Author Topic: Dispiriting incident with a member here  (Read 731 times)

John P

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Dispiriting incident with a member here
« on: September 19, 2017, 02:58:23 AM »
This relates to an incident that took place a week ago, but I've let it rest for a while. As some people know, I went on the Naked European Walking Tour this year (with a pre-trip trip and a post-trip trip also), and I've been posting my photos from that journey in batches in the Trip Reports section here. The week before last, I reached the point in the travelog where I actually got to the NEWT location in Austria.

Last year there was a thread here where we discussed the topic of pictures stolen from Internet sites, usually to be used on people's blogs or on sites like Tumblr, and I made my opinions (negative!) pretty clear there. Our host Stuart made his own contribution to that conversation, and he agreed with me.
http://freerangenaturism.com/forum/index.php?topic=5.15

So, I posted my first set of pictures from NEWT, and as I did so, it occurred to me that now I was with a mixed group of men and women, my pictures might become more tempting to thieves, because they're basically voyeurs most of the time, primarily interested in pictures of women. So, I added a note about claiming copyright, even though it's not legally necessary (what's yours is yours, and you don't have to tell anyone so). I thought at the time, "Yes, that'll stop them", but at least I did something!

I thought that if (when) my pictures were stolen, they'd end up in some string of Tumblr sites that I'd never hear about, and I wouldn't mind much. What I hadn't expected was that a member here would steal from me for the benefit of his own pathetic blog! But that's what happened, in less than a week. The individual involved was KENSUNWALKER. As is entirely typical, he selected a picture that recognizably had a woman in it, and he gave zero credit to me as photographer, and didn't identify the location or occasion. He also added a title right in the picture, "Freehiking Europe"--to discourage theft, maybe! As far as the lack of information is concerned, that's the way the process has to work, because a thief can't say very much about his merchandise, and certainly won't identify his victim. I posted a fairly caustic response to the picture, and Ken did remove it.

As I said, it's been a week since this occurred and I still don't know what it's reasonable to think about it. My first action was to remove any other pictures that would be tempting to thieves, and in future I'll be selecting pictures to be all male when people are clearly shown. I think this will protect both my friends and myself, because I expect those are the only ones thieves would take, but of course I recognize that with a few days to do their work, Ken and others like him had ample chance to take what they want from the first set. I said in the title that this has been a discouraging experience, and it's put me off sharing photographs on the Internet. But it's probably effective just to say that I'll avoid most pictures of women, and it doesn't distort the overall atmosphere too much, because we guys are usually a pretty large majority anyway (and is that related to the demand for pictures of naked women, one wonders?)

I'd really like to hear what Ken thinks about this incident and how he would explain his policy on obtaining material for his blog. As far as I can tell, it's "I'll take whatever I want from wherever I find it, and I don't care what the owner thinks about it", but maybe he has some other way of describing it. In the message where I asked him to remove the stolen item from his blog, I made sure to include my email address, thinking he might care to apologize, but no such luck. Well, there's the story.


Bob Knows

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Re: Dispiriting incident with a member here
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2017, 02:21:01 PM »
I understand your concern John.  I post quite a bit of stuff on Internet, written and photographic.  I have found my blog articles copied verbatim on other sites.  My pictures have been "shared" also.

Many people get used to sites like Facebook, Twitter, etc., which encourage viewers to "SHARE" content.  Many other sites have a row of "f" "t" and other buttons that "share" the post to Facebook, Twitter, etc.  One effect of that kind of sharing is that many users just assume that whatever is posted anywhere on-line may be "shared" whenever they like.

With my own material, blog and photos, I post it with the intention of generating a wide distribution.  The more people who read and see my material the more successful I have been.  Nothing I produced has ever "gone viral" as they say now, but some of it does get shared sometimes.   

I understand your concern with material containing a copyright notice.  People should see the notice and respect it by not sharing it or "stealing" the material to recopy elsewhere.  I would be more upset if the material showed up on a PAY-TO-VIEW porn site where someone is profiting from my products. My photos aren't very porn oriented so that hasn't been a problem yet.  Simple hiking photos of men or women hiking nude outdoors aren't porn either to that's not likely.

