Free Range Naturism

Naturism => Factory Farmed Naturism => Topic started by: peter on February 25, 2014, 09:40:24 AM

Title: Club Visits
Post by: peter on February 25, 2014, 09:40:24 AM
Hi
I recently attended a club open day and evening meal in New Zealand ( it is summer here, or so i'm told). I have been to a few clubs on open days and always been welcome. Walking around a sun club ground is interesting and while friendly and welcoming it certainly has a "caged" or factory farmed feel. You can only walk so far in any direction before turning around to walk back. What experiences do others have of naturism in confined spaces.
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: jbeegoode on February 26, 2014, 06:58:46 PM
Enclosed does feel enclosed, but the security of a designated area gives a certain sense of freedom. I began on free beaches and secluded streams where and when nudity was a norm. Otherwise it was in homes or backyards with pools, etc.

When my wife became pregnant, hiking in the wilds became more difficult and dangerous to a new born and toddler aged child, so we tried the protected resorts.

We had been to St. Martinís Orient Beach for a honeymoon. It was a large area but still we would extend the perimeters. We stayed at another hotel within walking distance. We were nude in the room and when we walked to the nude beach, so it evolved on more than one occasion that a rubber raft was used to cover nude bodies while on that walk. She was able to wander the grounds and even the lobby in just a small g-string. We had to further the freedom on a nude sailing cruise to a nearby deserted island with a group.

The Shangri-La in Phoenix was the first place visited for a babyís concerns. There were no hassles to be found. The place was filled with grandparents ready to dote on the baby. We could get a babysitter and go to nightly events at the club, etc. Still, we pushed out, traveling off property up a wash, under a bridge and on. It was pleasant and comfortable. We stayed the whole week nude, one time. The bare baby once crapped on the owners bare leg, however.  :D

When the child was older, we were divorced and he was old enough to get out freerange in non-landed groups and then he was older still, so that I could leave him for a few days.

I have never been to a resort where I didnít test the possibilities of off the reservation exploration, eventually. I arrive carnuding and thatís how I stay. I am freerange and secret/stealth as need arises. It often feels like just another link in a nude lifestyle.

We enjoy De Anza in California because it is surrounded by miles of wild territory without worries and freedom, but we can return to comforts and their fun events, pool, jacuzzi, etc. It is like a nude world there without a fence.

The older place in that area burnt down, but at that walled place, we trekked up a hill into the woods and rode naked with friends through San Diego to Blacks Beach, for an outing.

There is a nice high end club here in Tucson, but we see no need for it. Maybe once a year, they have an event. The people are overtly conservative, creating a social value, drinking excessively and political atmosphere that is uncomfortable and we just donít fit in. All we have in common is liking to be nude and discussing various resorts. At forty bucks a visit, we can get much further with the money. We do join with a band and play for their annual Hippie Days themed event.

We do spend many Sunday afternoonís with friends at a sweat in town. It is a sort of club of volunteers and donations, that host 12 to 30 at a time. The overall list is a hundred to two hundred at this time. There is the therapy of a sweat, a pool and sunning going on. There is an eclectic spiritual overlay and community of all ages there. Many have known each other for decades. People play music and do yoga, etc. Nudity is not the purpose, or the bond, but an incidental in spite of the fact that most arrive, strip and head to the sweat immediately, leaving clothing in a cubby for the duration. We have quipped, that if there was a Heaven for hippies, that it would be like that place. We donít fall into any of the two extreme identities, but fit in better with the more tolerant and less obnoxious, especially when it is a time to take care of the spirit, body and meditate with others.   

Somehow, any confined space losses its sense of confinement, once I slide into a pool of water. Then the area becomes infinite and safe. A backyard pool, a pond in the in mountains, or an ocean.
Jbee
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: yorknudeguy on January 20, 2015, 12:03:41 PM
Clearly jbeegoode has had mixed experiences in his (?) visits to clothes free venues. Tellingly the nudist Clubs visited were the most negative - even the better ones. That sense of being walled in and the attitudes of the inmates that emanate from that barrier to the world result in some strange cultures and the usual bureaucratic structures that bedevil such places.
The contrast to the freedom of discreet lakes and open country or even the informal culture of "the sweat" confirms my own experience here in the UK and Europe that steers me away from clubs.
One interesting experience to share was of a visit to Costa Natyra in Southern Spain: a lovely small resort but akin to living in a gilded cage - my best times were spent, having escaped, crossed the busy coast road and headed up into the hills.......
Yes "free-range" indeed! 
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: eyesup on January 20, 2015, 05:01:36 PM
I've not been to a club of any kind.  I might eventually, but I haven't as yet.

