Author Topic: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism  (Read 1950 times)

Naturistplace

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Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« on: February 15, 2019, 10:43:21 AM »
It seems about time to make this a separate topic (continuing from Fear of Nudity)

See the later posts in Fear of Nudity for the related comments.

The problem is that making something - such as naturism - viral isn't easy. It takes effort of the part of various people, as well as favorable circumstances.

This article from Australia shows a good example of successfully going viral:  https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/wtf/why-millennials-keep-getting-naked-in-public/news-story/c037f37c6f0d83808b584e0e78b82750 (Why millennials keep getting naked in public)

What factors made this go viral? Here are just a few guesses. First, there was one person behind it initially. But he managed, evidently with a sustained effort, to get people to post naturist pictures of themselves on Instagram - which isn't easy, since IG is owned by Facebook, and doesn't allow frontal nudity. So most of the pictures were taken from behind. Apparently that's acceptable. Also, since the pictures usually don't show faces, people are OK doing it, since they can't be identified (easily). The pictures are mostly outdoors in scenic places. Everyone looks like they're having a great time. (The stereotyped poses convey that.) The message that being naked outdoors is really fun is a big incentive. Fortunately, the message is also true. Since the target group is "millennials", who are young (became adults in 2000-2009 or so), those pictured usually have "attractive" bodies, but body acceptance is also promoted. 

The real trick was getting the first few hundred pictures. There are, as of this writing, amost 2000 pictures. Also there are (at least) 229,000 "followers", whatever that means. Not bad, but the question is how many actually continue doing naturist things. Australia is fortunate to have some clothing optional beaches near populous areas - and a rather warm summer climate. It's no surprise that looking at pictures of reasonably attractive naked people is popular. Only a few of all those followers will submit their own pictures, of course, and fewer still will become active naturists. But there's clearly a monkey see-monkey do thing going on. When people see this sort of thing happening in "real life", they will at least ask themselves whether they should try it themselves. Just reading arguments why naturism is great isn't quite enough.

Could this work in the U. S.? Hard to say. It could work in states like Florida, Texas, Arizona, California, etc. But someone, or a few someones, must take the initiative to get it started.

John P

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2019, 11:39:55 AM »
So many things wrong. This isn't naturism, it's exhibitionism/voyeurism. If it had any validity, it would belong in the General Naturism section. And it's already been mentioned there, under "Nudes in the News".


BlueTrain

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2019, 12:24:45 PM »
I notice the word "rebranding" was used. I never cared for the way that word (brand or branding) has been used lately. Maybe my vocabulary is out of date.

I also notice among the photos that nobody looked to be my age (72) and that most, but not all, had white butts (whitetails!). So, the whole thing looks to be more of a lark than anything else.

What's a 'naturist thing" anyway other than not wearing clothes whenever possible. It isn't like nudists do things other people don't do, other than call themselves normal and everyone else abnormal and textile-compulsive, which sounds mildly arrogant. After all, they say, there's a small tribe somewhere in Central Africa and another in New Guinea that go naked, at least the men do, so why doesn't everyone? That's the stuff you hear. There needs to be more persuasive language than that.

Naturistplace

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2019, 08:34:01 PM »
"I also notice among the photos that nobody looked to be my age (72)"

Of course. This is all about what young people are doing. By the age of 72 almost everyone has decided whether or not they're interested in naturism. (And they've probably never heard of Instagram either.)

"most, but not all, had white butts (whitetails!)"

Of course. This is all about people trying naturism for the first time. Aren't we interested in new people trying it?

"the whole thing looks to be more of a lark than anything else."

Of course. Merriam-Webster: "lark: a source of or quest for amusement or adventure" Is there something wrong with that?


John P

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2019, 09:49:49 PM »
I went and took a look at the Facebook page, rather than what the newspaper said about it, and actually it does seem that they had some good intentions,  but they've ended up disappointed. They posted the item below (in italics) on Jan 31.

Out in the textile world, the expectation about nudity is that there will be lots of pictures of young women (no BlueTrain, you aren't welcome) presented for men to look at. That's how it's been for the last few centruries in everything from great art to the nastiest pornography, and it's the way many people think things should continue. I believe that naturists need to recognize this (mis)usage of nudity when we see it, and try to offer an alternative. One thing we should be saying is that we need to accept the diversity of human bodies--cute babes along with BlueTrain!

We will be taking a break from posting our user generated content on Facebook and seriously considering if we will ever be back.