I'm not innocent either.  I click the "share f or t" button sometimes too.  Sometimes I save the image that was posted if I like the picture.  I get to see my saved images next year while the source has moved on long ago.  Saving an image only takes a right click. The whole Internet and web browser software is set up to do exactly that.  When we post our material into that place knowing everyone can "steal" the image with a right click we really need to expect that at least someone will want to copy and save it, if it was a good picture.   

I'm on both sides of this behavior.  I haven't copied any of your NEWT pictures, not the sort of pictures I copy.  I doubt you have copied any of my pictures or writing either.  When I post on Internet I assume it will get copied and shared.  That's the nature of the beast, like that old saw about heat in the kitchen.

Don't let it discourage you from taking pictures. 







   
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 08:33:48 PM by Bob Knows »
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jbeegoode

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Re: Dispiriting incident with a member here
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2017, 07:17:20 PM »
DF and I don't place our nude bodies with faces on the internet easily. There is potential for it being used misrepresenting us. This goes along with people taking photos with and without asking and then posting them. Soon, you will see pictures of more of our faces posted on my website. There will also be photos of our faces without nude bodies attached. It is a pain, but the world that we live in has these potentials.

I agree with Bob,"Don't let it discourage you from taking pictures."
Jbee

   
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Bob Knows

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Re: Dispiriting incident with a member here
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2017, 09:12:46 PM »
There are billions of digital cameras in the world today.  People make something like a billion digital images every day.  People make pictures of everything they find interesting. Their cat. Their kid. Their dinner. And OTHER PEOPLE.  Other people are arguably the most interesting subject of people.

Every time I go naked into the world I expect that someone is going to record a digital image of me naked.  Probably 90% of people who see me are carrying a digital camera.  Many of the cameras have to be within 10 yards to get a clear picture, but pocket camera technology today allows people to get clear images of other people from so far away we don't even know they are watching us. 

Anyone who goes on a public naked adventure such as NEWT has to expect that they will be recorded in a hundred images in every village they pass near or through.  Some people will post the image on social media along with their lunch and their cat.  "Oh look what I saw today, naked people walking through town." 

Another fact of digital life is that pictures of people are more likely to get "stolen" than pictures of someone's lunch or cat.  If we are worried about it we should go hide in our bedroom instead of going naked out into the world.  I'm not worried. I expect to get photographed.  I expect pictures of me to be shared.  I prefer when women share my images rather than gays, but both happen.  I'm not going to stop going naked nor stop posting my own pictures. 

I think we all need to realize that being seen, being photographed, and being shared is part of nude life in the 21st century.  I'm not sorry about that either.  Every nude image shared or seen helps to teach someone that nudity is OK.  Even more educational when its an image of people enjoying ordinary life naked such as my images and the NEWT pictures. 

Don't let the ubiquitous cameras and pictures discourage you from being outside naked.  Humans do not need to hide.  We are all beautiful. 
Human bodies are natural, comfortable, and green.

pjcomp

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Re: Dispiriting incident with a member here
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2017, 11:29:09 PM »
A couple of years ago there was a particularly big outcry when some celebrities had their nude pictures hacked and posted on the internet. One commentator over here was roundly condemned for saying that "if you don't want pictures of you naked appearing on the web, don't take naked pictures of yourself". But realistically he was right; we all know it happens, however much we might prefer that it didn't. To adapt the title of Kevin Costner's movie - If you post it, they will copy it.
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Bob Knows

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Re: Dispiriting incident with a member here
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2017, 12:13:27 AM »
"if you don't want pictures of you naked appearing on the web, don't take naked pictures of yourself".


Yep, that was true when said.  Today someone else is going to take a picture if you are running around naked.  so..

If you don't want pictures of you naked appearing on the web, don't be naked." 

Human bodies are natural, comfortable, and green.

jbeegoode

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Re: Dispiriting incident with a member here
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2017, 01:41:54 AM »
I'd say, don't be publicly naked, if you don't want pictures appearing.

We have a great deal of stealth activities by the nature of circumstance and law. Most of us came here from the "Secret" Naturist Society. Most of what I do, is not seen by anyone. If I am out in public in any dress or not, there is potential for photography.

