Author Topic: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?  (Read 8845 times)

jbeegoode

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A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« on: October 13, 2017, 07:23:15 PM »
I'm going to publish this soon over at my blog. I'm thinking that some discussion here first may lead to an enhancement, before that. We have discussed this here and there, it hasn't been its own thread. This draft is drawn from discussion here. You may recognize some lingo, like Bob's description of "species.":

Naking

I made a proposal to DF and presented it much in this way. I have honed this to a broader audience:

We are DF and Jbee. They can be whoever they want to be. They can make their world a more perfect world. They are a bit naturist crusaders. They don’t wear clothing, unless they feel the need. They go everywhere nude whenever that is possible. They dislike wearing clothes when it is warm. We feel free and natural and healthy and wholesome, and more aware, more in the moment, more spiritually free, naked.

We like situations in which we are allowed to be casually nude among friends, like say at that party a while back. We just didn’t get dressed, we partied, we conversed in the kitchen, you sang along in the living room. We dipped in the pool. Another example is a sweat association fundraiser. We don’t know, or really care who comes through the door. We have been at times the only ones, or among the few naked amongst the clothed. We all had our choice. DF and Jbee are like that attitude all of the time. In the structure of their world, they do what they can to live in liberation. Now, they have another barrier to unlearn.

Recently, there was an article about “naking” in The Naturist Society’s “N” magazine. The authors have been hiking naked, much of it on the Appalachian Trail. I’ll quote, “We have seen and met hundreds of people during our naked hikes. A lesson that we learned quickly and has shaped our behavior is this: the way that you behave sets the tone for how others will accept your nudity. It sounds simple and it may even sound a little crazy, but it is true. If you are happy and friendly and appear to have no understanding that being unclothed is NOT the norm, then the people that you encounter will behave that way, too.”
This information clearly backs up the informal anecdotal survey that I have been conducting with naked hikers online for several years now. It seems that over 95% of people on trails will have no objections. Maybe 20% will be confused by the unusual circumstance.

Of the extreme minority, people with children will be more likely to object, believing that they are being protective. They are just ignorant of the verified fact that seeing another of their species nude does no harm to children. That experience, more than likely, is healthy for them.

I’m certain that on city streets, the odds of objection may be greater, if merely by the percentage of sheer numbers. It is endlessly the same, “What about the kids.” There can be an assumption of the law and also some personalities like the cozy comfort of order and conformity. Out on the trail and more remote lands, park rangers generally understand that if anyone is not exposed around trailheads and camping, then there is no pursuit of what is harmless and unenforceable anyway.

Nudity is harmless, healthy, natural, not worth the trouble to call the police, and an even smaller percentage would be willing to testify in court. It’s a waste of resources, and many personally don’t care enough. This is the reality.

If we cover, then we are sending out the wrong message. When we cover, we are victims and we victimize everyone who sees us cover. We must be bold, to do the right thing, to be authentic, to act with integrity and for a higher good. If someone doesn’t like it, it is their wrong and their hang-up and their problem. We don’t make theirs ours. We liberate others by liberating ourselves. Others will see us and learn from us AND apparently, this works.

The choice:

When we meet anyone, we can behave normal, as if we are dressed. We assume that it is okay by others (95% plus of the time it actually is). We show them that it is okay to look, to talk to us, that we like it. When they are so free, it liberates us.
If some guy says something lurid, it is just as though he would do it when DF is dressed in something. So she takes it as a compliment and accepts him as ignorant and crude. Maybe she’ll explain to him, that she is not nude for his benefit, but her own.

If someone complains, we confront them. Everyone will see people with their clothes off in public as no big deal, if we don’t allow them to make a big deal of it. If we don’t act like there is something wrong, or discomforting, they need to get used to the idea. They need to see that there is no harm and that their reactions are all about them.  They need to see that naked people are just nice people without clothes. That seeing another of their own species nude is a natural healthy occurrence. We need them to go home and tell their friends about it.

