Author Topic: Beach etiquette (UK)  (Read 13399 times)

BlueTrain

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #60 on: April 03, 2018, 05:47:11 PM »
Oh, I think it would be rude to take anyone's photo without their permission, with or without clothing.

Peter S

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2018, 06:39:25 PM »
Oh, I think it would be rude to take anyone's photo without their permission, with or without clothing.

I tend agree with Bob in principle, but understand the etiquette of 'no pictures' given how they can be used in these days of social media and mass hysteria. Equally I can understand BT's courtesy stance. But having to courteously ask the clothed someone's permission would destroy a large proportion of tourist photographs and videos, which often have a wide range of strangers in them. As a rule of thumb, I'd say if you're in a public place and can be seen, then a photo is no different from an eyeball.

As has been commented about celebrities whose naked images get hacked and posted online, if you don't want people to see your naked photos, don't be photographed naked.

peter
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BlueTrain

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #62 on: April 03, 2018, 06:51:25 PM »
I have read of people becoming wildly upset if their child happens to be in the way of a photo being taken of something else in a public place. But given what you say, perhaps that's why more people wouldn't dare be nude in public where they might seen, innocently or not.

eyesup

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #63 on: April 03, 2018, 07:23:32 PM »
Jbee, I like your description of an unofficial, sort of ad hoc welcoming committee. Not a person with a title. But folks that want to maintain the open nature of a site while not risking a legal challenge by someone that misinterprets what is going on. 1st time visitors find out up front what the general expectations are. Not society norms but those historical ones that apply to what the participants would like to see at a place they cherish.

Quote from: Jbee
It is often the behavior of people to not be friendly, to give others space.
I would use the word respect or consideration, but I get what you mean by unfriendly. Some people just want to be alone with their thoughts and if they wish, can come visit at a later time.

Being able to wander off and come back and find your stuff still there is great. I would consider body freedom to be included among personal rights but it doesn’t hurt to reinforce that!

Duane

eyesup

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2018, 08:03:19 PM »
I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect to not be seen and/or photographed while out in public, naked or otherwise. Although an up-close photo is one thing as opposed to a wide angle of an area. Some people go out specifically to be seen and don’t care while others don’t care for it.

Paparazzi are predators that feed on celebrities and have had injunctions similar to a restraining order filed because they HAVE no restraint. It’s a mixed bag and if you are snapping photos you had better be good at reading people or you might be headed home wearing the camera.

Duane

Greenbare Woods

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2018, 08:50:05 PM »

I tend agree with Bob in principle, but understand the etiquette of 'no pictures' given how they can be used in these days of social media and mass hysteria. Equally I can understand BT's courtesy stance. But having to courteously ask the clothed someone's permission would destroy a large proportion of tourist photographs and videos, which often have a wide range of strangers in them. As a rule of thumb, I'd say if you're in a public place and can be seen, then a photo is no different from an eyeball.

Exactly.  A photo these days can "go viral" if its something that people are interested in, but most photos languish about in a friend's photo album.   When we say that NUDE photos are banned then we are saying that NUDITY is somehow wrong, embarrassing, or offensive.   Its part of the "run and hide" mentality that has kept nudism off of main street for a century. 

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As has been commented about celebrities whose naked images get hacked and posted online, if you don't want people to see your naked photos, don't be photographed naked.
peter


Naked photos of Mrs. Trump didn't seem to hurt anyone when they were shared by almost everyone. 

It was not too long ago that I changed my mind and started sharing nude selfies.  I concluded that hiding who I am because I'm naked is anti-nudist no matter what my excuse.   In the few years since I started sharing my nude photos I've found that nobody really cares.   My friends know I'm a nudist anyway.   My body has identifiable particulars but in general is like a billion other humans, nothing special, not offensive, not unique, not embarrassing. I claimed myself and my own image. 

I am convinced that the "Nudist" rule against photos is part of promoting nudism as a "hidden" vacation at factory nude farms behind fences.   We need to demand nudity on Facebook, on Twitter, and everywhere else.  Humans are more beautiful than cats.

Bob
Human bodies are natural, comfortable, and green.
To see more of Bob you can view his personal photo page
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jbeegoode

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #66 on: April 03, 2018, 11:23:53 PM »
I generally agree with Bob that my body should not be shamed, shaming or made issue of. I agree that the more naked people seen the better.