Our page has become a playground for blokes to have perve on girls and inform the world which bum they like the most and how much they would just love to be there in the photo with them. Itís weird. Itís creepy. Weíre over it.

We called for support from other good hearted members of our community to post encouraging things, to call out the bad behavior and we thank the people that have done that. However it hasnít been enough.

As such, postings on this page will now be limited to blog posts and event notifications.

Apologies to all of our kind hearted followers who see the true beauty and fun in each of our photos, I hope weíll be back at some point.

Naturistplace

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2019, 10:47:55 PM »
Several quick things.

1. What I wanted to point out in the post was an example of how to make naturist ideas viral. It might be objected that could easily be done by showing lots more pictures of naked women rather than men. But that's not the case here. (See next point)

2. I haven't counted every picture on the IG page (~2000 total), but it sure seems close to 50-50 men and women.

3. This doesn't seem to be an example of men deliberately posting pictures of naked women that were found somewhere. Instead, unless this is a deliberate hoax, almost all the women are (a) posing voluntarily with the intention of their picture being shown, and (b) new to naturism and not paid models (white tails).

4. Facebook nudist/naturist groups are notorious for a preponderance of naked men posting pictures of themselves. If any of that is "pervy", it's the men. But this IG thing is dramatically different.

5. Quite a few of the pictures are very lighthearted and humorous. Most seem to be having a really good time. If you saw any half dozen of these pictures in a naturist publication, they would not seem at all out of place. (Except for how few faces are shown.) Compare to most of the naked men on Facebook.

Bob Knows

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2019, 02:09:02 AM »
I'm going to suggest that many women post nude photos on more sexually oriented sites.   Maybe "non-sexual" naturism isn't sexy enough to get women to post photos.

I moved to MeWe after Facebook jail and I find that a lot of Tumblr porn has moved to MeWe.  MUCH OF IT is amateur horny women posting their sexual or nude photos.   MeWe has pages like "Kama Sutra,"  "skanks and wanks,"  "Autumn's private page,"  "Dirty Public," and bunches more.    "Dirty Public" is about mostly women lifting skirts and showing their crotches in public places, often with other people in the background.   

I haven't made any attempt to count the number of sites and women but it appears to be a never ending stream of women who want to show off.  It reminds me of a story I read once about a photographer in Denver who wanted nude models.  He put a small ad in a local paper and had over 800 women show up at his door, all wanting to be photographed naked.   

What @Naturistplace observed about  Australians is that all those women seem to just want to show off.   It may take more sexual content to get women excited.  Maybe ordinary nudism is too boring. 

This may be entirely wrong, but there is a never ending stream of naked women on amateur porn sites.  Far more than on nude sites.   What do you guys think? 

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jbeegoode

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2019, 04:03:31 AM »
Several quick things.

1. What I wanted to point out in the post was an example of how to make naturist ideas viral. It might be objected that could easily be done by showing lots more pictures of naked women rather than men. But that's not the case here. (See next point)

2. I haven't counted every picture on the IG page (~2000 total), but it sure seems close to 50-50 men and women.

3. This doesn't seem to be an example of men deliberately posting pictures of naked women that were found somewhere. Instead, unless this is a deliberate hoax, almost all the women are (a) posing voluntarily with the intention of their picture being shown, and (b) new to naturism and not paid models (white tails).

4. Facebook nudist/naturist groups are notorious for a preponderance of naked men posting pictures of themselves. If any of that is "pervy", it's the men. But this IG thing is dramatically different.

5. Quite a few of the pictures are very lighthearted and humorous. Most seem to be having a really good time. If you saw any half dozen of these pictures in a naturist publication, they would not seem at all out of place. (Except for how few faces are shown.) Compare to most of the naked men on Facebook.
Ditto NAturistplace. These are a pile pics of young people having fun...naked. Yea, they are posing, but they are doing it in a fun active context and with their friends. This is more than "Le Liberte de Fesse" website posted people getting away with butts at national treasures. This is some 2000 shots of young people having a blast and okay to be exposed to an extent. DF and I went a couple of years before faces appeared on our site, with a lot of backsides and tricks to hide identity, like hat brims, reflections, on and on (it was a challenge and fun). The fact that they can be anonymous is just what many, or most, needed to participate in this activity. I think that if they hadn't had the purpose of the site, they probably wouldn't have gotten naked at all. Many of those would still have inhibitions without having some peer pressure to allow then to experience the fact that naked ain't such a horrible deal and quite fun. Let us remember the wisdom of Larry, "INCREMENTALISM,"...amen!