What is the policy, in general, of these places with the customers going off site to explore?

Duane
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: Karla on January 24, 2015, 11:33:38 AM
We went on the NEWT (Naked European Walking Tour) two years ago. We all hired a single cottage in the Austrian Alps and went out walking every day naked as a group along set paths. We walked by many other hill walkers who were clothed. People don't mind if the whole group is naked. They are more concerned if it's a single person. Apparently even just having a dog with you helps. This seems like a good compromise between completely free-range and factory farmed naturism.
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: Georgew1959 on January 25, 2015, 06:05:21 AM
I haven't visited any of the "sun clubs" or whatever, but I've stayed in a couple of nudist venues  in the UK when I've been travelling on business. Both had limited grounds to walk in but most of the facilities were indoors. That was certainly a lot better than staying in a regular hotel, but was a far cry from the feeling of freedom I get when I'm out naked in wild places, or even just in the countryside.

I like the sound of the NEWT Karla ..... That sounds much closer to free-range than being caged!

Cheers, George
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: balead on July 05, 2015, 07:48:00 PM
I was a member of Spielplatz for a 2 or 3 years in the 80's. I enjoyed the sense of safety and belonging but perhaps ironically not the confinement.

Quote from: peter
You can only walk so far in any direction before turning around to walk back.

Exactly!

I realised that I needed to know that I could be accepted naked in naked company and once that was achieved I didn't need it any more, especially as it was 20 mile bike ride to get there and I knew of two places where I could sunbathe naked about a mile from home. My only restriction there was how far I dare walk rather than being walled in.

Quote from: eyesup
What is the policy, in general, of these places with the customers going off site to explore?

Don't know about in general, but it would be at least frowned upon at Spielplatz as it's in an urban environment!
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: nib on July 05, 2015, 09:16:08 PM
...

What is the policy, in general, of these places with the customers going off site to explore?

Duane

Generally hostile!

In the UK at least many clubs try to hide, and far from being able to walk out of the gates there may even be places inside where you are discouraged from going if it's possible to be glimpsed from outside.

Also at the big organised events on commercial sites, there has been serious reaction to naturists being seen outside by locals close to the event.

Cheers,
nib
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: jbeegoode on July 06, 2015, 09:59:38 PM
I've not been to a club of any kind.  I might eventually, but I haven't as yet.

What is the policy, in general, of these places with the customers going off site to explore?

Duane
This side, most are owned by someone who needs to be protective of the investment. I believe that this has much to do with ANRR's attitude toward freerange activities. A good relationship is cultivated amongst the locals and they are concerned about some new fool getting seen and making waves in the textile community. The further out in the country, the less concern. For instance, at De Anza it is wide open and they are more concerned about people wandering off without water, to rattlesnakes or injuries, or getting lost.

Glen Eden has been around since the much earlier more hostile times and still harbors a sense of being intimidated by the outsiders. There are now subdivisions encroaching on the space. We felt like secret naturist leaving the property, not only because we were in the public domain nude, but also because we felt we needed to be kinda sneaky going freerange, so as not to upset the nudist who lived there (it's a cooperatively owned membership). 
Jbee
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: Davie on July 07, 2015, 09:11:28 AM
With the exception of one club were the Chair, Treasurer and Secretary interrogated my wife and I as she remained dressed as she was not feeling to well we have always have a great welcome at clubs we've visited. Even the one were my wife managed to lock herself in the loo and they had to dismantle the door. (Good ice-breaker!) We've had warm welcomes too in New Zealand too

Davie  8)
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: jbeegoode on July 07, 2015, 05:44:02 PM
I haven't had much more than good welcomes, myself. I've felt the stress and shuffle from people when checking in at a busy time. Mira Vista's welcome has been more business, get the money and cold, or should I say serious and professional-like.

