The Environmental and Human damage caused by clothing is huge and unnecissary.

[Greenbare Woods]

or motoring's carbon monoxide - the difference lies in whether the planet and its inhabitants can cope with those traces.

Carbon Dioxide is absolutely necessary for all green plants.  Over the past million years the carbon dioxide (CO2) percentage of our atmosphere has declined to near suffocation for green plants.  Plant growth is seriously slowed by the lack of sufficient CO2.  There is a limit beyond which all plants die and everything that feeds on plants go with them.  The long term trend is that the lower limit for plant survival is coming sooner rather than later.   Human activity that increases atmospheric CO2 is far more beneficial to plant (and animal) survival than shoveling horse shit.

the threshold of 150 ppm below which plants begin first to starve, then stop growing altogether, and then die.

Here is more good science of CO2 and plants https://www.technocracy.news/former-president-of-greenpeace-scientifically-rips-climate-change-to-shreds/

[eyesup]

Lets all get a horse.

The world population is estimated to be 7.6 billion people. According to that website, the world's population hit 1 billion in about 1804 and only 214 years more to reach 7.6 billion.

Even allowing for the number of people that live in metro areas, can you imagine the amount of land that would be designated to corral and produce food for that many horses? You think we have a problem now with current livestock populations and the byproducts generated by them. How much more would be produced by the horses?

Ahhhh . . . horse s?@t!

This discussion of horses and the pollution they produce made think of Charlie Chaplin in “City Lights’, where the Tramp, working as a street-sweeper, avoids a parade of horses only to run into a parade of elephants. His body language when he sees the elephants is hilarious.

It is a comment upon life, my friends.

How true, John! To evade one responsibility only to have a larger one land in you lap? Classic Chaplin!

Ahhhh . . . elephant s?@t!

Duane

[jbeegoode]

Well, humans are part of nature. This is where we belong, here on earth. Men are not from Mars and women are not from Venus. We shouldn't apply different standards for humans than we do for animals, although it is certainly true that people have affected the earth more and sometimes in a bad way. We may look at a photo of the plains covered with buffalo or some other hoofed animal and say that is good, then look at a place crowded with people and say that is bad. That makes no sense. Of course, not all animals run in herds.

It's also difficult to see that human time is different from geological time. Your own house, depending on where you live, could easily return to nature if you weren't constantly working to maintain it. Whole cities have disappeared beneath foliage and dust. We have had little ice ages a few hundred years ago that no one has ever claimed was caused by humans. The earth and the weather (Mother Nature, we might say) are neither for nor against us. It just is.

Did you ever wonder why some places are referred to as the mother country while others are referred to as the fatherland?

Buffalo have a more ecological hoof print. They eat certai plants. They keep moving with the seasons giving things time to recover. If they eat too much, there are too many and they die off, or back. In the 1830's, when my white ancestors moved to the American plains, the buffalo herds would take days to pass through, so the family stories go.

This is nothing at all like having too many humans moving and taking up residence.

Jus' gotta stick up for the bison.
Jbee

[jbeegoode]

or motoring's carbon monoxide - the difference lies in whether the planet and its inhabitants can cope with those traces.

Carbon Dioxide is absolutely necessary for all green plants.  Over the past million years the carbon dioxide (CO2) percentage of our atmosphere has declined to near suffocation for green plants.  Plant growth is seriously slowed by the lack of sufficient CO2.  There is a limit beyond which all plants die and everything that feeds on plants go with them.  The long term trend is that the lower limit for plant survival is coming sooner rather than later.   Human activity that increases atmospheric CO2 is far more beneficial to plant (and animal) survival than shoveling horse shit.

the threshold of 150 ppm below which plants begin first to starve, then stop growing altogether, and then die.

Here is more good science of CO2 and plants https://www.technocracy.news/former-president-of-greenpeace-scientifically-rips-climate-change-to-shreds/

2015. Every argument that he made has been refuted by a number of scientist. I'm grateful for the Rainbow Warrior, which I used to contribute in the 1980's. His heart was in the right place. His thinking wasn't always, according to a couple of his peers, PHD's, who also manned those ships. He is notably a radical, a maverick, some ways that's a good thing, some ways not so good. Co2 good, too much Co2 bad. The planet has balance. The balance is struggling.

Who are the major funders of this website and organization.

[BlueTrain]

Whatever you say about it, good or bad, it's a closed system. Nothing has been added and nothing is removed. As long as the rich are happy, nothing will be done, which is not to say that nothing will change.

[eyesup]

The reason cattle never had those cycles is because the herds were protected. Buffalo were not domesticated and had their migration patterns. Plus there was millions of acres to roam on.

In the late 19th century, there were wild cattle in Texas left from the original Spanish explorers from the early 16th century. Tough, rangy and just as free from human influence as the buffalo were. They were the basis of the large original cattle drives from the late 19th century.

What did the mamma buffalo say to her son when he left for college?
Bison!

Duane

[nuduke]

Horse and Cow shit is a big source of methane as is cow fart.


…..Now we're just talking dirty for the fun of it!

I just looked in my closet. Everything in there is over ten years old, except two pairs of dress slacks.