Today, anonymous butts, tomorrow, no prob with a pic between friends, or friends naked together, in normality.

A few got naked and bathed at Woodstock, were seen by millions and suddenly a significant number of those millions were experimenting with this cool thing. How many saw "Life Magazine" or the Woodstock album and thought, "hmm, looks fun." 224,000 followers means a million or more stopping in every so often. What, 2500 or 3500 participated? Yea, I'd bet for many it was just a lark, but they did it, and it didn't hurt and they know that.

There were some dits making judgemental comments like targets at a turkey shoot. Many probably crude. Too many to count, disappointing the blogger. I'd bet that that same thing went on when the photos were done. Girls comparing the "packages" and guys well, "checking it out" all curious. People comparing notes in their minds of other experiences with nudes is natural. Many were thinking, "everybody is flawed!", "Don't we look silly,"  "What a lowly imperfect crew we are," "teehee hee!" and "Wow, this is liberating, I'm not so pitiful." I just hope that when something happens like this here, like this summer, that I will be cool enough to know about it. I'd certainly troll the site and contradict and educate those rude comments. I'd set aside my time for that, to be the naked shadowy voice of reason and naturists philosophy.

On my site, about every ten comments that I get, some new ignorant doof, usually thinks that it is okay to compliment DF's body and it is laughable that some have appeared to be trying to do it politely. I'm sayin that these goofs are not so many as very vocal and just don't know any better. Many pics do show a lark atmosphere, these are not naturists for the most part, it is spontaneous. It is not surprising that a bloke sitting with a beer in his chair has no other reference than some drunken exhibit, or a wet tee shirt contest. They are responding honestly to what they perceive as what is going on in the pics and in some of those pics it is going on. It is all good. This is better than tunblr stolen shots attempting to be natural. These are natural bodies. These are peers.

It is up to us to educate when we see it. Those comments are an opportunity, not a problem.
Jbee
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 05:12:52 AM by jbeegoode »
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jbeegoode

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2019, 04:41:13 AM »
1.) Over at the "fear of nudity" thread, There was a comment about critical mass in social revolution, or cultural change. I was talking about influences that a sub-culture can make on the mass culture.

I compared it to a wave and a beach. The strength creating the wave, how steep the embankment, how easy the water can seep into the sand.

We were discussing the 60's influence and the change the "hippies" made as an example.

Back then, we were seeing a war with a support from WWII mindset, a culture of defense and a military industrial complex as the steep bank on the beach.  We pushed through to make passable long hair and individuality to an extent, but also civil rights, change came to women who were still stuck in the 50's and home and subservient, psychotropic drugs, all manner of sissy style, men could have feelings and cry, daddy's daughters having free sex, and many other very steep taboos. Nudity was easy out of the batch.

These days, we have seen homosexuality getting not just a stamp of approval, but protection. Naked is all around, but generally tinged with sex, now. It seems to me that learning that we are just too inhibited about being seen without coverings on a small section of our bodies is a pretty flat slope, a penetrable sand type, and all that is needed is the wake of an exciting boat, a not very big exciting boat. This one should be easy in comparison to the 60's changes.

2.) Desexualization of nude bodies is a key. How to get that behavior in politically correct mode is tricky. Old habits die with difficulty. Women's lib, metoo, psychological professional community (I hear the DSM-?? newest has ceased to define exhibitionism and voyeurism as disorders), people just looking for good clean fun, people in the closet, just wanting to come out could all be allies and boats to latch onto, to up the wake and wave.

3.) I've joined a Meetup group with the intention of scouting and networking to lead DF and me to places and trails that I can visit later naked. I thought to be cautious bringing up nude hiking, but I am forgetting a major point. Most people on the trail are accepting and gracious. They are prime to talk about nude hiking and then body freedom...converts....
I have been sick for nearly two months off and on, sitting in crappy weather that normally belongs in another state, and nailed down to the house. I hope that this spring, I'll be engaging that plan some. Perhaps, when DF goes with her women's group to Morocco.....
Jbee
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 04:50:39 AM by jbeegoode »
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BlueTrain

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2019, 02:06:01 PM »
Even though I have a gay relative by way of my wife and went to their well-attended, including many children, celebration of their marriage (not the wedding, though, which they chose to keep small because of logistical difficulties), I wouldn't say that homosexuality has received a stamp of approval in spite of what you see on television. It isn't a problem for me, though, because I have not yet received the power to approve of disapprove. Mox nix.

