New Brit Clarifictaion of Nudity Law

[jbeegoode]

I'm thinking that this news might need its own place. It is important change laden stuff.

This creates a whole new world of possibilities. This has been a goal, now it is in place, where do things go now? For now, BN is promoting cautious considerate behaviors. We don't want to see a backlash because somebody decided to get in someones face. There will be a reluctance for people to make use of their new freedom in the constraints of the past attitudes and social ramifications.

How could this affect cultural issues? What if it affected fashion? How can fashion make a buck with this? Will they start a trend of more exposed fashion? More comfortable, liberated clothing like some kind of new wave? Would this make news like a mini skirt, or a topfree bathing suits on beaches? Would it catch on? I'm ready for another British invasion, if such thing creates a culture around the fashion, like it has in the past. And can music follow and express this? Will it be a fashion thing based on a non-fashion thing like free to show and be who we are. Will there be a sexual link, making trouble for us? It is up to youth, avante guard to be more radical and then affect the rest as a trend like it has happened in the past. A shot in the arm of a new Carnaby Street? We shall see.
Jbee

[jbeegoode]

When people hear that casual nudity is legal, then they will use it. Do you think that conservatives who obey and respect laws, will go with it because the law is always correct? They trust the law. They won't complain? They need to feel that they are a minority of opinion, that times have indeed changed.

By next summer, I'd bet that there will be fashion latching on to this. Something like plastic see through clothing, or very short tunics, more exposed flesh places, or more comfortable options. But will it promote body style acceptance? Will it create a more casual view of nudity, the attitude of it being okay, "It's just a body."

Wet and cold may be the perfect deterrent for street nudity, but people are indoors in artificial environments.

Just some random thoughts out of me.
Jbee

[Greenbare Woods]

If people don't need to keep as much of our money to buy clothes, the governments will raise taxes to capture the extra.

On the other hand, governments won't be able to tax clothing sales or merchants. 

Not sure which will bring the most money into government taxes.  We will need more data.

[BlueTrain]

I don't know about you but our biggest single expense is real estate tax. What we spend on clothing is negligible. Always has been. Even when I was working and commuting 40 miles a day round trip, what we spent on gasoline wasn't that much, typically less than $25 a week. I used to buy gas once a week; now I fill it up once a month. But as they say, your mileage may vary.

[Greenbare Woods]

I don't know about you but our biggest single expense is real estate tax. What we spend on clothing is negligible. Always has been. Even when I was working and commuting 40 miles a day round trip, what we spent on gasoline wasn't that much, typically less than $25 a week. I used to buy gas once a week; now I fill it up once a month. But as they say, your mileage may vary.

Probably most nudists don't spend much on clothes.   But shopping malls have been BIG BUSINESS in the US for a long time, and most of their sales are clothes. Sears, Penney's, Macys, Target, Big-5, Gap, and many more big stores are primary clothing outlets.    Giving people permission to avoid buying their products would be a big hit in retail SALES TAX in addition to other taxes on the stores and producers.  Government lives on tax.  Their laws are intended to feed their tax collections.   Even without corporations bribing legislators, their tax collections will suffer from personal freedom. 

[John P]

Here in Massachusetts we don't pay sales tax on clothing. So does your theory apply here, Bob?

[jbeegoode]

I'm REAL interested in how this plays out. There is much to be learned. It is nearly an experiment. I'd like it go well over there as BN is hoping. It would be great argument with the law makers and law supporters to show that , "See, they did it over there and the country didn't crumble. All of your fears are just baseless fears."

For it to get out of hand, or even just usage, the weather would have to change. I'd figure public nudity might erupt indoors in disco bars as a fad. How often does it get attractive to get naked without chills? It used to rain 300 days a year when I lived in Paris. Always a drizzle, fur lined raincoat. The isles as I remember are even colder and even more rain and fog.

Bob, I don't see clothing obsession going away socially anytime soon. It runs too deep, but acceptance, more body comfort, more body acceptance, realizing that it isn't such a big deal to be seen or to see and occasional nudity for most might be more realistic. I don't think that revenues will drop much in Great Britain. When women burnt their bras, the bra fashion industry took a hit and then adapted, until they could prey on women's insecurities again and get the employers on board. When makeup got uncool, they came out with the no makeup makeup.