On the other hand, we live in a context of prudery, nasty games, people that look down on nude people. Nudity can be contentious among families and other social situations, or churches and is just not worth the hassle to stand up as yourself for many situations. It is the issue of privacy. These new media have blown our privacy in many cases. People don't care if they see me naked, and I don't care, but I'd not want it used against me or conflict with a valued relationship with others who are of value, too. I'm not just a naked guy. I am much more. I don't want to be diminished or pocketed as that. It is merely a part of me. There is some value with privacy.  just make policy to be as real and myself as I can and promote nudity. So, I don't care who sees me nude in person, but I could have a problem with photos.

I also like to be able to present myself as I wish, and as is my right. I like to control which pic is seen, as pics don't always even look like us. I am constantly wrangling with which photos to publish of particularly those of DF. Her only rule is that she looks good. Mine is that photos are of a quality that they could not, or would not be desirable to lift, steal and republish as pornography. I wouldn't want anyone to see us as if we had participated in porn and get the wrong idea about us. So, there can be misuse and there can be vanity.

When I look at many of the photos of DF's face on my website, she looks different. Many shots don't even particularly look like her. She could be anywhere from 30 to 60's something. Our bodies change, and any angle will distort the person, which I use to advantage, or I toss out quite a few. I'd prefer to have that control, rather than someone else, a stranger take a photo that misrepresents me. We still use anonymous names. We don't need the recognition and we like to defend ourselves from the outside world to some extent, ie. privacy. I still live in an unjust ignorant world, so I bend a bit, as little as possible, a lot of value weighing, less and less as time goes on, but I do bend.

We don't want anyone but us publishing our photos on the net without permission with or without clothing, or writing about us, for that matter.
Jbee

« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 11:30:52 PM by jbeegoode »
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BlueTrain

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2018, 11:43:40 AM »
Sharing nude photos of yourself, your "real self," can be a little like me insisting on others listening to my favorite Slovenian folks tunes. It is simply not something they want to see (or hear), even when it's a really good girl group playing the music. In a sense, you're harassing them.

ric

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #68 on: April 04, 2018, 02:12:02 PM »
As a longtime photographer I've always ignored the no cameras  dictat.  Now we're digital with instant playback I'd be happy to show anyone my pics of seagulls, waves , shiny stones or whatever......but nobody has ever asked.

I guess the difference between somebody  openly taking pics of variedsubjects  and someone trying to sneak snaps of other people is quite obvious.

Any landscape shots I always ensure any included people are insignificant enough Tobe unrecognizable.

Greenbare Woods

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #69 on: April 04, 2018, 02:34:38 PM »
Sharing nude photos of yourself, your "real self," can be a little like me insisting on others listening to my favorite Slovenian folks tunes. It is simply not something they want to see (or hear), even when it's a really good girl group playing the music. In a sense, you're harassing them.

I strongly disagree, BT.  The whole concept that photos of people are "harassing" other people is nuts.  It insists on the textile notion that the mere sight of another human, a member of our own species, is somehow harmful or hurtful.  It perpetuates the "hide behind fences" mystique of factory farm nudism.

The opposite is true.  Humans are endlessly fascinated with other humans.  We are arguably the most social species.  We spend endless hours watching other humans on media, reading about other humans, and gathering in groups of other humans.  Somewhere around half of all internet traffic is humans looking at photos of naked humans.  Over on Twitter, Me-We, Tumbler, and most social media except Facebook abound with photos of humans showing themselves.  Even on Facebook many people post photos with minimal screening of prohibited "parts."

So I disagree, BT.  People DO want to see the other people we meet and correspond with.  We feel a bit "cheated" when we never see them.  The public message of nudist organizations is "body acceptance," all bodies are good.  That public message is the right one.  It is contradicted by all the nudists who support the textile theory that seeing a human being is "harassment" of the other person, so we have to be hidden. 

We are the most beautiful species, all of us.  Even you BT.  Just because we are old we are still beautiful humans.  We have a right to be seen and we are a pleasure for people to see. 

Bob
Human bodies are natural, comfortable, and green.
To see more of Bob you can view his personal photo page
http://www.photos.bradkemp.com/greenbare.html

BlueTrain

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #70 on: April 04, 2018, 03:41:20 PM »
We're the most social species?  Not from what you read on this forum, we aren't. But perhaps it only applies to us, the one-half of one percent who somehow believe we're normal and everyone else is abnormal. On the other hand, if the others are prudes, or so it is said here, then we're imprudent. Anyway, to suggest that others don't mind looking at pictures of our naked selves is assuming something that may not be so. The current expression is "too much information."

I don't do Facebook, Twitter or any of those sorts of things.