 There was once a place out in Maricopa County, a ma and pa metal fence place, that questioned me and eyed me suspiciously and questioned me some more. I not only was a single guy thing, but I got a heavy dose of single guy with a five year old. They were so concerned about me being some kind of molester, that they were creepy and insulting, dampening the whole experience, I almost left during the stunning interrogation. All we wanted was to have some fun, mostly in the pool. It is gone.

I once showed up at Shangrala in PHX single with child and found myself being watched, monitored by staff suspiciously. It was a far cry from the welcome I got before the divorce and would hang out there with my cute wife and baby. Once during a weeks stay, staff and members through a surprise Birthday party for me. Must have been 40 people singing to me, eating cake in their Birthday suits.
I couldn't have felt more welcome.
Jbee
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: Bob Knows on July 07, 2015, 08:39:19 PM
I had similar experiences with the AANR clubs.  Many of them are strongly discriminator against men and particularly single men -- though they deny being discriminatory.  I also went from welcome married man to suspicious male after my wife filed for a divorce.  They can keep it.  I only go where I'm welcome. 
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: reubenT on July 16, 2015, 08:23:44 AM
Without realizing it,  or thinking about it,  They are acting like  'possibly guilty until proven innocent'   It should be the other way around.          Does a single man,  or man and child,  get looked at suspiciously if he's normally clothed and goes camping at a regular campground?     Doubt it,   I never heard of it.    Shouldn't be any different at a naturist campground.   If it is then the operators haven't entirely left behind the attitudes of the clothing obsessed who are suspicious of all nude activities. 
    My natural shyness makes me very uncomfortable with any form of lack of trust, or suspicion.   Hearing about it makes me think I'll have to be really sure I'm welcome before I go anywhere.   However I also know I can be a benefit to wherever I go,  my skills knowledge and products I don't mind sharing when occasion allows.     I suppose I could possibly kind of break the "ice"  if I showed up the first time with a box full of natural goodies.   Home grown tasty fresh food. 
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: eyesup on July 16, 2015, 07:42:22 PM
I can see how, from a legal perspective, a business (CO club) would be somewhat apprehensive at finding themselves complicit with a pedophile. But since I've never been to a CO club, I have no experience to be able to evaluate that.

My guess is that Reuben is close to the mark. Whether they should be cautious in allowing a single adult with a child onto the property can be evaluated upon their entry with a few well worded questions, as Jbee related, without it turning into an interrogation.

After that, leave them alone, you have to accept them, or make the rule "No Single Adults Allowed", even if you have a child with you. Although I doubt the authorities would hesitate to being an action if something did happen at a CO club.

If, as Reuben says, it was a camp ground, a different set of rules would be applied.

Duane
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: jbeegoode on April 18, 2016, 07:58:46 PM
I have often considered a trip across country nude. Besides the havens of old and dear friends, I would make naturist resorts safe harbors during the trip.

 There are places to camp in nature that must be found, but often require luck and a great deal of research to know that they are secure. The amazing public lands in the USA are a wonderful venue to explore. These however, rarely provide a nice hot shower and when nude, a certain solitude must be maintained, limiting social interaction with locals.

A nude national tour, stopping at factory farmed spots, would make a great deal of sense, naked on the long road with hostile potentials. Hopping from swimming pool to lake with full facilities with a free range naturist's interim makes good sense.

There is something to be said about just the challenge of free range travel, using ones wits, but a break here and there can be welcome.

One more thought. I haven't traveled more than a week at a time free-range and these provided destinations. If out there nude for extended time periods pushing boundaries every step of the way, does one get wary from the push, or does the acquired more secure, or relaxed sense continue, or expand even more? I know that more free range makes for more confidence and adeptness. The lack of clothing becomes the nature and soon the encumbrance of it becomes abhorrent an resentment builds. Too much resentment can be relieved by a safe haven and accepting fellow naturists in an environment where life is closer to what things could, or should be.
Jbee
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: Bob Knows on April 19, 2016, 01:04:17 AM
I have often considered a trip across country nude. Besides the havens of old and dear friends, I would make naturist resorts safe harbors during the trip.

