New Brit Clarifictaion of Nudity Law

[Peter S]

Trying to define a "community" these days is an elusive thing. Once, and not that long ago, a street, or an area of several streets, or a village, even a small town could be called "community". When I started work at a local newspaper 40-something years ago that idea was already on its way out. Of course people talked about their tow or village community, but in reality that was falling apart - all too many people slept in their village but worked outside it, there was no longer a school or shop and often no longer a pub, so many previously-community activities moved elsewhere and fragmented.

Families had long since given up staying within yards of where they were born, and had spread across country. More and more "communities" were defined by common interest rather than locality. So the tennis club was a community focus, but members came from 30 miles around, and so on.

Nowadays our communities are wired together across continents and oceans. We have this little community here; I'm probably within 50 miles of ric, maybe a bit more from Davie and Nuduke, but we're pretty unlikely to meet in the flesh (can be arranged, guys, let me know).  On another forum there are members even closer; we've yet to meet up, though we converse frequently on screen.

But is any of that the sort of community whose members will bring you chicken soup if you're ill, or tell you what your kids were up to behind the bus shelter? Too much change for a bare of very little brain like me to handle ...

[jbeegoode]

Now that you mention it,the definition community has changed. I remember it like that here, too.

So, with this change in definition, I think that naturist communities are out there just not so evident. For example, I have a group around the sweat community, over one hundred until it was fragmented. We'd get together and hang out nude, but we also had potlucks, parties, thanksgiving, individual sub-groups of friend that would take care when sick and grieve together. One of us died and had a heart attack a couple of weeks ago. The memorial was beautiful, because of the feeling community that showed up. We kept our clothes on, but had there been a water feature, or some reason, we'd have been in it naked, if we pleased.

There are many who don't go to naturist places, but have just a few friends and a backyard, or something. There are also, people with interest in something else that get naked unabashedly, for example, hiking and finding a skinnydip spot. I think all would define as community, interested in body freedom, backing it, but are not self defining as "naturists."

No there is are swinger communities, and kinky this and that communities. I'm concerned what they may do with this. The line gets blurred and confused with them. Their behavior could confuse the public and police. They dress provocatively and some will do that in public, which is "adult" entertainment.
Jbee

[BlueTrain]

What people are interested in doing when nude can be an issue, to be sure, but I imagine there's another thread about that. However, community can take several forms, with different strengths.

People living in the same neighborhood form the most basic and traditional community. The borders might be vague and even a small town might have several communities, usually separated by some physical barrier or distance. The building of modern multi-lane highways in cities sometimes split communities, which has happened where I live. But that happened decades ago and life goes on. In my own hometown of seven or eight thousand people, the railroad yards divided the city. That was a hundred years ago. Communities can be destroyed, too, which usually happens when urban renewal removes entire neighborhoods and replaces them with expensive high rise apartment buildings, leaving no literal street-level community. This sort of community can be the strongest and just try and move the school boundaries if you don't think so. But some communities are also very weak and transient.

There can also be a community of sorts in a region where a significant number of people engage in a like activity, seeing one another frequently, usually in the context of club membership. People get to know one another and see one another in social activities outside of the nominal activity of the group. I used to be involved in Scottish country dancing and there were three or four very active groups around here with overlapping membership. In fact, that's where I met my wife. I don't know if membership in a country club counts as being part of a community.

Then, there are what might be called virtual communities, like this one, totally unofficial and generally unorganized (or disorganized) but very real nevertheless. Members usually never see one another but might get to know one another after a fashion through frequent communication, which I'm doing right now. They may or may not keep up with issues affecting their common interests but the lack of any real organization would seem to suggest an inability to project a coherent response to events. So you could say there is a nudist/naturist community, a hiking community, a hunting or fishing community, a sports car community and so on. And we can be members of several communities, too, because we all have other interests.

[ric]

Just had a look at a local weather station...6mm in June over 100 in may about 2 mm so far in July,  none forcast for next week.
I emptied the rain water butts weeks ago.    Now got 2  plastic barrels by the poly tunnel , just over 400 litres refill every 2 days from the well.  This way my beans and tomatoes get warm pure water rather than cold chlorinated stuff out the mains.

We're not far from the centre of the universe that is Glastonbury..., There's definitely a Glastonbury way of life maybe nudity in the high Street there would be tolerated.,..like the funny smelling cigarettes..... Go a couple of miles down the road to Street and you're in a whole different conservative \ Victorian mindset.

[BlueTrain]

I'll bet they don't drink the same beer, either, and you probably have trouble understanding them.

[John P]

Our laws here are similar to the laws in England.  Minding your own business naked is  not prohibited.  Intentionally causing someone else to be "affronted or alarmed" by  being naked is a minor crime.  But there is no public guidance for police or public.    Not from police.  Not from nudist organizations with vested interest in keeping naked  people attending their resorts. 

I think that there are a small number of people who will begin going naked in public.   A few years ago in San Francisco it was made public by court decisions that minding  your own business naked is not illegal in California.  In a year there were a few  people who began going naked on public streets, public transportation, and wanting to  be served at cafes.   The City Council got their knickers in a twist and passed a City  Ordinance against being naked.  Converting the whole public to nude acceptance is a  process. It doesn't happen overnight.

The law in England and Wales still does contain the Public Order Act, which doesn't  require you to have the intent of causing "affront or alarm", although the  likelihood of actually offending under that law seems to be getting smaller and  smaller. Being nude in the High Street at noon might be taken that way, though.