I think that they will exploit it instead. In the meantime, everyone sees that the lack of need for anti-nudity law.
Jbee   

[ric]

a few random musings from the british isles

in sw england,  somerset,  were in a heat wave at the moment, daytime temps in the eighties,   been like it for a couple of weeks, grass has stopped growing and turned brown, 10 day  forcast is pretty much the same.

been some discussion of the new police guidlines on another uk naturist forum,   general concensus among the free range walkers seems to be that covering up when meeting someone in the wilds is no longer a priority as the risk of arrest is diminished... provided the emergency call handlers are doing their jobs.    BUT  theres still the chance of confrontation by a member of the public who is ignorant of the guidlines.     its going to take time for the public at large to become as aware as we are  ,   unless theres a big publicity drive in the media.... press ,tv, facebook.... it will be a long slow process of raising awareness by a few nudists leaving their shorts in their backpacks.

im pretty sure that what was the central avon and somerset police call centre now covers devon and cornwall as well so there should be consistancy of response over a large area,

general feeling amongst naturists apears to be  that confrontational nudity in the highstreet will do no good at all,  generally we are quite happy to continue walking in the wilds or using our own gardens with the knowledge that someone catching a glimpse of bare butt shouldnt  result in a visit from plod.

you may get more nudity amongst the crowds at festivals, but that wont affect me.
and how or whether this affects the fashion / clothing industry is of no real intrest either.... but i doubt it will be significant,   

non naturists are firmly convinced its only possible to be naked outdoors when the sun shines and its well over seventy degrees.... which they think only happens rarely in the uk.

all the above is based on my own experience and discussion on another uk naturist forum


still doesnt address my biggest problem..... actually having the time to go for a ramble

[BlueTrain]

There is still the risk of being shunned by your neighbors, if you have any. Ironically, during prohibition in the states (and nowhere else) in the 1920s, there was nothing bad about having a bottle of illegal liquor or even beer in the house. No worse than driving a few miles over the speed limit, apparently. I guess nobody thought those things were immoral, except for those who wanted it banned in the first place. But nobody dares talk about banning alcohol now.

I'm all for sunny days, red hair notwithstanding, but my lower limit is probably about 60 degrees F., inside or out. Of course, that is if I'm doing anything. Most of the places I walk are shady, though, which is a good thing, at least when the leaves are out. The Appalachian Trail is described as a green tunnel and it pretty much is.

[BlueTrain]

By the way, at 5:09 in the morning, it is 80 degrees F. (27 C). We've had plenty of rain and nothing is turning brown. Lots of healthy mosquitos, too.

[Peter S]

What Ric said. The new guidelines have been a talking point inside the naturist “community” (if there really is such a thing) but unmentioned outside it - while it may give some more confidence to not cover up while on walks, it’s never going to lead to a revolution on the streets. We are British, after all.

These guidelines serve two causes. For BN they help clear up the legalities and will hopefully protect naturists going about their lawful business naked - they don’t presage a mass culture change. For the police they will act as a money-saver; if police call centres can tell callers “it’s not a crime” then police officers won’t have to be despatched to deal with it - money-saver!

Not connected to this but maybe of more use in cultural understanding, one of our local newspaper groups appears to have a naturist advocate in a central position. This all the newspapers in what is a nationwide group carry features syndicated from head office; on a not infrequent basis for a couple of years now they have run features on “where you can get naked in XXX”, complete with chapter and verse on the legal situation, making it clear that simple naked is not of itself illegal.

This information tends to get repeated underneath the occasional stories about “person seen walking naked” shock horror (the shocked and horrified member of the public always being so shocked and horrified as to whip out their mobile phone for photos or videos, often while driving, which is illegal).

[BlueTrain]

You bring up an interesting point, that of community. If you aren't a dues-paying member of a club or other organization, then the only community you belong to is this forum and others like it. Some nudist clubs are "non-landed," meaning they don't have actual club facilities. The local club here, Potomac Rambling Bares, goes back to 1984 but is small, currently only about three dozen members. But they are affiliated with the AANR and their activities include visiting other clubs as well as nude beaches but also at member's homes. It is sometimes described as a travel club. So that is a real community, small that it is.