I did that back in the early 1990s when I was a member of AANR.  I had their resort guide and my family.  My kids were younger teens about then.  We had a good time stopping at places across America.  Most of them were pretty well empty during the middle of the week.  They were inexpensive camping places with the added benefits of clothing not required and often a hot tub and pool.
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: Elliot on October 25, 2016, 06:12:45 AM
We... ...went out walking every day naked as a group along set paths. We walked by many other hill walkers who were clothed. People don't mind if the whole group is naked. They are more concerned if it's a single person. Apparently even just having a dog with you helps.  ...
This jumped out at me!  This concept is vital to promoting wholesome Naturist values.  Much of the current fear of nudity is rooted in the lone pervert.  Ask any lady -- she probably encountered one in her youth.  That's what we are up against.  And the more there are of us in a group, the more legitimate we appear.  Remember Arlo Guthrie -- ...they might think it's a movement".  And that's what it is.   :)
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: Bob Knows on October 25, 2016, 05:14:23 PM
We... ...went out walking every day naked as a group along set paths. We walked by many other hill walkers who were clothed. People don't mind if the whole group is naked. They are more concerned if it's a single person. Apparently even just having a dog with you helps.  ...
This jumped out at me!  This concept is vital to promoting wholesome Naturist values.  Much of the current fear of nudity is rooted in the lone pervert.  Ask any lady -- she probably encountered one in her youth.  That's what we are up against.  And the more there are of us in a group, the more legitimate we appear.  Remember Arlo Guthrie -- ...they might think it's a movement".  And that's what it is.   :)

Indeed.  Naked people need to bunch up and go naked where we get seen.  Let ourselves be a movement.   
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: jbeegoode on October 26, 2016, 06:42:05 PM
Yea, there is something emboldening about being with others. It feels different with DF at my side, but a larger group seems to take ownership. It is as if there is some democratic majority rule that takes over. It also looks more like a club event as less easy to misinterpret.

When we were young, we would arrive at a pond and claim it to be nude. It seemed to make sense. The established majority shouldn't have to change for the minority. That was faulty thinking as per the law, but I wonder if this reflects group psychology, like peer pressure and innate conformity behaviors.

I have always had my concerns about Bob's bold trail behaviors while alone.  But attempting to look at it from the others, the textile's point of view, being in a group should be more effective and safer. A-holes and jerks will also curb their lewd remarks and may leer more subtly. There would be less alarm as has been mentioned.


Alice's Restaurant has been quoted once again, and within just a couple of weeks! Good to see that the principles and attitude haven't ended up on the Group W bench.
Jbee
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: Bob Knows on October 27, 2016, 01:52:15 AM
The established majority shouldn't have to change for the minority. That was faulty thinking as per the law, but I wonder if this reflects group psychology, like peer pressure and innate conformity behaviors.


The majority should not have to change for a minority, but being the majority does not give them rights to own and control the minority.  An effective government protects the rights of the minority to make their own decisions.   Nobody is telling ore even asking the majority to go naked, but that does not mean they have a legitimate right to demand that we wear their clothes. 

Thomas Jefferson wrote about religion, "it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."   That goes for demanding clothing too.  If I am not wearing clothes it neither picks the pocket nor breaks the leg of my neighbor.  It is not his right to demand my conformance to his religious standards.



Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: nudewalker on October 27, 2016, 06:10:34 PM
Once again in this election cycle there is the usual bombardment of my inbox, social media and such that one must vote "Christian" values but they often mean taking away rights of those who don't agree. I like your quote from Thomas Jefferson Bob, as long as it doesn't hurt my pocket or body who cares. Remembering the days of the "moral majority" who claimed the right to force us into their vision. They will want to cover us like John Ashcroft covered ststues!
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: jbeegoode on October 27, 2016, 07:48:16 PM
I so love T.J. I've read it all, over and over.
Jbee
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: nuduke on October 27, 2016, 11:26:26 PM
Jefferson was a utilitarian, was he not? Greatest good for greatest number.  As such he might have been against naturism!!
Quote from: Bob
Thomas Jefferson wrote about religion, "it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."   That goes for demanding clothing too.  If I am not wearing clothes it neither picks the pocket nor breaks the leg of my neighbor.  It is not his right to demand my conformance to his religious standards....
...In that nudity might be your religion, Bob :D 
I entirely agree with those Jeffersonian and Bobknowsian sentiments!
John
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: John P on October 28, 2016, 04:38:01 AM
Well, when it's Jefferson and his life, "being the majority does not give them rights to own and control the minority" has a certain meaning. Think of Sally Hemings, and all the others. But Sally most of all.