The San Francisco debacle was a sad business, and Bob, I'm sorry to see you telling the  story in such an incomplete way. The issue wasn't nudity alone, but the fact that some  of the men there were going around with genital jewelry, designed to "stimulate or  simulate" an erection. Possibly some of the local businesspeople or politicians weren't  enthusiastic about public nudity, but the crackdown came after the sexual displays  began being more blatant. I was very disappointed in the way that naturists (the  "naturist community", ha ha) dealt with it. They were exceedingly unwilling to say that  there was exhibitionism going on and that it needed to stop: instead they tried to  defend "public nudity" and ignored the way it was being abused, abused in my opinion  anyway. It's the same response that we've repeatedly seen when gay men use nude beaches  as gathering places for guys looking for sexual partners, "cruising" as they call it.  Naturists may be showing a misplaced liberal outlook, or may not want to call attention  to the kind of behavior that nude venues attract, or may not want to risk a conflict  with gays, if it's gays causing the problem, but one way or another I think we're  harming ourselves by pretending not to see what's entirely obvious. We may even seem as  if we're all in favor of it!

In a similar cheerful vein, I really hope that the liberalization of nudity in Britain  won't lead to trouble. What if there turn out to be a significant number of men who  want to exercise their naturist rights as close to women and children as they can? Sad  to say, I think there are guys like this, and if exhibitionists start causing problems  in public places, then I think these new rights will be in danger. And apart from guys  wanting to show off their own lovely bodies, there may be voyeurs hoping to see naked  women, who'll make it certain that any nudity that occurs will be adult men, and nobody else. Sometimes I find it difficult to keep up my idealist outlook!

[Greenbare Woods]

Naked man strolls through downtown Burlington, VT, USA.

https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/local/2018/07/05/burlington-naked-man-heat-wave-freedom/760707002/

Nudity is legal in VT.    If this happens a few more times the newspaper will get tired of reporting it.   Very few comments on the article.

They also printed a police explanation about nude law in VT.
https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/life/2018/07/06/naked-vermont-burlington-police-explain-when-nudity-crosses-line/762719002/

I expect some nudists to be strolling through UK cities whenever they feel like it.

[jbeegoode]

Thank-you for taking the time to create that good clarification, J.P. Let's not forget the politician that did the push. It would appear his drive was for his own gain, by his statements and the context.

As an aside. I hope not to hyjack the topic, much. I'm taking care of an old school 90 year old gay man. To him, it is okay to be gay, do the gay rights t-shirt, liberate thing that back when, were considered totally wrong, illegal, disgusting, etc.

His eyelids pop up, "oh, no, no, nobody better be skinnydipping in MY pool." Like it is an affront, just wrong, just not done.

One action associates sexuality. One doesn't, or with a sane clear mind shouldn't. Both are nobodies business but ones own.
Jbee

[John P]

Sometimes your messages can be a little obscure, JBG. If "Let's not forget the politician that did the push. It would appear his drive was for his own gain, by his statements and the context" means Scott Wiener, who pushed the anti-nudity policy in the San Francisco Board of Supervisors (that's what they call the City Council there) then I think you're being unfair to him, as naturists were back when it was all taking place.

I think a politician should support his constituency. The business people were complaining that their customers had to walk past exhibitionists to get to their stores. What should he have done, said "Well gee, they're just enjoying life in their own way, I won't disturb them"? He used his office to take some action. If naturists didn't like his plan, they could have acknowledged the problem and tried to find other ways to solve it, maybe even tried to persuade the guys to move off the street. Instead it was just "Scott Wiener is being soooooo meeeeeeean" while the city passed a ban on nudity. I can recall certain naturist activists, whom I'd like to respect, saying "There are laws against lewd conduct, and if that's what's happening, the police there ought to be dealing with it". Which was fine, except that the police were saying they couldn't tell the difference between "lewd" nudity and the nicer kind, and they weren't going to be the ones to decide. But banning all nudity could be done, and it was done.

That last point makes me think about Facebook, which too many naturists complain about as being soooooo meeeeeeean about nudity. Nobody wants to deal with the concern that if they allowed nudity, the service would fill up with pornography (I am certain that it would--look at Tumblr) and if they wanted to do anything about it, they'd have to hire people to decide what to allow and what to block, all while facing a chorus of disagreement from users. It's so much easier to say "No nudity!" The number of people who complain isn't very large.

Anyway, in San Francisco meeeeeeean people evidently don't prosper. The nudists/exhibitionists have gone, but there's other stuff happening that still doesn't improve the neighborhood:
https://thebolditalic.com/planters-in-castro-parklet-are-magnets-for-bad-behavior-the-bold-italic-san-francisco-e05e31d18cc4

[Greenbare Woods]

Wouldn't it be nice if the City Council, Board of Supervisors, Legislature, or Parliament began passing laws telling people what we can do instead of always ratcheting down more and more restrictions?   

And they wonder why less than half the people can still stomach voting for any of the rotten swine.   

[BlueTrain]

I take it you've never actually known a public office holder.

[Greenbare Woods]

I take it you've never actually known a public office holder.

I've known several.  I spent last night at our Congress person's BBQ, mixing with politicians and hearing speeches.  They make lots of promises, but they always vote for more and more ratcheting controls.  With the possible exception of President Trump, none of them ever remove laws and rules, excuses for their hired bullies to arrest and punish people who's ancestors once were free men. 

[BlueTrain]

Congress does not have a law enforcement arm.

[Greenbare Woods]

Congress does not have a law enforcement arm.

Congress created the Federal Marshals Service in 1789, and has created a long and growing list of law enforcement agencies ever since.  All US Federal law enforcement agencies are created and owned by the Congress and administered by the President.

The BBQ I attended last night was sponsored by our local Congress person, and was attended by numerous politicians including the County Sheriff. 

[BlueTrain]

All I can say is that none of them set up speed traps, except for the Park Police. Have you been bullied? Some of our ancestors were slaves--and some were slave owners. All this talk about free men sometimes is a little hollow. No offense.