Others will see us and learn that nothing will happen. Any law enforcement is far away, IF they want to hassle with nothing and find us and prove what happened. They don’t. The incident is over before action can be taken. 97% will have no problem with us.

The three percent that might object are often with their children. So if there are children on the trail, we sit beside the trail covering only our genitals and in Arizona, female nipples by a squat position. What is covered would depend on local law. With this tactic, children and their adults will still see that we are nude and learn that people do like being naked. We will be compliant with the law that way, even IF there would be a complaint. DF could stand behind me and we cover my crotch, IF we are surprised, or with no place to casually sit.

DF and I have been going about this all wrong, much of the time. We started out hiding and became artful about it, where only three percent care and authorities don’t really care. Authorities will react if they perceive that there is a molester, or a sexually aggressive act. We have feared and nothing much has changed in the world, except DF and I have had lots of fun naked, everywhere. Much of the time, we could have been freely nude and spreading a good message and liberating people a few at a time. Most of the time, there has been no risk, but we acted as we have out of our ignorance and fears of boogeymen that weren’t there. We errored on the side of caution.

I have been experimenting with this framework. This last weekend DF came on board. We discussed our feelings about encounters. There is ingrained behavior that needs to be unlearned. There is a reluctance, and cautious concern that is unjustified. It will probably take some practice, but along the way, we will learn about ourselves and other’s conditioned responses.

Last weekend we went into action. Jbee and DF went hiking to be warriors for body liberation. We committed to become more comfortable in our liberation of ourselves and others, to use no cover, just take some sun protection and put it in our trail baggage, when not in use. We made a pact to not cover, or support shaming behaviors. The stories will come. I’ll keep publishing about trips.


A little advice and common sense:


As for others, or those who may be newer to being to some degree, publicly nude, the following may be of value. If you feel a little tingly when being nude in public, then that is okay. It happens.

There is a little bit of exhibitionist in everyone. Exhibitionism isn’t all about sexuality either; it can be about recognition from others for various motives. If you think back and it feels sexy, that’s okay. If you ever feel sexy, that’s okay. You will get over that. It is just like anyone gets over these things in a naturist social nudity club situation. It is also okay to feel sexy, have personal thoughts when in clothing. Thoughts happen. Remember your values. It is not about sex any more than any other activity. The sexual associations with nudity have been enforced in our society all of your life. It is simply wrong and misguided. It will wear off, if you are aware of it, but do not go with any sexual behaviors.

You are learning not to be overwhelmed by your training to be clothing obsessed. You may feel risky, or taking a chance; it is natural to feel that kind of tingle. That is fun, like walking away from clothing and then having no clothing to cover with. It is tingly and it is liberating. Things take some getting used to. Eventually, it will feel more and more normal.

To feel exposed is a common conditioning effect, which gives us a sense of liberation and should be relished and experienced fully. Just as feeling our physical senses by being nude brings us alive, experiencing our emotional senses will also. It will come and go, ebb and flow. Every so often, I get a sense of being exposed and I’ve been without clothing most of the last decade.

Some common sense needs to be applied. It is not wise to be freely nude in a populated area with children around. It is not wise to be freely nude around trailheads. It is not wise to be exposed where policing authorities are readily present, no matter what the local law is, there can be extreme reactions from the unenlightened. A man in Georgia, just last week, made TV news and irresponsible journalistic alarm, because he was walking unclothed on a trail. Police were out looking for him in the 950 acre park. They even got out of their cars and ventured onto the trails for a few hundred feet. It was bad publicity and he could have had an unwanted legal hassle.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 07:26:21 PM by jbeegoode »
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ric

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Re: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2017, 09:44:23 PM »
im convinced that  we need to be more self confdent and seen more often .