You old scruff bag, Jbee!
John

[jbeegoode]

The stuff is like new, barely worn!
Jbee

[ric]

weve just spent the weekend in a flat in the village with young uns labrador

taking mutley for walks arround the village and nearby lanes weve come accross the dog poo problem..... at home in the wilds dog just poops on the overgrowm grass verges,,,, in the urban environment we have to use plastic bags which are then deposited in the roadside dog poop bins or can be double baged in domestic rubbish bins


what actually happens to all these plastic bags of dog poo..... i cant see the council employing someone the separate the bags.... i guess it all goes to landfill

would seem far more sensible on the lanes to just use a disposable glove to sling the biodegradable poo into the hedge bottoms... but thats a substantial fine if caught.



same things happening with human waste ... the water closet has produced a waste product out of what used to be fertiliser for great granddads vegetables.

[Peter S]

The product of our sewage treatment works does actually go back to the land, Ric. Once it’s been suitably cleaned and treated the resultant sludge is dried and sold to farmers as fertiliser. I think there are some parts of the world where it’s used more directly, but this is probably the best way to handle (!) industrial quantities of the stuff.

Incidentally, if ever you pass a sewage treatment works you’ll see some wonderful tomatoes growing - seems tomato pips pass right through us and on through the system to self-plant at the end of the trip.

[Greenbare Woods]

same things happening with human waste ... the water closet has produced a waste product out of what used to be fertiliser for great granddads vegetables.

Human waste contains parasites such as hookworms which are picked up again by human feet that walk in areas where humans deposit waste.  Hookworm becomes problematic where humans go naked feet and poo on the land.  Other bio hazards such as e-coli also are health problems. 

I don't think human pee causes health problems on lawns, trees, gardens, or bushes. 

[jbeegoode]

Ah yes, the JApanese honey buckets. The aroma would permeat the post war countryside. I was a chilfd there in 1955. They had these deep and about 10x10 as I remember (ha, memories at 4 years old) pits for waste, including human. It was a sudge for creating wondeful fertiizer.

Momma and her friend got a flat tire and were pulled off the road in that '54 black and red Buick. Momma and her friend were terrified. Two Japanese men politely were helping them out (not raping and beating, or kidnapping them as feared). I was with a little girl, the friends daughter in the back seat.

During the tire change, she wandered off disobeying. She fell in. She was stripped on het side of the road wiped down and wrapped in scratchy green military blankets. I had to sit in back with her and her bouquet. We were afraid that she could pick up a disease, and I was to stay away from her. She was afraid that she was going to die from the poisons.

I do remember thinking how humiliating being made naked on the side of the road, etc. must have been for her and she was in some "deep sh***t" trouble. She HAD to go naked!! I saw her naked!! The crap that they deposit in children's minds.

What a way to go, drowning in a sh**t hole.

Anyway, The Japanese certainly do have some fermented ancient science, from foods and kombucha and alcohol drinks to fertilizer methods. We were told growing up that the human factor in the fertilizer is what caused diarrhea and disentary, Montezuma's revenge. Don't eat the vegetables. Inferior methods get you sick and that modern chemical fertilizers eliminate such dangers. Corporate propaganda, most likely, way back then.

Yea, Bob, when I was in the Bolivian mountains in the "70's. I was told of a parasite that would get into bare feet and then grow in the system to over six inches. Strange things in teh jungles, don't know if it was a human activity problem, or not.
Jbee

[Greenbare Woods]

The other side of the argument says that western culture being way too clean is responsible for the epidemic of autism, Alzheimer's, and several other biological problems now increasing in western CLEAN populations.   There are about 100 harmful bacteria and tens of thousands of symbiotic or necessary bacteria.  Visitors from clean places get Montezuma's revenge but local's don't.  There is a lot of ongoing research into the interplay between human immune systems and bio-diversity in our guts.   

[John P]

I don't know about a non-sterile environment preventing Alzheimer's disease. Shakespeare wrote about "second childishness and mere oblivion" and people certainly weren't avoiding bacteria then! Not that they'd recognize the idea, and not that many lived long enough to become senile, of course.

Bob, is it possible that you've confused Alzheimer's and allergies (hopefully not mere oblivion creeping up)? There have been a fair number of reports suggesting that letting little kids play in the dirt, handle animals, and even receive other people's saliva, can help prevent allergies. But let's not lose track of the fact that infectious diseases, especially ones spread through food and water, were major killers in the past, and still are in some places. Once the nature of disease became clearer, it was easy to think that "the fewer germs around, the better" when actually, swallowing a few of them might make us more healthy rather than less.

I suppose you could say that local people being unaffected by the bugs that give tourists Montezuma's revenge or "Delhi belly" is a case of "What doesn't kill me, makes me strong" for the natives. Visitors might get sick, but what's the death rate among local children?

[jbeegoode]

Yes, Bob. Lots of research and they are just getting to scratching the surface of a very complex and far encompassing system. Must figure that they can make some money on it.

I shared a blood sausage with my Colombian friends at a little tiny street bodega in Bogota many years ago. I got very bad trichinosis. They were fine. Immunity built with these factors goes a long way.
Jbee