Being seen while getting mail.

[Peter S]

JBee, your question about Steve Gough is highly pertinent. It highlights the perversity of the Anti-Social Behaviour Order (ASBO) system, whereby legal activities can be criminalised almost on the whim of some busybody. When the scheme was introduced it was widely welcomed because it was aimed at unruly types making a nuisance of themselves on the streets of law-abiding, peaceful neighbourhoods. But mixed with the Law of Unintended Consequences it has become a suppressor of freedoms through misuse. SG could legally be naked, but in doing so would break the terms of his ASBO and thereby incur punishment for being naked.

[BlueTrain]

Concerning the young man seen nude, you first need to visualize the circumstances. The house is on a plain, flat lot with no bushes or trees, sitting all of about thirty feet from the sidewalk. As for moving around, it takes exactly the same time to walk from one end of the house to the other inside or out. Aside from any details quoted in the articles, I don't know anything else about it and I don't know if those details are even accurate. It all happened while I was at work and as far as I know, the police asked no questions of neighbors. It was a rental property at the time. There was no smear campaign and I don't think there had been any other incidents.

I find no fault with the police. They were just acting upon a complaint. Generally speaking, I don't believe the police anywhere abuse their powers unless you aren't white, don't live on the wrong side of the tracks or you're not from around there. But conditions and circumstances vary widely. Just read the newspapers and understand. Life is not fair.

Although it would be nice to have the law on your side, it would be even better to have your neighbors on your side. You don't get to choose your parents and you usually don't get to choose your neighbors, either. Some do their best to do so, of course. You may have neighbors who do things you'd really wish they wouldn't do, too. You either tolerate it or call the police. The law is usually so broad and vague that if there are enough complaints, the police will do something. They rarely (in your neighborhood, that is) do things on their own. It starts with someone actually calling the police. These days, they (the complainant) may even take pictures, since everyone be me has a smartphone. It is a community and everyone should behave as if they have neighbors. You wouldn't like it any other way.

I hope this post is not too far off the topic.

[jbeegoode]

We incorporated the Town of Tortolita and we had political battles to keep the surrounding towns and distant Tucson from killing our democratically created town. We often were getting interviewed by the local media. They would come out and get a story, omit things so as to misquote, show themselves to sometimes be completely ignorant of the issue, but get a story, or make a story, anyway. We all realized quickly that great care needed to be taken with these people and speak carefully.

Here, we have media reporting court evidence and neighbors reporting the opposite. As an outsider, one has to wonder who's record is reliable. Are the police abusing power, or are they "Officer Opy" investigating "the crime of the century?"

You wrote, "It is a community and everyone should behave as if they have neighbors. You wouldn't like it any other way." There is a lot to be said in those two sentences about community. There are multitudes definitions, unspoken rules of order, law, etc. defining community standards and individual rights. There are the who's, the how's, change and nobodies business but my own, on and on.

So, is a dress code the same as keeping your front yard attractive?
Jbee

 

[BlueTrain]

Not exactly but how people keep the neighborhood affects property values. What your neighbors are like affects your life. If someone plays loud music at midnight, I guess you don't have to listen, though. It's none of your business, after all.

[rw]

I find your situation fascinating as heck. ... I want to hear how this goes.

So today I went walking further afield.  16km distance.  About 3 and a bit hours walking.  Somewhere between 14-15km spent unclothed.  I covered up going past a country pub which had a mass of delivery trucks out the front, covered up going past a school, and then for a section of main road (about 1km or so) before getting back onto open fields. The rest of the time, all clothing was stuffed into my backpack.