When he did think about where it was all leading, he said "I tremble for my country when I recollect that God is just".
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: MartinM on October 28, 2016, 08:59:33 AM
Jefferson was a utilitarian, was he not? Greatest good for greatest number.  As such he might have been against naturism!!
Quote from: Bob
Thomas Jefferson wrote about religion, "it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."   That goes for demanding clothing too.  If I am not wearing clothes it neither picks the pocket nor breaks the leg of my neighbor.  It is not his right to demand my conformance to his religious standards....
...In that nudity might be your religion, Bob :D 
I entirely agree with those Jeffersonian and Bobknowsian sentiments!
John
Greatest good for the greatest number surely comes from cultivating tolerance and openness, except to behaviour that is shown to be damaging. Everyone is in a minority in some sense, so majority rules would put everyone in straight-jackets. Freedom to be ourselves, while respecting others' choices to do likewise, allows us all to breath. Anyway, being more exposed to nudity has been shown to be healthy, both pyhsically and mentally.

Greatest good for the greatest number isn't necessarily the result of a democratic vote. There are plenty of examples where the majority have opted for more repressive regimes. Tolerance is a principle that needs expounding as good for all. Too many want laws simply to reflect how they like things, without consideration of other viewpoints.
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: jbeegoode on October 28, 2016, 10:36:06 AM
Jefferson was a utilitarian, was he not? Greatest good for greatest number.  As such he might have been against naturism!!
Quote from: Bob
Thomas Jefferson wrote about religion, "it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."   That goes for demanding clothing too.  If I am not wearing clothes it neither picks the pocket nor breaks the leg of my neighbor.  It is not his right to demand my conformance to his religious standards....
...In that nudity might be your religion, Bob :D 
I entirely agree with those Jeffersonian and Bobknowsian sentiments!
John
T.J. wrote the Bill of Rights, which protects the minority and individual from the dictates of the majority. He was a renaissance man, who loved correspondence with others and the liberation brought to knowledge and education. He often enjoyed change. He feared the ignorant emotional masses and majorities, in a democracy. That was much of his rational for universal education and higher educational opportunities, free speech and public libraries.

Like anyone else, his opinions and outlook changed/evolved over time. I'm sure that his statement about a revolution is good from time to time reflected the spirit of the times, but he did organize the constitution to be a tool of flexibility for change to occur without violence.

As for this Sally Hemmings controversy. It is unfounded misrepresentation of history by a resentful 20th century outlook. He was a gentlemen of the times, aristocratic and raise as such, and among his peers. The culture was established and like so many things still today, most people didn't question it. At that time, slavery was accepted norm. It wasn't questioned. Most people actually believed that there was an inferior race and many other prejudices with little question.  How many assumptions still exist today as norm and trusted? They didn't have access to alternatives statistics, or media. The world was generally ignorant, but for the influences provided in local areas. If someone was raised in such circumstance then I canít blame them, or hate them, or point my finger at them for participating, or approving of it. ďForgive them for they no not what they do, ď someone once said. Jefferson actually was aware and wrote in concern and questioned the issue. He considered liberation. He had dilemma with the idea of freeing his slaves. He had a relationship with Sally that we can only speculate about. The evidence showed a very caring lover in a conflicting social moral conundrum of those times. He didnít grow up in these times where it is easy to dismiss the norms of 250 years ago. These so called intellectuals and the liberals with chips on their shoulders kinda alarm me when they expect people of another era to behave the same as today's common sense allows and then show the stupidity to demonize historic people, to top it off.

Our bodies are persecuted by the current ignorance. People donít question it and there are degrees of that and opinions change over time. We are victims of a democratic process years ago, that created the laws, and is supported by ignorance. T.J. would have defended us. In his times, the many families lived in a very small tight homes, or a cabin. Separate bedrooms were for the rich, often. There had to be some family nudity to be practical. There were the famous revolutionary forefathers who skinnydipped, grew up without swim suits, and expounded airbaths. Society was probably less uptight than today about such things generally, particularly for males. Remember, we must put an 18thcentury womenís place into the context. We need to apply that thinking and social norm to the Sally issue, too.