DF and in are in a movie on youtube during the 2014 Rainbow Gathering throwing snowballs at each other and dancing during the large group celebration. Nobody asked us. We are still anonymous, we are ourselves, most people don't care who it is on a web filled with people. Nobody that we know has said anything, recognizing us. There is an unflattering shot, but we don't really care, otherwise we would complain. Taking pictures without asking is against the Rainbow Rules, most don't like cameras at all. It ain't rainbow, but there we are dancing naked on youtube.  The problem...vanity.
Jbee
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JOhnGw

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Re: Dispiriting incident with a member here
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2017, 08:59:13 AM »
If I were on a video dancing naked it would be very embarassing for me.
For the dancing, not the nudity.
JOhn

Do not do unto others as you would that they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same.
George Bernard Shaw, Maxims for Revolutionaries

ric

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Re: Dispiriting incident with a member here
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2017, 10:38:43 AM »
to me theres two issues here

the first is simply once youve posted an image theres nothing to stop it being shared or copied and reposted.
thats something we all get on with ... right from the days you made a paper print and gave it to somebody else.... they could then pass it on or post it on a lamppost or whatever.

the second issue is to me of more concern , its the theft of material that is then used as content in a website or blog ... without the permission of the copyright holder or any attempt to acknowledge the authorship of the material.   maybe done for material gain or just to bolster an ego.

Karla

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Re: Dispiriting incident with a member here
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2017, 12:04:42 PM »
If people want it then we can have a private section of the forum which you can only access after a certain number of posts. There can be strict rules about not stealing the pictures and if anyone does then we can delete their account.

nuduke

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Re: Dispiriting incident with a member here
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2017, 09:22:19 PM »

Thanks for that Karla. 


My, perhaps na´ve, assumption is that all of us regulars are solid citizens of good intent and such rules would be the natural law.  I feel for JohnP's disappointment in having his material lifted so maybe that's an argument for Karla's enhanced security suggestion.  If we clamp down on access though, that would tend to discourage new joiners to our happy band.  So maybe openness is a virtue.
I too would like to hear Kensunwalker's side of the matter.   


I also agree with Bob and others that trying to protect your material at any level of security (except not publishing it) is very difficult.  When I was creating a website and project managing the development of other ones I learned that sites with real need to protect copyright - such as the photo sales websites that watermark their images such as Getty images, Shutterstock and the like - have ways of detecting if you have stolen and used a photo rather than paying for it.  Don't know how they do that, but it is possible.  For the rest of us we just have to put up with the risk of our photos being copied and maybe used badly, I'm afraid. More security on this forum may well protect from outside infringement but it doesn't stop an insider from infringing the rule such as is parallel to this issue.  I haven't worked out if I'm for or against tightened security at the moment but welcome others to post their views. 


In 10 years of forum posts, there hasn't been an infringement that I have been aware of.  So does this one event call for a review of privacy?  Similarly, Bobs experience of having material purloined hasn't done him harm other than the understandable disappointment at the theft rather than being asked for permission to republish.  We had a 'naughty' member with a bit of a grudge on TSNS many years ago, did we not (Corbie)?  But this didn't have any real bad side effects. So one might conclude the chances of a problem arising are small and worth risking to avoid unnecessary overburden of security measures.  On the other hand there is always collateral risk if anything like this happens - again, Bob made that clear.  Perhaps we should take steps to be more discreet?  As you have probably realised John Ps post and Karla's suggestion are circulating in my brain with no obvious conclusion.  Come on Ken, let's hear your take on the matter!


On a lighter note: I am no whited sepulchre, I have occasionally been known to nick a photo off the internet for an art project, for a presentation or some other need of a photo.  I try to see if they have creative commons licenses (i.e. free to use) but if not, I don't demur to use them. However, I always respect others' material on this site because of confidentiality.  Indeed, what would one need the pics for?  When I go to the great final nudist camp in the sky, I don't want my successors to see hordes of pictures of nude men hiking, on my hard drive! (That is hiking in the countryside rather than on my hard drive!).  But I have to admit one photo I did download from TSNS some years ago was a headshot of Jbee looking directly at the camera with a sunset behind him.  His face was obscured in blackness from the contrast with the bright background.  I think it was at some hot springs.  After years of looking at his superb photos and not seeing his face, rather than his floppy hat and behind, I was curious.  Hmmm, I thought, I wonder if Jbee has treated that photo to hide his identity or whether a bit of photo-shopping might unwittingly reveal what he looks like.  Indeed, a simple manipulation of the brightness and contrast brought his smiling countenance and big moustache into view.  Sorry, Jbee, I never told you about that little infringement. I wonder if anyone else did that?  However, to see the face and the character to be read therein enhanced my perception of his posts ever afterwards.  I didn't keep the photo and never shared it. 