I also don't think that "body acceptance" is necessarily a good thing. It's another way of say, let yourself go, and some have taken it to heart. No doubt by now, you're thinking that you probably don't want to meet me. But that's okay. I am not a social nudist. I don't belong to any club. No one has a right to see me, nor do I wish to be seen. I'll leave the part about how beautiful (or handsome) I am to your imagination.

jbeegoode

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2018, 07:24:38 PM »
Blue Train and Bob, I'm gonna weigh in and at least dance about.

There is the question that we might be the most social species.
The world is populated by herds, packs, prides, gangs, etc. of various social structures of animals and they are all naked. Their social interaction seems to be more focused on the essential ball. The a sense of larger, or more attractive is evident for procreation, and survival. Animals have naturally occurring features.

We humans are starved by our obsession with clothing and it perverts our natural sense of self, assuming that natural is naked like the rest of the creation. When people interact naked, they will tend to be more natural, that is less reliant on clothing. The complexity of social order dictated by clothing is gone. My experience with social nudity, what I have read psychologically, and anecdotal consensus among naturist and organized nudists is that taking off the drapes makes one more open. Vulnerability creates natural spontaneous  function.

So, we are certainly social beings, we are complex and we use clothing for attraction and dominance, or survival. Instead of many species, we have many tribes. we have tribes of two, of four, of larger proportions. So, I don't know if we are more social, but we are and we manufacture attractions like other species. But, we can have creative choices and it would seem that clothing gaming is a natural behavior in humans.

When a clothed game is played, it is threatening for those involved to have the support of their artificial game removed. They will build a whole structure, support and power around clothing. Naked is a whole new game and a challenge to them. When power structure is gone and more vulnerability ensues, there is much less of a cooperative game, or society. Even in social nudity, some individual will want more advantage and find a way to upset the equality cart that nudity gives.

If we don’t generate a clothing game, then we will have body style games, or other attempts to display and have advantages. Stronger, faster, more wealthy, more pleasurable interactions, or a million other games will be created.

So, there are two ends of the spectrum of human context, a cooperative, more egalitarian, more naked and helpful and then a more competitive game. We will be attracted to both. We need to recognize both within ourselves.
 
I notice that when I refuse to play an established game, the stakeholders get threatened and even freak out. This is what is happening when I bump into the resistance to my nude body. I’m a game changer to them, not just a guy with a lack of dress.

There is also the normal and abnormal question.
It is all normal. There is resistance to change in our nature and change in our nature. When getting uncomfortable it is a reaction to a threat. To declare something abnormal can only be a statement of statistic, after that it is a display of threat to the control of the norm and identity.

Before the complication of life and the greater numbers of us in less space and resource, we had a more ecological existence for many millennia. I have learned that our bodies adapted to this in extremely complex way. Something has been lost after being overcome by the simplistic notions of a humanity, we are not that intelligent, who falls into the same control threat syndrome and loses balancing.” Ivory towers” has been an example. Trusting the body, trusting yourself, is an example of the other end.

Body acceptance is the antithesis of body shame. Shame sucks, taking advantage of shame is not being a cooperative being. Again balance.

One needs to accept the scars of life as medals or a matter of fact. Stretchmarks are examples of motherhood, something to be proud of, to respect, appreciate, to love. Some scars are reminders that a person is a warrior in so challenge in life.

Saggy boobs are standards of age, but also can be statements of poor health and lifestyle.

If I have a couch potatoes body, then I need to accept that I am a couch potato and be seen that way, or change, but it is my choice to make, not something to hide or disguise. Clothing enhances “letting a body go.” To me, there is wonderful diversity and the most beautiful, or attractive, is that which is healthier.

It has occurred to me that being less judgmental is a virtue and that is acceptance. It is positional and positional behavior gets us trapped into a corner. It is unhealthy, or unwise. It exhibits the desire for control and then conflict. When I judge my body, or others bodies, I am doing both. Being naked in my “flaws” I can freely change and be in reality without conflicts. Conflict can strengthen, but it is also a trap and a burden to others.

All of this gets me down to simply being naked, accepting, peace and positive. Armored, in conflict judgmental, controlling, eh, not so much. All of this and it can hinge so much on the simple act of disrobing.

Harrassment:
My nude body ain't no harassment. It is what it is. If it can't be seen as simply that, then it is the perception of someone else. It is their problem, their hangup, and they are making imposition on me. Yeh Bob, that kind of thing insults me and ticks me off. too. Keep your judgmental hands off of my body. I have a right to experience life and my humanity as it is.
Jbee
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 07:33:09 PM by jbeegoode »
Barefoot all over, all over.

Safebare

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2018, 08:19:51 PM »
I just gotta say that I am thoroughly enjoying the conversation, JBEE, Bob & BT. It shows the diversity and inclusion in this group. Keep it up!

