see ourselves as regional at most and a mixing bowl. We can't see ourselves as generally more or less prudish, or much of anything else. We may speak different, architecture may generally change and history adds flavor, but that is somewhat superficial, regional and insignificant nationally. There is a hodgepodge of personal trending and individuality. Identity in the US, I think, is ethnic, or what you watch on media, etc.

Like any country's people, the ethnocentric attitudes like pride, or tribal identity are still there, but here they are mostly washed out.
Jbee 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on July 18, 2015, 06:36:55 PM
Quote from: Karla
Quote from: jbeegoode
"We're Dutch." What does THAT mean!?! I can only surmise.

Basically the Dutch are far less prudish than the Brits.

Maybe Paul will pop in to clarify and expand on that. I figured that's what he meant.

Bob, we expect plaster imprint casts with a full report. Maybe next time you'll discover whether bigfoot is also a naked hiker.  ;D

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on July 18, 2015, 06:56:16 PM
Ah, come on guys, of course Bigfoot's a nude hiker. Imagine him in a speedo or worse!  :o

Maybe I'll publish my old Bigfoot posts next month.

Just last night, I was contemplating how I identify with Bigfoot because of the need for stealth from predators and their way of blowing things in imagination out of proportion. "Oh cripe! Here comes another of those dang encroaching humans." ;D
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on July 18, 2015, 07:09:40 PM
That's a weird mental image. A massive physical frame with a tiny little speedo.

Makes you think of Arnold in one of his photos in younger days.
Which makes you think of bodybuilding.
Which makes you remember the ESPN post elsewhere here.

Which begs the question, why were there no bodybuilders in the article.
I've always thought bodybuilding somewhat odd. It makes the human body look like a caricature. Maybe that's why.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: reubenT on July 19, 2015, 07:28:49 AM
insecurity?   self worship?  pride?   maybe several issues going on there.      We should be fit and healthy,  plenty of hard work can make us look quite filled out,  but striving for excessive buildup just to win a strength contest,  or look good,   is too much vanity.      I've worked harder than most do now days, loading logs manually with cant hook and operating a sawmill,    to where I can pick up more than my own weight with relative ease.    Sawed railroad ties for awhile off and on,    manual mill,  hand stacking everything,  green oak ties weigh 235 lb.     But I don't look all that musclebound,  don't want to any more than moderate.  And it's getting too easy to put my spine or hips out of place when I do that,  so I have to limit the stress.  Hard to do when there's a job to be done and I want to just get in there and do it all at once.   Better to do it in smaller pieces, or use a machine.  No point in trying to impress someone else.    Although it happens inadvertently sometimes, like when someone is trying to move a heavy object and I help em and make it look too easy.   

 My idea on nude risk taking,  is to be careful,  do it where there's the least chance of meeting others.   Occasionally someone will appear without notice,  if I see them first I'll cover up just enough to be "normal"    if I see em too late I'll pretend nothing is wrong, because nothing is wrong.  If they appear shocked, well,  deal with it.  It'll probably shock me more than them.    Cover up after the fact and be sorry for surprising them,   just getting some extra sunshine,  or some lame excuse.    If someone ever tries to call me a pervert over it I'll direct them to mychainsaregone website,  full explanation that makes lots of sense.   How hiding our naked bodies for moral reasons has had the exact opposite effect it is thought to have.   Most of my naked outings are on my own land and the logging roads within 4 miles or so.  The road on the ridge is open ended and has occasional traffic.   Like one vehicle in one to three days.   I have met vehicles there,  I hear them coming and step off the road into the bushes when naked.     
   
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: midnightrider on July 20, 2015, 05:32:21 AM
As from the reply of the male person of the couple saying:
Quote
“There was no need to bother – we’re Dutch”
He probably meant that most of the Dutch are quite open minded when it comes to nudity, but I can asure you that this is not applicable to all the Dutch. There are parts of the country where this is not the case, one of those area's is called "The Bible belt".
In my country nudity is allowed at suitable places, so if you are hiking with a group with no intentions to offend people and avoiding highly populated area's there is only a small chance of getting into trouble. But it all depends on the view of the local authorities.

Cheers,
Paul
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on July 21, 2015, 07:47:18 PM
Quote from: Jbee
"We're Dutch." What does THAT mean!?! I can only surmise.

In America, "Goin' Dutch", simply means when out on an evening, everyone is responsible for their own expenses. I don't know why that is, it just has always meant that.

Maybe they were not "A couple".   :D

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on July 23, 2015, 07:26:34 PM
I tried a new walk on Sunday, trying an area I've walked a number of times textile (with others) and each time thought the empty landscape should be FreeRange-Friendly (at the time I thought SN-Friendly, but times change :o) )

Having crossed a couple of fields and climbed a hill through a wood with the place to myself, I found myself on the open hilltop heading towards woodland and thinking, I am in the open sunshine and perfectly visible to anyone in the wood but I wouldn't be able to see them as the wood is just a dark area. When I was 20 yards from the wood there appeared a dog immediately followed by its slowly jogging owner. Oops, too late to do anything! So I made like nothing was amiss, nodded a greeting (which was ignored) and carried on, as did he.

An hour or so later, on the return downhill leg, I was sat on a log taking a drink and a breather when dog and owner appeared from the wood behind me. This time, given where I was, I had donned my shorts. The jogger made to pass, looked at me twice and stopped. "Was that you earlier walking around naked up there?" I admitted as much, and said it was only way to be in such lovely weather (sparkling repartee is not my strong point). "Does anyone ever get angry at you?" he asked. No, I said, some people laugh.

And off he went.

peter
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: milfmog on July 24, 2015, 03:19:19 PM
I reckon that when I look back over all my unplanned encounters around 10% of folks are happy to stop and chat. Another 10% look concerned / angry / unhappy and avoid any contact with the naked madman and 80% don't really give a monkey's cuss either way. I'd guess your dog walker was towards the intolerant end of not really caring.

Have fun,


Ian.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Safebare on October 24, 2015, 08:36:41 PM
I had 2 encounters this past month that I found interesting.  The first was at the Padre Island National Seashore (Corpus Christi).  I had to be in Corpus for the day and vowed to get my feet into the sand before returning home.  It was late on a weekday and only one car sitting next to a tent near the pilings that mark the beginning of the National property.  The area next to the pilings is often crowded with families getting away from the beach traffic, so you have to cover until you get far enough down the beach not to attract attention.  This time I simply threw a sarong around my waist and headed out.  The sarong only stayed on for a short distance as no one was in sight.  I found a log in the dunes a short distance further and stashed the sarong to continue unencumbered.  I got to a spot where I decided to go for a quick swim before heading back.  I noticed a figure in the distance headed toward me.  No bother, I was going into the water anyway.  As I played in the surf, trying to coax a body surfing wave out of the tide, the young man waved from the beach as he neared.
It was obvious that he was going to wait for me.  I continued playing in the surf for as long as I had planned then returned to shore.  There he was in shorts and me completely bare.  We shared greetings and he apologized for his 'stalking' nature.  He had never been to a Texas beach (from Ft Worth) and thought I might appreciate a spotter while enjoying the surf.  I assured him that I had been doing this since diapers and was confident in my abilities to avoid harm in the calm Texas surf.  He asked about biting and stinging critters and I assured him that he would not encounter any on this day.
He then asked if it was really ok to be naked.  I assured him that no one would bother him there.  That nudity was ok for the most part, as long as you didn't impose on those that would be offended.  He exclaimed 'Awesome!'  We went our separate ways, he stripping off the shorts and jumping in the surf, me the long nude journey home.  Second story to follow.

Be Safe, Be Bare,
Safebare
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Safebare on October 24, 2015, 09:01:51 PM
The second encounter happened the following week near McFadden Beach on the upper Texas Coast.  I used to live on Bolivar Peninsula and enjoyed this particular stretch of beach over many decades.  This area is very remote and can be extremely difficult to get to.  Different police departments have struggled over jurisdiction ending up with an agreement with the park service to enforce textile compliance, you only need to cover the offending bits.  So the citations do not carry the impact of a judicial case, only a fine.  The park service also enforces a ban on using park roads, making access even more difficult.  This is a distraction from the actual story, but thought you would like to have some background. 
I was in my Mazda 6, not a particularly good beach vehicle, but I'm not easily intimidated.  I pulled up to the first stretch of soft sand and stopped to pee and consider options.  A truck was approaching and also stopped on the other side of the soft sand.  He stepped out in a thong and looked for a good place to get through the sand.  Since he was coming from the traditional nude area wearing minimal attire, I did not cover.  After negotiating the soft sand, he stopped and got out to talk with me, stripping off the pouch of his thong.
I asked about the drivabilty of the beach further down.  He said that another car was down there, but probably drove through the park road to get there.  He didn't think anyone could get down the beach without 4X4.  He then kept exclaiming how wonderful it was to see another naked man.  The whole while, he could not keep his hands off his penis.  Pulling it to and fro, juggling and tugging it.  I just wanted to get on with my day.
I got through the soft sand and actually made it to the traditional nude area.  Everyone was on guard to cover, but there was plenty of open beach.  I carry a sock to don if I suspect the approach of authorities, it also makes a good koozie.  Did not have to wear the sock this day, did not get stuck and got some very nice shells.  A good day. 
The exhibitionists have taken all of the fun away from this section of beach.  They post their activities on line and wonder why they get harassed by the authorities.  Graffiti at the entrance announces the nude beach, but then also states 'NO CHILDREN'.  I explained to the man in the convertible thong that was why I usually chose to go elsewhere (Padre Island, etc.). 

Be Safe, Be Bare,
Safebare
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on October 27, 2015, 02:54:20 AM
Sorry to read about another of these exhibitionists playing with themselves. They give us all a bad name.

The access to a wide area with remote warm water beach isn't something that I thought existed in this country anymore. You may have just added something to my bucket list.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on October 27, 2015, 03:46:52 AM
I was out with the Singles Outdoor Club in April of last year--I think it was their first walk of the season--and that group normally covers up if they encounter anyone on the path. But sometimes there are situations where someone comes around a corner quickly and catches them unaware. That happened on this walk, where a woman walking two dogs met the group, about a dozen of us, unexpectedly. She shook her head and said, "Nobody will ever believe this" and walked on.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: johnb on October 27, 2015, 08:43:12 AM
I was out with the Singles Outdoor Club in April of last year--I think it was their first walk of the season--and that group normally covers up if they encounter anyone on the path. But sometimes there are situations where someone comes around a corner quickly and catches them unaware. That happened on this walk, where a woman walking two dogs met the group, about a dozen of us, unexpectedly. She shook her head and said, "Nobody will ever believe this" and walked on.

Your post reminded me of one or two others SOC encounters. Normally one is looking ahead to see if anyone is coming, however on one occasion some back markers were caught up unexpectedly from behind by a couple of women. They were quite happy and one joked that her husband would never believe her.

On a more recent occasion on a narrow section of path in the Boxhill area, we met a woman with a dog as she came around a bend a few yards ahead. We stopped and started to cover up, but she simply smiled and don't worry.

Obviously group encounters with a just one or two textiles, tend to play out differently to a single naturist encountering one or more textiles.

John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on October 27, 2015, 02:31:07 PM
While editing my video footage I came across some more footage of my encounter with a dog walker one morning during my boat trip from which this still is taken.
A quick viewing of the footage shows that I tried to make eve contact with him ready to exchange a greeting but he ignored me and there is no speech on the sound track.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/691/21896775723_6d2ca5940c_t.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/691/21896775723_6d2ca5940c_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on October 27, 2015, 07:13:51 PM
JohnGW, that is a very telling picture combined with your description of the encounter.

It would be difficult to tell what a person is thinking, when they offer no eye contact, looking the other way, hiding from any communication.

I have to ask why the avoidance. Is it knee jerk politeness training, that when one is nude, that it is a private moment?  Is it not to cast eyes on sin and remain pure? Is it fear of something unknown? Is it disgust at something is out of place when everything has to be in place? Is it the sexual associations that nudity implies to the sick and he thinks that he has encountered some exhibitionistic character out for jollies? Is he just one of those people who go through life whose standard interaction is without eye contact with passersby, wishing to avoid involvement with anyone, like so many do in the larger crowded cities? When I walk around the University, rarely do people greet, nod, acknowledge, but avoid any interaction. Could it be that he just doesn’t want any interaction with the freak, so as to be sucked in looking as, or feeling as uncool as this naked person? Many would die before being seen naked vulnerable, insecurities, secrets uncovered and this is associating with that projection. Could it be so out of his norm, so out of place, that he just doesn’t know how to react, is confused and is being cautious? “Hallucinations…am I having hallucinations, surely this can’t be real.”

These people who don’t lay their cards on the table are scary. You never know what they are thinking, or what they might do.

All of the above, I see as much to do about nothing. It is unreasonable fears, personal insecurities driving irrational control needs.

 Personal boundaries are set aside and created by all sorts of communication. They are learned over many years and adjusted to circumstance. People get locked up in their comfort zones, trapped like the metaphor of a cage. Sometimes animals get aggressive when you get too close to the cage. Sometimes they bite a friendly helping hand. Sometimes they cower. They are always conditioned by the circumstance and protection of the cage. When we are naked during an encounter, we have disappeared the cage. One of the other animals is loose and the caged ones notice. It is a different world out of the cage.

This is all very human, very complex, very diverse, fear was hardwired into us from a very long time ago.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on October 27, 2015, 11:42:28 PM
JBee - in my experience the eye contact and greeting conundrum is very much a city v village thing.
In a village everybody greets everybody else as a matter of common politeness whether they know them or not whereas in a city the convention is to ignore everybody except people with whom you already have a degree of intimacy.

The canal towpath generally comes into the village category but, judging from the FRN-craft which I exercised before choosing that particular mooring spot, the dog walker in the picture may well have driven to the nearest canal bridge to walk his dogs on a Sunday morning and actually dwell in the centre of Birmingham.

I have noticed this village/city contrast particularly on the canal in the middle of London where to boaters it is a village while to all others it is a city.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: balead on November 04, 2015, 12:59:56 PM
But sometimes there are situations where someone comes around a corner quickly and catches them unaware.

Obviously group encounters with a just one or two textiles, tend to play out differently to a single naturist encountering one or more textiles.

I'm not saying this is typical but I was out walking in October when on passing a gap in the hedge, a couple appeared, walking through it. I obviously had no time to react. They had coats on so must have been very surprised to see a naked person. The male said "Are you alright mate?". I just replied with a "Good morning", walked on and they went in the opposite direction. The most embarrassing thing about the encounter for me was when I realised that despite my greeting, it was well gone 2pm in the afternoon!
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on November 04, 2015, 01:11:46 PM
I must admit that I've been lucky. I know I've always spotted others before they see me. (Well at least tat's my perception)  It's amazing how ones senses are heightened when walking without clothes. I have to admit that I restrict my naked walks to open countryside so I can usually spot if anyone else is about from some distance.

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: balead on November 04, 2015, 06:36:07 PM
Yes Davie, that is the safest way, much better than a public wood etc in that respect, especially in the middle of the day.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on November 04, 2015, 08:54:55 PM
The most embarrassing thing about the encounter for me was when I realized that despite my greeting, it was well gone 2pm in the afternoon!

I would view that as a indicator of how confident and comfortable you are walking naked. You were more concerned with their perception of your failure to remember the time of day as opposed to your failure to wear clothes.

That's a good thing.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 04, 2015, 10:43:28 PM
Uh oh. An older guy wandering around in the countryside, having forgotten his clothes, and doesn't have any sense of time, seemingly unaware of his predicament! Call the authorities! He is probably lost, wandered off from the Alzheimer care home. His loved ones will be worried. "Hey, old fella, we're your friends. Can you tell us what day it is?" :)

This ain't the sixties no more and we're not so young to assume and snicker, "Won't he be surprised when he comes down off of that stuff." ::)
Jbeeeeee

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: balead on November 05, 2015, 12:33:23 PM
That's a good thing.

Yes Duane, I suppose it is.

Ha ha Jbee, at least, as far as I know, they didn't call the authorites.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on November 05, 2015, 11:49:57 PM
I've always spotted others before they see me. (Well at least tat's my perception)

So we're out naked and see someone coming, so slip behind a tree so the textile doesn't see us. But who's to say we haven't been spotted by a textile who's hidden behind a tree to avoid meeting us? It's like having a high fence so the neighbours can't see us naked in the garden, but then of course we can't see them naked in their garden, and we carry on in ignorance of our shared lifestyles. Funny creatures, people...

Peter
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on November 06, 2015, 08:32:32 PM
I've always spotted others before they see me. (Well at least tat's my perception)

So we're out naked and see someone coming, so slip behind a tree so the textile doesn't see us. But who's to say we haven't been spotted by a textile who's hidden behind a tree to avoid meeting us? It's like having a high fence so the neighbours can't see us naked in the garden, but then of course we can't see them naked in their garden, and we carry on in ignorance of our shared lifestyles. Funny creatures, people...

Peter


I agree Peter.  As long as we are hiding we are alone and lonely.   I learned long ago that being seen naked tells the world that I'm not ashamed of myself.  My choice of my own body as my outside is not embarrassing to me.  I don't apologize or hide.  Let them see.  Nudity will never be acceptable in public until and unless nudists stop hiding and demand a right to be naked.  Its all good.

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on November 10, 2015, 01:52:45 AM
Quote
My choice of my own body as my outside is not embarrassing to me.
Beautifully put, Bob.  I shall remember that way of expression when I describe my preference to others.

John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on November 10, 2015, 01:47:06 PM
The problem with hiding is if you are sen darting off to hide that implies you perceive you are doing something wrong.

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on November 10, 2015, 06:13:34 PM
Social media can be a pain sometime with all the drama. Personally I just follow friends and relatives to keep up with their families and keep in touch. I won't go into the rest of the left/right, conservative/liberal, NRA/no guns, Christian values, dump the incumbents, deport them all and the rest of the rants! But at least once a week there comes a post the reads something like, "I've reached that age where I don't care what anyone thinks!". That has become my mantra and depending on the circumstances, have taken to not covering. However, I will admit avoidance of high risk areas and have a cover just in case someone in authority gives me the dress or jail ultimatum. My few encounters have been detailed on other sites as well as here and there has not been a truly negative one yet.   
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on November 11, 2015, 05:28:27 PM
I had to relate this story from last night without quite knowing where to put it. The misses is beginning to assemble her Christmas cards so she wanted some photos to send to friends and relatives. So using the Snapfish application on the computer to order prints we were given a number of options for delivery including store pickup. So, to show support although it was a bit more of a drive I chose the Walgreen pharmacy in the next town. The surprise was the fact I got notification the prints were ready a few hours later.

Now the misses was excited about having the pictures and so I braved the dark, misty night and drove to pick them up. The store staff was friendly so when I went to pay I was asked if I had a Walgreens shopping card?  "No", I replied then the clerk went into the benefits of having one. So when I gave her my information she asked why I had driven to her store. I answered "Because of your TV commercial that shows two mature women at a nude beach. The body positive message is fantastic". She smiled and said, "that's nice to hear' as she processed the sale. As she handed me the bag she asked, "Have you ever been to a nude beach? With all those pretty girls?". I told her "Yes, but we were all normal with beer bellies, sagging and cellulite. It's about comfort not showing off". She laughed and said "Then I'd fit in?". I assured her everyone could fit in if they would only give it a chance.  Maybe a seed planted?
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on November 11, 2015, 05:57:44 PM
Good for you for supporting Walgreen's nude beach promotion.   At the start of the post I was wondering if you were having nude photos printed at Walgreens. 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on November 11, 2015, 09:55:59 PM
Nudewalker - That was one of the happiest and most uplifting post I have seen for ages.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on November 12, 2015, 03:26:34 PM
Thanks for the words  of encouragement Bob and John. I had no idea when I went in the store that the commercial would come up in conversation but it made an excellent starting point. And I never expected the conversation to go any farther than it did but think that there was some deep seeded thoughts on the part of the clerk. We will have to see if anything transpires on the next visit. Too bad my prescription plan is through CVS but I plan on taking more of my business there.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on November 17, 2015, 04:07:35 PM
During our visit to Ohio late last month some of the locals would say "If you don't like the weather wait ten minutes for it to change".  Once again we were blessed with some of near Indian summer once again so I headed to a local trail to enjoy the out of doors. Much like I have said earlier if you get to the park between late morning and leave before three in the afternoon you can have the place to yourself. After finishing my walk yesterday I just pulled on a shirt and climbed into the vehicle. About a mile down the road a woman was approaching me on horseback and frantically waved for me to stop. Not having any cover close by I hoped that the angles would provide cover. She was asking directions to the main parking lot where she had parked her horse trailer. Giving directions the West Virginian way (turn right at the picnic grove, left near the bridge) she smiled, thanked me and rode off. When I got into the garage I used the laser pointed and determined that with her vantage point on the horse she could see I was naked from the waist down. Well, I guess  she has stories to tell.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 17, 2015, 07:33:10 PM
There are often teen girls and younger kids on the horses in my neighborhood. They are the ones draped with some of the greatest potential legal problems. I have to slow to a snails pace, giving them space. If I were to spook the horse, it could be catastrophic. I need to be courteous as to not leave my neighbors in a cloud of dust. They sit at about the perfect height for observation, like a diesel truck driver.

I'll always remember that time, when being driven back by a friend from Ironwood National Monument, after everything had been locked away from me in my distracted girlfriend's van. I sat there feeling helpless to cover up in a low pickup truck. Coincidentally every girl in the area came riding in a group down the road. What an incredible convergence of synchronicity that was. I have never seen that in 20 years since. I have never been so helplessly exposed since. The odds were like being hit by lightning or worse. I always keep something to drop on my crotch, when carnuding.

One day, DF and I drove the 200 feet to the community dumpster for her house rather than carry multiple loads. I decided to just slip on a pair of bikini underwear for the trip. It would look like a Speedo at most any distance. It happened that some guy walked up at the time and began to help us after dumping his bin. He looked at me obviously surprised to find me in my underwear. What kind of Murphy's Law does these things? What is it about drawing some unconscious energy together to create phenomenon that is way against the odds? I don't know, so I carry a cover-up.
Jbee

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on November 18, 2015, 03:47:19 PM
Murphy's Law? Perfect storm? Against all odds? Who knows? Sometime tempting fate in the name of comfort after an hour or so of freewalking and not wanting to be restrained? The running kilt was on the back seat and I felt quite safe. The frantic waves brought out the good Samaritan in me. At least there were no police stops on the way home and we both have stories. Just to add, I have to go to Walgreens later. Wonder if there will be another encounter with the same clerk?
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on November 18, 2015, 08:09:40 PM
When I 1st started naked hiking I was out on a hike and headed back to my vehicle after a great hike up on a small mountain. The trail headed back to the highway where my truck was parked on a turnout. On this day I had decided and braced myself to walk all the way to the truck without getting dressed. Being a newbie at naked activities outdoors I was in a state of subdued panic and wondering exactly where I would rank on the stupid scale for trying this.

The trail approaches the road on an elevated area about 4-6 ft. above the pavement. From the point where you commit to the trail to the truck was about 250 yds. If you are in a car and passing by the trailhead, at one point anyone walking on the trail is clearly visible for about 100 yds. Desert plant life offers no place to hide.

I paused before heading out to listen for oncoming traffic. From the east I could see clearly that no one was coming. From the west, I had no clue. I was trying to tell the difference between wind noise and road noise.

I made the walk all the way to the car with no one passing by. RELIEF! After forcing myself to move at a normal pace and getting back into my truck I was safe! Not so, my pretty!

I almost jumped out my skin, as that was all I was wearing, when a pickup truck, with a couple that were out sightseeing, stopped on the passenger side window and asked me where to find water. I was so focused on the fact I had made it to the truck unseen that I had not looked in my mirrors to see if anything was coming. Have you ever been in a situation where nothing happening around you makes sense? Water? What? Where? Water, you're in a desert dude.

My daypack was beside me and my shirt was laying on top of it and I was sitting on my shorts, using them as substitute for a towel. Did they notice I was naked? No, clue. Probably. Whatever I said to them must have been annoying as he took off, leaving a small dusting of rubber particulates on the road. I think they were tourists looking for a place to buy bottled water. Had I been more calm I might have figured that out and been more helpful.

There are places out there where you can buy bottled water but my mind was blank.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 18, 2015, 10:13:48 PM
Could he have thought that you were alone, in your truck, naked, in a state of heighten arousal and slightly dazed because you had pulled off for a quick wank? It wouldn't be that far for him to imaging an erection on the other side of the door panel.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on November 19, 2015, 12:48:17 AM
......You used the W word, jbee*!!!!!!!!
I can't recall it being used in all my years of SN conversation.
Mind you I have advanced my education in that I now know the expression is the same both sides of the pond!

John

PS *Well done! :D
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 19, 2015, 07:21:12 PM
As I recollect, it was used once at TSNS.

I don't want to mislead. The word is probably not used on this side. I suspect that most people would recognize it, but as a British term. The topic is rarely brought up. I used it just because the formal term sounded...too formal. Using one of the two "J" words seemed, at the time, too crass, but I wanted to use something that fit the image that would be suspected. Here, it is most often expressed as just a hand motion for someone who wastes time, energy or is in an illusion. After that, the derogatory "jerk" has been completely disassociated from the original use. If you had a perfect imitation of any American accent, and you used W properly, people would probably turn to each other and say, "Who's the English dude?"

There have been two instants at the parking area of Redington Pass, when I have bumped into a guy diddling, or playing with and I didn't appreciate it. While I advocate free range nudity, body freedom and naturist activities, public sex is my line to be drawn. Public affection is okay with me and I grew up in a world where that just didn't happen, tsk tsk, OMG. I don't want to see it. It disrupts the process of acceptance of the rest of body liberation. It is what the laws are about.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on November 22, 2015, 12:43:46 AM
That's an interesting conundrum, jbee.  What is the 'point of shear' of open minded tolerance?  I tend to agree with you in respect of drawing the line at public sex.  This is because, as you observe, it gets in the way of public acceptance of the choice of nudity.  For myself, if I were at a public, naked tolerant place e.g. Reddington or AHG and came across someone wanking (there! I've used the word myself now. How liberating!) or people engaging in sexual activity, my tendency would be to toleration and recognising their freedoms.  Live & let live if it does no real harm.  However I would be concerned that others may be offended, even fellow naturists, by the imposition of public sight of what many think is a private activity.  I would favour recommending restraint therefore in the interests of maintaining a happy and unconcerned environment which could not be criticised for tolerating antisocial standards.  Of course I recognise that censure of some in the interests of harmony of the majority is hegemonic and really the answer is changing the majority to be more tolerant.  But then that doesn't seem like a practical or pragmatic way forward.

The naturist case, it's PR and the vehement insistence from most naturists is that it is not a sexual thing in any way.  This I would tend to side with.  I personally have found naturism to be something other than a sexual thing.  However, I read an article recently from the Telegraph, I think, reproduced in one of the Flipboard naturist magazines that took the position that really this non-sexual position of naturists is a bit overly purist and there mainly to help them gain acceptance in ssociety.  'Come on, pull the other one' it said.  Sex and nudity were linked, sex and the rest of life are intertwined and so why not admit sex into the life of naturism in the same proportion and stop denying normal sexual content in naturism.  A reasonable position I felt.  However, what the article leaves out is that perhaps naturism is an activity which is not in fact sexually connected any more than shopping, sport or gardening.  Naturism is a type of recreational and life choice that does, as the article asserted, pervade a wide range of activity.  So sex need not appear in it any more than in the above activity.  So a wanker amongst naked hikers is no more relevant or welcome than a wanker in the supermarket or the football pitch.  A proper place for everything and everything in it's proper place is the obvious conclusion.

Thinking about it, and muddying the waters of the above clarity (sort of!), I'd feel more tolerant of a wanker or people having it off in when in a naturist enviroment than when in the above mentioned textile contexts.  But I don't know why I feel like that but I do; yet, as I have said above, public demonstration of sex activity is not tolerable in the wrong context.

John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 23, 2015, 06:24:55 PM
Where to draw that line? I think I know how. Sex is on the minds of most all, much of the time. Thoughts come and go. There is generally healthily not much egoic control of them. Thinking can be disassociated from action.
How one dresses is not so much an activity. One can do about any activity dressed in about any fashion. Nudity is a style of dress. Sports, dance, work, or sex are activities that can have nothing to do with dress. Sex does not require nudity, any more than any other activity requires nudity. It is just a choice of dress, basically. It is simple nudity. Therefore nudity isn't about sex anymore than any other dress form.