i do some garden maintenance locally, for years id been grabbing moments of naked gardening when clients were on holiday , gone shopping , at work or whatever.  about 5 years ago i had one particular client with a large rural garden where i work one day a fortnight most of the year, often with nobody at home, id grab what naked time i could bearing in mind their work scheduals and childrens school timings.  anyway their eldest daughter had learnt to drive so could conceivably arrive unaccompanied at any time i was working there.   i thought it prudent to warn them that i had been naked in their garden for the last 10 years or so and i didnt want the 17 year old having a shock if she caught me .   upshot was as a family they decided they wernt woried about me working naked even if they were present. in the ensuing years ive had quite a few conversations with one or other of the parents {they are both doctors} whilst im naked.  i spent most of thursday this week working there naked.   upshot was i got far more naked time and no worries about being discovered,

this experience encouraged me to mention naturism to 4 other clients with suitable gardens, all retired ladies.   
one usually in the house whilst i was working in the garden was happy provided i kept the shorts on till after shed been out with coffee arround 10 am .. apart from that shed rarely come out the house anyway.

another got talking about a garden club visit to abbey house gardens and her dissapointment that the famous naked gardeners wernt there that day, i mentioned that i often gardened naked in the next door garden when the client wasnt in .  next time next door was  on holiday she climbed on top of her compost heap to peer over the 6 foot fence to "check i wasnt a burgalur".  from then on shed come round to tell me here grass wanted mowing rather than use the phone.   pity theres only a couple of bits of her garden that are private..but i have worked naked in them on rare occasions since,
knowing that neighbours are liable to chat i related the compost heap incident to the widow i was working for at the time, she grumped a bit about providing entertainment for the grumpy neighbour.   the next week  when i started at nine she announced that her daughter thought her having a naked gardener was hilarious and she was off to computer club and wouldnt be back till 12.  11 oclock she appeared in the back garden with a glass of water saying shed come home early cos it was a hot day and she thought i might be thirsty.
from then on i worked naked in her back garden whenever the weather was clement.

another widowed client ive known for best part of 60 years has a large wild garden which i attempt to control occasionally. one hot afternoon several years ago she was worrying id get too hot trimming a broken tree ,  i told her i often worked naked out of sight of the windows and allways heard her gurt dog coming when she came down the garden.... half hour later she snuck up behind me saying it was too hot to let the dog out today.  from then on shed often come and chat whilst i worked naked, shes now 90 plus and house bound but i mow her grasss once a fortnight, nude if its warm enough.

ive definately got more quality nude time in clients by being upfront about it, the elderly ladies have definatly engineered encounters with their elusive naked gardener which has led to naked gardening becoming the norm.

as ive become a more experienced garden naturist ive done less and less naked walking but when i do ive  definatly changed from paranoid secrecy to why bother to hide.

beach walking in fuerteventura and spain where naked walkers mingle with clothed beach users has reinforced this change in attitude.

Greenbare Woods

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Re: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2017, 03:29:53 AM »
Recently, there was an article about “naking” in The Naturist Society’s “N” magazine. The authors have been hiking naked, much of it on the Appalachian Trail. I’ll quote, “We have seen and met hundreds of people during our naked hikes. A lesson that we learned quickly and has shaped our behavior is this: the way that you behave sets the tone for how others will accept your nudity. It sounds simple and it may even sound a little crazy, but it is true. If you are happy and friendly and appear to have no understanding that being unclothed is NOT the norm, then the people that you encounter will behave that way, too.”

That's pretty much the same as I have said numerous times here and on other forums.  It has been my experience that acting as if nude is the normal way of hiking will usually be accepted.  Wanting to cover or hide admits doing wrong and gives the other person reason to object.



Quote
I have been experimenting with this framework. This last weekend DF came on board. We discussed our feelings about encounters. There is ingrained behavior that needs to be unlearned. There is a reluctance, and cautious concern that is unjustified. It will probably take some practice, but along the way, we will learn about ourselves and other’s conditioned responses.

It does take practice.  It also takes having a plan ahead of time.  If we don't have a plan the childhood panic mode will rule.  Glad you and DF are going out naked and happy.

Bob
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To see more of Bob you can view his personal photo page
http://www.photos.bradkemp.com/greenbare.html

jbeegoode

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Re: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2017, 06:23:46 AM »
Bob, when you say "It does take practice." Could you elaborate, or suggest any mindset activities, or anecdotal practice learning experiences, potential follies.

