The Environmental and Human damage caused by clothing is huge and unnecissary.

[Peter S]

There seems to be a wide understanding that we need low level exposure to germs to establish immunity, but this gets shouted down by big business’ desire to sell us things that reinforce “hygiene” and “safety” by killing as many bugs as possible.

Office workers in sealed, efficient, air-conditioned buildings infamously get repeatedly ill breathing each other’s germs; when I was in a home service job going to a succession of houses every day, I was exposed to who-knows-what and never had as much as a cold, because, I believe, I was effectively inoculating myself with low-level exposure.

[Greenbare Woods]

There seems to be a wide understanding that we need low level exposure to germs to establish immunity, but this gets shouted down by big business’ desire to sell us things that reinforce “hygiene” and “safety” by killing as many bugs as possible.

Office workers in sealed, efficient, air-conditioned buildings infamously get repeatedly ill breathing each other’s germs; when I was in a home service job going to a succession of houses every day, I was exposed to who-knows-what and never had as much as a cold, because, I believe, I was effectively inoculating myself with low-level exposure.

After reading a few books on the subject there seems to be conjecture that a generational lack of symbiotic bacteria in the digestive system of children leads to the increasing epidemics of autism, food allergies, and other immune system related problems among children.   There is also conjecture that over time the same immune system deficiencies increase susceptibility of older people to heart problems and mental problems such as Alzheimer's disease or dementia.  The research is new and there are tens of thousand of different bacteria to study. 

Some of the research suggests that C-section births limit inoculation of children with mother's digestive bacteria. Natural born children tend to get a face full of shit and other biological material.  Bottle feeding also limits the child to a more sterile life. After 2 or more C-section generations the mothers don't even have a full range of biota to pass to children.   Some medical practitioners are now giving C-section children a jump start of mother's biota.

Most of the medical research seems to be about children, how to have healthy children with healthy immune systems.  Very limited information is available about what older people ought to do to be more healthy.   Some literature suggests that a child's immune system is "blank" when born and learns to accept its initial shared bacteria in its first year.  But what about older children and what about old people?  Can our immune systems learn to accept a more diverse biota and have less chance of Alzheimer's, etc?    I have found very little published information on that kind of question. 

I've taken to being less clean in my personal habits attempting to cover the bases if it helps.   We can't live forever but I'm willing to give up compulsive washing to live longer without brain problems.  Will that actually help?   Nothing says it will, but what they say about raising healthy children could be good for healthy adults.   What I do know is that the nonsense I have been taught all my life isn't working.  Western (clean) nations are having epidemics of immune system and digestive system failure.  It may just be nonsense but what can it hurt.   

[BlueTrain]

Were they that clean when the plague was killing people?

[Greenbare Woods]

Were they that clean when the plague was killing people?

Good point.   There are tens of thousands of beneficial symbiotic bacteria, and there are around 100 harmful bacteria.  There was wide spread starvation during the plagues.  Millions of people died of plague or other diseases that would have survived if they were otherwise healthy.  There is still conjecture about what exact infection caused "The plague."   We have a modern disease called "plague" which happens more in my former home state New Mexico than anywhere else in the US.  But, its symptoms don't look much like the medieval "black plague."   

We now have several diseases rising to epidemic proportion in "clean" western nations.  Cutting edge science is saying that they are associated with being too clean.  And every year the percentage of people suffering from the western epidemics increases. 

[BlueTrain]

A term I like to use is "hot-house people," (my own invention), although it has nothing to do with cleanliness. I think there may be a false assumption that primitive people are dirtier than we are and I don't think there is any reason to believe that. That is not to say they have the same standards of cleanliness that we do in our hot houses. Yet there is also no reason to believe that dirty people are any healthier than people who are clean. Being dirty is no achievement.

It is true, though, that some diseases and other ailments affect some parts of a population than others. But you have no control over that. These days, because there is more international travel, there is more frequent exposure to new strains of diseases. The whole subject of viruses and bacteria is very complicated, of course, and hard to discuss in a couple of paragraphs.

Remember also, that one of the reasons for the original nudist (and naturist, too, which wasn't the same thing) movement was because cities (in Germany) were considered to be dirty and unhealthy. Their solution was to take a vacation without clothes in the countryside. I suppose that's still the idea but along the way, cities have been made much better places to live, although that isn't true everywhere. People in Europe and other places have historically tended to live much closer together (crowded, you might say) than is the ideal in the United States. While some places are better than others for living, allowing for weather, no place is perfect. The problem with the ideal American suburban home on a half-acre lot is that you usually need a car to get around. Nothing is in convenient walking distance. Didn't always used to be that way.

[jbeegoode]

I had some bacteria rash on my crotch. Some air and time took it away. Wearing clothes too often in this construction thing, it appeared to be coming back. I also suspect that because it occurred with new unwashed underwear that the chemical in the cloth could have had something to do with it.

So, I did a sweat yesterday, with friends at a friends. Mostly dry sauna, about two hours hanging out, catching up, naked with seven friends. Symptoms disappeared. The sweat worked better than any anti-bacterial soap.

Anyway, sauna with friends and naked time air bathing surely helped. Something in the environment caused the problem.

Does that make me a dirty person, or a too clean person? I think that the situation is too complex to be so finite.