Nudity can be disassociated from sex, or visa versa. To say that sex doesn't occur at all to a nudist is kinda silly. Thought happens. From my own experience and other's writings and comments, most people often tend to have wandering eyes at first in a socially nude situation, after coming from a textile world, but this drops away quickly. We will check each other out from time to time, and often be done with that quickly, apparently quicker than with clothes on. Thoughts happen, no matter what is worn.

A guy wanking, especially fantasizing focused about others, in public, brings others into his her sex. I like to say no to sex, or decide to participate. If someone is getting off, or trying to get me excited, it seems reasonable that I can avoid this manipulation and say no to the imposition. If someone imposed himself on DF, he may get his ass kicked, or interrupted in some uncomfortable way. These guys sitting in cars, not so discrete, or trying to be discrete but not succeeding, I try to ignore, or act as if I don't know, so as to not embarrass them. Maybe I should tell them that it is obvious. Maybe they don't know in their frenzied state of mind. It is extremely rare and I have better things to do than to interact with them.

Public sex is in the realm of public exhibitionism. Maybe it isn't such a weird thing, maybe it is, but it isn't synonymous with casual nudity. Sexual liberation, I suppose is for another forum. Body freedom, I believe is the matter, here.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on November 24, 2015, 04:39:36 PM
I must say you guys have given me a lot of food for thought. If we are honest with ourselves most of fashion is designed to attract the attention of the opposite sex. Sunday night was spent switching between the football game (66F at kickoff in Phoenix) and the music awards show. In both cases between the cheerleaders that get shown every commercial break and the presenters and performers at the music awards showing skin. Much the same as at the beach during spring break; the bathing suits are made to entice and attract and I doubt if total nudity would be any more tempting.

From your comments Jbee the mention of others writings brings me to a nudist beach in New Jersey. They have their own forum and have named the so called perverts that frequent the beach and harass mostly single women. Descriptions have been provided so that the regulars know who they are and can harass them back. Which is a case of those who frequent the beach making sure it is a safe place for all. Last winter, I talked to some people that are trying to get a portion of Fort Desoto near Tampa designated as clothing optional. One of the biggest arguments they ace is the perception that people will be having sex on the beach. That and what about the kids is thrown up to them all the time.

Nuduke mentioned the nudity/sex link as written in the Telegraph. It's sounds like one of those articles that was wrote as letting people hear what they want to hear. Much like the far mongering that has been part of our media since the Paris bombings, se I told you and lets go get the bastards. Easy to say from the comfort of being behind a TV camera or a keyboard.

I remember the days of "free love" with the idea that if your attracted and want to get it on it's normal human response and go for it. Who knows when the term "get a room" came into being, perhaps as an answer or all those things came with my maturity level. But I think what we are dealing with is the idea of a little bit of being a deviant. Much like the early days of my naked hiking part of the excitement was the idea you might be caught. Perhaps the same goes here; as maybe part exhibitionism, part idea that one might get caught. I do agree with Jbee as I have much more to do than interact with those people and to be honest have never had such an encounter. Or maybe I have just not paid attention?

Sexual liberation is best left to another forum and maybe I should see what the thinking is there. As body freedom is and should be the focus here my attention would be to protect the areas that nudity is accepted. Much like those who have banded together to protect the nude venue at Gunnison's Beach.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on November 24, 2015, 05:39:33 PM
Public sex is in the realm of public exhibitionism. Maybe it isn't such a weird thing, maybe it is, but it isn't synonymous with casual nudity. Sexual liberation, I suppose is for another forum. Body freedom, I believe is the matter, here.
Jbee


Modern culture is dominated by large monotheistic religions that include asceticism and the notion that bodies are sinful.  The big religions object on religious grounds to human bodies and include everything from natural body functions to the sight of human bodies.  Monotheistic asceticism has gone on since Moses railed against the Hebrews who worshiped a golden calf and engaged in all manner of lascivious (body) pleasure.  The notion that "bodies are filth," made of the filth of the earth rather than "heavenly" is as old as the big Abrahamic religions. 

This is in contrast to the culture of Imperial Rome where "baths" were an important part of their cities wherever they went.  Roman baths were public toilets, swimming pools, washing places, and usually had slaves to provide sexual enjoyment.  Public toilets were arranged in open conversational groupings so you could chat with others while you shit.  Washing, feeling, sex, all body pleasures were welcome in Rome, and hated by Christians.

In the nudist world today they accept the sight of bodies, but don't you dare be seen doing any natural body function (other than eating).   Even at nudist resorts bodies are divided between male and female, and then in the uni-sex room the toilets are usually hidden behind cubicle partitions.  OMG, what if we are seen taking a shit, as if everyone else doesn't do it every day.  Your back side is "filth," and you better put a towel under yourself even if  you just came out of the hot tub.   "What about the children?"  Body freedom to me means bodies are acceptable and that includes body functions and body pleasures. 

Humans are starved for the sight of other humans.   Its not accidental that porn is said to be about half of all Internet use, and women dominate porn viewing in heavily populated Asian countries.  People starve for the sight of other humans, our own species, doing our own behavior. 

Nudity isn't explicitly sexual but people are sexual, all people are sexual, and all people enjoy seeing other people being sexual.  Skimpy outfits are intended to display sexuality and attract attention even more than naked bodies.  We need to get over ourselves, to accept ourselves, and to stop pretending that we, or "they," are offended by the sight of our own species.   

Bob

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on November 24, 2015, 06:58:50 PM
I suspect that what lays behind most of this are the beliefs and urges that most of us rely on, i.e.;

We are civilized (not animals), therefore we don't behave like them, and
We are in control, therefore we can't allow anyone or thing imply we aren't.

Both beliefs are chock full of bad ideas and convoluted reasoning that involve more than unwanted public behavior.

I do believe that we should try our best to be civilized and try to control our, sometimes irrational urges, and not have to rely on dogmatic rhetoric.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on November 24, 2015, 08:44:04 PM
Quote from: jbee
Sex is on the minds of most all, much of the time
Speak for yourself!...and me!
Quote from: jbee
Sex does not require nudity
However, it might need a couple of strategically placed holes in the clothing! :)
Quote from: jbee
Nudity can be disassociated from sex, or visa versa. To say that sex doesn't occur at all to a nudist is kinda silly
Hear hear.  That was the main thrust of the article I read.  It wasn't knocking nudists it was just recognising that they do have some views, beliefs and strictures, (e.g. nudism isn't sexual) that are equally irrational, arising from the need to preserve their freedoms to be nude.
Quote from: jbee
Sexual liberation, I suppose is for another forum. Body freedom, I believe is the matter, here
  Indeed.  A very important distinction, jbee, aptly placed.
I also very much agree with Bob that our views, taboos and preferences (i.e. the ones of this group of predominantly white, males 50-70 yrs old) are coloured, whether we like it or not, by the infusion of the taboos and censures of the abrahamic religions that were the norm of our formative years.  But eschew them as we might today, societies are still very infused with the content and redaction of the biblical rules and so our behaviour is still tempered by those scriptures if only to guide us how to act to avoid the wrath of the conventional majority that act on the learned rules of society and rarely think for themselves on fundamental matters; and so equate nudity with sin.

Quote from: eyesup
Both beliefs are chock full of bad ideas and convoluted reasoning that involve more than unwanted public behavior.
I do believe that we should try our best to be civilized and try to control our, sometimes irrational urges, and not have to rely on dogmatic rhetoric
Again, I vote in support!  Yet consider:  Duane wants to control his irrational urges.  But who defines the rational from which his urges might stray?  That conventional society that draws it's rules from the ancient books of religion.

Gosh it really makes one think that we should start all over again!  Where can we find people that are a tabula rasa upon which a new experiment in morals and ethics, societal behaviour towards one another and the reforging of convention could take place?  I guess we can't - without risking being branded as trying to create some sort of Hitlerian, Mansonite, Stalinist dystopian society.  I do wonder how a group of people raised with no preconceptions and no outside contact would turn out.  I guess the parralels lie in those tribes that arose and lived in isolation in isolated areas e.g. Inuit, Polynesian Island dwellers and peoples of South American jungles etc.  They ended up with societies not so different from our own - people on balance got on with eachother but fought eachother, stole from eachother, shared with eachother, entertained, argued etc etc in very recognisable ways.  ...

...and maybe the tenets of Abrahamic religions are not so bad in terms of general society.  We tend to think about out small sector of naturist humanity where the old rules are not fit for purpose. But maybe they do more good than ill on balance and therefore fall into the 'aint broke don't fix' category.  I'm not supporting convention or status quo, just pointing out that we need to take a balanced view of our preferences amongst all the preferences that can exist! 

John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 24, 2015, 11:26:37 PM
Lord knows that I questioned everything and experimented during the late sixties and seventies sexual revolution. There was fortunately plenty tuned in to the same social revolution. I discovered the free love ideals didn't jive well with the monogamous. So, I personally decided to abandoned it for the latter. I found something more fulfilling than casual sex. Most people need some degree of emotional bond to have effective sex, some don't. For some it is objectification of another human.

The Jewish religions are pretty practical. For example pork used to go bad and kill people. No pork, no trichinosis. There is a drive to preserve ones genetic material and hence family. Knowledge of "like begetting like" goes way back. These thing were practical, social order and pretty basic until certain rulers got a hold of the reigns of our Abrahamic offshoots and got carried away.

With these two things in mind, I found myself finding less value in unbridled purely sexual expressions. I've never been a fan of hardcore porn. It lacks humanity, feeling and I don't care to watch someone else doing it instead of myself. There is little stimulation.

My "pendulum" freely swung from one side to the other, but eventually arrived somewhere in the middle, wrapped in heart, a natural state. I'm not in agreement with stoning, or institutional slavery and role mandates.

My experience also tells me that mere nudity has less to do with sex than strategic coverings. That is unless one is coming from the repressed oppressed sick society that we live in.

Simply put, nude good, period.
Please, (I'm praying or pleading to "them" here) keep those filthy societal mitts off of my body, trying to make it something that it is not.

Wow, all I did was write the word "wank" and look what happened!
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on November 25, 2015, 05:53:09 AM

We are civilized (not animals), therefore we don't behave like them, and
We are in control, therefore we can't allow anyone or thing imply we aren't.
Duane

Well, the concept of "Civilized" comes from Imperial Rome and meant acting like people from the City, from Rome.  That was in contrast to "Villains" who lived in country villas.  Civilized Romans wouldn't think of spending a day without visiting the (nude) bath and enjoying body pleasures, then perhaps going to the Coliseum to watch criminals being eaten by lions or some other violence.  The concept that "civilized" equates to "prude" is a later Christian overlay from the declining years of Civil society. 

We may not be animals (questionable) but why does that mean we have to give up enjoying our lives.

Quote from: jbee
Quote
    Sex is on the minds of most all, much of the time

Some shrinks have concluded that men think about sex every 5 or 6 minutes (except during football).   And women more often than men. 

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 25, 2015, 07:30:03 AM

Quote from: jbee
Quote
    Sex is on the minds of most all, much of the time

Some shrinks have concluded that men think about sex every 5 or 6 minutes (except during football).   And women more often than men. 

Bob
The stats I read were every 5 or 6 seconds. That would be true for me when I was twenty. I'd like to have sex every five or six minutes, what a wonderful way to die.  ;D Women more often than men! Hmmm, that is hard to swallow.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on November 25, 2015, 04:13:06 PM

Quote from: jbee
Quote
    Sex is on the minds of most all, much of the time

Some shrinks have concluded that men think about sex every 5 or 6 minutes (except during football).   And women more often than men. 

Bob

I'm sure they mean American football and not the variety played overseas. Besides all the commercial breaks during football games selling ED drugs along with all the other "sex sells" ads I'm sure it's more than 5-6 minutes. Women more often than men? I'm sure there could be times as their cycle goes as I remember discussing erotic dreams with a girl I dated in college. It seems as our sexual encounters increased her dreams became more vivid while with the release mine dropped off. Sure there is a study somewhere.
The stats I read were every 5 or 6 seconds. That would be true for me when I was twenty. I'd like to have sex every five or six minutes, what a wonderful way to die.  ;D Women more often than men! Hmmm, that is hard to swallow.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on December 01, 2015, 09:58:04 PM
Quote from: nuduke
But who defines the rational from which his urges might stray?
Me, using my faith, my heritage and the laws of my country.

Actually, rational and irrational are tied up with the state of the civilization you are in. A civilization being a culture, or cultures, that define what is in it's best interest and then propagating those ideas into the future by maintaining a continuity of knowledge.

Culture is a beast of a different color. A great many things go into that definition. How robust a civilization is can be measured by how many different cultures can coexist.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on December 02, 2015, 01:06:00 AM
Quote from: jbee
Wow, all I did was write the word "wank" and look what happened!
What happened?  We had a jolly good section of debate and comment about some pretty deep stuff.  Enjoyed it thoroughly.
You don't have to stop using the word wank, jbee - it's fine.  The nub of my comments (in hindsght!) was that we have avoided such modes of expression in the past probably because of the need not to attract censure and I guess we won't stop, just that it's important to know mutually that we understand that that self censorship is happening.  And to those who would dare to be censorious....Wankwankwankwankwankwankwankwankwankwank to you all!  Freedom for skin and for thought, say I! :)

John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on December 02, 2015, 07:38:51 PM
Quote from: nuduke
. . . we understand that that self censorship is happening.

That's the only kind allowed.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on December 04, 2015, 04:49:31 PM
Back to Walgreens yesterday to pick up a few sale items for the misses. Although I've been back a few times it's the first with the clerk I encountered the first time. After the usual greeting and checkout she said' Maybe we can talk sometime after the Christmas rush is over?". I said I'll try but we're going to snowbird in Florida after the holidays. She smiled and said come back and see me then. The conversation may have taken a different turn had a line not formed behind me. Maybe I need business cards printed up? With e-mail and links? Just a thought.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on December 04, 2015, 06:39:44 PM
Maybe I need business cards printed up? With e-mail and links? Just a thought.

If Wallgreens has a bulletin board it would be a good time to post nudist cards of fliers on their board.   However, probably only the "new age" stores have public boards.

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on December 05, 2015, 11:42:24 PM
... Maybe I need business cards printed up? With e-mail and links? Just a thought.

I was meeting so many people at gatherings and so forth (at least I convinced myself that I was) that I did print up some "business cards". You can get the material at a stationery store and print them yourself, if you can do a tolerable layout job, so there's no need to invest in a box of them. Here's mine, although I'm squeamish about putting my full name and address here, so I've "anonymized" it:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28291527/Naturism/bcrqn.jpg)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: midnightrider on December 06, 2015, 09:06:22 AM
Anonymized or not, I like the address   ;D
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on December 06, 2015, 02:30:27 PM
Yes John P, it's just what I was thinking. I may have to check in stationary stores for the supplies you mentioned as I can't justify printing of cards. Also, it would be nice to have a page like Jbee and DF's to refer people to but that will take some time and education on my part. As much as you were squeamish about your name and address I'm treading lightly on this one as there is no need to start trouble in paradise.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on December 06, 2015, 05:21:45 PM
How about referring them to here? The card says, "Nudewalker."

Address, this is an address? Can you be reached here? Yes. Or over at "Hiking Naked." You have PM's and the works.
You could spread them around Florida first, to see how you feel about it.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on December 07, 2015, 01:24:10 AM
Yes John P, it's just what I was thinking. I may have to check in stationary stores for the supplies you mentioned as I can't justify printing of cards. Also, it would be nice to have a page like Jbee and DF's to refer people to but that will take some time and education on my part. As much as you were squeamish about your name and address I'm treading lightly on this one as there is no need to start trouble in paradise.

You want to find stuff like this:
http://www.staples.com/Avery-Clean-Edge-Two-side-Printable-Color-Laser-Business-Cards/product_SS994855

I must have been going through a phase when I designed the business card. I set up a naturist page at the same time, and in fact the old address for it is shown on the card and I didn't change it when I showed the card here. I'd have let anyone have the address of the page, but Sitemouse, the company that hosted it on free web space (a magnificent 3 megabytes) suddenly went out of business earlier this year, and I've moved the material to Dropbox.

I thought I'd listed the web page in my profile on Freerangenaturism, but it seems that it isn't accessible via a person's profile. What you have to look for is a little symbol that appears under the user's avatar; it resembles a globe, though I can't tell for sure if that's what it is. I have that symbol, and Midnightrider does too, but clicking it under his avatar only leads you to a page that says there isn't a naturist page (not very useful, that).  Jbeegoode is the real champion here! My page definitely exists, though I have to admit that I don't update it nearly as often as I should.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on December 07, 2015, 03:24:28 PM
Ok, you guys have got me to thinking and I'm sure the smoke can bee seen from your neck of the woods. I have mentioned the hiking naked site before to some people but never saw where they actually joined. I hope they at least looked at it once or twice but perhaps with a card for reference it will at least insure they get to the right place. If there were not so much holiday preparation to be done it would be a nice addition to have when we get to Florida but then it can be done there.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on December 08, 2015, 06:19:12 AM
I'm not so sure that sending people to Hikingnaked.com (if that's the site you meant) is a good idea. The first thing a person sees there is Rule 1: You must be 18 or older to use the Hiking Naked Message Boards. No Exceptions! For your safety and the protection of young people, if you find anyone that is, or appears to be, younger than 18, contact the system administrator immediately. I can imagine someone who's new to naturism thinking "So this outdoor naturism business is for adults only, eh? Must be some pretty naughty stuff."

It's kind of a bugaboo of mine that we absolutely must not present naturism as being unfit for young people. Personally I won't participate on a website that excludes them--not that I expect large numbers to be interested! But I see it as very important. When I joined Freerangenaturism I posted an intro message saying I hadn't been in Secret Naturists, and I'm pretty sure (I knew of the place, but I can't entirely remember why I didn't join) that it was because they had an adults-only policy. Adults, you know, because it's all about "adult" topics.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on December 08, 2015, 03:08:49 PM
I understand what you mean by the "under 18" policy but my inclination is it is more of a disclaimer to satisfy the forum hosting people. After all if there are photos of naked people hiking some would see it as an adult material. Unlike the sexualized material discussed elsewhere on this forum. Plus as my interests have grown so have my naked activities which would include kayaking. In the instance that I'm discussing at this point the conversation started with nude beaches and will have to move to skinny dipping as there are no nude beaches nearby. It's still in the infant stage and there is time to refine things.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on December 08, 2015, 05:56:55 PM
It's kind of a bugaboo of mine that we absolutely must not present naturism as being unfit for young people. Personally I won't participate on a website that excludes them--not that I expect large numbers to be interested!

I agree completely.   The whole "for the children" excuse uses children as an excuse for the adult's perverted shame of  his or her own body.   Children learn from watching and benefit from seeing a wide variety of their own species engaged in all kinds of normal human behavior.   Depriving children of an opportunity to observe others and learn about their own species is harmful and abusive to children.

Many web sites are afraid of perverted US laws which make possession of images of children into a "crime" with a horrific punishment.  Sadistic police sometimes troll web sites pretending to be children and posting or sharing computer generated images (no real children involved) and then aggressively persecuting the owners of the host computers.  Its another evil police state crime against the people and the children.

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on December 08, 2015, 06:24:53 PM
Some naturist websites state right up front that they are family friendly. No questions, no doubts. I am sure that they police the forums specifically to ensure no discussions cross over into abusive language. That's no different than requiring an ID to purchase alcohol.

There are pedophiles and other predators out there. Some police tactics do cross the line. You cannot paint everyone with a broad brush. There should be a more discriminating skill in determining whether someone is a child predator. Those people should be dealt with swiftly.

Unfortunately too many jurisdictions are cash strapped to make significant progress between all the deadly and merely harmful activities they have to deal with. Unfortunately we wander about in a cultural grey area where the details are not easily seen.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on December 08, 2015, 09:43:52 PM
Quote from: nudewalker
I may have to check in stationary stores

Yup! Good plan, fella! It's really hard to catch those moving stores! :lol: :D

John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on December 08, 2015, 10:36:31 PM
Many web sites are afraid of perverted US laws which make possession of images of children into a "crime" with a horrific punishment.  Sadistic police sometimes troll web sites pretending to be children and posting or sharing computer generated images (no real children involved) and then aggressively persecuting the owners of the host computers.  Its another evil police state crime against the people and the children.

Actually not "perverted" laws but "purported" laws--when people claim that imaginary things exist. Nudity is not legally obscene and there's a legal history to prove it. We need to be 100% aware of this so that we don't allow our rights to be lost through fear.

However, that's not the main issue. Even sites which have few or no images still forbid young people from participating, and I think it's a terrible way for naturists to behave. Or if the website actually is about sex, then they shouldn't be claiming that it's about naturism, which is terrible in a different way! If there's some reason to go against our beliefs (using a censored image to illustrate some point or other would be another example) then there ought to be an explanation.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on December 10, 2015, 05:01:03 PM
Many web sites are afraid of perverted US laws which make possession of images of children into a "crime" with a horrific punishment.  Sadistic police sometimes troll web sites pretending to be children and posting or sharing computer generated images (no real children involved) and then aggressively persecuting the owners of the host computers.  Its another evil police state crime against the people and the children.

Actually not "perverted" laws but "purported" laws--when people claim that imaginary things exist. Nudity is not legally obscene and there's a legal history to prove it. We need to be 100% aware of this so that we don't allow our rights to be lost through fear.

However, that's not the main issue. Even sites which have few or no images still forbid young people from participating, and I think it's a terrible way for naturists to behave. Or if the website actually is about sex, then they shouldn't be claiming that it's about naturism, which is terrible in a different way! If there's some reason to go against our beliefs (using a censored image to illustrate some point or other would be another example) then there ought to be an explanation.

Much like some Christian preachers pick through the Bible to find sins that are not there. I find it funny how these people come out of the woodwork whenever anything related to nudity is in the news. For example; the few times there was ever a discussion on the local level of making a nude beach legal. I'm surprised that they are not telling their followers not to let teens have cell phones for they might send nude pictures. Or maybe they are and I don't know it. The "moral majority" that is actually the "vocal minority"!
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on December 10, 2015, 06:08:33 PM
Much like some Christian preachers pick through the Bible to find sins that are not there. I find it funny how these people come out of the woodwork whenever anything related to nudity is in the news. For example; the few times there was ever a discussion on the local level of making a nude beach legal. I'm surprised that they are not telling their followers not to let teens have cell phones for they might send nude pictures. Or maybe they are and I don't know it. The "moral majority" that is actually the "vocal minority"!


There is too much MONEY in cell phones for the media to listen to preachers objections.   There is no MONEY allowing people to avoid buying clothing at the beach or anywhere else.   In the end its all about the money.

Bob


Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on December 11, 2015, 03:35:29 PM


There is too much MONEY in cell phones for the media to listen to preachers objections.   There is no MONEY allowing people to avoid buying clothing at the beach or anywhere else.   In the end its all about the money.

Bob



[/quote]

Amen brother! It is, has been and always will be about the money. Although my research (asking my teenage niece) has revealed that some fundamental preachers in town have warned parents of the evils of cell phones very few teens are without. At one time I did research on the economics of the bathing suit market and it was astounding. Which brings me to another point; the economic impact that nude beaches have on tourism. Why haven't more local governments jumped on this cash cow? Ah, I forgot the "vocal minority".
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on December 13, 2015, 11:06:42 PM
Quote from: Bob
There is no MONEY allowing people to avoid buying clothing at the beach or anywhere else.   In the end its all about the money.

Now THERE is a fascinating thing to speculate.  What if naturism/nudism required loads of expensive specialist equipment like golf, camping, climbing, fishing or cycling, for instance.  If being naked was an occupation which needed national chains of equipment suppliers and achieved a multi-$billion revenue?  Naturism/nudism would probably be quite as socially acceptable and sought after by participants as little league, the scouts, the London Marathon or the US Open!!!

Money talks alright and it often shouts down political, religious, legal and social voices.  But naturism in nature costs little, needs little (although jbee & df's camping kit may be an exception!!) and says little.  So it gets little by way of attention and acceptance because no corporations need to support it to profit from it.

Discuss....

John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on December 14, 2015, 09:15:21 AM
Thee is a side effect of naturism being effectively free of charge and that is a reluctance of naturists to pay the going rate for any naturist facilities that do exist.
An example of this is the number of complaints from naturists about the high cost of Clover Spa Hotel when it first opened, in spite of the charges being much the same or less than those of comparable textile facilities.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on December 14, 2015, 10:23:17 AM
I think that's true of any group. Every group I belong to moans about what are really sensible prices for what's on offer.

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on December 14, 2015, 05:41:00 PM
REI has a floor just d for clothes. Big 5 sells a camo outfit to every hunter fisher. People spend as much on clothing as equipment obviously. It gets cold out there, and with bugs, I sometimes need clothing. The ultralight stuff can get pricey. Sporting goods are a huge business. By the way Nuduke, I have spent around a thousand dollars through years to have a variety of options from car camping in the bigtop, to ultralight minimalism, that will last many years. I compare what I have experienced and enjoyed to lounging in a resort for a week or less. I bought the 4x4 used. Next year, I'll get into suggesting ultralight backpacking equipment over at my website.

Back to my point, everything is better nude. So, it still fills seats to offer the same trip for nudists as it does textiles. Nudism as recreation IS a billion dollar industry today. The money is there and the impact has seen nude recreation in all aspects, from rafting the Grand Canyon, to hiking, to resorts, cruises, bus tours, airline flights, high end Mira Vista, to condo packages. Miami caught on to the free beach scene. it draws tourists.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on December 15, 2015, 02:37:02 PM
I remember my first trip to an REI store. Managed to get into quite the conversation with one of the sales women about the minimalist idea of hiking naked. If y misses had not shown up I may have been shown the door as the old pervert but she got convinced that what I said was serious and I had spousal approval. As much as the minimal approach speaks volumes to me life is a compromise so to insure wedded bliss the RV will remain the base of free range trips.

Nudism may be a billion dollar industry but in many ways it still can be cost prohibitive. Miami has caught on as has Fort Pierce lately offering a nude beach. It also has been said that which ever Great Lakes state sanctions a nude beach first will reap millions in tourism money. I will not hold my breath waiting for that to happen but will wait and hope.

Speaking of nude beaches; another trip to Walgreens revealed that the store clerk is interested in finding a place to skinny dip and sun nude. We exchanged e-mails and I told her of some places that are reached by kayak or hiking. We'll be in touch next spring.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on March 18, 2016, 10:30:28 AM
I had an interesting encounter this morning while putting the rubbish and recycling out naked.
A car came along from the right while I was opening the gate so I stood close to the right hand pillar as usual so that my nakedness was out of line-of-sight to the driver as they passed.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2804/4519055278_ca5011c23a_t.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2804/4519055278_ca5011c23a_b.jpg)
However the car stopped at my gate and a lady got and out holding a sheet of paper and came over to ask the way to a local farm. Unfortunately she had very little English and it took me some time to get her to understand the simple instructions but eventually she did seem to understand and I was able to finish the job in peace.
There was no problem apart from the language barrier.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on March 18, 2016, 01:52:45 PM
JOhnGw, I am beginning to come to the conclusion that we have been conditioned to think the worst case senerio when any encounters occur when in fact the opposite may occur. With the language barrier she may be from an area where nudity is more acceptable but I will add that most of my most recent encounters have been positive. Just as we try to convince others of the positive aspects of nudity perhaps we need to convince ourselves that not everyone would be disapproving.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on March 18, 2016, 10:38:19 PM
Let's face it, the Lady had Hobson's Choice as to who to ask! :D  But she stuck with the conversation so good for her! :)
John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on April 09, 2016, 01:49:29 AM
DF and I got nailed down trapped up in the Bloody Basin area. We weighed our options and decided to go stealth, then not so, but technically legal, then it just took its own course.

Read about it here: https://thefreerangenaturist.org/2016/04/08/perry-mesa-a-trip-report/
Jbee

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on April 19, 2016, 01:01:12 AM
I was out down my driveway close to the road (maybe 100 feet) when I heard a traffic coming.  I wasn't sure what to do so I decided just to stand there in my driveway and perhaps extend my growing neighborhood reputation as "that naked guy."   

Pretty soon a large white SUV came into view.  The driver saw me and waved.  Waving is friendly country etiquette in these parts.  I waved back.  He drove on.  I continued on and had a nice walk.   Life is good. 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on May 12, 2016, 08:25:39 AM
A friend of 20 years bought the property next to mine as investment recently. Today, I went out to work on the new sauna. I got all the way inside before I noticed my helper talking to someone out side. I had no coverup in my backyard. I looked around the corner and it was the old friend. "Oh, hi Tim. I hope that you don't mind..." as I walked to them holding a work glove over my crotch and confessing nudity.