I made a conscious decision not to cover up for any adults on the track.  Reaction was mostly okay.  The first couple I walked past moved off the track but did call out good morning as I went past.  When I looked back the woman was taking my photo (wonder where that will end up).  A (female) jogger went past shortly after with an unimpressed look on her face, and resolutely stared forward.  After that, I encountered a few men who just said hello and didn't show any other reaction.  Then a female dog walker who apologised when her dog came running up to me, but apart from that didn't seem bothered in the slightest. In fact, she commented on the weather and pointed out the right direction to go on the track.  Much later on I heard children's voices in the distance, and strategically placed my backpack in front of me when a pair of mothers, with toddlers in tow, went past.
About the only negative reaction (apart from the female jogger), was an older man who veered off the track when he saw me and shot off in another direction.  Which I thought was the most odd of all.

Overall a pretty stress free experience.  (Although on the second hill climb I realised exactly how unfit I've become...) 

[jbeegoode]

rw! Oh, to know that you had to be a topic of conversation and how those people and their friends responded in thought and conversation. Hopefully, everyone understood that the matter was not at all harmful, nor worth concern.

It sounds like you are just enjoying yourself, your naturism free of hassles, because you avoided a couple of situations that were populated with people that might have that potential, instead of firmly pushing on their sense of boundary. I suppose that is the appeal of naturism, no worries.
Jbee

[jbeegoode]

Not exactly but how people keep the neighborhood affects property values. What your neighbors are like affects your life. If someone plays loud music at midnight, I guess you don't have to listen, though. It's none of your business, after all.

That's my point. Where do these boundaries 'lie." It is not cut and dry, black and white. Loud music and disruptive timing can't be compared with mowing the lawn without clothing.

When a property is not kept up, it does affect property values around there. There are usually some legal expectations put into place beforehand. On the other hand, you can't be calling the neighborhood association or the police on someone and expect harmony in that community.

I've had a neighbors next door, first one who declared war on the the others, constantly doing battle, harassing the others, games, stealing from us. We had a party to celebrate when these dysfunctional nut jobs when they lost their home and moved away.

Then, there are these new ones. The sound system outside is complained about when it is heard more than a quarter mile away. I'm constantly hearing a bass drone inside my house with two and a half thick walls. He refused a petitioned complaint and then was angry when the police were called at the last resort. This same guy's wife is concerned that her kids might see one of us minding our own business in the nude on our own property. Then, there are people using these boundary issues as tools to feel power and feel good, to control, just to control and forcefully define the world.

Where is the line drawn? Does a monetary encumbrance justify? Does a perceived norm require a dress code? Will one be required a shinny new prosperous looking car in the drive?  Is a man's home his castle, or an island?

I think that requiring people to dress in a certain way is outrageous, especially when it is brought to the force of law, or interpretations of it. Nudity is just a form of dress. It is not sexual except for someone else interpretation. It is causal dress. It is like wearing a t-shirt. It is not even like wearing an unusual hairstyle, or clothing, punk, hippie, or anything that doesn't conform. It is natural and a simple casual choice and needs to be seen as just that. It is not a property value issue. Over controlling neighbors and harassment is a property value issue.
Jbee

[BlueTrain]

I could say something but I'm learning to keep my opinions to myself.

[nuduke]

Secret naturism is a necessary part of free range naturism.

Well said, JBee, although perhaps necessary is a bit strong.  Perhaps say - Secret Naturism frequently needed to achieve FRN.

I think Bob's remarks ring clear too:

I'll be secret when I have to be, but I prefer the freedom of being free range and being seen by occasional other people. 

We have a strict rule at our house, "Don't get arrested."   Pretty much anything else is acceptable as long as it doesn't hurt someone.

In other words, adapt as needed to gain what freedom to roam that is available.  Quite so.

John

[jbeegoode]

I could say something but I'm learning to keep my opinions to myself.

Passive aggressive attack. I'm being messed with.

[BlueTrain]

Okay, here goes with another attack on your sensibilities. I don't care for the use of the word secret. It implies that you're doing something that would embarrass your or bring shame on you. Better words would be discreet or private. Don't take things so personally. You need to work on your tolerance. There are a few people who enjoy outdoor nudity who see things a little differently. Our experiences have differed.

Those are just opinions, not a fact I can back up with any statistics. As such, they have no value.