Without having looked at the link a second time, the impression remains that nudism is a young adult activity, with emphasis on 'adult.'
Of course, posting photos of nude children would be a terrible no-no, even if you make the claim that children are natural nudists. Yes, the photos are posed. That's what usually happens when photos are taken. That doesn't create any falsehoods. There is undoubtedly a sexual element to the photos, though, which would probably be present even if everyone were wearing swimwear. Sexual attraction is normal, like it or not, which begs the question, can nudity be non-sexual. Given what many people look like, no doubt about it. But good luck with desexualizing human bodies, clothed or unclothed. The idea here, I think, is to get public nudity acceptable, if not with a stamp of approval, at least in naturally appropriate places at first. Which would be the beach, swimming pools and possibly gyms. As you know, gym or gymnasium derives ultimately from the Greek word meaning naked. There used to be something called gymnosophy, which of late has been trampled under the banner of body acceptance.

Let yourself go.

Naturistplace

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2019, 09:59:01 PM »
I'm going to suggest that many women post nude photos on more sexually oriented sites.   Maybe "non-sexual" naturism isn't sexy enough to get women to post photos.

[deletions]

I haven't made any attempt to count the number of sites and women but it appears to be a never ending stream of women who want to show off.

[deletions]

What @Naturistplace observed about  Australians is that all those women seem to just want to show off.   It may take more sexual content to get women excited.  Maybe ordinary nudism is too boring. 

This may be entirely wrong, but there is a never ending stream of naked women on amateur porn sites.  Far more than on nude sites.   What do you guys think?

"I'm going to suggest that many women post nude photos on more sexually oriented sites.   Maybe "non-sexual" naturism isn't sexy enough to get women to post photos."

It's not always easy to figure out who posts the pictures on the "sexually oriented sites". Could be the women themselves or whoever took the picture. In any case, there's not much doubt about the orientation of most visitors to such sites. Likewise - surprise - many men, too, "post nude photos on more sexually oriented sites". Not much doubt about the orientation of visitors to those sites either.

And in any case, the site originally under discussion was a non-sexual naturist site (a particular Instagram account). Unless, that is, one considers any pictures of naked people to be "sexual". Should either women or men be under suspicion of... something... for letting their pictures be there? Or for not letting their pictures be there? The ratio was close to 50-50 after all. Or is it only the women whose pictures are there that are under suspicion? So confusing...

"I haven't made any attempt to count the number of sites and women but it appears to be a never ending stream of women who want to show off."

Women often make the point, and I think it's valid, that there are questions frequently raised (or merely wondered about) regarding how they dress and their possible motives. There was a news story just yesterday about the Governor of Michigan (a woman). In response to news reports about the way she had been dressed for an official government speech, she tweeted "Boys have teased me about my curves since 5th grade." What prompted this was a report about comments on social media that said things like “she’s showing off her cans” and “I’d hit it.” The point here is that women continually have to put up with questions raised about their intentions for dressing the way they do - even if it's well within norms, let alone in a naturist context.

"What @Naturistplace observed about  Australians is that all those women seem to just want to show off.   It may take more sexual content to get women excited.  Maybe ordinary nudism is too boring."

I don't think I made any such observation "that all those women seem to just want to show off". I did say the pictures were "lighthearted and humorous". I also said the women had "the intention of their picture being shown". I. e., they expected and thought it was good for the picture to be shown - because it displays an approval of nudity, not exhibitionism. (Naturists are too often accused of the latter.) Interpreting that as "showing off" might be an example of the point I made just above. And the pictures in question were in a nudist/naturist context. Which contradicts the notion that "ordinary nudism is too boring" for the women. But it seems that women get criticized no matter what.

"there is a never ending stream of naked women on amateur porn sites.  Far more than on nude sites"

Huh? "naked women on amateur porn sites"? What a surprise. There are also a lot of naked women at strip clubs too. Imagine that! Now, if you substitute "men" for "women" the same things are true. It's just that the audiences are different. And are there naked women on "nude sites" (naturist I presume)? The complaint I see most often (from naturists) is that the pictures at such sites are mostly of women. It seems - again - that women get criticized no matter what.


« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 10:31:15 PM by Naturistplace »

Bob Knows

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2019, 10:36:18 PM »
Women often make the point, and I think it's valid, that there are questions frequently raised (or merely wondered about) regarding how they dress and their possible motives. There was a news story just yesterday about the Governor of Michigan (a woman). In response to news reports about the way she had been dressed for an official government speech, she tweeted "Boys have teased me about my curves since 5th grade."