I explained the sweat, as I dropped glove and continued. I put on pants and we went through his new property discussing privacy, options, concerns and potentials.

Well, we are outed and he knows that when he shows the property that there is potential to see nudes next door.

At one point he asked me if I knew that there were laws about being nude in public, like I might not know. Cute. I briefly explained a reasonable expectation of privacy to him.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on May 12, 2016, 07:31:34 PM
Quote from: Jbee
At one point he asked me if I knew that there were laws about being nude in public, like I might not know. Cute. I briefly explained a reasonable expectation of privacy to him.

He's merely expecting the universe to reflect his philosophy!  :D  What's wrong with that?

Actually, it's probably him just thinking of only the downside of having to explain nudists or naturists next door to a potential buyer. Giving him good talking points to that benefit might get you some new neighbors that are sympatico.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on May 13, 2016, 12:19:33 PM
Did the previous owners of the plot know you were a nudist? These days, in the UK they would have had to disclose the fact to any potential buyer and there would be a case for legal action if it could be shown that they knew and did not disclose the fact.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on May 13, 2016, 04:06:35 PM
Being nude in public is one thing, being nude in a fenced in yard I would assume there is a degree of expectation of privacy. In our search for a new home there is that little space that would provide sunshine and privacy included in the search criteria that is non negotiable. Our new neighbors have a very young one so the elevated playhouse will not come into play at our house for a few years if we do not move.

Did the previous owners of the plot know you were a nudist? These days, in the UK they would have had to disclose the fact to any potential buyer and there would be a case for legal action if it could be shown that they knew and did not disclose the fact. JOhnGw

Our friend across the street was in real estate for a while and I'll have to ask if that would apply here. I know you have to disclose any problems that the house has but I don't know about the neighbors being nudists. So far our lady has not mentioned anything about the neighbors with any house we have seen so far. Maybe if we went for a second look or decided to buy?
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on May 13, 2016, 04:57:16 PM
Would disclosure be necessary to tell a nudist couple about the about the intolerant people next door? Or the neighbors being loud? Things change. The UK take on disclosure sounds biased.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on May 13, 2016, 05:32:26 PM
Quote from: nudewalker
Being nude in public is one thing, being nude in a fenced in yard I would assume there is a degree of expectation of privacy.

Here is an abbreviated version of what I posted in a:
Many state laws, my state included, have this caveat in the nudity statutes. Nudity is ok on private property unless it can be visible to the public.  Dependant on what the definition of public is. A neighbor looking out the window of their 2nd story? A person walking down the street? One person? Two? Twenty? The law doesn't say.

Here you need to do a little research on your municipal laws and make sure you are in compliance.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on May 13, 2016, 11:23:16 PM
Quote from: nudewalker
Being nude in public is one thing, being nude in a fenced in yard I would assume there is a degree of expectation of privacy.

Here is an abbreviated version of what I posted in a:
Many state laws, my state included, have this caveat in the nudity statutes. Nudity is ok on private property unless it can be visible to the public.  Dependant on what the definition of public is. A neighbor looking out the window of their 2nd story? A person walking down the street? One person? Two? Twenty? The law doesn't say.
And they call it the land of the free!
Here you need to do a little research on your municipal laws and make sure you are in compliance.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on May 14, 2016, 02:24:03 AM
Depends on the interpretation of the cop and then the judge. The laws are all nebulous, vague, and misunderstood.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on May 14, 2016, 03:54:57 PM
I rely on previous cases here as it applies to my situation. In both cases they were thrown out of court as the one who complained had gone out of their way to observe the person nude. In one case the judge even admonished a woman as being a "Peeping Tom" for actually walking to the back yard and peeking through the crack between the fence and gate. Her defense was what if a child had looked there? So I can't be too brazen and was concerned when the neighbors built a jungle gym play set for their children. That's when the laser pointer came to be one of my go to devises as it was determined that the only way they could see in was to climb on the roof. Also that is why I'm so particular concerning a new home if and when we ever move.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on May 14, 2016, 10:30:22 PM
Quote
Her defense was what if a child had looked there?
And exactly how much harm can come to children from knowing what people's bodies look like?

On the subject of the topic heading:
I've just come across some video footage of an encounter that I had last summer and had forgotten about. I think it shows quite well the adage that one should carry on with whatever you were doing without batting so much as an eyelid.

This one happened because I had relaxed my usual level of vigilance having ascertained that we were moored far enough away from habitation to be free of towpath walkers at that early hour of a sunday morning. Apart from this one person this was true, and judging by his gait, I think he must have driven there to walk his dogs.

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7166/26935802851_2a8171d556_m.jpg)
Click on the picture for the video (https://vimeo.com/166347926)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on May 15, 2016, 03:09:28 AM
As you described in the 'Taboos' thread, not much, considering that most kids know more than their parents are aware of. It's curious how parents forget what it was like at  that age. It's all about discovery.

If you prepare them for what they are eventually going to discover, there is not a high probability that there will be any harm at all.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on May 15, 2016, 03:46:27 AM
Which makes me wonder JOhnGw, how many others has he encountered along the canals over the years?  As much as I wonder at times who have I passed by on trails that have covered as quickly as I?

Funny Duane, on another forum I read the lament of middle age overweight mothers who feel it is their duty to keep children from being victimized by the sight of the human body. In this day of computers and such I am quite sure much worse has been viewed. But then maybe the parents do remember what it's like at that age so they're over protective?
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: midnightrider on May 15, 2016, 07:48:10 AM
Not much of a reaction from that dog walker John, he just ignored the nude guy trimming his beard. Maybe he didn’t know how to react.  Not even a “good morning” or something  like that.  Yes it could be that he saw other nudist before while walking his dogs, but I don’t think that it would be likely. Personally I think that he was wondering about the reason why you were making the video.  ;)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on May 15, 2016, 01:48:45 PM
Perhaps he was a Mr Bean sketch character. Mr Bean takes so much trouble changing into trunks on a beach then the person sitting nearby picks up his white blind persons stick and wanders off. Perhaps this guy was poorly sighted?

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on May 15, 2016, 06:39:16 PM
And exactly how much harm can come to children from knowing what people's bodies look like?


I have come to the conclusion that children need to learn about themselves, and learn how to function as the adults they will become by observing adult members of their species engaged in all manner of activity.  Depriving children of an opportunity to observe a wide variety of normal adults, adult bodies of their own species, is abusive and harmful to children. 

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: johnb on May 24, 2016, 09:53:14 PM
Two recent encounters, both whilst walking with a male friend and doing reece walks, ahead of two different Naturist Ramblers walks, showed that reactions can vary and not necessarily the way you might expect.

On the first occasion we saw a woman, probably in her fifties, looking for a dog which had just run off for a few minutes. We had time to cover up, but when we got up to her she said that we shouldn't have bothered as it would have made her day. She asked if had seen her dog, and we hadn't at that time. We carried on walking and uncovered again once we were clear, then saw the dog, which was heading in her direction, and called to let her know, and she gave us a friendly wave of thanks.

On the second occasion we met a man (probably also fifty years old or more) with a dog, but without any time to cover up. He didn't look very happy, and didn't return our greeting as we passed.

I can only conclude based on the above, and other past encounters, that there is no reason to assume that one involving a woman is likely to be any more difficult than with a man.

John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on May 24, 2016, 11:07:05 PM

I can only conclude based on the above, and other past encounters, that there is no reason to assume that one involving a woman is likely to be any more difficult than with a man.
John


I think that is true from my experience.  Many women enjoy seeing naked men, and vice versa.  Some men are old fuddy-duddies, like the guy you encountered.    Thinking back on it, I have probably had more positive responses from women. 

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on May 25, 2016, 12:35:54 AM
 I might add that thinking back, also in my experiences, there has been no clear imbalance in reaction to nudity, or in joining in socially nude situations, in negative, reactions of men and women.

Women have reacted negatively to nude and less clothed women that I have been with. I have only found one negative from a man of a nude woman and at that time, his drunken girlfriend yelled how she loved us, she thought we were sooo kool and took her top off in response.


This hoopla about protecting women and their fears, just may be completely baseless sexism.
The ladies are not frail; they're tuff.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: ric on May 27, 2016, 10:12:24 PM
this afternoon i went on to mow the paths at the nearby green burial ground, nice sunny afternoon a hour or so on the ride in mower out in the sticks surrounded by grass fields, ive lost count of how many years ive been doing it, rarely see anybody and the few times i have seen anyone in the distance ive had pleanty of time  to slip on a thong or shorts before they got close . anyway i whipped round the nature trail bit which has good views of the access road l no sign of nybody,  then on  into the graveyard proper, theres a path round the outside and another couple up through the graves  . about two thirds of the way round the outside  i noticed a bloke come in through the entrance and head for the graves,  hes fifties , pig tail , bit hippy looking , nil desperandum, ill just carry on round the perimeter path ,  as i get round by the graves he obviously doesnt know where the grave is that he wants to visit so angles over to intercept me, me had a brief chat about about the graveyard and which were the recent graves, his mate was buried last month so i could narrow it down to 2 for him,  during this exchange im sat naked on the ride on with my back to the entrance,   as i start to carry on mowing a thirties couple appear close behind us, going to an adjacent grave,  didnt attempt to join the conversation , but she had a big grin on her face as i drove off.
i commented to the bloke the place is busy today, he retorted with "i guess its the warm weather "

 its the first time ive actually had a naked close encounter with a mourner and 3 turn up.

one day the commitee that run the place will find out theyve got a naked volunteer doing their mowing. a couple of the commitee have seen me mowing  in a thong,( i wear one if theres a vehicle parked at the gate when i arrive) so it might not be too much of a surprise for them..
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: milfmog on July 29, 2016, 01:05:04 PM
I appear to have been a little quieter than usual here recently. That is not a lack of getting out and about, simply a lack of time to sit in front of a PC to tell you all about it. Sorry about that and here is a little tale to help me get back into the swing of posting...

This morning I took Hazel for a walk before I went to work. As usual, I did not dress for the walk as I was already perfectly attired when I woke up. This morning, I decided that we would walk in some woods about 5 miles from home. I have walked here many times in the past (these are the woods where I once met a naked jogger) though not frequently in the past year or so as the ground is often very wet here and in the summer we have had so far it has not seemed worthwhile driving here just to wade through sticky gloop. 

This morning it was 15C and dry although there was fairly heavy cloud cover when I arrived at the car park at 04:38. I got out of the car, opened the boot and let Hazel run free (usually I have her on a lead for a while to make sure I am well away from traffic but here there is no need as the lane to the car park is so quiet that it is not an issue).

We had a really enjoyable, warm walk through the dawn chorus, seeing a number of owls, a fox and a few deer as well as the usual woodland critters that I expect to see. Hazel spent most of the time trying to intercept squirrels before they could reach trees they could climb. As usual, she failed miserably but enjoyed trying.

Around half past six, as I was approaching the car, I heard a twig break behind me and, looking over my shoulder, saw a jogger with a couple of dogs coming up behind me. He was about 30 yards away and so I decided that he had probably already seen me and there was no point in dressing so I continued, greeting him with a cheerful “Good morning” as he passed. A few yards further on he stopped and called for his dogs then looked at me and asked “Why aren’t you wearing any clothes?” in a rather sniffy I-want-to-be-offended sort of tone.

I replied that I did not need them, which seemed to introduce an element of confusion to his life and after a couple of seconds, during which it seemed he was trying to remember how to breathe, he said “My wife walks through here”.

I don’t think my response of “And?...” was quite what he expected. He stood with his mouth open for a second or two and then, apparently at a complete loss for words, turned and jogged on, calling his dogs as he went.

I don’t particularly enjoy being caught out like that; it always offends me that my craft failed badly enough for someone to get so close before I knew he was there (it’s times like that when I really miss Taz, he’d have told me much earlier). However, the confusion introduced to the joggers brain made it all worthwhile and had me chuckling all the way home.

Have fun,


Ian.


Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on July 29, 2016, 02:10:42 PM
Nice one  ;)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on July 29, 2016, 04:13:24 PM
Perfect, Ian!  :D

Nothing better could have been said.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Dario Western on July 30, 2016, 01:05:12 AM
That's why I'm Jbee and I don't paste pics with our faces to claim anonymity. Trouble from a morals clause is unlikely for us, now, but one never can be completely sure, so hedge the bet. I always resented the school situation. I resent being stuffed in a closet, having my free speech and free expression suppressed, living a lie and having my personal time imposed on. I understand employer image concerns, but there is a limit that should always err to the personal freedom end and some pigs just can't understand boundaries, like they think that they own people because they pay them money. I refuse to work with those conditions, or attitudes.

Otherwise, I just don't care if someone else sees my nude body. Why should I?
Jbee

Don't worry what ANYBODY thinks of you being a nudist.  If they don't like it, then they are the ones with the problem.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on July 30, 2016, 06:45:08 PM
I keep my face out of my photographs for the same reason. Others here don't worry about that at all. To each his own. It is the impact that an incident might have on a career or other relationships that I value that I haven't done that yet.

It would be liberating to not have to concern myself with that.

Duane



Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on July 30, 2016, 07:16:13 PM
I keep my face out of my photographs for the same reason. Others here don't worry about that at all. To each his own. It is the impact that an incident might have on a career or other relationships that I value that I haven't done that yet.


I used to have to do that too.  I was concerned that I could lose my job or whatever.  Now I'm retired and I don't care.  I post naked photos on-line. 

I've found that nobody cares.  They only look at photos of young people, not us old farts. 

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 01, 2016, 06:54:51 PM
Quote from: Bob
They only look at photos of young people, not us old farts.

"Old Farts!"
I beg your pardon! I am not old!  :D

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: ric on August 01, 2016, 07:40:32 PM
nor am i.



 though the national trust said i could have senior citizens membership this year.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 02, 2016, 07:06:45 AM
We paid $10 bucks for a card that gives us discounts and mostly free passage in National Parks. Somebody thinks that we're old, retired and deserving of respect, if not so decrepit that we are about to be extinguished. We are labeled as old, BUT having reached this ripe old age, and getting social security checks next year aside, there are other aspects of the definition that just don't apply. I'm grateful to have discovered that old is nothing that is imagined by the younger and those who believe that their nature is to go gently into the good night.

Bob's right though, my young son told me he didn't want to go to the sweat because he didn't want to see saggy boobs. I pointed to my chest, told him that my boobs sag, and his day is a-commin'. I suppose that if he went to the sweat, that he would realize that women his age don't always have appendages like the internet girls.

I gave up BEER and pretzels, so generally, the other term doesn't apply either. If that is symbolic, then an old one would be more dissipated than a new one and hence smell better...or maybe I mean less.

Distinguished-ly yours,
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 02, 2016, 02:34:24 PM

Bob's right though, my young son told me he didn't want to go to the sweat because he didn't want to see saggy boobs. I pointed to my chest, told him that my boobs sag, and his day is a-commin'. I suppose that if he went to the sweat, that he would realize that women his age don't always have appendages like the internet girls.
Distinguished-ly yours,
Jbee


I mentioned before my thought that children need to learn about themselves by observing a wide variety of adult members of their own species.  Young people today see thousands of images on-line, they all do.  The images they see are almost all of the young "model" bodies.  The see little variety. The Internet excludes the young and the old.  That's a shame. 

I post my image. I'm old an plump and a long time past my "model" body I had half a century ago. It doesn't hurt to be seen.  It promotes the concept that naked is not just about young models for sexual arousal, and its educational for children (and young adults) to see a variety of human beings. 

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 02, 2016, 05:29:14 PM
What Bob said!
In triplicate!

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 02, 2016, 06:45:37 PM
I still find resentment when I remember how the ex took away that part of my son's education. It has had its negative effect, and I had to stand by and watch. I was able to educate with words and actions around the home, but still that wasn't enough. He needed peers, and the experience to see others as they naturally are, instead of the media onslaught that we are all oppressed with and sickened by. Well, seeds are there, principle, ideals, questioning, and alternatives, have been planted, so he stands a better chance of change and open-mindedness than I had. He doesn't however, have the generational peer context that I had in the 60's and 70's telling him about cool and social revolution. He isn't as wild as I was and have those experiences. He does have no problem with how we live. I give time time and accept the present moment for all that it is.
Jbee

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: ric on August 02, 2016, 08:24:41 PM
the real problem with the "model" bodies thrust in our faces is that the printed media photoshops most of them, so what the gullible are drooling over doesnt even exist.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 02, 2016, 08:27:03 PM
The human mind does the same thing, projecting out on life. ;D
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Alf on August 02, 2016, 10:53:01 PM
. . . as I was approaching the car, I heard a twig break behind me and, looking over my shoulder, saw a jogger with a couple of dogs coming up behind me. He was about 30 yards away and so I decided that he had probably already seen me and there was no point in dressing so I continued, greeting him with a cheerful “Good morning” as he passed. A few yards further on he stopped and called for his dogs then looked at me and asked “Why aren’t you wearing any clothes?” in a rather sniffy I-want-to-be-offended sort of tone. . .

Hi Ian.

I think that since we appear out of place, that our responses are not quite what they would be a second time around because we know that we are out of place. Crossing paths with other people is sometimes unexpected and faced with someone who 'expects' other people to conform to their ways can result in a vocal clash. Oh well, the jogger may open his mind as he too reflects on his day.

Cheers,

Alf
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 03, 2016, 12:37:37 AM
Oh well, the jogger may open his mind as he too reflects on his day.
Cheers,   Alf


Exactly.  The jogger who was surprised by seeing a naked hiker now has psychological permission to contemplate going naked himself.  In 5 years he may try it himself.  At worst, he suffered no harm seeing an human being.

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 06, 2016, 09:19:17 PM
My plan for this year has been to be more open and seen naked.  Yesterday I was at WalMart and thought about walking naked around my car in the parking lot to dress and undress standing on the passenger side after driving naked.  But I chickened out.  I stood on the driver side and put on my clothes, then reverse.

One of my normal activities is to take out the trash and get the mail naked.  This summer it has been rare or hasn't happened that someone comes past while I'm taking out the trash.  Our trash bin is on the side of our road, but its a rural road without much traffic.  So my plan to be seen more often hasn't been working.

Well today I was taking out the trash and I thought I would wait for someone to come by -- if it didn't take too long.  I put down the bag of trash about 50 feet from the bin and stood around for a while.  Then I wandered across the road to see if there had been any mail left from yesterday, nope.  I wandered around a little more and finally heard a car coming in the distance.  I picked up my bag of trash and waited for them to come around the corner of the road.  Once the car was in sight I walked out naked to the bin and deposited my trash. 

Instead of turning to go immediately I stood there and waited.  That took only seconds because the car was almost to me by the time I closed the lid on the trash bin.  The driver couldn't see my lower half as she approached because she was approaching from the side behind the bin, the right side facing the road.  As she got right next to me I could see it was a woman driving an older sedan, and as is the custom when meeting neighbors on rural farm roads, she waved to me. 

I returned her wave and watched her drive on.  "Job well done," I thought, and then headed up the driveway back to the house.  A pleasant summer morning. 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on August 08, 2016, 01:17:02 AM
Mostly coming back on things Bob posted:
1) Old farts:  I don't feel old but fart...well, got me there! :D
2) Following your remark about difference in current and past physique - I'd love to see a picture of you 50 years ago, Bob!
3) Why do you want to be seen naked more?  Is there a rationale?  I've learned that there's probably always a well-reasoned rationale for what Bob says and does.

John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 08, 2016, 01:48:37 AM
3) Why do you want to be seen naked more?  Is there a rationale?  I've learned that there's probably always a well-reasoned rationale for what Bob says and does.
John


Its political advocacy.   Promoting public naked as an acceptable choice for all requires naked people to be out in public so often that it becomes common and unremarkable by the public.   So my goal for this year is to practice what I preach by getting seen naked while doing normal every day activities. 

Bob

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on August 08, 2016, 03:37:35 PM
Can't fault it Bob.
I only wish I had the bottle.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on August 09, 2016, 02:05:37 AM
 I knew you'd have a cogent reason, Bob.  Good luck.  If you're prepared to risk the negative consequences, it's a brave and good thing to do to help people to understand naturism. 

Unlike JOhn, I have the bottle.  Sadly it's just a bottle of coke not courage.:)
John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 09, 2016, 06:54:57 PM
I knew you'd have a cogent reason, Bob.  Good luck.  If you're prepared to risk the negative consequences, it's a brave and good thing to do to help people to understand naturism. 
John

I'm planning not to have any significant negative consequences.   Most people I have encountered over 50 years of being seen naked have been OK with seeing another human.  Now that everyone has cell phones with cameras handy it may change.  I hope not. 

Yesterday I was out for a naked drive in the country nearby.   I've started submitting photos to a site about Naked Public Dares.  I saw that JohnGw was already posting there so I had sent them a few photos.   One of their Dare ideas is naked with a gate, and on this trip I got out to get some photos of a couple of gates.   I forgot to insert a memory card into my camera, so I have no photos to show. 

Most of the traffic was farm trucks.  Its wheat harvest season here. I always wave when passing a farm truck, a habit I learned when I was 14 and driving harvest trucks. Naked or not I still wave.  Soon I came to a little town called Pine City https://www.google.com/maps/@47.2020778,-117.5263132,953m/data=!3m1!1e3 

Pine City's big industry is a couple of grain silos called "elevators" in these parts.  There were trucks of grain coming in from farms and unloading. The office and unloading area had staff.  As I approached Pine City some guy in a car came up behind me and was riding my bumper like he was in a hurry.  Since there was a wide place in the road in Pine City, I pulled off to let him go past.  I sat a few moments observing the grain elevators.  Then I thought, "why not."  I opened my door and got out (naked) across the street from the larger elevator.  I walked around my car. It was a lovely day for a walk but I didn't want to be there very long.  Coming around my car from the back I got in again and drove on.  I don't know if anyone saw me naked in the middle of town or not.  People are usually minding their own business.  It was a lovely day for my campaign of pushing the envelope of nude acceptance.   
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 09, 2016, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: Bob
Its political advocacy.   Promoting public naked as an acceptable choice . . .

e.g.
Frantic Citizen: But I saw a naked man out on Rt. 4!
Authority Figure: What was he doing?
FC: I don’t know. I think he was taking out the trash!
AF: Taking out the trash?
FC: Yes!
AF: Is that all?
FC: I guess so.
AF: It’s not against the law to take out trash.

etc., etc., etc.

Small steps accumulate!

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 10, 2016, 01:33:33 AM
Quote from: Bob
Its political advocacy.   Promoting public naked as an acceptable choice . . .

e.g.
Frantic Citizen: But I saw a naked man out on Rt. 4!
Authority Figure: What was he doing?
FC: I don’t know. I think he was taking out the trash!
AF: Taking out the trash?
FC: Yes!
AF: Is that all?
FC: I guess so.
AF: It’s not against the law to take out trash.

etc., etc., etc.

Small steps accumulate!

Duane

That's kind of my plan, Duane.   IF anyone does call the police, I'm not actually breaking any law just taking out my trash naked, nor walking in the woods naked.  I hope the police won't go off on a crusade against a harmless old guy who wasn't breaking any law.

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on August 10, 2016, 02:43:58 AM
Well, what the Naturist Action Committee says for the state of Washington is:
RCW 9A.88.010  Indecent exposure.
(1) A person is guilty of indecent exposure if he or she intentionally makes any open and obscene exposure of his or her person or the person of another knowing that such conduct is likely to cause reasonable affront or alarm. The act of breastfeeding or expressing breast milk is not indecent exposure.

[NAC NOTE: The state of Washington has used RCW 9A.88.010 to arrest and prosecute persons for nude sunbathing.]

I suppose it comes down to whether nudity is "obscene". If it's not, then even if there is "reasonable affront or alarm" it wouldn't matter, because the exposure that provokes it has to be "open and obscene". That added note from the NAC is worrying, though it doesn't say that the prosecution(s) were successful. Experience elsewhere has shown that prosecutors try to use intimidation to get a guilty plea to some lesser offense, usually some variation on "disorderly conduct", carrying a small fine. What they don't want to do is go to court against a determined defendant, trying to get a conviction under a weak and ambiguous law. If they failed, they'd come out of it looking foolish, and there would be a precedent set that weakens the law still further. That doesn't mean that the defendant is spared a large expense in defending himself, though.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 10, 2016, 08:48:37 AM
 I had looked into the NAC information, too. Any idea what those definitions listed are about? Anybody care to speculate?
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 10, 2016, 03:41:46 PM
Well, what the Naturist Action Committee says for the state of Washington is:
RCW 9A.88.010  Indecent exposure.
(1) A person is guilty of indecent exposure if he or she intentionally makes any open and obscene exposure of his or her person or the person of another knowing that such conduct is likely to cause reasonable affront or alarm. The act of breastfeeding or expressing breast milk is not indecent exposure.

The NAC guide is way too limited to be useful.   In my state several courts have held that "intentionally" has meaning -- a naked person has to "intentionally" be doing "conduct" that "is likely" to cause affront or alarm.  Several courts have concluded similar to Oregon and California that merely being naked while minding your own business is not "conduct that is likely."    Naked exposure also has to be BOTH "open" and "obscene."   Our courts generally hold that human bodies are not inherently "obscene" for merely existing.  Courts observe that the Legislature did NOT adopt a law saying that naked bodies are illegal without obscene behavior intended to cause alarm or affront. 

A few years ago the Seattle police arrested a couple of men at the WNBR after some "offended" citizen complained.  The court rapidly had them freed and told the police not to waste their time.   Nobody has been arrested at the Seattle WNBR, the Freemont (Seattle) Parade, or other events in some years.  And there are now some beaches in Seattle where people often are naked. 

The other part is that our state is politically divided from west to east.  Its not clear that my east side police or courts will be as human friendly as the west side police.  They tend to be more about harassing people to rule by fear and violence, and less about the law over here. 


Quote
[NAC NOTE: The state of Washington has used RCW 9A.88.010 to arrest and prosecute persons for nude sunbathing.]

Again the NAC is limited information.  In the past few years the courts have tossed out such arrests and the police in several jurisdictions no longer waste time on them.  But they still could because police are jerks. 


Quote
I suppose it comes down to whether nudity is "obscene". If it's not, then even if there is "reasonable affront or alarm" it wouldn't matter, because the exposure that provokes it has to be "open and obscene".

Nudity has to be "intentionally" obscene.  That leaves out just being human going about your daily chores.  I suppose its a lot like the UK where police being jerks can harass anyone they choose, law or not.   I try not to be naked in public so long or so blatant that the police start getting calls and have time to come out to investigate.

Quote
What they don't want to do is go to court against a determined defendant, trying to get a conviction under a weak and ambiguous law. If they failed, they'd come out of it looking foolish, and there would be a precedent set that weakens the law still further. That doesn't mean that the defendant is spared a large expense in defending himself, though.

Indeed.  The police lost some cases over by Seattle where courts told them not to waste time of the courts with harassment arrests.   They see themselves as "the law" though, so we live in a land where freedom is not free.

Its a fine line to walk.  We gain public (and police) acceptance of nudity only by being naked in public.  But we risk harassment until it becomes common and accepted. 

That which is unseen rapidly becomes unseeable, and human bodies have been unseen and unseeable far too long.

Bob


Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 10, 2016, 05:35:23 PM
My impression of the cases where someone is arrested for minor infractions, of all types, have more to do with the officer deciding that they are misbehaving, not breaking a law.

I suppose I can see that disturbing the peace can be disturbing, but like one man's trash is another man's treasure, what some see as disturbing is entertainment for others. Unfortunately taxpayer dollars are wasted every year on this sort of hair splitting. I realize that law enforcement is trying to ensure that no harm is done but at some point you have to acknowledge that you can't guarantee that 100%.

Behaviors that repeatedly show up on the radar of enforcement should be addressed in training so the officer has a better and broader perspective. That way they can make a field decision that is more in line with the real impact of that behavior.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 10, 2016, 06:10:51 PM
In the field during encounters with police, there can be great ignorance of the intent of the law, or overreach. When it gets to court (and expense) there is the 14th amendment equal before the law. This has been used as a lawyers ploy in civil suits that I think sends it out of context. Anyway, enforcement there is then more consistent across the state.