With all of this in consideration, I believe that T.J. would certainly lend support to us to a great extent. If he had been able to join this forum with us, he probably would agree with us. The guy was complex and wrote volumes for decades. His opinions changed, he couldn't always be on foolproof target, but he always sought the truth and did his best to get behind it.
Jbee
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: nuduke on October 29, 2016, 01:57:03 PM
Quote from: MartinM
Greatest good for the greatest number surely comes from cultivating tolerance and openness

Utilitarianism was (and probably still is) an effort to answer to the practical question ďWhat ought a man to do?Ē Its answer is that he ought to act so as to produce the best consequences possible.
I believe Utilitarianism was born from a group of thinkers that did think the way you indicate they should have, and on the whole Utilitarianism gave birth to many positive reforms, influences and changes in society such as a shift in legal punishments from being for retribution to being for personal penance, the rise of modern democracy was very much influenced and the way we regard our democratic governments these days.  Jefferson's Bill of Rights was, I believe much influenced by Utilitarian principles.  However, Martin, you are right.  Utilitarianism at it's root contains elements that we would today consider negative (and indeed were considered by the contemporaries of Jefferson to be so) such as societal hegemony and coercion on the individual (for the greater good), the individual choice of the greatest good which may in fact be very far from that for others.  Bentham, an original Utilitarian, advocated the maximisation of personal pleasure and benefit but others such as Karl Popper have reversed that meaning by defining the aim of Utilitarianism as the minimisation of pain.  Bentham's views were quite dictatorial in many ways. 

I think also that Jefferson, Mill, Bentham and all of these people and their views were, as Jbee very eloquently points out, developed and promulgated within the morals and views of their time and look to us today differently than when they were new.  Read Jbee's papragraph beginning:
Quote
As for this Sally Hemmings controversy...
which sums up the responses to the paradox, raised by your very incisive comment.

As an aside (what else in the FRN forum? :) ) it is obvious that Jbee has been deeply influenced by Jefferson and in fact, despite my previous generalisation in an earlier post, I agree with his assertion that Jefferson would have defended us in his times and in ours (except perhaps if the greater good were seriously negatively affected).  I am off to read more on the life of Jefferson.  I feel exposed with no real knowledge!

Actually that prompts me to add, just before I sign off this one, reading my own post above, I would not want anyone to assume any credible level of authority or depth of knowledge from my remarks.  My knowledge of Utilitarianism or any philosophical ism is merely the product of 'A Little Knowledge' gleaned from a book of that name and a few other complete layman's guides to philosophy etc.  That memory and a little web-checking informs my response above so in fact it could be total bollocks (philosophical debating term there) and I would ever refer to Jbee for a deeper apprehension of these things than I.  Mine just sounds good, the empty vessel making the most (floridly written) sound!

John
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: John P on October 29, 2016, 04:05:32 PM
Thomas Jefferson didn't write the Bill of Rights; James Madison did (mostly).

Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: jbeegoode on October 29, 2016, 09:23:11 PM
Thomas Jefferson didn't write the Bill of Rights; James Madison did (mostly).
Madison has been getting way more credit these last 20 plus years, and Jefferson attacked and diminished. This is a corporate, business interpretation of history perpetrated by a couple of Koch bro backed think tanks. Te American Heritage Foundation was one of the early propaganda mills that began to spread this stuff.

Not to dismiss Madison, but I have to disagree. Of course Jefferson didn't do it alone. It was Jefferson's thinking, influence that made much of the push. Jefferson's philosophy and writing skills, original drafting, but in the context of prevailing attitudes and lessons of the times. There is a great deal of practicality. Much was obviously a reaction to abuse from the occupying forces, like second amendment issues, billeting troops in homes, safe with your papers, speech issues and more. The Bill of Rights is filled with stuff that they just wanted to end and had learned the value of on a deeper level as the ideal of the concept of free men. Reading deeper into Jefferson's letters and work over time, it is revealed that his influence, educational background and philosophizing broadened the discussion and use, of issues that were reactions to the abuse. He had been on to the ideals before and after the revolution.

Well, not to get off of naturist issues...I digress.
Jbee
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: John P on October 29, 2016, 11:35:26 PM
I did a little searching around, and on the American Civil Liberties Union's website they say this:

The American Bill of Rights, inspired by Jefferson and drafted by James Madison, was adopted, and in 1791 the Constitution's first ten amendments became the law of the land.