For instance we were discussing doing this and where. Some more remote less frequented trails might be easier, but may be too easy, or not enough practice. On the other hand, we discussed Marshall Gulch Trail a place where on some days, sometimes, you will see someone at least every five minutes, or less. She said, "Wow, I don't know about that, yet." "Yea," I thought it might be like walking around nude in public down the street, rather than an unencumbered by hangups naturist experience, which is the ultimate goal. But then again, maybe that is the way to immerse, face the demons, get used to the way of being. After all, 95% plus will respond okay, the reluctance is our illusion, or conditioning. It won’t be that bad as anxiety would dream. So, far it is pretty comfortable. I thought of the Marshall Gulch trail which leads to one which is a better experience without so many people. It is more of a bridge hassle, used to get to the remote stuff. We have hiked down MG TR. later in the day encountering few, it is beautiful. To jump in or take time?

AS I debate whether to jump in at a busier trail, which would be one goal of the conditioning. I'm asking because you have had probably the most experience of this more blatant behavior as anybody here and may have some insights.

We got psyched up the last trip, discussing the issue on the way down there and we were ready for anybody. More of that, "okay, we're doing this", committed kind of attitudinal prearranging, making a pact, would be good. We don't want to scare ourselves. The guidance of the moment, I suppose will be there, but breaking through comfort zones into reality needs to be tackled. Stuffing away coverings, leaving them behind helps, or does it make the potential to panic?

The great weather is going to fade away. I want to just do it, get it done, while the best opportunities are out there. Whaddaya got for us naked sage?
Jbee

« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 06:27:15 AM by jbeegoode »
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Greenbare Woods

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Re: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2017, 10:58:26 AM »
For instance we were discussing doing this and where. Some more remote less frequented trails might be easier, but may be too easy, or not enough practice. On the other hand, we discussed Marshall Gulch Trail a place where on some days, sometimes, you will see someone at least every five minutes, or less. She said, "Wow, I don't know about that, yet." "Yea," I thought it might be like walking around nude in public down the street, rather than an unencumbered by hangups naturist experience, which is the ultimate goal. But then again, maybe that is the way to immerse, face the demons, get used to the way of being. After all, 95% plus will respond okay, the reluctance is our illusion, or conditioning

Jbee

Perhaps the more remote trails with fewer encounters and probably not children would be good.  I began hiking to hot springs in NM where people expected to see naked people in the springs, but not on the trails.  I branched out from there.  It's OK to be seen naked and human.  Some people you pass will envy your courage. 

Bob
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To see more of Bob you can view his personal photo page
http://www.photos.bradkemp.com/greenbare.html

JOhnGw

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Re: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2017, 07:08:19 PM »
The only comment I would make is that such evidence as does exist indicates that being exposed to non-erotic nudity tends to be beneficial to children.
JOhn

Do not do unto others as you would that they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same.
George Bernard Shaw, Maxims for Revolutionaries

dbwvogel

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Re: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2017, 06:08:12 AM »
I have little to add other than I am in agreement, that dealing with the 5% who are bothered is worth the opportunity to share the goodness of FR with others.

While hiking with my wife, I keep my shorts handy, and always cover - although I haven't always pulled the shorts on. She is not comfortable with people being confronted with my nakedness, and so I yield to her concern. But I have some other acquaintances who have hiked nude with me, and I find there is a slightly different response; if textile hikers come upon us, we simply greet them normally, and haven't had any negative reaction - but too few experiences to make a statistical argument. However, when we have spotted people before they see us, we have covered - and then asked ourselves later why we did so! I guess, given the opportunity, the "childhood panic" mode kicks in. I am interested to follow your experiences; my freehiking is about done for the season.