If it ticks off the local police head, or he/she sees you as a threat to public decency, or thinks that there may be fire under the smoke, or his idea of justice has not been served, there can be harassment, which I have seen. You can't leave your door and see a cop without being stopped. I found in my case (I was too political, not a nude issue), that there was a group within the department that did the fascist deeds, not all of them. Years ago, I had a friend make a complaint after beating an arrest. He got stopped every time any cop saw him. He decided to move and drive another car, rather than live as a target.

Anyway, you get offered a pleee thing first. Then a lower court judge which may, or may not be a crony politician in robes. After that, in court, the odds are good that one side of the state will have to interpret law the same as the rest of the state. Then, there is the jury option (very expensive), which you might imagine results would vary. I'm not a Washington State attorney, but that is pretty common procedure in the USA.

If you have the means to support a suit, it should change things across the state. A shot heard around the state for freedom! Then, the local politicians might react, if it got loud and political enough. Depends.

Before that, as you say, most people are just minding their own business. Well, then there's the hysterical mother hiding her kids eyes.

In the words of Mr. Morton, "Jus' Sayin'."
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 10, 2016, 06:58:00 PM
Yes.  Police are the sworn enemies of freedom. 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 10, 2016, 07:12:57 PM
We were protesting ourside of a school board meeting one evening, including my 10 year old son with his smaller, "Save the Desert" Pick it sign. The officer under orders from the corrupt school board members was attempting to remove us from the area. We made them look bad.

We had our attorney at hand. He went up to the head police officer, identified himself and asked, " You are sworn to uphold the constitution, are you not?"

The cop straightened his back and said proudly, "Why yes."

The attorney crooked his head sideways and up, "Have you heard of the 1st Amendment?"

We had our say after that.

My point being, that there is hope. Under all of the thuggery, nearly every cop wants to believe that he is a good guy.

Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on August 10, 2016, 08:19:27 PM
Quote
Yes.  Police are the sworn enemies of freedom.

The Police in a well served democracy are not the sworn enemies of freedom unless of course you want the freedom to riot, commit arson , rob old age pensioners etc.etc. A number of Police Officers have died defending the freedom to live a peaceful life under the rule of law. I saw one of my colleagues killed and I'm proud to have served as a Police Officer for many years.

There are bad apples and Police Officers need to be accountable but it is not right to make a statement that Police Officers are sworn enemies!

Davie
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 10, 2016, 09:57:17 PM

The Police in a well served democracy are not the sworn enemies of freedom unless of course you want the freedom to riot, commit arson , rob old age pensioners etc.etc.
Davie


This whole discussion has been about having a few moments of legal freedom without our lives being destroyed by over zealous cops.   We just want freedom to go about our daily lives in a legal manner.  And we talk about it here because that isn't really possible anywhere that cops rule.  We are not rioting, burning, or robbing.  We are just human beings wanting to walk on the earth in freedom.  Not happening here.   

This is from JB's post:
Quote
If it ticks off the local police head, or he/she sees you as a threat to public decency, or thinks that there may be fire under the smoke, or his idea of justice has not been served, there can be harassment, which I have seen. You can't leave your door and see a cop without being stopped. I found in my case (I was too political, not a nude issue), that there was a group within the department that did the fascist deeds, not all of them. Years ago, I had a friend make a complaint after beating an arrest. He got stopped every time any cop saw him. He decided to move and drive another car, rather than live as a target.

It may not be what you and your cop buddies tell each other, but its the real experience of real citizens on the street.  I'm not going to get into a long debate.  I have to fear and hide even minding my own business on my own land.   Yes, cops are the antithesis of freedom. Cops are the sworn enemies of every freedom loving citizen.  My freedom is under constant threat of violence and arrest.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 11, 2016, 12:29:02 AM
We used to call them "peace officers" Protect and serve. Things have been getting progressively militaristic, like some third world dictatorships that I've visited. There's a bad attitude, an insulting controlling condescending authority attitude that is becoming general wide spread culture in this country. Even the smiling polite ones are abusing their authority and MY FREEDOMS while they detain me for no reason. When you are trained to fear and overreact with the warning that you or your partner's life could be in jeopardy if you don't, it starts an accruing precedent. These guys are human, they're susceptible. They are not all bright shinning stars to begin with, most just average folks, and then of course some shouldn't be in uniform. Many now are coming into policing after military training and conditioning/training as an occupying military force. They just don't get it. They don't understand freedom. They understand good guys and bad guys, feeling heroic, hotdogs and beer under a flag and machismo. Lawyers are bad guys, others are bad guys, anyone could be lethal, unusual is suspect, US Constitution is just an impediment to doing a job if they actually understood it and didn't have to refer to a supervisor to ask about it.

Anymore, when I find a cop that seems to emit peace, respect and freedom, I want to embrace 'em. It is just that sadly unusual. They come around like a dark cloud and hover over crowds, stern, all contempt and business. They are detached and isolated. The enforcers of a police state.

Before the declaration of drug wars, there were a few bad apples, some corruption, but police could generally be trusted and depended on. Now, you never know when one is going to suddenly use force for no justified reason. Particularly when no one is watching. It is always in the air, a danger is implied, when even during the mundane of getting a traffic ticket. That's a change in America in my lifetime and particularly in the last 20 years. It's not just happening to the poor anymore. The police often think that they are in a war. Did the people change that much? No, but many are reacting to oppression, the culture created by problematic cops and the get tough law and order politicians grandstanding.

 We are right in the middle, trying to mind our own business under inappropriate threat for doing so.
Jbee

   
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on August 11, 2016, 12:56:29 AM
Thank goodness I live this side of the pond! I used to enjoy visiting the Us but if its that bad.....

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 11, 2016, 02:03:29 AM
The trick is to avoid law enforcement. Most people mind their own business. You are white, passing through, an accent and a passport with visa, just drive a nice late model car. You'll be safe to visit. Caught naked, just plead ignorance to the cop and act confused. :D ::) :) Former cops get preferential treatment. Their nearly above the law, but that's another issue.

When you wrote that Bobbies still walk among the populace unarmed, I was literally stunned, stopped cold trying to get my head around that.
Somewhere, Officer Andy knows everybody and is there being a part of, and then in the next little town Bubba is out there looking for prey to pass through his speed trap, search them and hoping for his lucky day.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on August 11, 2016, 09:49:43 AM
As Davie says, there are the good and the bad in every sphere of life and the police have their problems like the rest of us. There definitely seems to be some big differences between the UK and US approaches to "law enforcement", not least as demonstrated by JB's amazement that UK police do not routinely carry guns. I would say that over here we get three views of the US police:

1 - the Hollywood view, where most cops are good guys, crack lots of jokes and break all the rules for the common good.

2 - the news view when they're protecting the public in the wake of the latest mass shooting

3 - a slightly frightening view, again via the news, when they seem intent on breaking up crowds and deploying ex-military hardware such as armoured cars!

All these views are completely skewed away from reality, so I regard all as suspect.

The direct experiences Bob and JB have had with their police have inevitably coloured their feelings, but I'd be interested to know how much of that is historical and has not been updated by more recent interaction (things might have changed?), and how much has been recent interaction. My own exposure to the police centres on seeing them dealing with road accidents, otherwise it's all filtered by news organisations who tend to only report on the scandals and problems.

peter
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 11, 2016, 03:28:43 PM
There was a news story out of Florida, USA this week.  The police held a public demonstration for the media and public to teach people how to act in a "Hands up don't shot" situation.  With media and public gathered to watch they had an elderly woman volunteer do a "roll play" of someone being arrested.  They intended to teach citizens how to be safe when confronted by police.

Because they were the police they shot and killed her anyway.   Killing people is what they do.  Its their training. Its who they are.  Even with an elderly woman in a public relations roll play, they killed her. 

American police are out of control.  We are not safe while they roam our streets with guns.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/10/woman-fatally-shot-in-accident-during-fla-citizen-police-academy-lethal-force-simulation/

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on August 11, 2016, 04:08:59 PM
A dreadful mistake but do you seriously expect your Police to go unarmed when you have the second amendment?

We have strict firearms legislation in the UK and our Police are generally unarmed and don't want to carry. We have armed response officers who are all highly trained. We have trained officers carrying Tasars too and its the lesser trained ones that have caused the odd problem.

I note that Australia had two may gun killings and the introduction of strict firearms legislation means more Australians are living than would otherwise be the case.

What the Police of all nations need to understand is that the greatest tools in their tool-box is their brain, ears and their voice, to get what's needs by persuasion and by talking to people and actually listening

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 11, 2016, 04:59:04 PM
A dreadful mistake but do you seriously expect your Police to go unarmed when you have the second amendment? Davie  8)


I notice how casually you waved off another police murder.  "A dreadful mistake."  And then move on to excusing police.    As a police retiree, Dave, you and your friends just don't get it yet.  You are a long way from being able to listen. 

Quote
and by talking to people and actually listening 

A great deal of police listening to the people is needed, but it is clearly not happening yet. 

When we go out naked we are in constant fear of having our lives destroyed by police, even though the law in these parts does not prohibit naked people.  We need the police off our backs and out of our pockets.   

Its time for police to change sides. Police need to be on the side of the people and not the sworn enemies of the people.  Police should be protecting my safety to live as a free man in a free country, not hiding behind a bush waiting to rob me, imprison me, or kill me.  Its time for police to start listening to the people, actually listening.  As long as police are just waiving off our concerns with their ongoing killings, robberies, and brutal beatings, they have not yet started to listen.  I should not have to fear police just to take out my trash naked. 

Bob






Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on August 11, 2016, 05:42:31 PM
Oh dear. I feel so sorry that you live in such a country where your Police Force is so remote. Maybe you could learn a little from us. We're not perfect but as a Police Service we always tried to listen, sometimes we failed but by and large we did, and do, Police by consent.

Davie  8)

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: milfmog on August 11, 2016, 06:04:04 PM
Bob,

If I thought your view of the US police was accurate you can be certain I would not entertain visiting the "land of the free". Fortunately, your view does not appear to be an accurate reflection of reality for most Americans.

While I do not doubt that you have some bad guys in uniform (we have some here too) I will not allow that minority to colour my view of the entire force. I still look forward to visiting the States again at some point and remain confident that any interactions I have with authority there are far more likely to be civil than otherwise.

Have fun (I believe that is still allowed, even in the USA...)


Ian.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 11, 2016, 06:58:28 PM
Bob,If I thought your view of the US police was accurate you can be certain I would not entertain visiting the "land of the free". Fortunately, your view does not appear to be an accurate reflection of reality for most Americans.

There are a lot of things going on in the US.   I cannot say if my views reflect "most Americans" or just many Americans.   There is a Facebook group called "Police the Police" with a million followers.  There are riots in the streets of numerous cities demanding changes.  There are activist groups threatening to kill as many police as they can.  The police are holding public "role playing" demonstrations to educate people how to avoid getting killed, (such as the one I posted news about above) but even that doesn't seem to work.   The US already has more men in prisons than any other nation ever.  The US cops kill another man every 8 hours.   That compares to the UK where cops have probably killed only 8 people in the past century. 

Even when they aren't killing people, their brutal arrest and jail process is a horrible punishment for people who broke no law.  Its really gone nuts in the US. 

Bob

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: ric on August 11, 2016, 08:31:27 PM
got to say my first encounter with officialdom in the us did not inspire any great desire to return...the arrivals procedure at newark was a farce.   loads of gates for us citizens, few for anyone else , nobody waiting at the us desks 2 hour queue for everone else, then surly staff who gave the impression that you were something smelly theyed picked up on their shoe .   and this was way before 9/11 so god knows what its like now.
all i know is if ever i have to return it wont be via newark.

coming back the airline check in guy in florida gave us seats scattered accross the airplane, when i complained that that wasnt on with small children, he said the cabin staff would sort us seats together, when we got to the plane cabin staff said thats your seats only way to change is to go back to checkin and get on a later flight... and miss the transatlantic connection at newark.
easily sorted by just ignoring the cabin staff sitting together and giving our seat numbers to the passengers who found us in their seats.   then when we got on the connecting flight expecting the same performance the plane was virtually empty , why did the guy give us scattered seats? was he just pissy for the sake of it or high or what.
anyway upshot was we aint going back anytime soon. europe and africa seem to want tourists to enjoy the experience and return.

onto english police, in general ive found them reasonable, but there are bad ones , i had one threaten to arrest me for parking on a yellow line in the village high street..causing an obstruction.. didnt like being told i was allowed to stop to load, which in fact even allows completeion of relevent paperwork, and it was his car parked next to me that was blocking the road and the bus in front of him hadnt had any trouble getting through. could have got silly but whilst we were debating the issue our young un had finished the loading so i capitulated and moved on .

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 11, 2016, 09:25:55 PM
Although I’m sure that I don’t see things like Bob sees them, I certainly can’t just dismiss it as a few bad eggs. There is a culture within the police department’s internal affairs and training that has gotten out of hand. The police don’t treat or look upon the population, nor interact with us in the same manner as they used to, back when it was just a few bad eggs.

I think that what Bob is concerned with needs some Americana context that might help to explain.

We have Rights, which have been constitutional guarantees, ever since the revolution over two hundred years ago. Much of the Constitution is addressing the abuses of the then occupying force (uh ho, a long time ago? :-[... ;D), to make sure that those abuses of power never happen to a free citizenry again. We have a right to our personal papers and correspondence. From keeping soldiers from being housed in people’s homes, grew to a man’s home is his castle. Warrants have to be approved by a judge, be specific and produced before anyone can enter our homes. We have a right to free assembly, free association, protest, speech, organizing, and anywhere on public property. We can say what we want, and we can keep what we want to ourselves. We are all to be treated equally before the law. We are not to be stopped and detained, or searched at the whim of an authority. There must be a probable cause to do this and that is supposed to be a very strict interpretation restraining the police. We are to have a right to a jury of our peers, which can throw a law out of court, if they desire. We are to have an attorney provided to represent us, if we can’t afford one, so that we get a fair and impartial trial. Everybody is innocent until proven guilty and shall be treated as such. We can have an arsenal, protect ourselves, and our property when necessary, and be organized to have another revolution, if necessary, when our government fails us. These and more protect our freedoms. They are a framework. The freedom is a gift from God. It is sacred. It is not a privilege.  All of these have been eroded to the point where they hardly exist in actual function. This country is now a police state. It is not 1984, but subtly all of those principles are going on.

In many neighborhoods, police presence is an occupying force. It has been for a long long time. Now, these policing methods are being spread into the rest the country, by the police training, trained attitude and political permission and encouragement.
 
Even as I sit here now, I have in the back of my mind that in the years ahead, I may have negative consequence for speaking the truth as I am here. When under investigation for anything, even just because I might have associated with someone in the minutest way that would be plotting revolution, this could be used as evidence to indict me as a “bad guy.” The police have been militarized because it is illegal to send the military upon the citizenry. The excuse is terrorism. Any act planned against the ruling government, not a government by and for the people is twisted into being called a terrorist act. Anyone who is involved in confronting government in power is under investigation to some extent, and with the potential to be drawn into a “conspiracy” charge at some time. This isn’t just about a few bad eggs, cops on the street. It is systemic. That is intimidation.
 
I can tell you of probably twenty involvements that I have had with police in my lifetime, in which they abused their power, my rights and my guarantees, or others. I can remember four traffic stops, twenty or more years ago, where I was treated properly. I was even let go once for a traffic violation, because he recognized that I had made a mistake, not intentional, and my CDL indicated that the result might cost me my job. But that was a minority of encounters. When I am at a public gathering and police come around, it IS like a dark cloud. They have been trained to act as such to maintain intimidation and fear. I see this everywhere and I have been around long enough to remember a huge difference in the past.

You are correct, this isn’t the experience of most people, but if you don’t look the part, or are on the other side of a political spectrum than the government’s police, look out. However now, even white people with kids in the back seat are being stopped for minor traffic violations by a guy dressed in black uniform with his hand on a trigger, bent over ready to shoot, telling you to put your hands on the steering wheel, and asking if they have a gun. They are told to shut up, including the kids, and produce the proper paper ID and paperwork by this scary thug. They are asked where and what they are doing, where they are going, run through a computer, and told ”AND DON”T MOVE.” The manner of speaking is not anything like friendly; you are suspect, guilty until they deem you innocent. If investigated, the cop may be in violation of department procedures for treating you civilly, not for being a jerk.

Bob is relating this context to the simple act of taking his trash out and walking his personal domain without the encumbrance of clothing, in short minding his own business. All of this abuse mounts up and then there is the potential of further extra-legal unconstitutional actions. You are assumed to have broken a law until a judge decides that you haven’t. All it takes is a nosey neighbor (who may actually be hiding in the bushes), an anonymous call, and an overzealous cop making up his own law, and being the jury and executioner.

I’m still getting my head around cops with no guns. That is soo reasonable and civil AND it works, AND I know that people do have guns over there, even though they may not be supposed to have them. I remember previous to 1970, when police had to knock on a door and serve a duly approved warrant, before they searched for a specific piece of evidence AND it worked in this country.

The other side of the coin is that several times, I have gone up to an officer to ask something, like directions, at a public event. They don’t want to have anything to do with people. Perhaps they are concerned that you are a distraction for a crime, or have an alternative motive. They are trained to suspect that you are very likely about to attack them and immediately seek control and intimidation. Perhaps they are alarmed, thinking that you have a serious problem. They seem to be very over-reactive beings trying not to be human.

So, although I don’t fully share Bob’s assessment of the situation, I certainly understand his sense of the situation.
Jbee

Incidentally ric, the culture around NYC is noticeably more surly than most of the rest of the country. The Fed TSA has become outlandishly empowered. The reason given is terrorism and illegal immigration. If you sit in a factory situation all day looking at documentation and being surrounded with, probably justly, irritated people....well.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on August 11, 2016, 10:22:56 PM
The tone of our US brothers brings to mind my favourite saying - to an expert with a hammer, every problem can be solved by hitting it! Expanding this, politicians 'solve' everything by forming committees, soldiers solve problems by attacking, and police solve problems by demanding greater powers of arrest. You make it sound as though the US police generally have have taken the course of treating everyone as a potential criminal.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 11, 2016, 11:16:00 PM
The tone of our US brothers brings to mind my favourite saying - to an expert with a hammer, every problem can be solved by hitting it! Expanding this, politicians 'solve' everything by forming committees, soldiers solve problems by attacking, and police solve problems by demanding greater powers of arrest. You make it sound as though the US police generally have have taken the course of treating everyone as a potential criminal.

That is MY sense of it. Yea, in a nut-shell, nuts-hell. Imagine how scary that world would be for a policeman. Imagine how deluded that is. Imagine the effect on the people as they realize that. The issue is much to do with trust.

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 15, 2016, 07:17:42 PM
I agree that the activities of police sometimes are disturbing but the activities of government and legislative bodies are also disturbing. There is an increasing push here in the US for more freedoms in regard to personal behavior. We have always had them, but many people have never fully acted on them. Too many times laws become confusing by reason of lawmakers attempting to regulate moral behavior.

I do not believe that the police are swearing oaths that are making them enemies of freedom. Nor do I believe a demonstration was staged so a citizen could be intentionally gunned down. I do believe police are being given duties that do not belong in their jurisdiction. Just because a complaint is made doesn’t mean a law needs to be in place to give them a solution to a situation. If the law doesn’t exist, say so and ask the person complaining to go talk to the person that is annoying them. Police are too frequently being looked to as babysitters. That is not their duty.

Quote from: pjcomp
. . . brings to mind my favourite saying - to an expert with a hammer, every problem can be solved by hitting it!

I have always heard this one as, “To a carpenter, every problem looks like a nail.”  ;)

This discussion also reminds me of another saying, “Everyone hates lawyers, until they need one.”  :(

As in any community, there all sorts of folks. Good and bad. The same holds for the law enforcement community. The police need to be refocused on enforcing laws not trying to control or modifying behavior. It’s more complicated than it appears on the surface. We need them. We just need them to stay focused on the laws and not allowing them to be used by politicians as a tool for advancing their careers.

I believe that is the source of more of the police problems than any other.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Safebare on August 21, 2016, 01:47:29 PM
I was sitting at my computer one evening earlier this summer, when a sheriff deputy flashed his flashlight through the window next to me to get my attention. Though I was confident that he could not tell I was nude at that point, I knew he could see me get up to walk towards the door. And I thought he would appreciate my going directly to the door instead of heading to the back of the house to retrieve a cover. So I answered the door nude. That was complicated by my Schnauzer, Sugar, who has to noisily greet all visitors.
The officer simply informed me that a complaint had been called in regarding my practice of feeding the horses without wearing any clothes. He said that it was obvious to him that I was very comfortable being naked and there is nothing wrong with that. But asked that I "wrap a towel around my waist anytime I might be seen from the road."
He noted that the woman who called in was particularly concerned that her 12 yo son was in the car with her when they passed.
They had passed just as I was approaching the gate to the back yard. I have been doing this FRN long enough to sense when I've been caught. It's a different experience from being seen.  I was very pleased with how the officer handled the situation. He explained the situation and offered a solution, then wished me a good evening. I was never asked to get dressed.
Safebare
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on August 21, 2016, 02:09:35 PM
I respect and appreciate your story but would comment that once again we have the "what about the children" concern. There is no evidence that simple nudity will effect anyone adversely, child or adult.

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Safebare on August 21, 2016, 02:48:42 PM
It's not like they will be stricken deaf, mute & blind by the sight of a nude human. But it reminded me of the rock opera Tommy. " What about the boy?! He saw it all!" ☺
But, no one died.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on August 21, 2016, 03:08:20 PM
My opinion is that while children aren't harmed by seeing what people look like they are definitely harmed by the reactions of people who think they will be harmed by the knowledge.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 21, 2016, 05:47:08 PM
I was sitting at my computer one evening earlier this summer, when a sheriff deputy flashed his flashlight through the window next to me to get my attention.

The deputy was prowling around peering in windows looking for anything illegal rather than coming politely and knocking on your door. 


Quote
Though I was confident that he could not tell I was nude at that point, I knew he could see me get up to walk towards the door. And I thought he would appreciate my going directly to the door instead of heading to the back of the house to retrieve a cover. So I answered the door nude. That was complicated by my Schnauzer, Sugar, who has to noisily greet all visitors.

The deputy had probably been prowling about for a while before you caught him shining his light in your windows. 


Quote
The officer simply informed me that a complaint had been called in regarding my practice of feeding the horses without wearing any clothes. He said that it was obvious to him that I was very comfortable being naked and there is nothing wrong with that. But asked that I "wrap a towel around my waist anytime I might be seen from the road."

And so it begins.  Now you have a "compliance order" directing you to avoid doing legal activity on your own property.   He said it was legal, but obey his order and don't do it anyway.  That's how they work.


Quote
He noted that the woman who called in was particularly concerned that her 12 yo son was in the car with her when they passed.

Like any 12 yo boy is going to be destroyed by the sight of an adult of his species and sex.  Its a trash excuse and may not have been true. 

Effective law enforcement would have informed the woman who called that being naked is legal, nobody was harmed, and she should mind her own business.   But instead they took to opportunity to create a "disturbance" (and "police record") with you.  That's how they operate.


Quote
They had passed just as I was approaching the gate to the back yard. I have been doing this FRN long enough to sense when I've been caught. It's a different experience from being seen.  I was very pleased with how the officer handled the situation.

I don't think the officer handled it well at all. 

I would have been quite offended at his authoritarian misconduct and harassment of an ordinary citizen.

Quote
He explained the situation and offered a solution, then wished me a good evening. I was never asked to get dressed.
Safebare 

But you were arbitrarily ordered to cover when within sight of a road, and this event will be used against you if you are ever "caught" naked somewhere else.   Got it.

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on August 21, 2016, 05:52:35 PM
Two interesting takes on one event - Safebare appears quite happy with what happened and the way it went (correct me if I got that wrong) while John placed a far more sinister interpretation on it. I guess future events may inform us which view of the police pans out.

peter
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 22, 2016, 04:06:47 PM
My further adventures taking out my trash. 

The road past my house is not very well traveled.  Sometimes one can wait half an hour without any vehicles at all.  There are only about 4 homes and 6 farms in the 10 miles south to where it ends at a crossing road.  The crossing road also goes across a small creek where a canoe or flat bottom boat can navigate to a nice lake for fishing, etc.  In summer we get some boat traffic, maybe 6 per day. 

Last evening I took a bag of trash out to my trash bin at the road.  As I walked toward the bin I heard a car coming from the south. I ignored it and kept walking, holding the trash at my side.  I was maybe 75 feet from the trash bin and 100 feet from the road when a red pickup went past.  In the back of the pickup was 4 or 5 brightly colored kayaks or paddle boats of some kind.  Lake people.  I couldn't see how many people were in the pickup. They probably got a quick look at my front side as they passed. They drove on past and soon rounded the corner to my north (left). 

I walked on out to my bin and put the trash in.  I stood there for a moment wondering what I should do next when a vehicle rounded the corner to my north, headed south.   I closed the trash bin lid and began walking up the driveway toward my house.  As they passed I glanced over my shoulder and saw it was the same pickup again, this time headed south.  I was again about 100 feet from the road.  I kept walking away.  The pickup passed by.

I had gotten maybe another 100 feet when the same pickup pulled up and stopped in front of my driveway to get a better look.  I'm sure they appreciate the view of my beautiful older gluteus maximus, my crack between them, bare back, bare feet, long thinning grey hair, etc. 
 
I came to the part of my driveway where it goes up a hill and then around a corner.  As I continued walking up my hill the pickup drove off.  I do hope they enjoyed seeing a beautiful older man taking out his trash.  Whoever they were, they devoted time and energy into having a look. 

I wonder if it was the same off duty cops and deputy sheriffs who were out shooting their machine guns on my neighbor's land a couple of weeks ago?  Whomever they were it gives them an opportunity to encounter and see a human being engaged in ordinary non-confrontational activity.   So far, I haven't seen any cops shining flashlights in my window or even knocking on my door. 

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: ric on August 22, 2016, 05:02:25 PM
perhaps they thought theyed seen bigfoot  ;)



please excuse my sense of humour
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 22, 2016, 06:21:20 PM
Quote from: JOhn
My opinion is that while children aren't harmed by seeing what people look like they are definitely harmed by the reactions of people who think they will be harmed by the knowledge.

A self fulfilling prophesy?

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 23, 2016, 01:46:50 AM
perhaps they thought theyed seen bigfoot  ;)



please excuse my sense of hum our
The tourists probably took a cell phone pic and showed their friends. I really wonder what reasoning that they had to make the effort to come back for a look. Could'a shown a picture of Bob's butt to the police and been blown off. Why?...???

Ya never really know what lurks in the minds of people who wear clothes. They can be soo peculiar.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 23, 2016, 01:55:22 AM
The tourists probably took a cell phone pic and showed their friends. I really wonder what reasoning that they had to make the effort to come back for a look. Could'a shown a picture of Bob's butt to the police and been blown off. Why?...???

Ya never really know what lurks in the minds of people who wear clothes. They can be soo peculiar.
Jbee

Yes.  If they just want a photo of my rear they can look on several web sites.

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: ric on August 23, 2016, 10:50:27 AM
think positive,
 they could have just been checking that you wernt in any signs of distress,   if they have never come accross a naturist their first thoughts on seeing a naked person in the wilds could have been a dumped victim of crime.     
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 23, 2016, 04:03:27 PM
I agree with Bob. It is probably they wanted to just see what they thought they had seen. In the process they got to see a guy on his own land minding his business.

You know, taking out the trash. And, well, he happened to be naked. Big deal.
Over time they will realize it IS no big deal and nothing will come of it.

It is one more way to normalize normal nudity.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Safebare on August 24, 2016, 03:14:35 AM
There are plenty of photos of my rear out there in the ether. I've actually found one or two along the way.
I stand by my assessment of the LEO encounter based on previous events where I received a citation for public nuisance while skinny-dipping in an abandoned park and being drug though a week long investigation of my moral standing where several neighbors were questioned about my naked gardening activities in the privacy of my privacy fenced backyard. No one was challenged on their peeking Tom actions.
I am certain that there are files in various departments dealing with my proclivity to run around my own personal property in a decidedly natural state.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 24, 2016, 02:01:19 PM
I stand by my assessment of the LEO encounter based on previous events where I received a citation for public nuisance while skinny-dipping in an abandoned park and being drug though a week long investigation of my moral standing where several neighbors were questioned about my naked gardening activities in the privacy of my privacy fenced backyard. No one was challenged on their peeking Tom actions.


The public nuisance is often the "Law" enforcement who's job seems to be that of taking away freedom and ruling by fear and violence.