Safebare

nuduke

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2018, 03:01:29 PM »

The comments about appropriate beach behaviour and public behaviour got me thinking a bit (...unusual I know but there it is! :) )


Why do some people object to heterosexuals or gays (or other proclivities) having sex in full view?  The only answer that I can philosophise is that the sex act, which, in the west is nowadays associated mostly with privacy, conjures up thoughts in some people's mind that they would rather not deal with or are frightened of.  If you look at people having sex on a beach it conjures up a range of impressions - I will deal with 3
1) It's erotic - maybe some people are likely not to want to be erotically stimulated at that particular moment and therefore prefer an environment that doesn't include those sights:  To them I say..don't look and/or control yourself.  Whether you are stimulated by a sight is surely under some level of your control
2) It brings other prejudices and conditioning to the fore - this is an obvious one - all the people that think sexuality is evil and sinful, all those that censure everything that doesn't involve walking down the street fully clothed and those that have a spiritual or religious objection.  In this case, one might have sympathy for those poor automata that can't think rationally and inclusively and have some empathy for having certain behaviours thrust in their faces against their choice and/or expectation. However, to them I say ...grow up and think outside the shackles of your belief system - look outwards, look about and find why others don't always think as you do.
3) It affects the kids.  We've had that conversation many times.  It doesn't.  People are weak and are too easily traumatised by seeing things that run counter to their prejudices.  To them I say...learn from what you experience.  Use that to make choices and support your rational, well thought-through preferences.  And if you haven't thought them through....use the experience to start now.


To all I would say, what harm if it does no harm?  Provided no physical harm comes, be strong about the mental dangers (which are internal to you) and confront them and think it through.  To those having the sex on the beach I say... you lucky bastards!  No, No - I say, be mindful of your fellow man and consider their sensitivities as you challenge them.  Do no harm and spread good and virtue.


I'd love to be on a beach where anything goes and stupid inhibitions are doffed with the clothing.  Provided I am not harmed, e.g. by predatory sex perverts, what pleasure to live amongst others in peace and tolerance?  By the way, I have never been exposed to predatory sexual behaviour (I don't think?) so I don't necessarily have the experience to speak with confidence but I have been more than once been propositioned by those of alternative sexual preferences to mine and that's no problem to have that conversation and discussion provided both parties accept the preferences and sensibilities of each other and move on accordingly.  One would hope that those of a more predatory proclivity would respond similarly to a polite rebuff. 


There are, of course, those who cannot respond with other than violence and/or irrational, invasive sating of their needs (rape).  This is a big part of what people are afraid of on a mixed use beach, I would contend, that maked them want to ban all sorts of behaviour not considered 'proper'.  But the action of criminal perverts is no different from being robbed, mugged, attacked, burgled or any other form of harm that bad people perpetrate so can't really be included in the argument here (but such harming behaviour does need censure/prevention).  In the beach example, however, one must assess the risk of something like that happening (hopefully vanishingly low) to assess whether prevention is needed of anyone doing anything enjoyable but harmless. 


In my world, to have and cultivate an open mind is one of the cardinal virtues.  To be clear and true to yourself about your own feelings, views and sensibilities such that you can react rationally in all situations, is another.


Shakesperare as ever had it right (Hamlet A1 sc3)
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This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man


John

Greenbare Woods

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Re: Beach etiquette (UK)
« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2018, 03:59:53 PM »
Why do some people object to heterosexuals or gays (or other proclivities) having sex in full view?  The only answer that I can philosophise is that the sex act, which, in the west is nowadays associated mostly with privacy, conjures up thoughts in some people's mind that they would rather not deal with or are frightened of. 
John

In my experience the biological mating of male and female that creates life is always beautiful to watch.  Over my many years I have happened upon such activities occasionally and stayed to enjoy their pleasure.   I also believe that the first occupation of children is to learn about all the behaviors they will need to become normal functional adults, and passively learning about how to create our grandchildren is important education.  The joy of creation is beneficial to others of all ages.

That is not to say that every other possible kind of ugly or deviant human behavior is also acceptable or educational.  Does it teach children how to become functional productive parents who will some day raise our grandchildren?   Or does it teach ugly emotional excess gone wrong? 

As for Shakespeare, just because some disturbed or psycho person is being "true" to himself doesn't mean that disturbed behavior is acceptable in a public place without limits.  Some of it is just filthy and disgusting.  Was "Jack the Ripper" being true to himself? 

Your mileage may vary. 

Bob

 
Human bodies are natural, comfortable, and green.
To see more of Bob you can view his personal photo page
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