I think if I can make it through a number of confrontations without my wife, I'll be more confident in convincing her it will be okay for me to remain true to myself when back on the trail with her again (once her broken ankle is strong again).
- David

jbeegoode

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Re: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2017, 07:03:55 AM »
I have little to add other than I am in agreement, that dealing with the 5% who are bothered is worth the opportunity to share the goodness of FR with others.

While hiking with my wife, I keep my shorts handy, and always cover - although I haven't always pulled the shorts on. She is not comfortable with people being confronted with my nakedness, and so I yield to her concern. But I have some other acquaintances who have hiked nude with me, and I find there is a slightly different response; if textile hikers come upon us, we simply greet them normally, and haven't had any negative reaction - but too few experiences to make a statistical argument. However, when we have spotted people before they see us, we have covered - and then asked ourselves later why we did so! I guess, given the opportunity, the "childhood panic" mode kicks in. I am interested to follow your experiences; my freehiking is about done for the season.

I think if I can make it through a number of confrontations without my wife, I'll be more confident in convincing her it will be okay for me to remain true to myself when back on the trail with her again (once her broken ankle is strong again).
With DF, I used the article stating hundreds of encounters were all okay with the good attitude. Then, my online polling. Then, our experience at Redington where it is expected. I don't know if that was the convincing thing, or most convincing, but it was enough without our own experience. I told her about being truly liberated, when we get over our knee jerk reactions and liberate both ourselves and others, from bonds. She still has a little of that little girl that says to her, "Good girls don't do that." She wants to grow up and out of that. she also has a revolutionary inside and sense of oppression to add to her bravery. Just a suggestion, that might help you. I'll be getting over these bumps easier, if I'm coupled with a female instead of me, an alone male.
Jbee
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Patrick1951

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Re: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2017, 09:32:47 AM »
I haven't any recent experience of hiking or other outdoor pursuits due to illnesses and mobility problems. However we have many years of home naturism/family naturism experiences to add here. We live around 90% of our time naked and our callers/visitors over the years have shown every possible reaction, but after the initial 'shock' I  think most people very easily accept our nudity. A few have said they too will 'explore the notion' of daily home naturism, after conversations with us.

ric

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Re: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2017, 05:58:16 PM »
some 3 years or so ago we had a week in menorca, several mornings i left the wife reading by the pool whilst i went for a walk on the footpath that circumvents the island, basically pick a section walk an hour out and return.  i made the concious decision to remove shorts once away from civilisation and not to cover up for  anyone i met  .  one morning i met no body , others just an odd one or two and one morning a group of horse riders.   i got one iffy look from a teenage male on a mountain bike but otherwise  just the normal greetings same as if i was clothed...

nuduke

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Re: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2017, 12:53:18 AM »

OK, 2 things Jbee


1) Who is your blog aimed at?  Whilst it is clear to us what your intentions are and the high minded motives that these paragraphs illustrate, it's publication belies the intention to militate towards the encouragement of conflict in order to further the cause of naturist emancipation.  The blog post might well be putting down evidence of your intention which might well be nourishing food for a prosecuting attorney to make ground beef of you both. 
2) A campaign of courting encounters in public places worries me.  However tolerant a majority may be, being blatant about being naked in broadly textile areas will increase the chances that you will meet one of the few percent of objectors that is prepared to involve the law (either federal or of the jungle).


Thus, like Bob, I would also advise caution and festina lente - hasten slowly and start with places where you are unlikely to have encounters and if there are any accidental meetings that these might be with open minded people who would take and spread your word further among the heathen textile masses.  Equally is the blog manifesto really wise?  Perhaps you might start with musings and argument as to the merits of allowing freehiking in open country and unpopulated (other by than fellow hikers and outdoor enthusiasts) rural environments. 


Whether you win or lose, court cases can shatter lives and leave even the victor vanquished by costs and with high minded right principles mortally injured if caught in the foul slavering jaws of legal process that usually has nothing to do with right or justice.  Would you risk compromising your current wide ranging naturist freedom, albeit somewhat restricted by lack of public emancipation?