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on August 24, 2016, 04:07:44 PM
Just to balance the argument again, not all violence is by Police Officers. See  here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty) for unarmed officers killed whilst trying to keep the peace. I actually saw one of these brave men run over. In the case of the last entry hundreds, nay thousands of ordinary citizens turned out to the funeral to support the Police. It may be bad in the US but it ain't over here!

We honour these Officers at the National Memorial Arboretum in "The Beat". See  here (http://www.policerollofhonour.org.uk/memorial/arboretum/the_beat-art_1998.htm)
Some of the pictures show a rather bare landscape. It was new then and now is a much more mature site. This wonderful place includes memorials to the armed forces and mony non-military organisations. Well worth a visit if you are in the UK Midlands.


Davie  8)

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 24, 2016, 09:30:32 PM
Sixteen in the first 12 years of this century. Certainly not to make the matter trivial, but ONLY 16 and most had nothing to do with getting shot!?!

Then, there is a significant number that collapsed during a pursuit, or encounter. Is that diet, or an indication of the stress of the job? A bunch collapsed between the years 1905 to 1909.

Under “see also” the American deaths are listed. Each year the list is as long as the long total history of the UK.
What could the difference be? Americans are more violent? Drug laws creating crime and violence? Americans have more guns? Bad attitudes, and behaviors and isolated from the community reciprocates bad attitudes from the people?  Greater economic disparities, opportunity and less social net having effect over time? Poor training, overzealousness making risky behavior?

 Too bad the American rates are not tallied over all of the years. I’ll bet there is a spike beginning around 1970. I’d like to have the comparative number of civilians shot by police in the same period.

I wonder how many officers have been injured or seen death, or civilians (see we get the better designation) seen death, or injury, because somebody wasn’t wearing clothes? All of those crimes and violence and who gets caught up in the circus, like real damage has actually been done?
Jbee

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on August 24, 2016, 11:18:26 PM
I don't want to comment on American gun laws because I know these things are viewed very differently each side of the pond.  But I have to say that if someone's got a gun and is prepared to use it then they're far more likely to shoot someone or get shot in retaliation than if neither side had  a gun in the first place.

Peter
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 25, 2016, 12:01:42 AM
While the police are always whining and sniveling about those who were killed on the job (mostly from car crashes), their jobs are far less hazardous than most real men's jobs.  In the US, our trash collectors suffer 3x more on-the-job deaths per capita than police, but trash collectors NEVER hold big parades, tie up traffic, and have pipers morn their "roll of honor" for the good hardworking men who died on their job.  They hold a funeral, and go back to work.  They have REAL honest work to do.   Same with farmers, fishermen, miners, truckers, construction workers, loggers, etc. etc. etc.  Only the cops are always whining and sniveling on about their few who crashed a car on the way to get doughnuts.  Cry us a river. 
 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on August 25, 2016, 12:25:16 AM
With such bitterness against a whole group of people its just not worth arguing the point any further

Davie
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: atourist on August 25, 2016, 12:37:34 AM
All I can add to this thread is: it's lucky for us there isn't such a thing as the Off-Topic Police.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 25, 2016, 02:18:05 AM
All I can say is, if someone "catches" me out and about naked, I sincerely hope its a drug dealer, or garbage collector, or farm worker.  Anyone but a cop.  Only the cop would likely try to find reason to mess up my life.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on August 25, 2016, 08:27:19 AM
Wandering even further off topic - there was one canal lock in London which was frequented by druggies and which many people regarded with real trepidation.
However there was never any trouble at that location as the dealers took care that nothing happened which would require the police to be called.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on August 25, 2016, 12:49:58 PM
http://fox8.com/2016/08/24/elyria-woman-arrested-for-sitting-naked-on-her-front-porch/

Appears that in Cleveland the drug dealers get ignored but sitting out naked is worthy of arrest.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 25, 2016, 03:03:46 PM
it wasn't drug dealers who arrested and caged Stephen Gough for 10 years of his life for the legal activity of walking naked. 

Or here is today's story about extreme police violence that is done to citizens every day in the US.  Beaten and tazered for illegal crossing a street.  http://thefreethoughtproject.com/video-police-savagely-taser-mentally-ill-man-beating-batons-jaywalking/    But they are "honorable" men.  Just ask them.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: atourist on August 25, 2016, 03:42:14 PM
THIS IS A MESSAGE FROM THE OFF-TOPIC POLICE: COME OUT WITH YOUR HANDS UP. WE HAVE YOU ALL SURROUNDED.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 25, 2016, 05:31:17 PM
I enjoy the occasional topic drift. It can be fun but sometimes puzzling.  8)
Plus, you never know when something relevant or interesting will pop up.

Duane

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 25, 2016, 09:59:35 PM
I don't want to comment on American gun laws because I know these things are viewed very differently each side of the pond.  But I have to say that if someone's got a gun and is prepared to use it then they're far more likely to shoot someone or get shot in retaliation than if neither side had  a gun in the first place.

Peter
Yes and no. There is the obvious, as you state, but out here in the wild west, things have proven to be different. When two people have guns, or one doesn’t know if the other is carrying one for protection, there is a greater civility, no aggressive behavior, like say road rage, unless one of them is totally drunk, mentally ill and/or totally stupid.

As the bumper sticker says, ”Smith and Wesson the great equalizer.” If my person is about to get damaged by a large younger aggressive person, I’ll be happy to protect myself and others. When there is no one to protect me, which is nearly always, and as perpetrators make a point not to break laws in front of cops, or mostly others. I have a right not to walk in fear.  I definitely don’t want to get beaten and/or robbed and then see justice done to the a-hole that did it to me, which is rarely the result. That is NOT my first choice. In Arizona, we can carry a weapon unconcealed. We have to be licensed and trained to carry it in concealment, which makes it so it doesn’t make others uncomfortable.

I’m still trying to wrap my mind around Bobbies being unarmed. I don’t mind a cop carrying a holstered gun, as long as the cop doesn’t mind me having mine, but cops don’t like mutual respect. Everyone should be required to complete weapons training. Everyone needs to know exactly how destructive, how dangerous, the potential for use, how to avoid use, and what is proper safety. We need to see this to take away the romanticism, the bravado, and instill practical healthy fear and respect for weapons. Probably a high school requirement.

Every creep needs to know that anyone could be with a gun and a camera.

That being said, in my perfect world, where would I put my gun? I would be at a disadvantage. Think of the tanline that a belt with pistol would make, or worse, a shoulder holster! Maybe a small ankle strap? Guns are like clothing. :'(

Nearly always people are okay to be around. If I walk around naked and unarmed, am I asking for trouble? That's like telling a raped woman that she was asking for it.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 25, 2016, 11:00:13 PM

I’m still trying to wrap my mind around Bobbies being unarmed. I don’t mind a cop carrying a holstered gun, as long as the cop doesn’t mind me having mine, but cops don’t like mutual respect.
Jbee


There is an old saying, "To a carpenter, every problem is a nail."  When your solution is a hammer, then every problem needs to be hit.

Or. as Dilbert's porcupine put it, the solution to any problem is, "shoot them with quills." 

When cops are carrying guns their solution to every confrontation is "shoot them."  American cops shoot more people per month than UK cops shoot per century.   They are not safe around citizens when carrying guns, and should be disarmed.  They would then have to be more respectful of citizens.

Bob




Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: ric on August 26, 2016, 10:45:22 AM
theres probably more shots fired at police in the us in a year than there is in the uk in a century.


back to the national arberetum.... theres a little used nature reserve the other side (south?) of the river , its got a railway line running through it,  but its possible to have a naked wander there.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 26, 2016, 08:03:41 PM
Looked at the photos on "The Beat" website and it looks rather sparse with little in the way of natural shielding undergrowth. It's a wide open area.

What are the rules in the UK with regard to CO activities on public lands? Is it the same as anywhere else? Especially with regard to a memorial.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on August 26, 2016, 09:26:24 PM
The arboretum has only been open about 15 years. I think the part ric was referring is outside the arboretum. I think going naked within the memorial grounds would be insensitive, just as dressing as say a clown would be. It's a serious and thought provoking place and whilst many of us would like to naked everywhere this is not one of those places, at least not at the moment and I don't think the naturist community in general  would think otherwise.

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: ric on August 26, 2016, 10:08:02 PM
the nature reserve i referred to is one of the wildlife trusts, maybe staffordshire wildlife trust?  its 3 or 4 years ago that i was up that way,
the national arboretum is far too busy, its now a well established busy tourist trap, 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on August 27, 2016, 08:18:21 PM
Umm .....might I return from the seismic variety of topic drifts to comment on Safebare's experience with the police officer?

Quote
He noted that the woman who called in was particularly concerned that her 12 yo son was in the car with her when they passed
.
Blimey, how innocent can you get? Although I would believe anything is possible in the USA, that mum needs to get real!  How many 12 year old boys haven't experienced the many naked 'delights' that the internet porn department has to offer?  Is a fleeting glance of a middle aged naked man in the twilight so much more corrupting than the things that any 12 year old can see online? 

John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 27, 2016, 08:24:49 PM
Umm .....might I return from the seismic variety of topic drifts to comment on Safebare's experience with the police officer?

Quote
He noted that the woman who called in was particularly concerned that her 12 yo son was in the car with her when they passed
.
Blimey, how innocent can you get? Although I would believe anything is possible in the USA, that mum needs to get real!  How many 12 year old boys haven't experienced the many naked 'delights' that the internet porn department has to offer?  Is a fleeting glance of a middle aged naked man in the twilight so much more corrupting than the things that any 12 year old can see online? 

John

I must refer to any gym locker room situation. The boy just observed another male. Where's a problem?
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 29, 2016, 08:35:39 PM
My take on that scene by Safebare was that a mom saw a man on his property and he happened to be naked, which to her seemed out of place, so she felt compelled to "DO SOMETHING".

Unfortunately that involved showing her son her appropriate response to that. To bad for him.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Safebare on August 29, 2016, 10:12:25 PM
I agree. I don't think it's the sight of a nude man, but the knowledge that a man is nude in sight of her and her son. How will she explain it that will support her repressed since of modesty?
It also speaks to the locker room comment. Those locker room days are long gone. Seeing your peers in their natural state is no longer part of growing up. Hopefully the recent efforts to promote public body acceptance will bring innocence back to the young minds.  Free the nipple and the penis from the oppressive morality police.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 30, 2016, 12:42:08 AM
Quote from: Safebare
Those locker room days are long gone. Seeing your peers in their natural state is no longer part of growing up.

I was in a discussion on another forum and the subject of locker rooms came up. I was surprised from there and from my kids to discover that in most jurisdictions that PE coaches no longer require students to shower after class.

While there was some equivocating on that forum about reasons why, when I was in PE class, the concept of personal hygiene was intentionally taught to students as something you do for yourself and society. You don't walk around smelling like a locker room. Leave it there in the shower.

I don't know why that is the case. If it's time constraints or more body aversion in general. What better place  to teach about self esteem, hygiene and body image than in a PE class.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 30, 2016, 12:46:19 AM
I agree. I don't think it's the sight of a nude man, but the knowledge that a man is nude in sight of her and her son. How will she explain it that will support her repressed since of modesty?

I have observed that many adult nudists are those who were the most taught body shame by parents.  Perhaps this young man will be out running naked in the night before the year is out.

Quote
It also speaks to the locker room comment. Those locker room days are long gone. Seeing your peers in their natural state is no longer part of growing up. Hopefully the recent efforts to promote public body acceptance will bring innocence back to the young minds.  Free the nipple and the penis from the oppressive morality police.

Yes.  More exposure of naked human beings would reduce the sudden shock at seeing naked people to a level that is almost ordinary. 

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 30, 2016, 12:55:02 AM
Good point, Bob!

A young kid sees an adult doing chores on his property while naked. He may conclude that a normal looking man was knocking about in his yard nude and not making a big deal about it and that it is in fact ok and normal, contrary to what mommie says.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on August 30, 2016, 09:33:00 AM
When I was a member of a badminton club only two of us would bother to shower the others saying they would do so at home - why when the showers at the centre where so good?

Davie
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on August 30, 2016, 04:33:32 PM
Once again when I want to find something to add to my post I can't find it. So I'm sure Jbee, who seems to have lived during the "peace, love and rock n roll era" along with me will vouch for this. A meme posted on Facebook a few weeks ago mentioned the fact that those who didn't follow the hippy movement back in the day are now in charge. Without getting into too much detail all those regulations passed to protect the planet are now under attack as being bad for business. Corporate greed (don't even start the a conversation here about the epi-pen, too many family members have to rely on it) has taken over the economy. Organic foods, unless you buy them direct from a farmer are almost twice the price of factory grown. I could go on but I think you see the point.

Those in charge set the rules or at least try to make it seem that what they do is the right thing. I remember quite well those showers after PE, it was not only the expected but the norm. No one would go back to class smelling of locker room, sweat and physical exertion without being the brunt of jokes. When or why did this change? To me there is some deep rooted feeling from those in charge, perhaps from teasing in the locker room but with all the emphasis on math and sciences the arts, PE and the classes that made us well rounded people have gone by the wayside. So we eliminate art so no nudes are seen, music because it may influence our youth in a bad way and showers after PE because they may see each other naked.

I was in Wally World (Wal-Mart) only due to the time (after 10PM) and needs (light bulbs) or else I would not have patronized the corporate giant. Overheard were two mothers talking when one mentioned that her son needed body spray for after gym class. So instead of a shower hide the body odor with perfume? Have we regressed to the middle ages? I was so tempted to ask about showers but felt uncomfortable bringing the subject up with strangers.

My last few encounters although not completely positive at least were not negative. Most curiosity or indifference but no hostility. The 12 year olds mom would have a difficult time in a discussion about life. So another boy learns about sex on the streets, including odd birth control methods, and we end up with another teen pregnancy, because mommy is a prude and is appalled a man would actually walk around nude. Or maybe she's afraid he may turn gay? Ok, I'm ranting but for every step forward it seems there is a step and a half back.

At this age I am eligible for the Silver Sneakers program at our local exercise center. It's is a free membership provided by my healthcare company so I plan on using it this winter to stay in hiking/kayak shape for next season. On my tour I discovered that the shower room floor was hardly wet and the steam room was used by men in bathing suits! I guess I'm really going to upset the status quo when the weather gets cold! 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on August 30, 2016, 04:55:04 PM
I was one of those for whom school games and gym sessions were followed by communal showers (often involving competition for the shower head that had water coming out of it!!).

Try this for size: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/fashion/mens-style/mens-locker-room-designers-take-pity-on-naked-millennials.html?_r=0

Or this: http://www.newnownext.com/why-its-okay-that-i-dont-like-to-be-naked-in-the-locker-room/12/2015/

Perhaps summed up here: http://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences2/locker_room

peter
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 30, 2016, 06:49:33 PM
I am the older generation that grew up swimming naked at the YMCA and sharing a large communal shower at the school gym.  I didn't know that gays existed in those years.  We were afraid of girls, but not worried about being seen by other boys or men.

The change away from lack of concern about same sex nudity began in the 1960s, about the same time that I found out about gays.  My college roommate complained about gays in the college drama department, and he had to explain to me what that was about. 

Children today are taught that gay is common and acceptable, beginning in the 1st grade in many places.  The other side of that message is that they cannot escape sexual pressure in a room full of boys.  I'm sure its not PC to talk about the gay pressure on children in a negative way, but I'm also sure it has been a large part of the "shyness" which has stopped boys from being comfortable naked around other boys. 

Peter, I read those links and I'm not convinced.  Somehow I doubt that a pussyboy from the NY Times knows anything about anything farther out of NY than 148th street. The gay guy from Logo has more of an understanding of the problem because he admits being part of it.

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 30, 2016, 07:42:39 PM
Nudewalker: "So I'm sure Jbee, who seems to have lived during the "peace, love and rock n roll era" along with me will vouch for this."
Whah? Era? I didn't know that it ever ended. You've probably just been hanging around with the wrong crowd. ;D
I know what you mean. I lost my roots, tried different directions and trails and have now returned to my roots. Life is about change, but not throwing out the good stuff, or losing wisdom along the way.

Bob wrote, "the pussyboy from the NY Times."
We both had to laugh about that, really hard. You certainly  showed  a knack for throwing out the PC in a large way.  ;D That picture certainly does reek of "I'm gay, I'm a geek and I'm very happy about it" as the author intended. He might take pussyboy from the NY Times as a badge of honor.

I taught school and also spent a couple of years sub-teaching (early 2000's), often as the P.E. coach. None of the kids showered. They wouldn't risk vulnerability, or ridicule, or want to feel like the only one. In my high school years, we were required to shower as has been mentioned. The locker room unsupervised was sometimes torture with the older kids around. Towel snaps, rat tails, comments, kids still slow to develop public hair, pranks. I didn't see that when teaching. Well, then slowbie's would shoot up along with their confidence.

The reason most common to no longer require a shower is it has been looked on as akin to rape. Forcing children to disrobe is considered as a rape and the potential law suit, or outraged parents enforce that. A teacher wouldn't want to be looked upon as getting a kick out of the lesson. Most of the kids didn't smell TOO bad. BUT a few...
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on August 30, 2016, 09:25:50 PM
Bob wrote, "the pussyboy from the NY Times."
We both had to laugh about that, really hard. You certainly  showed  a knack for throwing out the PC in a large way.  ;D That picture certainly does reek of "I'm gay, I'm a geek and I'm very happy about it" as the author intended. He might take pussyboy from the NY Times as a badge of honor.

Yea, I don't do PC.  And yea, the NY pussyboys and their culture are a big part of the problem, not the solution to the problem.


Quote
The reason most common to no longer require a shower is it has been looked on as akin to rape. Forcing children to disrobe is considered as a rape and the potential law suit, or outraged parents enforce that.  Jbee

Back before homosexuality was being promoted by schools, the phrase "don't drop the soap" was a joke in the gym locker room.   Our NY Times pussyboy puts it in the illustration at the top of his article.   One doesn't even have to read to know where his mind is.

Parents now worry that a boy dropping the soap won't be "akin to" rape.   Boys today need more protection in the boys locker room than they would need in the girl's locker room.   And many parents are also concerned about dykes in the girl's locker room as well.

Bob





Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on August 31, 2016, 04:27:09 PM
Nudewalker: "So I'm sure Jbee, who seems to have lived during the "peace, love and rock n roll era" along with me will vouch for this."
Whah? Era? I didn't know that it ever ended. You've probably just been hanging around with the wrong crowd. ;D
I know what you mean. I lost my roots, tried different directions and trails and have now returned to my roots. Life is about change, but not throwing out the good stuff, or losing wisdom along the way.

Yes Jbee, I was hanging out with the wrong crowd; mainly a wife that had no understanding of what life could be so I lost 10 or so years. As the t-shirts suggest "Life is Good " despite the aches and pains that come with age.


Yea, I don't do PC.  And yea, the NY pussyboys and their culture are a big part of the problem, not the solution to the problem.-Bob.

 And there in lies the rub, we try so hard to be PC but fail in common sense. I was much like you in college, knew of gays but never seen, met or was approached by one. In fact, despite twelve years of Catholic school, many spent as an alter boy, I was never approached. A brother in law of mine once lamented, "Am I that ugly that no one ever approached me?". It's much like nudity with parents; if they don't see it then we don't have to explain it and it will go away. Just like sex education, the parents don't want schools doing it but what kind of job are they doing? And as our schools continue to have shackles and handcuffs placed on them by parents threatening lawsuits how can there ever be a common ground.  As Jbee mentioned in his answer to my post; "not throwing out the good stuff or losing wisdom along the way."!
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 31, 2016, 05:04:14 PM
Hopefully the recent efforts to promote public body acceptance will bring innocence back to the young minds.

Recent efforts? In your area? Of what nature?

I am going to assume you are referring groups like Topfree Equal Rights Assoc., GoTopless and other ad hoc groups that push for rescinding laws that allow men to wander about without shirts and punish women that do. Are there any other initiatives that operate at the local level?

Hopefully reasoned and practical efforts to present this idea as an outright double standard would go farther than an in your face condemnation of “old puritan ideology” from an activist point of view. If you wish to remain bogged down in a comfortable tradition, so be it. It doesn’t mean you get to chain everyone down with you.

The GoTopless event of GoTopless Day just occurred last Sunday. On Hampton Beach, Venice Beach and more than 30 cities in the US, women, and men, went peacefully topless. Hopefully no one was screaming or ranting about what should be a normal activity.

This woman (https://breastsarehealthy.wordpress.com/) in New Hampshire has the right approach. I have mentioned this site before and I check it every now and then. Her attitude seems to be I want to go hiking, walking, bike riding et al, oh and by the way I enjoy doing these things without a shirt on. OK!

A fresh breeze of simple plain common sense and honesty. Quite the contrast to the neurotic articles from the NYC press.

Duane

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 31, 2016, 05:13:52 PM
All I can say after reading those is, I can’t help but get an overwhelming sense of people yearning to be a victim or at least special in some way. As my mother-in-law would say, “Oh! Poor baby!” I realize it is second nature to most of us but we really need to stop seeing the universe as revolving around us.

People are have a crises from not "enjoying" their visit to the locker room? A locker room is a locker room, not a social scene! I guess, only in big cities do folks invent things to get upset about.

Quote from: Jbee
The locker room unsupervised was sometimes torture with the older kids around. . . . then slowbie's would shoot up along with their confidence.

Any gardener or arborist will tell you that you cannot stake out a plant forever. At some point you pull the stakes out and let the tree stand in the wind. This is what strengthens the tree. It has to stand on it’s own.

An orthopedist will tell you the same thing. You have to exercise the body to build strong bones. Stress produces an ability to withstand stress.

The same goes for the psyche and self esteem. Protected forever these will be overwhelmed. Properly taught tools on how to deal with adversity only do good.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on August 31, 2016, 07:57:18 PM

Quote from: Jbee
The locker room unsupervised was sometimes torture with the older kids around. . . . then slowbie's would shoot up along with their confidence.

Any gardener or arborist will tell you that you cannot stake out a plant forever. At some point you pull the stakes out and let the tree stand in the wind. This is what strengthens the tree. It has to stand on it’s own.

An orthopedist will tell you the same thing. You have to exercise the body to build strong bones. Stress produces an ability to withstand stress.

The same goes for the psyche and self esteem. Protected forever these will be overwhelmed. Properly taught tools on how to deal with adversity only do good.

Duane
The tree usually outgrows the stake quite naturally, it absorbs or knocks it over, but sometimes a gale comes by and rips it out like an umbrella. You get a bent tree, a dead tree, sometimes you can place it back as long as the roots are strong. And then there is the art of trimming, pruning.

I really like the metaphor, but well, you know what I mean. You did Boy Scouts.

Incidentally, I sent PM's to you and Ken.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on August 31, 2016, 09:01:44 PM
Yes, protecting a child forever does more damage than good.

Bailing them out of trouble has the same effect. It doesn't mean I love them any less. In fact it's more.

Duane


Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on September 01, 2016, 01:26:15 AM
Children have to fail from time to time and they have to take risks. The skill with risk is for the child to perceive the activity is more risky than it is.

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on September 27, 2016, 01:05:51 AM
This last week has been kinda weird, kinda different.

For one, DF's brother was in town and we took him on several hikes...WITH Clothes on!!!
I hadn't been hiking with clothes on in years. It was weird. I definitely turned to DF and told her how much better it would be to not be sweating under the clothing going up Miller Canyon in the Huachuca Mtns. We saw no one, nada. It was however handy where the scratchy vegetation began to cover over the trail and then shorts didn't seen enough with the holly-like leaves on the bushes. We may need coverings for a few stretches up there when we naked backpack more extensively.

Then there were the climbs up Mt. Bigalow and Kellogg, where the windchill at 9000 plus feet was cutting through us. Later I put on a windbreaker over a t-shirt to handle a well shaded other trail. I was reminded that nude hiking is affected by seasons and elevation and this was the alternative. The others were commenting on the cold. I also might have had a different experience, if I had started nude.

One day, as I sat in my living room writing, I heard voices through the open window. Soon, here was Bailey peaking in, her nose to screen, "Are ya home?" She stopped by with my neighbor, whom she was visiting. "Do I need to find some pants?" "Not for me." "I don't care." So, I received my guests in the realm of a more perfect world. They stuck around about an hour, but you know, every so often, I would feel uncomfortable being the only nude in the room. When one was curious about an exercise machine on the floor, I might have explained it better by demonstrating, but the position would have made me feel exposed. When they both sat on either side of me on the couch so as to see something on the computer, I put the remote keyboard over my crotch to feel more comfortable.
A couple of weeks before, I had an uncomfortable sense for a few moments, after working nude aside a woman friend for several hours, we came in to have a late lunch and she got dressed. For a moment, in the middle of lunch, getting up to get something for us in the kitchen, I felt naked, even though she showed no reaction that anything was in disarray.

Apparently, I still have hangups surfacing, when I'm the only one nude. I may not be the person who would stay comfortable in the more perfect clothing optional world without other nudes around.
Oh well,
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: totaltanjim on October 30, 2016, 07:58:22 PM
I am new to this site but not to being a nudist/naturist.
The topic is encountering textiles while being nude out in public.
This has happened to me many times while out hiking as well as a couple of times at work, a few times while getting the paper in the morning, not to mention the thousands who have seen me while riding in seven Los Angeles WNBR events.

This particular encounter occurred about two years ago in an area I have been hiking for more than 15 years. It is not known as a clothing optional area but with using common sense you can hike cloths free without a problem.
When I arrived at the trail head there was already another car parked there, so I knew there was someone on the trail. That meant starting my hike in shorts. About 10 minuets into my hike, I passed the woman walking her dogs heading back to her car. We exchanged greetings and as soon as she was out of site off came the shorts. After about another 10 minuets, I received a call from one of my nieces. I stopped to talk to her (she is autistic so I do not like to rush a call from her), I was standing there looking out over the lake and down the trail when I became aware of someone behind me.

I know, at this point you are thinking I should have been watching back up the trail, but since vehicles can not access the area due to a locked gate, I knew there was no way anyone could get to my location in the time I was stopped.

Well it turned out there were actually three people standing there outside of there vehicle with rather amused expressions on there face as I became aware of there presence. The vehicle was a Los Angeles County Sheriffs SUV with two male and one female deputies. I did put on my shorts before walking over to them. (I decision in hind site I regret.)

Well to not make this long story any longer it turns out they had talked to the woman with the dogs and she told them there was another person up ahead, but since I had my shorts on at the time naturally she never said anything about a nude hiker so they knew I had covered up. They were there checking out a report of people illegally camping in the area. They did question why I was nude, but at no time said anything that made me feel uncomfortable or worried.
Regardless how others may want to interpret this encounter, for me it was a very positive experience.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on October 30, 2016, 11:59:08 PM
What is the law in California regarding nudity in wilderness areas? We know it ok in National Parks as long as you cover up if someone asks.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: totaltanjim on October 31, 2016, 01:03:14 AM
Where I was hiking is located in the Angeles National Forest. You are correct in that the laws for hiking in National Forest/Park lands is cover if asked, however if local law prohibits nudity, that is what will be applied on Federal lands.

In the case of Los Angels County, several years ago the then Sheriff wrote a letter in response to an inquiry about nude hiking that basically said the same thing, in that as long as you cover when asked, it was OK. 

The problem of course is since there is no actual law nor court case setting precedence, you can never be sure how a particular deputy may respond to the situation. 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on October 31, 2016, 06:41:35 AM
What is the law in California regarding nudity in wilderness areas? We know it ok in National Parks as long as you cover up if someone asks.
Duane

California state law does not prohibit nudity.  Numerous California courts have held that just being naked is legal per se.  Armed with those court decisions, many people in San Francisco began going around the city naked so the City of San Francisco passed a City Ordinance against being naked except for some occasions.  The California State Parks system (which owns many beaches) has a park regulation prohibiting nudity.  But most of California does not have local ordinances (laws) against nudity, so only the state law applies -- nude is generally legal while minding your own business.  Federal government land such as National Forests and National Parks generally enforce local law, so naked would be legal on federal government land in much of California too.  They may ask you to cover up if someone else complains, but you won't get arrested for being naked. 

 


Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on October 31, 2016, 08:31:04 PM
Quote from: totaltanjim
. . . several years ago the then Sheriff wrote a letter in response to an inquiry about nude hiking that basically said the same thing . . .

Was this the Cahill letter, of Cahill Policy fame. I had heard that particular policy was no longer "a policy" and naturists were cautioned to be extra careful.