Is that a compromise you can accept?
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: nuduke on October 30, 2016, 05:41:50 PM
Last night I did some assorted reading on Jefferson's biography, politics, writing etc.  What an amazing, renaissance man that could truly be labelled a polymath and possibly a genius. The breadth of his expertise and achievement just fill one with deep depression that one man can achieve so much in such a relatively short time compared to one's own efforts that if they achieve a mere 0.1% of what TJ achieved, it would still be a full and successful life!
I can understand now why you admire the man, JBee.
John 
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: eyesup on October 30, 2016, 11:54:51 PM
Jefferson has always been one of my favorite Americans.

He wrote the Declaration of Independence single handedly.

I have a copy of the draft version annotated by Franklin et.al., a copy of the edited version from Congress and of course the final copy.

It is interesting to see what was added and what was removed. Jefferson's original had slavery listed as one of his grievances against the crown, which Franklin left in place. Congress removed it.

There but for the stroke of a pen . . .!

Duane

Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: jbeegoode on November 01, 2016, 01:13:12 AM
I have several letters written to Madison by Jefferson in concern for a bill of rights and other titles to a similar topic, between 1785 to 1789. One even commends Madison for some original ideas that Jefferson says he hadn't thought of when he first was presented with them. There was clearly a discourse previous to arriving at the final product. Remember Jefferson was stuck in Paris during some of this key time. The founding fathers bantered back and forth coming from numerous sources of knowledge, including even injecting the principles of the Magna Carta and other significant works. The arrival of the document was a complex process derived from collaboration from far and wide, over time. Nobody can claim pure credit for its inception. There are a particular fighters and creators, but I can't justify discounting my appreciation for any of the men that ultimately caused inception the document and that are now rolling around in their graves distraught.

Now, that the matter is left properly less settled...

...Was it Madison or Adams that has been credited for regular skinny dips in the Potomac River? Franklin skinnydipped and did air baths. People bathed and swam in rivers commonly, but not in mixed company and women were not equal nor liberated.
Jbee
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: eyesup on November 01, 2016, 05:16:32 PM
I am not familiar with that tale.

Based on my limited knowledge of the two men if I had to pick I would pick Adams. Madison was an intellectual and was not a robust man. He stayed mostly on his property, studied and didn't travel much.

Adams, on the other hand, not only traveled, but dragged his son John Q. with him everywhere. He strikes me as a man that knew his mind and was an independent thinker of the same cloth as Franklin. Although I don't think the two liked each other much.

His wife, Abigail, was a major influence in his life and work and managed to step outside the traditional wifely role. She is a fascinating woman.

Duane
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: John P on November 02, 2016, 03:23:18 AM
Here's something on the Internet saying it really happened, so it must be true:
http://www.upi.com/blog/2012/08/20/American-politicians-who-loved-skinnydipping/8511345475085/

The skinny-dippin' president wasn't John Adams, but John Quincy Adams. Adams Senior was a bit of a dry old stick, and probably wouldn't have done such a thing. As I recall in David McCullough's book about him, there was an occasion during the Revolution where John Adams and Ben Franklin went on a trip to try to negotiate a settlement with the British. Along the way they shared a bed at an inn (don't clutch your pearls: that was quite common in those days) and Franklin, being the fresh-air fiend he was, wanted the window open. Adams had the sensible 18th-century certainty that night air was likely to kill you. (The negotiations with the British failed; history doesn't record who won the window war.)

Nowadays if you look up <swim Potomac> you'll find lots of references like "Terrible water quality in the Potomac River is forcing officials to cancel the swimming portion of Washington, D.C.'s, annual 9/11 triathlon." It wouldn't have stopped Teddy Roosevelt. Men should be men, he'd have said.
Title: Re: Club Visits
Post by: eyesup on November 02, 2016, 03:42:23 PM
Being on the internet is no guarantee of "truthiness".
I've run across articles about presidents skinny dipping in the WH pool. Not so many of them swam in the river. I would have wanted to meet the reporter. She sounded interesting.

The renting of a spot in a bed was common. I have run across that in articles before.
You could end up in a room with 2 or 3 strangers all who had rented a spot.  In a large bed.
It is a far cry from the pampered experiences we get today.

Teddy had asthma and heart issues as a child. His father was disappointed. Teddy made up his mind young to defeat the deficient body he was handed. He did.

Duane