You are right.  Its a valid question.  Even the Governor is apparently still deliberately dressing to raise questions.  Human psychology is very complex, and the motives of females are not well understood. 


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Naturistplace

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2019, 07:52:30 PM »
Even the Governor is apparently still deliberately dressing to raise questions.  Human psychology is very complex.

"Human psychology is very complex."

Yes, absolutely.

"the motives of females are not well understood."

Yes, again. But that's exactly as true of the motives of males. Females and males are equally human. The psychologies of both are equally complex and difficult to understand.

That said, isn't it a problem to assume that all (or most) females have similar motives even in the narrow sphere of naturism? And equally a problem regarding the motives of males?

Best way to proceed? I'd say that would be to consider the varying motives (and fears and other relevant factors) of people in general with respect to naturism. That's what makes promoting naturism tricky - the message has to be tailored for different cases. (Including many where the conclusion is "don't bother".) And if one simply wants to enjoy naturism without promoting it to others, that's fine too (as long as you're satisfied with your current options).

jbeegoode

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2019, 09:39:54 PM »
I've been thinking about women's liberation, today. For a woman to be truly liberated, her humanity must also be liberated. There comes a point where a woman's issues become the same as issues faced by both genders. It follows that a truly liberated woman must be liberated from not only sexist men's affronts, but women's sexist affronts. This thing about the Governor of Michigan brings this back to my mind.

Here, we are discussing nudity and sexualization of the entire species. There are double standards to consider. Men's breasts are free, innocuous. Women's are sexualized, deemed obscene, judged to a standard of beauty, even criticized for not upholding those standards of beauty. The owner is discounted and even dismissed for breast, they can be the wrong look, they can be "exposed" instead of just seen, and that act alone can eliminate the owner, define the owner, have the owner rejected in several ways. Showing too much, or too little can make or break a career in a moment, it still can be used by, or against a Governor.

In the early 1970's there was a period when liberation from the shackles of a bra put an end to much of this. Bras were publicly burned  in protest and rebellion from status quo structures. It was empowering. It was a symbolic statement of defiance. It was a liberation. Women's breast were okayed in any size and shape. Women were proud and accepted their natural beauty, whether they jiggled as she walked, or were evident when the lady bent over and they separated from her blouse. It was body acceptance. The nipple was pushing out it was a fact of life. Where I lived, they were so prevalent, that they became a norm. Nipples were a curiosity, not so much a sexual titillation. Women and men were both celebrating female breasts. Who before had seen so many, who could know that such fascinating  variety could exist? Women lost their fears and shame for not having huge bullets like the movies. Nobody stuffed their bras anymore. Nobody had to hide, or to lie. I remember young women, proudly, defiantly coming out without Kleenex in their bras for the first time and defiantly stating, "No more." That was a cool thing to do.

Still there was a persistence of ideal bodies. Men and women had to compete for the attentions of desirable mates. Still, there was the lack of liberation of the bottom and genitals that both sexes had to deal with. Still, there was law and social confinement and shame.

It was a step, a powerful step, toward full body liberation and social equality of genders. With such news making bravado and context changing, revolutionary change, it worked. I would like to see nudity hitch a ride on another humanity liberating bandwagon. A woman, or a man who has to hide her, or his body, for all of the wrong reasons, is not free, will not be equal and is in fact dehumanized in more than just a physical context.

The thing was...somewhere, somebody crapped out. Women, who should have been leading us further, chickened out. Bras, shame and subjugation are still here. Women felt as sex objects again with their breast freed. They seemed to forget what it symbolized to dump bras. A woman in business, or career, wanted to be sexless. She didn't feel taken seriously by being any kind of sexy. She stopped celebrating her humanity, because she denigrated her body and the nature of sexuality.

They are breasts, it's just a body, take a look and get over your curiosity, so we can move on.


What I'm thinking today, is women can't be liberated, they can't be equals, unless we all are liberated, from social and legal coersions   and attitudes and habits. By self awareness. It will be confusing and messy. It will take extremes before balance to shake down our silliness.
Jbee
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BlueTrain

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2019, 11:20:15 PM »
It might be said that none of us will be truly free until we cease to be attracted to other people. Only then will bodies and how they look be important. Unless we become anchorite hermits, that will only happen when we no longer recognize another person as being male or female, young or old and even clothed or unclothed.