I agree the encounter would have been a positive one also if it had happened to me.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on November 01, 2016, 01:37:40 AM
No, the Cahill policy was another issue, relating to California state parks. Unfortunately, and somewhat similarly to the ban on nudity in San Francisco, I believe naturists handled events very badly and ended up with a serious defeat.

This is from the happy days, now lost:
http://www.bayareanaturists.org/cahill.html
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on November 01, 2016, 05:25:53 PM
It seems that no matter the issue, when one side gains an advantage, one or both will always overestimate the strength of their position. Attempts are made to take advantage in practice or  to further the gain and end up with events backfiring.

Unfortunate.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on November 02, 2016, 10:20:58 AM
http://nakedpublicdares.com/daresub.doc/anbritdares/anbritwlk1.htm

Found this on the naked dares site - the poster mentions frequent problem-free encounters on a wide-ranging and often naked walk through France. Kudos!
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on November 02, 2016, 03:55:18 PM
We've noted before the difference in acceptance from hikers in remote places to the average people you meet in a park or beach.

Hours of naked walking on a 600 mile trek! Nice!

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on November 02, 2016, 05:34:11 PM
That's Brian Johnson. I don't know if he still has all his information up on the Internet, but he used to have lots of stuff about walking and canoeing in Europe, and also in the USA. I think he wrote a book about hiking the Pacific Crest Trail. Yes, here it is (wonder if there's any mention of nudity):
https://www.amazon.com/Pacific-Crest-Trail-Cicerone-Guides/dp/1852845880

Hikers on the Appalachian Trail have a saying "You walk your own walk" meaning that whatever gets you over the trail is your business, and you don't criticize anyone else, though you don't necessarily expect them to copy you either. Basically the farther you get from the trailhead, the more you tolerate other people, or expect to be tolerated by them.

My experience in Austria on the Naked European Walking Tour was that people might frown at you, but they let you go your own way. A group of us are planning to go again next year; maybe I should start a thread about that.

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 02, 2016, 05:52:13 PM
How much experience with protective "what about the kids" attitudes have you encountered in the European tooleys? That's my only concern, or hangup to letting it hang out. They can get terribly uncomfortable and have extra legal standing (all incorrect, of course) Have those gone differently?
Jbee 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on November 02, 2016, 05:58:20 PM
Some day I may get the chance to hike some of the more well known trails to experience first hand how people react to my dress or lack of dress. There have been those "looks" on some trails. Since my gear does not include the latest moisture wicking technology or reek of the brand names from REI. And I also have to add that it was near a more urban area and lets just say that the lack of knowledge showed once they were on the trail.

When the state of Pennsylvania toyed with user fees for their park system I advocated a sliding scale feeling the less equipment the less impact. Therefore a nude hiker with a simple backpack should pay less than the pseudo outdoor person with a big budget!
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on November 03, 2016, 03:59:10 PM
How much experience with protective "what about the kids" attitudes have you encountered in the European tooleys? That's my only concern, or hangup to letting it hang out. They can get terribly uncomfortable and have extra legal standing (all incorrect, of course) Have those gone differently?
Jbee

European tooleys??? There's a Tooley Street in London where various interesting things have happened, but apart from that I'm mystified.

Here's a picture from the Naked European Walking Tour in 2014. It's possible that the woman and girl are holding hands for extra security, but nobody is yelling and screaming.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28291527/Naturism/eita.jpg
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on November 03, 2016, 04:02:30 PM
JohnP, there is a post in the Suggestions from Jbee prodding Stuart & Karla to pony up a report from their trip to the NEWT in 2014. So maybe if you did it might be a catalyst.

Still no report.  ;) (imagine the Jeopardy timer tune and/or crickets chirping) I know there is a lot going on and keeping this forum cranking along takes up energy and time. Hopefully the events haven't faded and we will see something soon.  ::)

I always enjoy checking to see if anything has shown up as it gives me the opportunity to browse the site's galleries again. There is a lot to see and read.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 03, 2016, 05:41:51 PM
Tooleys are backwoods, or less frequented, less enforced areas.

Since you all were boldly cruising these realms, I wondered if there was a sampling of the European mindset of people with kids encountering nudes. Here in USA, there is an assumption that the children need to be shielded. There European Alps, could it be different? There is one pic of Karla here: http://www.freerangenaturism.com/Alps/001_Klausenberg/klausenberg.htm passing what appears to be young people (maybe they just look small because of distance) seemingly without alarm, or even much concern. This is another. I'm curious about textile attitude there. The more samplings of encounters, the better the conclusion. Without much to go on yet, I collect anecdotes.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on November 03, 2016, 07:07:12 PM
I suspect the attitude over here (UK rather than Europe) is much the same as there, JBee. Lots of "what about the children" whenever nudity is mentioned, and accounts of children giggling and pointing at events like the WNBR. As usual it's the parents, or others, who think there's "something wrong" and use children to emphasise their opinion (which saves them having to justify or rationalise it themselves). Children don't know there's anything wrong so aren't in the least bit worried.

That's the usual generality dealt with. On the British NAturism website there's this: http://www.bn.org.uk/community/files/file/740-bn-children-deserve-better-report-2016/, and if you look at the discussion hee http://www.naturist-corner.net/community/index.php?topic=21395.0 there's quite a bit of anecdotal "this isn't a problem" evidence - though of course as it's from naturists it should probably be dismissed as biased  :-\

peter
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on November 03, 2016, 07:31:03 PM
Stuart and Karla did go on the NEWT one year, but it wasn't 2014. I'd know!

My friend Milt Lewis wrote up the 2014 trip for N magazine, mostly illustrated with pictures by me. As you know, JBG, the Naturist Society only pays for pictures, but I gave Milt half the money.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 03, 2016, 08:35:34 PM
Thank-you, Peter. I don't think that the problem of bias is as strong coming from naturists is a strong as the bias of textile obsessionists. Which to trust? Certainly not the the irrational, raised like that and not questioning people in concern. The naturists who have had first hand obvious results in practice, I'd trust their observations better. There are positional attitudes on both ends of the spectrum, of course, but....

All are rightly concerned for children and parents tend to get fearful and then irrational in their reaction and thinking. That's why I'm cautious around people with children. Some have the potential to react and attack in some way, like poisoning their children even more on the spot, or going back to the society at large to make a fight of it. Children can perceive behavior as something being wrong, even if their parents are only confused by the encounter, and that unknown creates surprise and fear.

The "this isn't a problem" in the naturist's opinion and anecdote during social nudity isn't counterbalanced. There are no problems caused, except by wrong and fears within the parental figures, elsewhere. The studies support this, and professional psych community knows this, at least those who have taken the trouble to look into the issues. The first BN article nails it. 

Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 03, 2016, 08:37:09 PM
Stuart and Karla did go on the NEWT one year, but it wasn't 2014. I'd know!

My friend Milt Lewis wrote up the 2014 trip for N magazine, mostly illustrated with pictures by me. As you know, JBG, the Naturist Society only pays for pictures, but I gave Milt half the money.
I give it back to pay my membership fees and the rest is for NAC. Makes me feel good.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on November 03, 2016, 09:36:30 PM
On the subject of children and nudity my opinion is that children are not traumatised by seeing naked people but they are by their parents' reaction.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on November 04, 2016, 04:08:45 PM
I believe the post I found was from 2014 referring to a trip they did in 2013.
There was one photo in the galleries from the trip.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on November 04, 2016, 04:30:14 PM
Back when I was a Scoutmaster of a Boy Scout troop (in New Mexico, USA) I was often taking the boys on a hike in the mountains.   I never took them to a nearby hot springs in the National Forest because of fear that some parents would object to them seeing naked people, or getting naked themselves.   The McCauley hot spring was one of my favorite personal destinations, but with Scouts I worried that some parents would complain.  There was another troop which hiked to the hot spring every year.  Their parents didn't seem to mind the kids seeing naked people.  Perhaps I should have been more bold.  Dealing with parents can be tricky.  My opinion was that it would benefit Boy Scouts to swim naked in a public spring, but I was never confident enough in the other parents. 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on November 04, 2016, 04:42:53 PM
Back when I was a Scoutmaster of a Boy Scout troop (in New Mexico, USA) I was often taking the boys on a hike in the mountains.   I never took them to a nearby hot springs in the National Forest because of fear that some parents would object to them seeing naked people, or getting naked themselves.   The McCauley hot spring was one of my favorite personal destinations, but with Scouts I worried that some parents would complain.  There was another troop which hiked to the hot spring every year.  Their parents didn't seem to mind the kids seeing naked people.  Perhaps I should have been more bold.  Dealing with parents can be tricky.  My opinion was that it would benefit Boy Scouts to swim naked in a public spring, but I was never confident enough in the other parents.
If you were that cautious, just think what other more timid souls might avoid.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on November 04, 2016, 05:22:38 PM
While in Scouts we were at a couple places where a few of the boys saw naked people or topless women. On a backpacking trip to Havasupai Falls in the Grand Canyon and another backpacking trip to Arizona Hot Springs where they were able to go up to the springs. We simply warned them that it was possible and if they did see naked people we told them to behave properly and not embarass the people or themselves.

I am not aware of anything that came of it. We tried to teach the boys the right way to behave out in public as a member of society. We had a policy of the troup being a "boy led" troup. We ran into some difficulties but the intent was that they learn through their own efforts with guidance from us. We lost a few boys from the troup over the years because some parents were uncomfortable with that philosophy. But not many. That always made me feel better about the time I spent in the organization.

We were actually more concerned about the Arizona Hot Springs, not for the nudity, but because it is a spring where the brain eating amoeba "Nagleria Fowleri" has infested the water. We made sure to tell them to not get water in their eyes, ears or mouth. That was a bigger worry than seeing a naked person. That nasty bugger would actually destroy your brain as opposed to what some parents feared about kids seeing naked bodies.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on November 04, 2016, 05:27:57 PM
Its a possibility that kids will see naked people of a walk or perhaps on a beach. I think that's no big deal. However if they are taken with the intent to either see or have them take part in nude activity - then the Safeguarding mafia will descend and depending on the intent of the taker, then perhaps there may well  be cause for concern. 

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on November 04, 2016, 05:46:10 PM
The Safeguarding Mafia! I got a robot call last night but thankfully due to the poor quality of our answering machine the only thing I heard was a young girl who identified herself as being twelve stating she was too young to see a naked man. Sorry there is not much more to add as to the call but I would imagine it had to do with trans-genders using the bathroom they identify with as to their sexual orientation or disposition. There is a fear on my part, perhaps unfounded, that despite the results of this election many rights will be trampled along with any hope of nude acceptance.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 04, 2016, 08:18:54 PM
The Safeguarding Mafia! I got a robot call last night but thankfully due to the poor quality of our answering machine the only thing I heard was a young girl who identified herself as being twelve stating she was too young to see a naked man. Sorry there is not much more to add as to the call but I would imagine it had to do with trans-genders using the bathroom they identify with as to their sexual orientation or disposition. There is a fear on my part, perhaps unfounded, that despite the results of this election many rights will be trampled along with any hope of nude acceptance.
Oh wonderful....
Organized funding lumping homophobia into nude issues, using the "What about the kids" argument!!! There are now legal court actions beginning, to settle this question of transgender interaction, which most likely will help our interests. BUT, that kind of propaganda could be very damaging. I don't know how you all stand on the gay rights, which seem to be coming, but maybe we need to organize with LGBT etc. They have their sh.. together and generally accept body freedom with basically the same enemies as we. On the other hand, trying to crack the eggs that respond to "wholesome" with a "wholesome" body attitude, might be a wrong association, as they tend to see gay stuff as negative behavior.

We are dealing with a minority having influence over majority. They tend to not have much effect after the truth is told. They get more radical, more positional, but their numbers don't grow. I hope that your hunch and fears are incorrect.

Now, what can be done in the meantime? Can we contact these rabble-rousers someway? Make them think tha their tact may be losing support?
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on November 05, 2016, 09:55:42 AM
On the Scout experience - a photographer I used to know once took a young lady to the woods for some unclothed photography (we're talking back to the early '70s here). Things were going well with her posing variously on a fallen tree, when a Scout troop hiked through the clearing, marching between photographer and model. They kept strictly eyes front and nothing was said. On the photographer's darkroom wall for years afterwards was a series of shots of naked girl on tree with a line of Scouts passing in front of her.

Peter
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on November 05, 2016, 12:05:05 PM
My wife was a Cub Leader. Quite a few years ago at one camp they took the Cubs for a late evening walk to tire them out before bed. En route they passed a car with a courting couple doing what comes naturally. There were cries of, "Akela, what are those people doing?" Replies on the lines of, "Never mind" and "hurry along" were made. None of the kids suffered any trauma but I wonder now if they ever think back to the event. I bet the courting couple do, and I bet they were more traumatised than the kids.

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on November 05, 2016, 02:30:49 PM
How times have changed.

I've red a story of three Scouts who between the wars go to their District Commissioner for a swimming test, he having a swimming pool. He tells them to hurry up and get undressed and not to cover up as they are all men together. Two strip off and the third does so eventually. Two jump in the pool and again the third hesitates. Stop messing about and get in shouted the Commissioner and pushes the boy into the pool. The boy grabs the side gets out grabs his clothes runs off and if never seen again.

Imagine that today, outraged parents, Police, social workers, the press. .. don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning the Commissioners actions which reflect a different time which wasn't all bad

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on November 05, 2016, 02:31:42 PM
A couple of years ago our hiking group was at Little Rock Pond on the Long Trail in Vermont; some of us hiked in over the hills, and the rest came in by the short route from the road. While we were enjoying the pond, a very polite young man came along the trail and asked us if we'd please cover up or get into the water, as he had to lead a group of boys from a summer camp past us, to reach the spot where they planned to camp. So we obliged, and the kids came past, peeping as they went but not seeing much. So we thought that was an amusing interlude, but then a few minutes later back came the young fellow, sheepishly saying that the campsite wasn't where he thought it was, and he had to take the boys back the way they came. But then he said (obviously a little frustrated) "Oh, you don't need to cover up. It won't hurt 'em." And he added "If I weren't with the kids, I'd join you. In fact people say that a few years ago, you could be naked all the time at our camp."

So the kids passed by again, and I'm afraid that was the end of the incident. It wasn't until a minute later that my slowing brain delivered the name of what had to be the camp: it was Farm and Wilderness, run by Quakers. I know they kept up the option of nudity into this millennium, because I met one of their leaders at the Eastern Naturist Gathering some years back and he confirmed it. I recall saying "I'm impressed that you've held onto your innocence in the present age of suspicion", and he said they were trying to hold the line there. Unfortunately the world has apparently won that battle.
https://farmandwilderness.org/about-us/our-quaker-roots/

I found an article that talks about nudity at Farm and Wilderness:
http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/nature-and-nurture/Content?oid=2138038
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 05, 2016, 06:46:25 PM
It seems that that old PC consideration was at play. The lack of clothing excluded the Latino and Muslim kids. It is obvious to me that the Latino and Muslim kids and/or parents excluded themselves, up until the point of the nudity ban. Now, everyone has a religious and mostly cultural edict imposed on them. If they are teaching older, or new to them, values and awarenesses to urban/suburban kids, then naturism should be a part of it. HArummph!

It was Quakers who demonstrated in protest in England nude. People who lived in nature and intimately with it, bathed in rivers, lived in small, often one room, log cabins as they homesteaded, didn't have the sense of over inhibited behavior. There is a blanket of Victorian era rewriting of history, I suspect. The change in culture at the camp being written about is unusual. It has not been recorded generally in other places in our culture. The change happened and after a while it was assumed that things have always been like that.

The "playing Indian" thing was offensive to me, too. There is an attitude that people are stealing Native American culture. I see that as mostly bunk. For example, a Native American practices in a very structured frame of ritual. White kids, and Rainbow Family, etc. have adapted aspects of another culture, another spiritual system. These practices have value. It is no more unreasonably for a non-NAtive to adapt NAtive practices than for a Native to adapt Christianity, or anything else. We are free to try out any religious or spiritual practice, adapt it or reject it, piecemeal or wholesale. Human beings have been doing these things for millennia. These things change like language changes, especially without a written language. Playing Indian creates incorrect impressions of what Indian does, but throwing the babay out with the bath water is going too far. Seven generations ago, I have a Lokota medicine chief as an ancestor. I believe that it would be foolish to say that the current generation would produce something the same. An illiterate man who lived in the plains of the 1800's just couldn't think and relate like a man living on a reservation today. It is the nature of things to change and we often ignore that much of what is hasn't always been like that. Look at the Boy Scouts, The Weblo designation, the many Native American connotations and celebration.

Cripe, I have a sweat in my backyard. It is used adapting any manner of traditional practices, Nordic, Native American, etc. There is what comes naturally as well. I relate to nature in my own way, as did all of the multitudes of Native tribes. Passing a feather at a circle often works better than Robert's Rules. DF and I have experimented with vision quest, which is in many cultures and also happens naturally. We have used four directions for refection, Actual Native songs are song which are lead by those trained by elders, but we are not playing Indian. There is something expressed and heartfelt. You are to sing only four songs, but who really cares, who isn't wrapped in tradition. I am told that you don't use a traditional native sweat nude, that that is disrespectful. I suspect that that is an authentic tradition originating only in the last 150 years, but I put that aside. We use it nude and if someone finds that disrespectful then they may wear pants, or cover their sick shame in any way. Just don't take my spiritual relationships away from me, ie. be naked to relate infinitely better.

Stealing names, misrepresenting a culture, racism, okay, there are limits.

There are organizations that recreate historic culture to explore history, roots, and live. Medieval cultural knowledge especially sword fighting has been growing, not because of book learning, but because active hands-on use of the weapons teaches. Active role-play teaches social schemes. There is a place for role-play. That is how kids learn, by doing. Playing Indian, or playing white guy, that's okay, but it is best to get some authentic resources as foundation. It is best to teach respect for the diversity.
Looks like a great camp concept has some poor leadership, as of late.
Jbee
 


 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on November 05, 2016, 10:57:35 PM
I just got another robot call with the same kind of message. This time it was a man worried about his wife and daughters in a restroom. Funny part, it was against the GOP candidate.

Here is a link to a newspaper article concerning the first call I received.http://www.wvgazettemail.com/news-election/20161104/scared-child-robocall-outrages-dem-candidates-in-wv
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: ric on November 06, 2016, 10:45:41 AM
how would one know that a trans gender person was in the wrong restroom ? ,will they be employing door persons to inspect your your genitals and/or birth ceftificate to make sure your crapping in the right toilet ?

i assume the concern is about someone born male , now appearing to be a woman using womens toilets?   dont these facilities have individual toilet cubicles?


got to say that from over here there appear to be more serious issues with american society that need addressing.... or is this issue being deliberatly blown up to take attention from those other issues?
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on November 06, 2016, 03:28:58 PM
how would one know that a trans gender person was in the wrong restroom ? ,will they be employing door persons to inspect your your genitals and/or birth ceftificate to make sure your crapping in the right toilet ?


I always enjoyed the common sense shared restroom at my favorite CO resort, Valley View Hot Spring in Colorado.   The restroom is also the dish washing sink for campers, and the community bulletin board. 

After going there for several decades I see no need to have separate toilet facilities for men and women.   It seems silly when at other nudist resorts that men and women soak naked together in the hot tub, wander around naked all day, and then go into separate rooms to wash their hands or pee.  The whole controversy is ridiculous. 

Bob

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on November 06, 2016, 04:01:17 PM
Quite a few naturist clubs I've visited have joint lavatory facilities. Some have the urinal slightly separate. What's the problem?

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on November 06, 2016, 04:56:24 PM
Quite a few naturist clubs I've visited have joint lavatory facilities. Some have the urinal slightly separate. What's the problem?

Davie  8)
So do most restaurants and hotels in France, the urinals usually being discreetly partitioned from the hand washing area and/or the row of cubicles.
This usually causes some slight surprise to Englishwomen the first time they enter the area and see a man washing his hands in sight of the cubicle doors.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 06, 2016, 05:44:09 PM
This sounds like locker room use. Where people change costumes and shower, are seen and see other human bodies without cover. "I'm only twelve. I'm not old enough to see a man naked." This child has been obviously conned and been convinced into perversion by perverted parents. It is hard to imagine parents doing such a thing to a mere child. There aught to be a law to prevent people from installing fear and disgust of humanity into children. What's next, bonding feet, genital mutilation, burkas?!? 

This incident happened in Washington State and was robo called in West Virginia, there is a national conspiracy to subvert the very fabric of humanity in this country! The perverts are everywhere, thinking up ways to demonize and en-cage, imprison us in a most fundamental way. This is evil I tell ya!
Jbee :o
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on November 07, 2016, 12:44:22 AM
I was wondering if anyone in our church group would bring up those calls since it seems that opinions are as varied as could be expected. At first there seemed to be an agreement among most that men have no reason to be in the woman's locker room but then another voice spoke up and said they had listened to the call and stated it was "obviously a child actor reading from a script" and the second call was in response to a local television story and made while it was still fresh in our minds. And opinion ended  split; however we have a number in the group that have traveled to Europe and are familiar with co-ed bathrooms, topless and nude beaches and the overall attitude toward the body there. The telling part according to those who were upset by the call was that the police were not called.

West Virginia is a rather odd collection of people now. Both panhandles have enough exposure to big population centers to have more of an open mind, along with the north central part near the university. The rest of the state seems to be mostly Bible Belt types as far as my travels have let me to believe. I'm sure those calls will have an impact in those counties. 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on November 07, 2016, 01:39:45 AM
Quite a few naturist clubs I've visited have joint lavatory facilities. Some have the urinal slightly separate. What's the problem?
Davie  8)

When I vacationed at Cap d'Agde a few years ago the restrooms on the beach were separated.  Naked men and women came off the beach and went into separate rooms.  My wife had to come out and ask me how she was supposed to use the "squat" style plumbing, face toward the wall or away from the wall.  I had no idea.  "Whatever works," I said.

I have also been to Pagan events in the US where a single toilet room is shared by everyone.  Cubicles, and showers with common dressing area.  Nobody seems to mind. 

What seems to be the biggest complaint is where they have separated men vs. women toilet rooms and then have the "wrong" kind of people in each one.  My own experience convinces me that if we just had one common room (At Cap d'Agde, Wal-Mart, and elsewhere) everyone would get used to it in about 5 minutes and that would end the problems.

Bob

 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on November 07, 2016, 09:24:16 AM
The ladies showers were our club meets were being repaired, so everyone used the mens which meant going passed the urinals. Generally speaking the men were more concerned about this than women.

We found some toilets abroad with separate entrances for each gender which then entered a common area!! Daft.

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on November 07, 2016, 11:47:02 AM
While the exposed flesh aspect of using the facilities may not be a problem for naturists, not everyone wants to share the experience of evacuating bodily waste.

Peter
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on November 07, 2016, 02:41:37 PM
While the exposed flesh aspect of using the facilities may not be a problem for naturists, not everyone wants to share the experience of evacuating bodily waste.
Peter

I suppose its all what people are used to.   The Roman Empire often constructed public toilets in conversational semicircles at their "baths" so that people could sit and chat about the day's events while taking care of body functions.  In pagan Brittan the outhouse toilets were often long affairs with several "holes" to be shared by all the neighbors.   But today's homes are often now constructed with a locking door on the bedroom, a locking door on the bathroom inside the locked bedroom, and a locking door on a tiny toilet cubicle inside the locked bathroom.  You can't be too private for activity that is the same as everyone else.

Western "civilized" people are just not used to it.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on November 07, 2016, 04:25:45 PM
Two occasions come to mind with the bathroom/shower issues. First was in the seventies where the factory I worked at hired the first female workers in the production area. On the first day a group of five came into the locker room to shower after work. I directed one female to a nearby empty locker and continued to undress and then led her to the communal shower. Some of the men already in there covered their genitals, rinsed off the soap and left. The rest of us, with two females present, continued about our usual routine and talked about the work day. The next day a portable shower was set up for the females due to the number of wives that called the union hall to complain.

The other time was at a concert venue where the line for the ladies room extended quite a way outside of the door. So a good number of women decided to use the men's facility. Unlike individual urinals there was a troth that ran the length of two walls and a number of stalls with toilets. Also unlike most venues the stalls were only walls, no doors. As my girlfriend at the time noted, "when you gotta go you gotta go!".

As Bob noted, "it is all in what your used to" when it comes to those things. Even my wife wants privacy from time to time as the mood strikes her. W took quite a few steps backward from "civilization" when the idea of communal baths was more or less outlawed by the early church. 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 07, 2016, 08:37:43 PM
It seems that for the most part, women's restrooms are much less messed up than where the men go. Where there is only one or two private restrooms, they are less messy. The conclusion is that men are more restrained and polite about their messes when sharing with women. Just my experience, no actual wider data. I could be generally wrong.

However, in the old SANS group, there was a motion to request that men pee sitting down, generated by the females, for obvious reasons and given strength since some of the women were hosting events in their homes. It seems that older guys drip longer and shake more. The request, which was presented to be an actual rule, was discussed. How would anyone know about cheating, and some men took it as a snip at their masculinity to have to sit down "like a girl."

Toilet issues do create many and varied opinions.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on November 07, 2016, 10:18:09 PM
If I'm naked I tend to sit down anyway, to save the trouble of aiming.   :o
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 08, 2016, 12:10:04 AM
Trouble! I was raised to strive to perfect marksmanship. I participated in pissing contests in the boys bathroom at several schools, growing up. From when Momma would make a big issue if did it like a baby, instead of a BIG boy, to not wanting to get it on my boots, to penmanship as I signed my art in the yellow snow, to just learning to be polite for the next person as I matured, it was something to be mastered. To not stand upright and proud is to diminish a guy's manhood!...or so the story goes.... ::)
It is  a male thing from coyote to shitzu to lift a leg and mark territory, from cat to bear, to the odd hairless one and it should be practiced. Ya never know when you'll need to make your mark and do it with flair, attitude and properly with measurable skill!  8)

Besides, nude, or pants hanging on a bush, squatting in the woods leaves my feet defiled half of the time.
Jbee ;D
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on November 08, 2016, 12:45:35 AM
It seems that for the most part, women's restrooms are much less messed up than where the men go. Where there is only one or two private restrooms, they are less messy. The conclusion is that men are more restrained and polite about their messes when sharing with women. Just my experience, no actual wider data. I could be generally wrong.

When I was in college my female housemate was supervisor of a janitorial service at the college.  She opined that the women's toilets are always a lot more messy than the men's rooms.  That is consistent with what I have read elsewhere. 




Quote
However, in the old SANS group, there was a motion to request that men pee sitting down, generated by the females, for obvious reasons and given strength since some of the women were hosting events in their homes. It seems that older guys drip longer and shake more. The request, which was presented to be an actual rule, was discussed. How would anyone know about cheating, and some men took it as a snip at their masculinity to have to sit down "like a girl."


When a standing man is peeing into a sit down toilet instead of a standing urinal there is a splash which is greater than occasional drip or aim violations.  Some aerosol droplets get spread several feet in each direction.  Each droplet is quite small and may not be noticed. 

By comparison, in public toilets many women do not sit.  They "hover" according to plumbing industry reports.  The first woman makes a little splash on the seat.  The next woman comes along, sees a splash, doesn't want to sit so she leans back but stays a few inches off the seat (hover). I have had this behavior confirmed by numerous women. Women have higher stream velocity and less stream cohesion than men, more splash, more spray, more mess.   It could be that your SANS hostess was blaming men for mess created by women.  Women's public toilets are invariably more messy.   Homes ought to have stand up plumbing for men anyway.  Asking men to sit because nothing is provided for men is insulting.


Quote
Toilet issues do create many and varied opinions. Jbee

Yep.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on November 08, 2016, 08:57:53 PM
Quote from: ric
. . . will they be employing door persons to inspect your your genitals and/or birth ceftificate to make sure your crapping in the right toilet?
Why has no one stopped to consider the ramifications of this pointless effort? Do they have a clue how many bathrooms there are? How many people would that take? Who would monitor them? A gender Commisioner? Who would pay them?

We would have to carry paperwork around just to go to the bathroom! Who's going to provide the documentation? You know there will be exemptions making the whole system ripe for corruption.

The mind boggles!

This would create yet another bureaucratic arm of government that would begin to reach into the most private parts of our lives. And lets don't forget the whole constitutional violations the entire enterprise would represent.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on November 08, 2016, 09:02:35 PM
What a strange and unusual stream this topic has taken!  ;D

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on November 08, 2016, 09:03:50 PM
I wonder what Thomas C. Rapper would think of all this?