Like JBee and DF and a fair few others, I have always been very wary of showing my face in any pics I post here.  I promised myself that when I retired I would 'come out' and be bold brave and not mind people seeing/knowing I am a naturist - like Ian, JOhngw and others.  Those that don't hide under a bushel don't seem to have suffered in any way for their boldness.  But nevertheless when retirement arrived, there were as many people that might react badly in my life as before.  At least I won't lose any jobs or clients nowadays but socially it could be hard.  So I remain 'faceless'.


Lot to chew on here.


John


 




jbeegoode

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Re: Dispiriting incident with a member here
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2017, 01:25:37 AM »
There is not a problem for people to collect photos for personal use, it is just republishing them. I have a collection of naturist photos of just people having fun naked in different activities that I collected for a decade. Sometimes, I put them on a slide show. With the signs and sayings of naturists mixed in, it is refreshing and informative to guests and newbies. No harm, personal use. I have an old collection of bodypaint photos that I have used as ideas and inspiration for my own body painting. I'm just not profiting, using them as if I took them myself, or misrepresenting them on the internet.

I'm not stealing anything when I personally keep a photo. For example, if I put the stuff on my site without expressed permission, that is a problem.
Jbee

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jbeegoode

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Re: Dispiriting incident with a member here
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2017, 01:41:51 AM »
More thoughts...if someone has a nude photo of me, or DF we should be asked first about someone placing it on the web. It is a matter of privacy, practicality and vanity that we get to choose how we are presented in public pics. For instance, I go to great lengths to portray DF at her flattering best. There are always photos that make her look fat, skinny, weird, stupid expression, goofy that just get dumped and are not representative.

I found a facebook photo published of me that placed me next to a pair of people that I really don't know skinnydipping in a swimming pool at a party. It looked as though we are friends. That concerned me more than that I was obviously naked, blurry under the water. There was once a pic of me with my belly looking huge. I didn't like that one. Nude okay, looking other than healthy, bad. Vanity and a realistic representation seem to be important, clothed or not. That is authentic, too. I'm not a studly ideal, but hey, give me a break!
Jbee
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ric

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Re: Dispiriting incident with a member here
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2017, 10:41:44 AM »
ive always tried to ensure i never post a pic thats got both a recognisable face and full frontal ..... any pictures that show all my bits can be plausibly denied if necessary.

theres pics out there thats obviously undeniable me nude but they dont show my willey and i dont post any where i think my belly looks big either.

weve all got to set our own limits that we and family are happy with , with the certainty that once a pics posted it could end up anywhere.

my wife has a complete total pic ban, clothed or not unless a strictly necessary mugshot  for her business website

John P

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Re: Dispiriting incident with a member here
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2017, 06:25:53 AM »
If people want it then we can have a private section of the forum which you can only access after a certain number of posts. There can be strict rules about not stealing the pictures and if anyone does then we can delete their account.

Thanks for the offer, Karla, but it led to three successive thoughts:

1 What set me off in the first place was Kensunwalker's cynical theft of my picture, and he'd have been qualified under this scheme, so it wouldn't help.
2 On the other hand, it would keep out the casual visitors who've never joined as members here, or who've never participated. So that's good.
3 On the other other hand, I've sent the address of the "Naked European Walking Tour 2017" thread out to friends who aren't members here, and that wouldn't work with the proposed scheme. Yes, they ought to join, but not everyone wants to (very sad).

So I just can't see it being very useful. However, it seems as if some people have a different sense of privacy from me. I'm concerned that there are people out there who get some sort of pride out of assembling collections of other people's material, and I don't want to be the victim of theft for their egos' sake, but I don't much care if I'm personally recognizable in Internet land. It's clear that others have worries about being seen nude--justified or not.

By the way, I don't call it theft if someone copies a picture but then keeps it private. What gets me fuming is when they copy stuff and present it as their own, or at least under their control, with no credit to the person who created it.

It's interesting that some of us occasionally worry about seeming to have a large gut. I'm afraid I do occasionally show one picture taken years ago, where I actually used Photoshop to reduce that particular part! A true naturist would let what shows, show. As the Christians say, we are all sinners.