I think that air and heat, and natural sweating action and extreme temps, and detox makes me more natural and healthier in an old school manner. I think that introduction to unnatural elements in the environment often create problems for bodies that never had these things until a relatively few years ago. I think, from what I've read and seen, that what you eat determines gut bacteria and gut bacteria ecology determines a grand range of effects on the rest of the bodies systems and balances. Mental and physical. Immunity and optimum health. The most assured course of action is more natural tried and true lifestyle change. Organic veggies from excellent soils, full motion variety in movement, less stress. Only wild meat, or naturally fed free range animals.

Doctor told me not to eat raw eggs, because of ecoli. You have to know your source and live living, lightly cooked, if cooked at all, is a more natural state. Fermented foods done in traditional manners are great bacteria balancers. Well balanced soil, gives well balanced plants, which give well balanced people and animals. You cook it too much, or let it sit too long and you loose nutrients and enzimes and on...and on....
Jbee

 

[ric]

hot house people...

here in the uk they really exist, houses are heated 24 hours a day, people go to heated work places in heated cars...some dont even seem to own a coat.

its now nearly end of november,  were in our first winter in our retirement flat, havnt turned any heating on yet and the mrs insists on the bedroom window wide open...we had a frost one night last week.

a lot of people are nurturing their bacteria and creepy crawlies all winter.

[John P]

If you went back to the 1930s or so, you'd find that nudists would be likely to have an interest in all kinds of health fads, mostly not harmful, but definitely not leading to a comfortable life. Now nudist resorts are mostly like any other resort, with people there to relax rather than to improve their health. In fact I've heard some people saying they're surprised at how much nudists smoke and drink! I can't say I've seen that myself; with my friends, it's more a question of what people do when they socialize, but I don't know anyone who smokes. Of course, we're outdoor naturists who have physical activity in mind, so we're probably healthier than most.

Personally, I tend to stay away from any kind of "alternative" view of health. There are some things we should all stay away from (tobacco, for a start) but most of the time it's "Who the hell knows".

George Orwell had an amusing description of who showed up if anyone tried to organize a meeting of socialists in Britain in the 1930s. It's not directly related to naturism, but we get mentioned. I think you could find the same kind of people today!

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.

[Greenbare Woods]

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.

That observation is not far off even today. 

[jbeegoode]

Were they that clean when the plague was killing people?

Good point.   There are tens of thousands of beneficial symbiotic bacteria, and there are around 100 harmful bacteria.  There was wide spread starvation during the plagues.  Millions of people died of plague or other diseases that would have survived if they were otherwise healthy.  There is still conjecture about what exact infection caused "The plague."   We have a modern disease called "plague" which happens more in my former home state New Mexico than anywhere else in the US.  But, its symptoms don't look much like the medieval "black plague."   

We now have several diseases rising to epidemic proportion in "clean" western nations.  Cutting edge science is saying that they are associated with being too clean.  And every year the percentage of people suffering from the western epidemics increases.

I occurred to me that the estimated 25 million South American Native Americans that succumbed to European diseases with the arrival of the Spaniards. Also, the Native American population that was decimated when Europeans arrived in Massachusetts, creating a need to have alliance with Europeans to protect against the unaffected tribe to the west, which created the Thanksgiving feast. Then, there was the millions in the southeastern US that were decimated faster than the Euopeans could get to them, so they were thought of as a much less significant civilization. They had no immunity, but hygiene being a factor is debatable, or considered irrelevant when the cause was lack of exposure for immunity.

Jus' sayin' for discussion.
Jbee

[jbeegoode]

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.

That observation is not far off even today.

Yup, an open-minded group that would get naked with one another...

...When I go to resorts, I find more political conservatism than democratic socialists or progressives.

Although they protested in England naked in the streets a couple of centuries back, I haven't known Quakers to fit that. It surprised me to read of Orwell as such.
Jbee

[ric]

Complementary is a better word than alternative.   The pills and surgeons knife complement the natural lifestyle  but are there as a last resort

[BlueTrain]

I would use the word "natural" cautiously. Mud is natural and so is death. Yet the word "naturist" implies something better than "ordinary," meaning the way people live their everyday lives. The word was coined because there were more than one movement, all connected in different ways with nature. So those movements (nudism, hiking and camping, and conservation) were chiefly urban movements. The objects and ideals of those movements had little meaning to rural folk. Those were the original ideals. Nudism in particular had evolved by the 1930s.

Nudism never existed in a vacuum. It has always had to contend with and was influenced by contemporary issues, both political, economic and social. But I am also generally referring to nudism as an organized movement, not to those who might have been the free range nudists of the day.

One old book about nudism, which I think is "Nudism in Modern Life," said that in the future, heating systems in homes (and maybe workplaces) would be so efficient that people could enjoy nude living year round. I suppose that has come to pass. That isn't what I meant by hot house people, nor did I mean those people you see driving around in their cars wearing just a t-shirt (and we assume pants or shorts) when there's snow on the ground. Of course, the always-in-a-hurry UPS man wears shorts for most of the year. Even my old boss of 18 years before we both retired, who always wore a dark blue suit every day of his working life, would not wear a winter coat until the temperature was below about 20 degrees F. He grew up in what was Northern Rhodesia. Personally, I think you should dress to be prepared to spend the night outside.

[ric]

last few decades weve been spraying chlorine bleaches round our bathrooms and kitchens, most civilised places add it to the drinking water, some mornings you can smell it in our tap water.   yet its been banned from the battlefield following the gas attacks in the first world war.

personally i avoid chlorine based cleaning products as much as possible.

[BlueTrain]

I use copious amounts of chlorine bleach.