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on November 08, 2016, 11:39:34 PM
No one has thought through the ramifications because it's a MATTER OF PRINCIPLE, on which various interested parties can take a principled stand, each trying to claim the moral high ground. Practicalities don't come into it because anyone who dares raise them is immediately accused of being an ...ist (race, gender, whatever-ist) and is pilloried and taken to court.

Peter (natur-ist)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on November 09, 2016, 10:39:59 PM
I tend to agree with Bob - if there were no gender distinctions in rest rooms the need for distinction may well not arise.
BUT, I would have separate facilities any day!  Have you ever been to the theatre or an event and been to the john in the interval, or been on a bus which stops for a comfort break - there is always a queue for the ladies but never the men.  Imagine us blokes having to wait in line to wash hands whilst the girls make up in the mirrors over the sink!  What a waste of a rich and active life that would be!!!

John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: ric on November 10, 2016, 02:57:20 PM
why the need to stand in line to wash hands?

i was brought up to wash hands before meals,
dirty oily or whatever hands often meant wash hands then pee then eat.
 what have you been up to with your tackle that you need to disinfect your hands after touching it? ???
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on November 10, 2016, 03:12:52 PM

BUT, I would have separate facilities any day!  Have you ever been to the theatre or an event and been to the john in the interval, or been on a bus which stops for a comfort break - there is always a queue for the ladies but never the men.  John


There is no biological reason why it takes women twice as long to pee as men.   The extra delay has to do with their excessive and inconvenient clothing.  In general women no longer wear clothes designed for women to pee easily, skirts without panties.  And they eschewed the use of female urinals that were installed in the early 20th century when indoor plumbing became the norm. 

If the women have to wait in line its only because of their own silly behavior.  That doesn't constitute an excuse to invade a man's space and occupy and mess up the few toilets provided for men who need to take a dump.

I don't see why we need to have separate facilities, but neither do I see why we don't tell the ladies to get a clue and dress for function. 

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on November 10, 2016, 04:52:29 PM
Nothing wrong with checking to see if there is any spinach trapped in your teeth or that your hair doesn't look like Alfalfa (http://www.tapwires.com/2016/06/12/the-little-rascals-part-1-remembering-alfalfa). In a CO environment, though there would be no need to primp and fuss with complicated accessories.

Elsewhere, one way to speed up the line at the sink, would be to mount small picture frame sized mirrors that cannot give you a full view of all the accoutrements. You remember them, the size men once used for shaving.

Being unable to see and adjust would shorten the time spent gazing in wonder at the presentation.

I wonder if trying to get those mandated at all PUBLIC restrooms would fly in the interest of saving time and curtailing the levels of self absorption in society. That might qualify as a health benefit.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on November 10, 2016, 07:21:45 PM

BUT, I would have separate facilities any day!  Have you ever been to the theatre or an event and been to the john in the interval, or been on a bus which stops for a comfort break - there is always a queue for the ladies but never the men.  John


There is no biological reason why it takes women twice as long to pee as men.   The extra delay has to do with their excessive and inconvenient clothing.  In general women no longer wear clothes designed for women to pee easily, skirts without panties.  And they eschewed the use of female urinals that were installed in the early 20th century when indoor plumbing became the norm. 

If the women have to wait in line its only because of their own silly behavior.  That doesn't constitute an excuse to invade a man's space and occupy and mess up the few toilets provided for men who need to take a dump.

I don't see why we need to have separate facilities, but neither do I see why we don't tell the ladies to get a clue and dress for function. 

Bob
Touching the handles lid etc. can be nasty or hazardous, but avoided by the use of the wipe tissues. Sometimes there is a sloppy accidental something, but generally no. NUDE, the bacteria issues are aired out. If I can place it in my lover's mouth as an act of love and return that act in kind, then I have no qualms about taking a leak without gloves, or always washing. I wash before eating or after touching very public surfaces, but that is about diseases left from sick people.

Thank-you Bob for adding one more to the list of reasons why nude is superior to clothing. The simple practicality, the unnatural, the waste of time, effort, inconvenience to the wearers of clothing and to those around them. I remember attending SCA events in full medieval garb, attempting to undress in a plastic porta potty. The tights, the cod piece, the long tail shirt, the extra long belt with sword and pocket bag which would drop like a rock without belt loops. After living nude most of the time, when I go out in public clothed and need to use a public facility, it is doubly the hassle in my perception. The difference is amazing without the pants. Sometimes, I have just taken them off instead of ankle-ing them. A kilt is much more practical, if there is a coat hanger in the stall, but a hassle at a urinal.

Clothing is just impractical and expensive, monetarily, time consumption, unnecessary hassle, all three. It is senseless for people to wear clothes in Arizona desert most of the time. If anything, a robe, or piece of cloth like a sarong is enough. It is the fault of all of those aggressive white people, that had to wear stuff to keep warm up north, got hung up on clothing, and then subjected the rest of the world to their version on civilization. We evolved in more tropical climates and they turned everything upside down against nature. White people's lunacy still prevails. How do we cope?
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on November 10, 2016, 09:50:05 PM
Jbee's post prompted a memory of a hot summer in my pre-naturist days when I was wearing only shorts a lot of the time and would drop them to my ankles to use a urinal rather than mess about with flies.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on November 13, 2016, 05:48:41 PM
Punch air and woo hoo for Jbee's and Bob's last postings! :)  Generally agreed.  Let's keep separate toilets because the women are too irritatingly slow. 

To take up Jbee's remarks:  There are few indignities more undignified than dropping your trousers in a public cubicle and finding the floor wet!  I am vigilant if I can't avoid a public closet.  I don't drop'em or juggle 'em or struggle - I just take em off and squat on the seat (if there's a hook on the door!).  Better position for daefecation anyway.  If no hook then vacate to an adjacent stall or hover over the seat (don't like that, mind you).

On the subject of urine and urination, the increasingly irksome habit of washing one's hands after a wee has become a societal habit of pure genteel politesse.  It is apparently unnecessary as there is insufficient chance of infection transmitted from just having a wee, that makes it an ok risk.  I remember back in the day, nobody washed after urinating in the mens.  (Mind you, maybe they got sick more frequently). 

I read that urine is pretty sterile if you don't have a urinary tract or bladder disease.  My penile skin is normally clean as I bathe daily at least.  It gets touched only slightly if at all during the act of evacuation so the need to wash is really only from touching the toilet door and the sink!!  I stand unafraid if I don't wash after peeing on occasions!  However, the real rationale for washing is that when toileting, it’s possible to have fecal bacteria get onto your hands.  Fecal coliform bacteria escape with flatus (fart) and indeed there is a small but fair concentration of fecal bacteria in your boxer-shorts region and in toilet atrmosphere as it is released when others defaecate.  If you are in a cubicle, when you flush, even if only urine, the flush water can release an aerosol of bacteria as it churns and splashes.

So I do usually conform to the modern niceties, though, for the above reason.  However, Bob, before I light your blue touch paper, I am aware that the risk is not high!  More to the point, I also read a scientific article a few years ago that a very good way to help avoid colds and particularly flu during the season is to keep one's hands clean and wash regularly during the day.  Apparently it is much less likely* that one will contract flu from the aerosols of coughing or sneezing infected people.  Apparently the virus is equally* or more often* acquired from things we touch e.g. handrails and door handles and then transmitted via the inevitable contact with our own hands that we have during eating and other activities (such as picking your nose!! :D ) .  So handwashing is de rigeur for prevention of infection (as medics will aver).   Now, I have to say I can't recall where I read that (but I know I did!) so I can't give you a link to verify ...but hey. google it yourselves.  (Asterisked* are unsupported assertions from that memory).

If I'm in the shower, I have no compunction if I want to urinate. It's 99% water and a bit of salts and no bacteria as above.  I have had a discussion in the past with a group of friends in a pub and found I was the only one not to some extent repelled by this!  I thought everyone peed in the shower at some time in their lives!  Some people take their urine as a health drink and in survival training people are taught to drink their urine to conserve water if dehydrated. If you pee in the shower, there's no delay in washing effectively!

Er, is this topic drift from Encounters? :D :D :D

John

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on November 13, 2016, 08:57:44 PM
Its essential to wash your hands after visiting a toilet and especially before handling food. I agree that urinating in itself does not necessarily require a hand wash, but as stated its the germs that accumulate on door handles etc. I won't use a roller towel as that just puts more germs back on my hands than I've taken off. The aerosol effect and warm air driers can if badly positioned spread more bacteria.

Now here's a cheery thought. Peanuts on a bar will have particles of urine on them after people who have been to the toilet have droplets on their hands which they then transfer to the bowl of peanuts when they help themselves to them. Sterile or not, not an attractive thought.   

I'm amazed at so many comments regarding lavatorial behaviour. We must be like small kids, mention toilets and off they go with their lavatorial comments!!!

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: ric on November 13, 2016, 10:08:59 PM
when i was a student many moons ago all our bedrooms had a wash basin , but toilets were comunual,  very few of the male students bothered to walk down the corridor to the toilets for a pee.  all the sink drains ended up in the same sewer.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on November 13, 2016, 10:33:05 PM
On the subject of this topic deviation, I have always felt that the door handle on the way out after one has washed one's hands is the most likely source of infection.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on November 14, 2016, 05:06:10 AM
Jbee's post prompted a memory of a hot summer in my pre-naturist days when I was wearing only shorts a lot of the time and would drop them to my ankles to use a urinal rather than mess about with flies.

I have found that lifting one leg of shorts to use public urinals is easier than dropping my shorts.  But then I quit wearing underwear some years ago so I don't have to deal with that hindrance too.

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on November 14, 2016, 05:22:51 AM

To take up Jbee's remarks:  There are few indignities more undignified than dropping your trousers in a public cubicle and finding the floor wet!  I am vigilant if I can't avoid a public closet.  I don't drop'em or juggle 'em or struggle - I just take em off and squat on the seat (if there's a hook on the door!).  Better position for daefecation anyway.  If no hook then vacate to an adjacent stall or hover over the seat (don't like that, mind you).

Since I quit wearing shoes or underwear it is fast and easy to remove pants in a stall.  Freed up legs makes it easy to position my knees farther apart when sitting, and that makes body function work better. 


Quote
On the subject of urine and urination, the increasingly irksome habit of washing one's hands after a wee has become a societal habit of pure genteel politesse.  It is apparently unnecessary as there is insufficient chance of infection transmitted from just having a wee, that makes it an ok risk.  I remember back in the day, nobody washed after urinating in the mens.  (Mind you, maybe they got sick more frequently). 

Wash before you eat.


Quote
However, the real rationale for washing is that when toileting, it’s possible to have fecal bacteria get onto your hands.  Fecal coliform bacteria escape with flatus (fart) and indeed there is a small but fair concentration of fecal bacteria in your boxer-shorts region and in toilet atrmosphere as it is released when others defaecate.  If you are in a cubicle, when you flush, even if only urine, the flush water can release an aerosol of bacteria as it churns and splashes.

However, Bob, before I light your blue touch paper, I am aware that the risk is not high!  More to the point, I also read a scientific article a few years ago that a very good way to help avoid colds and particularly flu during the season is to keep one's hands clean and wash regularly during the day.  Apparently it is much less likely* that one will contract flu from the aerosols of coughing or sneezing infected people.  Apparently the virus is equally* or more often* acquired from things we touch e.g. handrails and door handles and then transmitted via the inevitable contact with our own hands that we have during eating and other activities (such as picking your nose!! :D ) .  So handwashing is de rigeur for prevention of infection (as medics will aver).   Now, I have to say I can't recall where I read that (but I know I did!) so I can't give you a link to verify ...but hey. google it yourselves.  (Asterisked* are unsupported assertions from that memory).


Some studies now say that the recent fastidiousness with sterilizing hands has caused more serious disease by reducing the body's day to day contact with small amounts of contamination.  The hand sterilizers that became common in grocery stores, etc., a couple of years ago have vanished.  Touching the shopping cart may spread bacteria but not much. 


Quote
If I'm in the shower, I have no compunction if I want to urinate. It's 99% water and a bit of salts and no bacteria as above.  I have had a discussion in the past with a group of friends in a pub and found I was the only one not to some extent repelled by this!  I thought everyone peed in the shower at some time in their lives!


My first wife told me that all women pee in their shower but many won't admit it.  The woman's pee dribbles down between her legs unnoticed and is washed away.  A man's shower pee often goes out onto some surface so its more noticeable, but no more hazardous.   I suppose your pub mates are part of the don't admit it bunch.

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on November 14, 2016, 03:55:55 PM
I'm not going to try and quote everyone just add a few observations. According to my very educated sister in the medical field the use of hand sterilizers has only given those little buggers more of a chance to adapt and evolve toward becoming a super bug. That along with the overuse of antibiotics has only added to the problem. As she puts it the only place to be aware of hand washing is in a hospital; and that is mostly to prevent cross contamination. Most important thing is to avoid hand contact with eyes, nose and mouth as that's where the bacteria gain entry. As for urination, you will find more germs on the bathroom door than in your urine; unless you have an infection of course. And the place in the hospital with the most germs? On doctors neckties!

Bob is quite right that by not wearing underwear things are much simpler in bathroom stalls. And Jbee, if kilt wearing ever catches on in the southwest you'll find that makes life much simpler. It is easy to unwrap, hang it on the hooks then rewrap after; no fussing with trying to put pants back on, dancing on one foot and trying to avoid puddles on the floor.

I won't even get into peeing in the shower. I think the pub mates are too afraid to admit their tendencies; much like many are afraid to admit they like to be naked. Also Davie, thankfully this thread had not reached the level of toddler "poopy" humor!   
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on November 14, 2016, 04:56:43 PM
Quote
Also Davie, thankfully this thread had not reached the level of toddler "poopy" humor!  ]

Yet - please spare us that!!

Locally hospital doctors have stopped wearing ties. Just be careful of their pens!

Davie  8)

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on November 14, 2016, 08:52:06 PM
The use of antibacterial solutions in all sorts of products has done more to reduce the body's ability to defend itself against common everyday bugs than anything else. The human biome is a robust environment. It's why you get sick easier if you're body's defenses are already compromised by other infections.

Pioneers from all over the globe made it across thousands of miles and months of travel while taking care of "business" every single day. More died of exposure to severe weather, lack of planning and skill sets or conflict with the people they were displacing.

I doubt very many died from contamination.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on November 14, 2016, 08:55:34 PM
Quote from: John
Have you ever been to the theatre or an event and been to the john in the interval . . .

I've been to concerts where the lines to the women's restroom were so long that the men's rooms effectively became communal.

The men, those needing only to get rid of cheap BEER, used the urinals and the women used the stalls. It was no big deal.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on November 18, 2016, 12:40:20 AM
Quote from: Bob
I have found that lifting one leg of shorts ...is easier than dropping my shorts
Note: This only works for urine! :D
John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on November 18, 2016, 09:56:14 PM
Quote from: Bob
I have found that lifting one leg of shorts ...is easier than dropping my shorts
Note: This only works for urine! :D
John

Yes.  That was a reply to a quote about using a urinal.   For anything else, and with me being barefoot, its quick and easy just to step out of shorts or pants and hang them on a hook.

Bob
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Safebare on November 19, 2016, 12:22:31 AM
Okay, I'll bite. All of this talk about bathroom etiquette gets my eyes to roll. But I came across a trough in a truck stop earlier this week. I thought they were phased out years ago, but there it was. So I stepped up and proceeded to do my business. Another 'gentileman' entered and paused very briefly, weighing his options, before taking the stall to relieve himself. Just didn't want to use the ample space beside me. For whatever reason. We lost something in society where two males can no longer stand side by side to piss.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on November 19, 2016, 04:36:30 AM
I read something about the vacant urinal rule in men's restrooms that one is supposed to leave a gap between users! Maybe this homophobic thing is going too far, first showers now urinals.
 
Okay, I'll bite. All of this talk about bathroom etiquette gets my eyes to roll. But I came across a trough in a truck stop earlier this week. I thought they were phased out years ago, but there it was. So I stepped up and proceeded to do my business. Another 'gentileman' entered and paused very briefly, weighing his options, before taking the stall to relieve himself. Just didn't want to use the ample space beside me. For whatever reason. We lost something in society where two males can no longer stand side by side to piss.

I have not made it to any of the new venues in the nearest "big" city to me which is Pittsburgh PA. I remember the old arena had trouths in the men's room and I also remember women using the stalls when the woman's line was to long. I miss those days at the "igloo" but despite the 73F (about 25C) today we are expected to have snow on the ground this time tomorrow!
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on November 19, 2016, 03:05:35 PM
.. .. .. ..  Another 'gentileman' entered and paused very briefly, weighing his options, before taking the stall to relieve himself. .. ... .. ..
In that case how did you know he wasn't Jewish?

I couldn't resist the typo.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Safebare on November 20, 2016, 04:06:00 PM
Must have been a Freudian slip up.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on February 18, 2017, 11:07:31 PM
http://www.bn.org.uk/activities/frn_experience

I saw this listed. It is from BN. Is it one of us?

It has good advice. He walks in Sherwood Forest a lot and has a good relationship with the warden. Anybody live in that neck of the woods in that neck of the woods? It sounds like free country. Is that a lot of area?

His remarks and cautions are scary. I'd think that he might scare off people from free range hiking.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: milfmog on February 21, 2017, 09:21:47 PM
David is very active in his area and has been educating the ranger who look after the local publicly accessible land. in the past he has suffered at the hands of some of Bob's blue-clad bully boys, the case was eventually dropped, but not before it cost him an immense amount of worry, stress and hard earned cash.

He now has a large area that he regularly walks naked and will happily take along more or less anyone who contacts him in advance. He's not an enormous distance from John (Nuduke).

Have fun,


Ian.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on February 21, 2017, 10:30:04 PM
See this thread:
http://freerangenaturism.com/forum/index.php?topic=808.0

Someone should persuade Dave to become a member here.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on February 22, 2017, 12:06:47 AM
Quote from: Safebare
. . . I came across a trough in a truck stop earlier this week. I thought they were phased out years ago, but there it was. So I stepped up . .

There is an old family owned place outside of town called "Bonnie Springs". It's one of those tourist places where they stage Old West Melodramas and sell all sorts of western and mining themed junk. You can also go on hikes up into canyons and take horseback rides. There is a kiddie train you can ride up to the place if you park at the lower parking lot. We used to take the kids there. They loved it.

There is a restaurant there that makes a killer hamburger, at least they used to. It's not fine dining by any stretch. The restrooms there are at the other end of the adjacent room. If it's not busy, it's a long walk across a vacant concrete floor. The doors have the requisite man/woman indicators made of old pioneer clothing and have old screen door springs to keep them closed. If it were a new place it would be retro. It's not retro, all original stuff.

In the men's room, take a deep breath before entering, there is an old claw foot tub for a group urinal. If it were any farther from the wall it would be a circle of . . . well you get my drift.

Back before the boom and before we had kids we would go out there in the winter, buy hot coffee/alcohol drinks, sit around a fire pit in the dining area, kick our feet up on the stones and just relax.

It's been a few years since I was there. I wonder if it's still the same?
Fun times!

Duane



Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on February 22, 2017, 12:10:25 AM
Yeah, Jbee. I do some of his trail craft.

Especially the part about spiderwebs. If I see a piece of a web across the trail and no prints in the sand I know I am most likely alone.

It sounds like he is personally familiar with the legal end of taking the risk of naked hiking.

All good advice.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: milfmog on February 22, 2017, 11:18:45 AM
http://www.bn.org.uk/activities/frn_experience

< SNIP > Is that a lot of area?
Not by USA standards. The attached map gives a general idea of the size and location of the National nature reserve in question, if you want to see where this is in context search for Ollerton (the town at the south-eastern corner of the map)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2678/32667346820_d8e09e9cca.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2678/32667346820_9ddefef157_h.jpg)

Size wise, I believe the reserve is around 400 acres.

Have fun,


Ian.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on February 22, 2017, 06:16:53 PM
It's less than 3/4 of a section. That really isn't very large when sharing with others. I always had this image in my head of Sherwood Forest, thanks I'm sure to Hollywood, as an enormous, wild and dense forest that stretched for miles. It is also curious that the word forest is defined differently in our separate countries. Mr. Churchill is right again!

Is the reserve very busy? It is completely surrounded by developed land. Back east, you see that, but not so much out here in the west.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Peter S on February 22, 2017, 06:37:50 PM
Back in Robin Hood's day it was indeed enormous, and much of the country was similarly wooded. Tree felling for agriculture and later for urban expansion gradually eroded all that. I think these days Sherwood Forest is more of a town park
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on February 24, 2017, 10:28:24 PM

Also adjacent to Sherwood Forest is the village of Edwinstowe, cradle of the eternal witticism:
Q: "Where is Edwinstowe?"
A: "On the end of Edwin's foot!"
Effect: Peals of helpless mirth amongst one's interlocutors.
Second only to the deathless gag:
Q: " Where are the Andes?"
A: "On the end of your wristies!"
Not easily translated to script, I might add!


I live about 30 miles from Sherwood Forest today and have never given a second thought to walking naked there as it is a major tourist venue for the region and indeed the UK.  There is a large visitor centre, extensive parking and overflow parking and the trails and paths are all populated by walkers, joggers, kids, dogs, cycles, wardens, teachers and schoolkids, parties of less abled, better abled, chavs, spivs, courting couples, married couples, families, extended families, twitchers, botanists, mycologists, ornithologists, bryologists, dendrologist etc etc etc etc. Now Hear de Word of de Lord, Yessah! 
Those paths in the forest I have walked down recently (last early autumn) give on to fairly level ground, undulating gently where less flat and high trees with low undergrowth and large areas of leafy carpet making visibility clear to relatively long distances. Very inappropriate for taking your shirt off on a hot day let alone total nudity.


David's experience just goes to show I've not been there and got off the beaten track!  My visit last year was to support a friend who was completing a hike of over 100 miles for charity.  I walked about a mile in, met the hiking party and my friend and walked with them the mile out as moral support at the end of their long journey.  Previous visits were in former years (1990's) with the kids, when we also lived about 30 miles away.  So on all visits the progress was very much  ON the beaten track. 


Is David contactable through any forums or whatnot?  Maybe there'll be another naked walk later in the year?


John



Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: milfmog on February 24, 2017, 11:35:44 PM
Is David contactable through any forums or whatnot?  Maybe there'll be another naked walk later in the year?
He posts on the BN forum and at naturist-corner (where he uses the name Gildo) You can email him through Naturist-Corner.

Have fun,


Ian.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: yeldew on February 25, 2017, 12:33:14 AM
I walked with Gildo last year and will probably try to do so again when he next arranges a group.
He walks in Sherwood most days of the week. When alone he prefers to cover about 4 miles per hour.
I see him fairly often at the Sleaford Swim. We chat in the sauna.
Norman.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Naked_Archer on March 02, 2017, 09:21:32 PM
Meanwhile, in Scotland, a free range naturist seemed to gain a criminal record for his troubles...

http://www.alloaadvertiser.com/news/15123506.Naked_rambler_in_the_Ochils_given_soft_sentence/ (http://www.alloaadvertiser.com/news/15123506.Naked_rambler_in_the_Ochils_given_soft_sentence/)

Worrying times for Scottish free range naturists, as it seems that the police have a lot of time on their hands to hunt down naturists!   >:(

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on March 03, 2017, 01:42:29 AM
Meanwhile, in Scotland, a free range naturist seemed to gain a criminal record for his troubles...


Its sad that the police are paid to harass and peaceful human beings who clearly are not harming anyone.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: ric on March 03, 2017, 10:12:02 AM
or maybe needs  a bit of common sense re the realities of being caught half dressed in a car park by the fuzz... empty carpark getting changed is different to wandering half naked round a half full carpark


theres never enough detail in these press reports to decide whether someones just been unlucky or reckless.

whatever the rights and wrongs legally we all know in the long term  its less hassle to be just a bit wary of close encounters in well frequented places.

forgetting the half dressed in the carpark bit ,  even encountering a lone woman sat on a bench ,  common sense would indicate a cheery greeting whilst walking on by....  if you just sit or loiter nearby shes  bound to start wondering whats happenimg.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on March 03, 2017, 03:07:00 PM

forgetting the half dressed in the carpark bit ,  even encountering a lone woman sat on a bench ,  common sense would indicate a cheery greeting whilst walking on by....  if you just sit or loiter nearby shes  bound to start wondering whats happenimg.


I noticed that too.  Going over to sit on the bench with the random woman seemed to be his practice.  A casual greeting while walking on past would likely not have gotten caused alarm.  Instead of going on by he sits on the bench with the strange woman. 

In my wandering I've had women go 20 feet off a trail to maintain space between them and a naked man.  They are taught to fear men, and especially to fear naked men alone in a woods.  So going to sit beside one on a bench would likely cause her more alarm than a "howdy good morning" while walking on past. 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on March 03, 2017, 05:38:23 PM
That was the one thing he did I thought would be interpreted as alarming. He may have been, in his mind, just being friendly but it implies a lack of awareness of how people react.

Also I wouldn't have pleaded guilty if I had done the same thing. There is always room to maneuver within vaguely written laws. In a group of 10 people you will get 10 different definitions of what is alarming.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on March 03, 2017, 06:39:37 PM
That's a sad story, about the guy in Scotland. My memory is fading about what happened to Steve Gough "The Naked Rambler" in Scotland, but I think his numerous arrests there all involved breach of the peace, expressed in Scottish law as "Causing alarm to the lieges". In this recent case they also threw in "recklessly committing public indecency" and the guy pleaded guilty to it. I did a search on that term and couldn't find any other instances except this one case, nor what "public indecency" means in Scotland. In England, anything like this would be covered by the Sexual Offences Act, and there's a Scottish Sexual Offences Act too, but evidently there's a possibility of prosecution outside of it. This quote from the article makes it seem as if the legal authorities actually told British Naturism that breach of the peace was the only crime a naturist would be accused of, and now they're backtracking.

Mr Dalling [the defendant's lawyer] said British Naturism, of which Edney was a member, had published advice on walking naked after consultations with the Crown Office and the Scottish Government.

He said: "The only real consideration that was given in those advices was to the question of the commission of a breach of the peace."

Mr Dalling added that the Crown Office had written again to British Naturism apologising for giving "an impression" that breach of the peace was the only potential offence that might be committed by a naked walker, and detailing other offences, including that to which Edney had now pleaded guilty.


Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on March 03, 2017, 09:32:37 PM
My understanding from the BN forum is that he did breach the BN guidelines to a significant extent and that he also was much more confrontational than anybody here would recommend.
Furthermore BN have had additional consultations with the appropriate authorities, the result of which is that the guidelines stand unaltered.
The only strange thing about the case that I have heard is that the trigger for his arrest was a telephone call to the police from a woman who had seen him in the distance and had deliberately got closer in order to see whether he was naked.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on March 03, 2017, 11:11:12 PM
The only strange thing about the case that I have heard is that the trigger for his arrest was a telephone call to the police from a woman who had seen him in the distance and had deliberately got closer in order to see whether he was naked.


She was "offended" because she moved in to get a better look.   That is bad.

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Naked_Archer on March 04, 2017, 03:44:14 PM
The only strange thing about the case that I have heard is that the trigger for his arrest was a telephone call to the police from a woman who had seen him in the distance and had deliberately got closer in order to see whether he was naked.


She was "offended" because she moved in to get a better look.   That is bad.

Pretty bad that the police then used that "getting offended after getting closer for a better look" as a way to charge & arrest the walker. 

It's certainly made me realise what impacts getting caught when carrying out free range naturism may have on my life, e.g. arrested, lose job, then lose house as no longer able to pay mortgage. 

So I think I'll be curtailing free range naturism.  Sad to do so, but better safe than sorry!
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on March 04, 2017, 04:01:43 PM
  Scotland IS goofed up. He needed to be more cautious and carry a coverup.
Jbee

 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on March 04, 2017, 04:16:30 PM
One would think that as a member of BN that he would have at least read their literature and knew what could happen with the wrong chance encounter. There is enough information out there on various sites and blogs to enable one to hike naked with minimal chance of an encounter. I have had maybe five encounters in thirty plus years and that's not including all those years before the first marriage! And knowing Scotland has a whole different view on the matter it seems foolish not to have a cover up let alone changing in a parking lot.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: milfmog on March 05, 2017, 11:34:27 AM
Another point that is relevant in this case is that he was originally charged with three further, more serious, offences from some time earlier. The authorities later came to the conclusion that these were committed by someone else and dropped them. However, by then he was in the system and we all know how the system does not like to admit mistakes.