Much as it pains me to make a comparison with Steve Gough, if one man takes on the world, the probability of success is slight and the true and present danger of opression and being swallowed by the prevailing hegemony is far greater.


I wouldn't question your high minded intentions.  I would support them.  But I would preach, as our long lost colleague Larry would have, that incrementalism might be a better strategy.  Start small and softly, test the water cautiously and take every opportunity to gain allies and a like minded following along the way before you (literally) stick your necks out.


John




eyesup

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Re: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 08:36:18 PM »
Jbee,

I understand your intent and agree with most of what you say, although there is nothing there about the solitary hiker. It always seems to be the single naked hiker that is viewed with suspicion. The article about the hiker in Georgia being a good example.

Duane

jbeegoode

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Re: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2017, 07:39:15 AM »
Thank-you for your input and concern for us, Nuduke.

If we are encountered by hostile textiles, a slim chance of that, depending where we are hiking, camping, I then mentioned conflict. When someone gets aggressive, or rude, then one must be firm. They need to be told that they are a minority. They need to be nice to others. The conflict doesn’t start with us, but the conflict has to be dealt with. We can’t be free if we let ourselves be afraid of one bully that very likely won’t exist. There is nothing wrong or dangerous. They can have no effect, if we are all out away from the trailhead and we leave them, or cover up for them. What we speak to them is truth, which isn’t against any law.

The local forest service heads realize that there is nude activity on public lands. We were told to just stay away from campsites and trailheads while nude. They don’t have a problem with it. They would have to be pushed pretty hard. The police will not go that far off of the road.

We are not walking the same trails every day. Most trails are not just in and out, IF an authority might take a complaint. We are not breaking any laws. I should stress these points in the article. The odds of someone making trouble for us is close to nil, if we are not flagrantly nude with genitals exposed in heavily trafficked public areas. In more public areas, then precautions that we have honed over years must be employed.

Now, the posting in the blog with our faces could be used to build a case, as you are concerned.  But there needs to be a prosecutor willing to attempt to stretch the law for a minor issue. More likely someone would try to take a picture of us as evidence, then they must attach our faces to our identity. That won’t happen in a city of more than a million people. They have to find our little blog in the first place. There is a small readership placed all over the world. We are hardly famous. There are just a few locals and they are supportive of us. Giving out pamphlets directing a hostile to the site, would be probably the only way that the site would be involved, if we even encounter one of these obsessive prudes.  They have to put two and two together. They have to prove intent to alarm someone. The have to prove that the person objecting is reasonable and alarmed. Justice is as you say the same here, but the case load is an even greater factor. After all, I’m not advocating a Steve Gough, walk down the street next to a school with news reporters around. I’m talking naturism in the backwoods, encountering a handful of people who are reasonable people. The odds and risk are miniscule that we will have anything but fun and acceptance.

The blog is to encourage people, it states so clearly. There has never been a law broken. It has discouraged people to not break laws from the get go.

Any blog post will state exactly what happened. We encountered people on the trail smiled and greeted them. They responded in kind. Over and over again, there has been acceptance by reasonable smiling friendly people. We are being liberated from our irrational hangups.
Jbee

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jbeegoode

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Re: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2017, 07:45:01 AM »
My experiences so far have been just fine. In most I was separated from my hiking partner, and was a lone guy on the trail at the time. Twice together, she was dressed and I wasn't, and all six people had conversations with us, ignoring my obvious nudity. It IS rare to be frowned upon by all indicators. So far, good. Just like where it is expected like Redington Pass.
Jbee
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Greenbare Woods

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Re: A more naked and bold strategy:What do you think?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2017, 11:12:23 PM »
Twice together, she was dressed and I wasn't, and all six people had conversations with us, ignoring my obvious nudity. It IS rare to be frowned upon by all indicators. So far, good. Just like where it is expected like Redington Pass.
Jbee[/quot]

Glad you've been having positive encounters.  Most people enjoy meeting naked hikers.

Bob
Human bodies are natural, comfortable, and green.
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http://www.photos.bradkemp.com/greenbare.html