[jbeegoode]

Interesting fun semantic point. I don't recall that anyone has considered that. Lookee, or someone else came up with the title, "The Secret NAturist Society". It connotes mystery, underground, secret societies of old, which is more attractive than
The Discreet NAturist Society" or The Private Naturist Society."   

I guess that it is one of those things that got used so much in the context that it lost some meaning. See fresh persective is good.

However,"Those are just opinions, not a fact I can back up with any statistics. As such, they have no value." means that I am being messed with again.
Jbee

 

[ric]

jb i dont know or care why youve got a strop on with bluetrain but some of your recent posts are in my opinion a bit off.   it does look as if youre  hell bent on trying to drive the bloke off the forum , presumably for daring to post an opinion that differs to yours.

[jbeegoode]

If you've gone back and read as I suggested and still see it that way, I don't know how else to explain. No, I'm not hell bent on driving him off of the site. He is fresh juice, he is welcomed and it doesn't feel that that is my place. It is not about his opinion differing from mine. It is about being messed with and the way that these opinions are being passed off. I'm also disagreeing with false logic, when it happens. 

The "messed with", I use his term, part was diving me off of the site. My opinion was being squelched, in an off hand, inconsiderate and systematic  manner. It was either I leave, or I call him out, hoping for change. I hope that he understands what his behaviors do.

I suppose that I must resolve to make the effort to express disagreement with his opinions, which often come across as contrarian and even anti-naturist and cavalier. But that's okay. I can't always be correct, I've been even suspicious about where he is coming from. He seems to be coming from an insulated bubble sometimes, but that's okay, too.

Obviously, my response might be better expressed, or you wouldn't think that I'm attempting to drive him off. I do my best.

Bluetrain, I hope that if you read this that you feel addressed, too. I must apologize for speaking about you, rather than to you. I hope that these two sentences fix that omission.
Jbee

 

[BlueTrain]

Oh, I think I'm the one who owes you an apology. I have been guilty of one thing that I cautioned about somewhere here, which is in being indiscreet. I also apologize to anyone else who thinks I rippled the waters too much. I'm really not trying to mess with you.

This is the only forum with a subject matter that includes nude hiking, although there is no section devoted to it. As you all probably know, there used to be a forum just about nude hiking but it went defunct because, I suppose, the owner abandoned it for one reason or another. I can only imagine the effort it takes to get a lively forum up and running and to have a lot of participants, as this one seems to. Before that, there were a couple of Yahoo Groups devoted to the subject. But Yahoo Groups work very poorly.

I had some good, long-term exchanges with a couple of members from one group or another. One of them lived in Salt Lake City and was a very interesting character. The other I discovered worked around the corner from where I also work in Northern Virginia, out near Dulles Airport, and we managed to have lunch together one day. An actual face-to-face conversation is nothing like making posts on a forum. That was years ago.

Well, time passes. I don't get out as much as I used to and consequently, I don't have many new, much less exciting, stories to relate here, although I did tell of my visit back home when the river was flooding. It isn't really because I don't go hiking so much as not driving a long distance to go hiking that makes the difference. I try to get out every day or two, although the temperatures have been high and the humidity even higher lately. My tramp mostly through the woods is about two miles round trip, with about 3/4 of that in thick woods in a suburban neighborhood. That satisfies my urge to put one foot in front of the other, if nothing else. I find myself making excuses for not going other places for hiking, places where I can hike nude. All I can say is, too bad; maybe next week.

I don't know how to explain where I'm coming from. I have visited a club (Pen-Mar Club) but frankly, clubs don't have anything to offer me that I'm interested in. It was still a nice visit but there are no clubs that I know of within a three or four hour drive. When the family owned a beach cottage on the Outer Banks, I usually went down U.S. 460 part of the way and passed right by Whitetail Resort but I never stopped by. My chief interest was always hiking and camping.

I like to use the term "free hiking" for nude hiking and I rather like free range naturism.

I stayed away long enough to cool off, so to say, but there's no other place to go, it seems, at least for the subject matter.