In the event, he took a plea bargain that let him go with just an "admonishment". In other words, a record but no punishment. Compared to the expense and hassle of a possible court case, that might be very tempting; I am not sure that I would not have taken the deal, whatever the BN advice.

Have fun (and don't let these vanishingly rare cases get too big a grip on your mind),

Ian.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on March 05, 2017, 02:01:45 PM
Another obvious fact in the Scotland naked guy story.  The police there and everywhere do not want to be bothered getting out of their patrol cars and hiking around in the bush looking for a naked person.   This guy was not accosted by the police until he appeared in the parking lot naked.   

Had he carried a cover and put it on a hundred yards in the bush before returning to the lot, the police would not have arrested him.  We all need to remember that well used parking lots and roads are easy for police, but off road trails would force the copper to do some walking, and he's not going to do that. 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on March 05, 2017, 05:58:24 PM
They can wait there with a picture or description and a complaint, but not if there is just one way out, that the suspect may not be spending the night camping, that the incident happened way past the general flock.

 Multiple complaints will change police behavior, but in an odd instance. We know of that happening once in northern California, when they went looking with helicopters after the same guy frequented the same trail and women complained being fearful.

If two out of one hundred freak, then there are more instances of encounters, the odds go up. A busy trail just creates problems that can be avoided becuase those odds are increased.  A larger percentage of the people with kids and the lone women get alarmed over nothing, unreasonably easier, just more than most. Covering up for those decreases odds. Then, the consideration that of that 2% to 4%, how many would go to the trouble to pursue testifying....

The woman that tracked him down and got closer, just sounds fishy and very unusual. Her complaint seems unreasonable, unless nudity is illegal. The Naked Rambler seemed to show us that Scotland has made it effectively illegal in public, but this wasn't even in public. They mention the multiple complaints, but could there have been more and talk going on that we don't know about. Could the woman be thinking, "There is the one that I heard about. I'm going to catch the bugger"? Or did she just take it upon herself to police what doesn't sound like a particularly remote area?

So, what is this about a law "recklessly committing public indecency"? Is it something local?
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on March 06, 2017, 07:48:24 PM
Quote
So, what is this about a law "recklessly committing public indecency"? Is it something local?

I thought of Speakers Corner in Hyde Park. I don't know the actual rules compared to those imagined by folks like me with little knowledge. I did find this on Wikipedia :-[ :

Quote
Lord Justice Sedley, in his decision regarding Redmond-Bate v Director of Public Prosecutions (1999), described Speakers' Corner as demonstrating "the tolerance which is both extended by the law to opinion of every kind and expected by the law in the conduct of those who disagree, even strongly, with what they hear." The ruling famously established in English case law that freedom of speech could not be limited to the inoffensive but extended also to "the irritating, the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome, and the provocative, as long as such speech did not tend to provoke violence", and that the right to free speech accorded by Article 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights also accorded the right to be offensive. Prior to the ruling, prohibited speech at Speakers' Corner included obscenity, blasphemy, insulting the queen, or inciting a breach of the peace.

I wonder what would be made of a nudist attempting to use the corner as a platform. It probably wouldn't work. Here in the USA some activists are trying to have the courts see performance, action and behavior as a form of speech. It is increasingly being pushed as a form of free speech.

Duane

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Naked_Archer on March 07, 2017, 04:00:35 PM
Another point that is relevant in this case is that he was originally charged with three further, more serious, offences from some time earlier. The authorities later came to the conclusion that these were committed by someone else and dropped them. However, by then he was in the system and we all know how the system does not like to admit mistakes.

In the event, he took a plea bargain that let him go with just an "admonishment". In other words, a record but no punishment. Compared to the expense and hassle of a possible court case, that might be very tempting; I am not sure that I would not have taken the deal, whatever the BN advice.

Have fun (and don't let these vanishingly rare cases get too big a grip on your mind),

Ian.

No punishment, but a criminal record which may have to be declared for employment purposes, particularly if ones employment needs disclosure screening... 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on March 07, 2017, 05:28:01 PM
Yea, convicted of a crime is the key. Arrest, you are innocent until proven guilty. National security and top secret are concerned. Working a school system there is a background check. Working in a prison, even more extensive. To work in a prison during a practicum, they called me and asked my about things 35 years ago that I didn't even remember. I'd never take  plea, when I am innocent of a crime. Did this guy actually do a crime? Was there a law. Is it illegal to be nude? and have someone creep up on you like a voyeur? Is it a nebulous misdemeanor kind of thing that he pleaded to, or a record clearly of what he had done? He is a private contractor and established.

The mistake was to not be more discrete, stealth, and remember that he was in Scotland.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on March 07, 2017, 07:42:58 PM
Let's be fair here. Bob said She was "offended" because she moved in to get a better look and JBG said Is it illegal to be nude? and have someone creep up on you like a voyeur? But the man ended up convicted of a crime. Is it wrong, if you think you could be witnessing a crime, to make sure of what's happening and who's doing it, and then to call the police if you do think something illegal was involved?

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on March 07, 2017, 07:54:28 PM
When you are out in public view there is no expectation of privacy. You can ask that someone leave you alone and to move away but there is no legal defense of not being seen outside. You can stop them from harassing you or even to remain at a distance, but not from standing off and taking pictures.

It's why the paparazzi keep doing business.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on March 07, 2017, 09:21:38 PM
When you are out in public view there is no expectation of privacy. You can ask that someone leave you alone and to move away but there is no legal defense of not being seen outside. You can stop them from harassing you or even to remain at a distance, but not from standing off and taking pictures.

It's why the paparazzi keep doing business.  Duane


My reaction to camera folks has always been to smile and wave.   They usually get embarrassed that they were noticed.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on March 08, 2017, 06:37:54 AM
Good point John P. about the somebody's good citizenship.

So, what was the crime, again? She assumed that he was doing something illegal and took it upon herself to investigate. He didn't go to trial, he seems to have coped a plea bargain. It could be that he didn't do a crime, he only chose to admit behavior without trial. If you are offended, you go away from the offender, not go closer, don't ja? Seems that there are some things missing in the article and he just wanted the mess to go away. For an employee, that would not go away, but he is an employer and it doesn't matter to him to have a conviction....I dunno.

Seems that magistrates are pulling laws out of their back pockets, stretching the intent of laws, making inconsistencies when all people should be treated fairly and equally, with a jury of ones peers. Is the judge legislating morality instead of a selected, by people's vote, voting body, or was BN just totally wrong?
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Davie on March 08, 2017, 12:54:46 PM
"She moved closer to get a better look"  That didn't wash with the naked carpenter case which was dismissed as the Magistrates felt no one had a right not to be offended and one of the witness put themselves out to be offended. Scotland is of course different legally to England and wales. BN has produced legal advice in consultation with the legal authorities. It's worth noting that at BN's Gathering in Dunoon two group walks took place with the full knowledge and support of the Police. One individual put herself out to put forward the case for naturism and it worked. It can be done.

In the Scottish case it seems that the Justice gave the minimum malty he could after a guilty plea. Clearly his sympathies were with the naturist.

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: milfmog on March 08, 2017, 01:54:41 PM
In the Scottish case it seems that the Justice gave the minimum malty he could after a guilty plea. Clearly his sympathies were with the naturist.
I suspect that although the accused was established as being guilty (by his own plea) the minimal punishment may discourage the police from similar actions in future. What is the point of spending all that effort and time if the judge is simply going to tell the accused not to be a bad boy in future? Perhaps those valuable police resources will be used for something more substantive next time.

Have fun,


Ian.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Naked_Archer on March 09, 2017, 06:55:59 PM
Well, it certainly has been a sad state of affairs. Perhaps the Ochil Hills walker was pushing his boundaries too far by getting too close to others while naked, and getting naked in a busy car park.  I'm certainly more wary of partaking in any free range naturism now, so I'll probably go back to lurking on the forum...   :-X
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on March 09, 2017, 09:31:42 PM
Find your place compadre. You have our collective wisdom and your stealth craft. Use it wisely and you shall thrive. Getting caught is never an option. You may have to go further. You may have to remain hyper-vigilant. You may have to limit to finding a place and then disrobing, but you shall be gifted with, not robbed of, your sacred solitude and humanity. To quote the great work of I-Ching, "Perseverance furthers."
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on March 10, 2017, 02:44:15 PM

Surprisingly, I have nothing to add!  I too share the sad outrage that the law is so vague and so inconsistently applied and that it exists in this way at all.  The law should be framed from what the person was actually doing, in case it was illegal, offensive etc., other than acting normally but without clothes (which is not illegal*) based on a clear definition of what is an is not offensive in law which doesn't currently seem to exist.  It should be based on the accused giving offense not on a witness/complainant claiming they judged they were offended.  That which it should not be based on is some hysterical woman's personal definition of what might be offensive.  What would the law be like if it simply turned on what one person in the case judged they wanted! To state a parallel - if you are a burglar and get caught you don't rely for the case on what the victim thinks you did i.e. how offended, hurt they were.  That may be material evidence or an important consideration but it is not the reason for the trial - the trial is about the fact that the burglar broke in to a property and stole something i.e. what he/she did not what the victim felt he/she did.


Oh!  I had something to add after all! :)


John
* I use the term 'not illegal' rather than the better grammar 'legal' because it seems to me that what is legal is very unclear whilst what constitutes being illegal is slightly better understood (but not necessarily right) and 'legal' is anything that doesn't fit into the things that are understood or judged to be illegal!
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on March 10, 2017, 04:59:01 PM
Such is the nature of vaguely written laws. Written out of an urge to hand broad discretion to a judge that may see the case from a perspective not specified.

That is what is offensive. Nuduke's point is taken that a law should clearly state that actions, not emotions, are what the case should be about.

Maybe an appeal to the British, US Supreme court equivalent, is in order.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on March 10, 2017, 05:43:59 PM
The courts just throw out vague law in the U.S. It interferes with the constitutions rights. We must all be equal before the law. Each state can specifically make laws giving equal justice and then there is jurisdiction, but law at each level must not give so much latitude to the local judge or create confusion. Practicably, we must know what to expect, if we are to adhere to a law. All laws are held to a test, in the legislative process, or honing, unless some podunk zealot manages to get it passed, and then again in court where the whole can be tossed because a part is vague. Not that that process isn't very confusing and expensive, and manipulated.

Can't legislate morality...rant...rant.

Keep your laws off of MY body...rant...rant...rant.
Jbee

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Naked_Archer on March 11, 2017, 04:11:18 PM
Find your place compadre. You have our collective wisdom and your stealth craft. Use it wisely and you shall thrive. Getting caught is never an option. You may have to go further. You may have to remain hyper-vigilant. You may have to limit to finding a place and then disrobing, but you shall be gifted with, not robbed of, your sacred solitude and humanity. To quote the great work of I-Ching, "Perseverance furthers."
Jbee

I'm ashamed to admit this, but having to be hyper vigilant, simply to be naked,  won't make for a particularly enjoyable day in the countryside.  :-/ I'd rather remain dressed, and enjoy the scenery and relax , rather than be naked, and always being on my guard / hyper vigilant.  :-[
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on March 11, 2017, 05:26:24 PM
And I'll admit that once I started to go naked out in nature those same fears or apprehension were with me also. Quite a few times I was spooked into putting the shorts again. Then at the end of the hike drawing the conclusion that I could have been naked the whole time. As with any other skill or craft it has to be practiced to be mastered.  Soon you will know the ways; simple things like spider webs blocking the path, animals coming toward you instead of running away or noises outside of the norm in nature. Soon you won't be hyper vigilant it will become second nature.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on March 11, 2017, 06:57:42 PM
The courts just throw out vague law in the U.S. It interferes with the constitutions rights. ...

We're still waiting for that in Massachusetts. Here the law we would have to worry about is as follows:

CHAPTER 272. CRIMES AGAINST CHASTITY, MORALITY, DECENCY AND GOOD ORDER.
Section 53. Penalty for certain offenses.
Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment.


Railers and brawlers! We're no better than railers and brawlers! Now, there are legal books in all the public libraries, and I've sat down and looked at the listing of cases prosecuted under 272.53 (which dates back to 1699, by the way, though whether any of it is original is anyone's guess) and I haven't found any where it was used against anyone we'd call a naturist. In some states (Florida and California) the courts held that "lewd conduct" or the like couldn't be used against people being naked without sexual intent. But that hasn't happened here, so there's no way to know how it would go, if someone chose to fight. As we've heard in a recent story here, it's usually easier to get off some other way.

Land of the Pilgrims' pride, indeed.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nuduke on March 11, 2017, 08:37:49 PM

Quote from: Naked_Archer
I'm ashamed to admit this, but having to be hyper vigilant, simply to be naked,  won't make for a particularly enjoyable day in the countryside.


This is an entirely familiar observation to me, Archer.
Most of the forays I make into country or woodland have to be done with extreme caution and on the 'Qui Vive' all the time.  On the occasions when that hasn't been needed the joy of nakedness in nature has been oh so much more deeply enjoyable.  Some of those times have been on visits to CO clubs which, whilst rare in my naturist career, have been several in number.  I remember a visit with Ian Milfmog to a club in SE england some years ago.  I just felt so free of everything on that (October) afternoon that I gave what little stuff I had, to Ian and leapt off totally naked over a meadow, gambolling and running free - free in the open with no need to look over one's shoulder.  For a delicious couple of minutes it felt sooo good.  Do you remember Ian?


John
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: JOhnGw on March 11, 2017, 10:33:52 PM
I've found that a side effect of the additional vigilance we impose on ourselves when walking naked is a more intense awareness of the natural world through which I am walking.

Every cloud is alleged to have a silver lining (although every silver lining would seem to need a cloud).
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: ric on March 12, 2017, 10:28:20 AM
i can relate to the no need to look over the shoulder thing
in years gone by i used to snatch naked time whilst i worked in absent clients gardens , always on the look out for their unexpected return.   several years ago i made took the step of informing a few clients of the fact, largly prompted by one large secluded rural garden where the teenage daughter had learnt to drive and could conceivable have turned up alone at any time whilst i was working.  upshot was whether anyone is at home or not doesnt now make ant difference to how i dress whilst im there.

this new honesty policy  resulted in a one elderly lady quetly returning an hour early from her computer class... "because it was a hot day she thought i might need a cold drink "   another who id told i always knew when she was coming out the house cos the dog came rushing down the garden, sneaking up behind me me with a cup of tea and no dog with the comment that shed left him shut in cos" he had a cold nose and liked sausages".... in both cases from then on i continued to work naked whether they were at home or not.

anyway working in someones garden knowing they are not bothered by my nakedness is a completly different mind set to doing the same thing sureptisiously always on the look out.

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on March 12, 2017, 09:51:41 PM
I have noticed the same correlation, JOhn.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on March 13, 2017, 08:04:13 AM
Like nudewalker says, "It becomes second nature." It becomes easier. Sometimes when it is easy, I forget that I am undressed, I am so used to being naked. I'd be more aware of having clothes on, they are more foreign. My precautions just happen and when the time arises, I become more careful.

 So, like when I'm in DF's urban home, going to get something out of the truck, taking garbage out, outside anywhere naked, I am more vigilant than home, but I am more aware and that is an enhancement of my experience. At home I often wander out not paying attention in some areas of my property. I'm more apt to get seen by others there. Hyper vigilant, turns to second nature and the nude experience is as like JOhnGw says.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on March 13, 2017, 04:16:51 PM
I remember in the old Hiking Naked site there were two threads; "Hiking without a net" and "How far away from your clothes have you been". At the time it seemed to be the supreme challenge as to pushing the envelope for the craft. I did take up the challenge a few times and had one encounter in the process which I aced head on so to speak which resulted in some insight into the behavior of birds adding to my stealth knowledge. As for second nature which I mentioned; part of the problem is one gets so used to being naked at home that your ready to just answer the doorbell, take the garbage out or go get the newspaper off the lawn without thinking of covering up. My wife once joked that instead of a swear jar maybe we should have a reminder jar for those instances she has to remind me to cover up!
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on March 13, 2017, 05:09:53 PM
Just make sure you keep both jars, nudewalker. Since your wife doesn't join you in your naked activities, she would at least be contributing on one front. :D

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on March 13, 2017, 05:32:02 PM
I started hiking naked in New Mexico, USA.  Often the trails were carved out of the side of a steep mountainside, too steep to get off the trail without risking your life.  I would be hiking along enjoying the sunshine when someone going the other direction would come around the next bend of the trail.  One of my most common hiking trails led to a clothing optional hot spring, about 2 miles.  Getting off the trail and hiding just wasn't an option.   The sound of the rushing stream covered any noise the oncoming hikers may have made.  So there you were, naked in the trail, with other hikers coming toward you. 

The options became 1. apologize and cover.  acknowledge dong wrong by being naked.
 or  2.  continue on naked as if nothing was wrong.  Just say "good morning" when you passed close by.

I got quite used to doing the second option.   I also began boldly being naked on other trails even if I could have madly covered or hid.  I declare myself acceptable. I am not some shocking or offensive sight. I am not "indecent" or "obscene" for being me. 

The police really hate hiking up a trail to arrest anyone for a minor problem.  In most areas they won't bother even if someone comes into their station to complain.  The record of witnesses bothering to show up in court is close to zero even if they did find and arrest someone. 

Don't be naked in the parking lot where they can arrest you from their car.  The police is PAID with your money to go to court against you.  He will show up.  Not so for the backwoods witness.   
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on March 13, 2017, 06:06:22 PM
Just make sure you keep both jars, nudewalker. Since your wife doesn't join you in your naked activities, she would at least be contributing on one front. :D

Duane


Since I am the one with more of a potty mouth (although not as bad since retirement so I'm told) contributions to both would be on my part.

  I declare myself acceptable. I am not some shocking or offensive sight. I am not "indecent" or "obscene" for being me. 



Depending on where I'm hiking will depend on my response. Most families avoid the more difficult terrain that is posed by the mountains and hills in West Virginia so I would tend to act more toward not covering and carrying on as I was. Although I must admit that has not happened yet on the trails here yet. Just have my mindset toward not acting guilty. The more remote the better in this case. As for some other trails, especially in Ohio, due to their level and often wide cut pathways families tend to travel them near the water and parking lots. So I carry a cover up to avoid a confrontation. It would be easy for a ranger to be summoned by cell phone and travel there by ATV. Being aware is the key, knowing the law helps (example bare buttocks and breasts are legal in Ohio) and the rest is common sense!
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on March 14, 2017, 11:04:46 PM
Bob, I was trying to locate CO spots in NM once and ran across a place called "Sundial Springs". I was looking for something easily accessed from the interstate, between here and Texas. It's about 60 mi. north of I10 and 150 mi. south of I40.

Have you ever been there? Couldn't find much information about it.

Duane
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on March 15, 2017, 12:31:06 AM
Bob, I was trying to locate CO spots in NM once and ran across a place called "Sundial Springs". I was looking for something easily accessed from the interstate, between here and Texas. It's about 60 mi. north of I10 and 150 mi. south of I40.

Have you ever been there? Couldn't find much information about it.

Duane


The name does not come to my memory.   There was once a short lived CO B&B place at Las Cruces, but it went away and I don't remember the name. 

Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Safebare on March 21, 2017, 09:14:39 PM
I had business in Corpus Christi last week and was able to get down to the National Seashore Thursday afternoon. It was Spring Break week so I was expecting extra traffic, but did not run into any teenage/college crowds. There were more young kids with thier parents.
As usual, I parked at 'the sticks' that bar vehicle traffic within the park and hiked in wearing a sarong. There was a young family with 2 young girls not far into the park exploring the beach. They were examining a large jellyfish that had washed up as I neared. I stayed at the water's edge and not directly walking to them when I exchanged friendly greetings. The father then commented on the number of jellyfish. I acknowledged that there were several, but I had seen it much worse. Oh! He said and then I continued my trek down the beach. In the distance was a lone figure with a large dog. They were obviously enjoying their day. The dog running into the water then into the dunes, bringing found objects for inspection. As I neared the now obvious female leashed up the dog to avoid any unpleasantries with the approaching stranger, me. I told her that was unnecessary as I also had labs at home and am very much a dog person. She responded by bringing the dog to me for a scratch.
We wished each a pleasant day and proceeded on. By then, the family was a good distance up the beach and beyond any visible distinction due to the seaspray glare.  the girl kept the dog leashed up as she approached them. I had nothing but vacant beach as far as the eye could see, removed the sarong any stashed it in my bag.
I went about as far into the park as I had ever before, only turning around when I could start to see vehicles at the other end of the restricted section. I had stowed my bag about 1/2 way, but carried a sock that would keep me 'legal' if I encountered any LEOs. It is really only state law that requires a person to cover his genitals, and this was federal property, but I thought it best to error on the side of caution.
I was wearing the sock when the park police drove up. They came up from behind while I was watching another hiker with a dog walking my way.  At that point, I was almost back to my bag.
They got out of the truck to approach me. They first asked if I knew why they wanted to talk to me. When I said no, he asked if I had anything else to wear. I said that I did, in my bag. So, I got the sarong out of the bag and put it on. He asked about the sock, so I explained that it was required minimal covering under state law. I explained my understanding of federal law about requiring a complaint before action can be taken on a nudity offense. He concurred and informed me that the family had 'lodged' a complaint
He asked if I was dressed like I was then, in the sarong, and I said absolutely! We talked a lot about whether I could have 'flashed' them or opened the sarong to expose my penis. I said there was no way. I had no intention of exposing myself to them and did not. I then explained my encounter with the girl and dog and that there was nothing in either case that I felt was out of line in any way. They said nothing about what happened afterward and I didn't say when my sarong found it's way into the bag.  The father apparently saw me remove the sarong and was offended. I didn't turn back towards them and we were too distant to see details anyway. He certainly couldn't tell if I was wearing anything over my genitals.
Anyway, the LEO said that he was going to speak again with the family and the girl with the dog and that they would let me know where this would lead. 
Back in the day, there were places all up and down the Texas coast where you would find naked humans freely enjoying nature as God intended. Now there are only one or two, and those require constant watch to avoid arrest.  'Encounters . . . What to do?'  Sometimes it doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on March 21, 2017, 10:21:55 PM
Odds are that that won't happen again for a long time. How often would you see a ranger there? They usually go where there are plenty of visitors in an area. Would the father have had to call on a cell phone, and how far away would the rangers be to respond? The rangers were trying to stir things up, if they are going to others to ask if they want to complain.

I wonder if the response would have happened if a woman in a skirt had had the wind blow it up.

 People with kids, especially overly protective fathers with daughters are the dangerous ones. Not a hint of reasonable in them. You did nothing wrong, unusual, or illegal, it sounds, yet there goes this jerk making things up.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on March 21, 2017, 10:28:41 PM
Bob, I was trying to locate CO spots in NM once and ran across a place called "Sundial Springs". I was looking for something easily accessed from the interstate, between here and Texas. It's about 60 mi. north of I10 and 150 mi. south of I40.

Have you ever been there? Couldn't find much information about it.

Duane
There are several hot springs along there. One was renamed. It could have been Sundial at one time.

One of these days, we will make a jaunt out that way. I've got other hotsprings mapped out and some good hiking trails. I have friends who like the organized pay for ones and give high marks. There is also Essence of Tranquility outside of Stafford, if you are traveling the southern route. It isn't 60 miles off the interstate. Passing through on your way to Texas?
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Safebare on March 22, 2017, 07:40:15 PM
The Ranger Station is not far from the entrance. I have only seen a ranger once on this part of the park. Often I see turtle patrols and maintenance vehicles, but not rangers. I have never had cell service near there and suspect they didn't as well. Probably reported it at the park entrance.
I have been here infrequently over the past 30 years. There used to be regulars that I could count on seeing every time I hiked in, always nude. People used to post regularly on spionline.com, but that forum has gone quiet.
I agree that the risk of a similar incident is low. But, my luck lately hasn't been very promising lately.
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: jbeegoode on March 22, 2017, 08:22:26 PM
Yes, and now with a previous record. It is as if that incident is attracting that crappy energy, ala woo woo.
Jbee
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on March 22, 2017, 10:42:59 PM
Encounters with the Rangers leads me to mention my (almost) encounter or near miss with my local Park Rangers. 

Several times I've mentioned the abandoned railroads that have been converted to trails in my area.  They are administered by the State Parks.  In all the times I've been there I have not seen anyone from the State Park administration until this past November (2016).  I arrived naked by car at the Martin Road Trailhead and got out of the car to wander around a bit.  Looking up the trail I noticed this Park Ranger vehicle heading away.  They were going slowly and I had time to get out my camera, set up the tripod, do a long focus, and take this picture.     

(http://photos.bradkemp.com/4martinroadtrailheadranger.jpg)

It was just about noon on a Wednesday.  Maybe they drive down here once a week on Wednesdays.  Or, maybe they only bother in the winter when other parks are not busy. 

"Disrobing" in a Washington State Park is "not a crime" by statute.  Its a "civil offense" and gets the equal of a parking ticket if the Ranger gets up tight about it.   The railroad grade is so long and straight that a hiker could probably see an oncoming pickup well before they could see what someone was wearing.  But there are many cut or fill places where its not really possible to get off the path.    Its mostly boring, mile after mile of straight, flat, trail. 

This is farther along the same trail on a prior occasion:

(http://photos.bradkemp.com/4columbiaplateautrail1.jpg)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: nudewalker on March 23, 2017, 03:29:26 PM
Bob, I remember when they tore out the section of rails near me it was much the same as your pictures but they had not removed the ballast yet so it was available to ride a mountain bike (nude) for quite a few miles. Unlike your area the railroad followed the contour of the land which was along a stream bed so there were those blind spots when the trees began to fill in. When the county parks took it over they sold the limestone ballast and paved the right of way with fine crushed gravel. It is too busy now to even think of any nude excursions there plus it is monitored by bike mounted deputies.

Now there were a few places where spurs led off the main to service some of the mines. I used to ride out there and lock my bike to a tree. Then walk the spur to the old mine area until it became too overgrown to even bushwhack there. 
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: John P on March 23, 2017, 04:19:42 PM
Our group does an annual springtime hike in Vermont along an old railroad grade, the former Hoosac Tunnel and Wilmington, sometimes called the "Hoot, Toot and Whistle" from its initials. If you know the local geography, the trail runs close to the west shore of Harriman Reservoir, directly across from the Ledges, the well-known nude beach. It was May when this picture was taken, but there was ice in this rock cut.

We have had a couple of encounters with other hikers, and sad to say, I can recall being glared at. But in Vermont, the law is on our side.

(http://i.imgur.com/CtRWNd2.jpg)
Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: Bob Knows on March 23, 2017, 05:16:23 PM
When the county parks took it over they sold the limestone ballast and paved the right of way with fine crushed gravel. It is too busy now to even think of any nude excursions there plus it is monitored by bike mounted deputies.


This area is about 20 miles south of Cheney, WA.  Not much out here except dry land cattle ranches, and few of those.  Its too dry for trees.  This area still has its railroad ballast with a little smaller crushed rock on top.  I find it impossible to ride a bicycle on because the tires sink into the gravel.  I tried that once and gave up after a hundred yards or so.  In all the times I've been to this trailhead over the past 10 years I've never seen a single other hiker or rider.   Once I saw another car pull in as I left, but he probably was just stopping to look about and use the restroom.  There is a Geocache about a mile up the path.  I don't know who put it there.

There is another 5 miles of the same trail that runs north of Cheney, WA toward Spokane, WA.   That section is paved with asphalt and divided by a white line for walkers or bicycles.   A few yeas ago I dared to ride a bicycle naked down 4 miles of it, passing a dozen or so other users.   But you have to be very careful.  Being a State Park though, its still legally "not a crime" to be "disrobed" on the trail so I took a chance on it.  They have a "civil" fine like a parking ticket, but there are restrictions on which kind of cop can cite people and issue tickets in parks.   So I took a chance and ignored all the other people I encountered.  I wish I had someone else to ride with. 




Title: Re: Encounters...what to do?
Post by: eyesup on March 31, 2017, 07:37:19 AM
The Sundial Springs I found on the map was located off of hwy 180 about 20 miles north of Buckhorn.

Jbee, I was looking for accessible sites on the way home when I do a road trip.

Safebare, that sounds like the incident at your house with the neighbor. He saw something from afar and was compelled to do something about something he thought he saw.   

Duane