Perhaps that is part of the problem: there is little real community among nudists. By that I mean that in spite of whatever numbers of people actually patronize nude beaches (which I'm sure greatly outnumber nude hikers), there is little meaningful organization. Yet somehow, at least one legal municipal beach was established in Florida. Black's Beach on the West Coast may not have the same legal status but that and a few others are probably safe for now. I suspect the average person might not consider being nude at the beach as being "nude in public," and a long ways from walking down Main Street (or High Street) free of clothing. Of course, you can't really wear swimwear in those places either.

[Greenbare Woods]

Here in Massachusetts we don't pay sales tax on clothing. So does your theory apply here, Bob?

Taxes vary from place to place.   I'll bet the clothing stores in MA are paying a large tax of some kind.   

[Greenbare Woods]

The local club here, Potomac Rambling Bares, goes back to 1984 but is small, currently only about three dozen members. But they are affiliated with the AANR and their activities include visiting other clubs as well as nude beaches but also at member's homes. It is sometimes described as a travel club. So that is a real community, small that it is.

I once belonged to a similar club in Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA.  It was difficult for most members to go nude hiking because of a small risk of being seen naked by someone not part of a nudist club.   Many club nudists probably still want nudity restricted to "appropriate places on private property."   Meanwhile many of the naked on all public lands and home gardens people are "naturists" who don't belong to the clubs.
 

Perhaps that is part of the problem: there is little real community among nudists. By that I mean that in spite of whatever numbers of people actually patronize nude beaches (which I'm sure greatly outnumber nude hikers), there is little meaningful organization. Yet somehow, at least one legal municipal beach was established in Florida. Black's Beach on the West Coast may not have the same legal status but that and a few others are probably safe for now. I suspect the average person might not consider being nude at the beach as being "nude in public," and a long ways from walking down Main Street (or High Street) free of clothing. Of course, you can't really wear swimwear in those places either.

Our laws here are similar to the laws in England.  Minding your own business naked is not prohibited.  Intentionally causing someone else to be "affronted or alarmed" by being naked is a minor crime.  But there is no public guidance for police or public.   Not from police.  Not from nudist organizations with vested interest in keeping naked people attending their resorts. 

I think that there are a small number of people who will begin going naked in public.  A few years ago in San Francisco it was made public by court decisions that minding your own business naked is not illegal in California.  In a year there were a few people who began going naked on public streets, public transportation, and wanting to be served at cafes.   The City Council got their knickers in a twist and passed a City Ordinance against being naked.  Converting the whole public to nude acceptance is a process. It doesn't happen overnight. 

[jbeegoode]

a few random musings from the british isles 

non naturists are firmly convinced its only possible to be naked outdoors when the sun shines and its well over seventy degrees.... which they think only happens rarely in the uk.

all the above is based on my own experience and discussion on another uk naturist forum


still doesnt address my biggest problem..... actually having the time to go for a ramble

"Naturist" me, like yesterday said this very thing about rain in the UK. I actually asked how often that it rained there. When the weather changes on this desert rat, those, to me, cold  temps under 70F dampen my spirit about not being sheltered by something on my body in varying extent.

I supposed that that would be a factor in in the growth of people taking part in public nudity and that it may manifest indoors like bars first. The is plenty of room for rogue behaviors out there among non-naturists.

About the other line about finding time. It rained here some yesterday, after months, but once. I was in an urban area. Joyously, I wanted to be the backyard dancing in the warm refreshment and sensual treat, or sit under the leaky porch without concern for wet clothing, to experience the splash. I needed to take the trash out. I couldn't without dressing. When I left, it was dark. I undressed, opened the sunroof, rolled down some windows and drove home in comfort and that felt very good all the way. This is just an example of finding time in a lifestyle that this ruling would allow other than a ramble. When I set myself to be naked as I care to, I bump into these little obstacles.

Secretly putting on shirt and shoes in a parking lot before going shopping is a pain. Just throwing something on, outside the car, would just be sensible and convenient. So, I now ask if over there a store proprietor has the right to refuse service to someone that they don't think is dressed appropriately? Here, you might see signs outside stating, "NO SHIRT, NO SHOES, NO SERVICE."
You can discriminate that way, but not for race, religion, ethnic, or gender preferences. What's it like over there? Can naked be kicked out, or does this ruling open doors?
Jbee