Author Topic: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism  (Read 1947 times)

Naturistplace

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2019, 11:59:11 PM »
It might be said that none of us will be truly free until we cease to be attracted to other people. Only then will bodies and how they look be important. Unless we become anchorite hermits, that will only happen when we no longer recognize another person as being male or female, young or old and even clothed or unclothed.

Going a bit too far there, no? How about we take a middle way, and start teaching kids from an early age that sex and attraction to the (opposite or same) sex are perfectly OK - BUT, just as with other impulses (e. g. greed, hatred, anger, etc.), learning when and how it is acceptable to express them is very important. Parents, schools, popular media, etc. all need to get on the same page about this. Probably no human societies have quite accomplished this yet. (Just read the daily news.) However, it's a bit less drastic than everyone becoming hermits (and so ending the species entirely).

jbeegoode

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2019, 02:10:52 AM »
Yup, golden rule, is something done with the heart. It is genuinely caring about others. Pretty simple fundamental stuff actually. Who can't get that and why?
Jbee
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BlueTrain

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2019, 12:31:39 PM »
I made my hermit comments because of the different reactions within this thread about the original linked article. Between this thread, other threads and comments on other forums,  there are both dubious claims about nudism and a considerable amount of denials about it, too. The middle way is apparently very narrow.

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm all for nudity and I won't even say "when appropriate." That's for everyone else to decide. But I think there needs to be something beyond "because it feels good" for public nudity to be more acceptable. Then again, maybe not. I have lived in Germany and found it to be a fairly conservative place, although I base that on not Germany as a whole but only on where I actually live, plus where my daughter also lived in another part of the country. Yet not only was Germany where nudism (as we think of it) "invented" (as a concept) but is also a place where many beaches allow nudity. That would be on the Baltic and the North Seas (so bring a sweater). So how come?

Safebare

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2019, 08:28:04 PM »
BT, I'm not sure what question you are asking. Why would a conservative culture support nude recreation? I don't think it has anything to do with conservative or liberal leanings. I think today's political climate has eroded those terms beyond recognition anyway. I think you will find several on this board who identify as conservative, regardless of what it says on their birth certificate ( or voter registration). 😊
There are plenty of reasons to advance nudity in public far beyond 'it feels good'  those are easily found, so I apologize that I don't understand the question.
~Safebare

Bob Knows

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2019, 10:52:33 PM »
BT, I'm not sure what question you are asking. Why would a conservative culture support nude recreation?
~Safebare

In general a "conservative" supposedly supports limited government, less government control of our lives.  Government enforced clothing standards is the antithesis of limited government. 
Human bodies are natural, comfortable, and green.
To see more of Bob you can view his personal photo page
http://www.photos.bradkemp.com/greenbare.html

BlueTrain

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2019, 10:55:30 PM »
I think you understand the question when you said why does a conservative culture support nude recreation, or at least tolerate it.  Perhaps we don't understand the cultures that well and, anyway, it seems like they can change overnight, like the wind. After all, there is conservative and there is reactionary. I suppose it is possible to maintain the same political stance, so to speak, and find yourself in a different place on the scale, depending on where the two ends are at any given time. It isn't a straight line. It's more like a horseshoe magnet, with the two opposite ends quite close to one another. A true conservative minds his own business.

Sometimes I identify as a conservative (I voted for Nixon) but it doesn't mention my political affiliation on my voter ID card and naturally it doesn't on my birth certificate. I do not, however, identify as either democrat or republican. I'm not so sure I identify as a nudist, either, for that matter.

jbeegoode

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2019, 05:50:28 AM »
BT, I'm not sure what question you are asking. Why would a conservative culture support nude recreation?
~Safebare

In general a "conservative" supposedly supports limited government, less government control of our lives.  Government enforced clothing standards is the antithesis of limited government.
That could better be a definition of libertarian on a given day. Conservative has connoted conservation. It has connoted conserving old, or traditional ways. It has meant physical conservation. There has been a Victorian and Puritanical need to control influence on nudity law for a long time. That to me would mean that it is a conservative idea to enforce clothing mandatory laws. But, I also take your point well.

So Bob, I'd not be quick to put a conservative label on body freedom. The movement and lifestyle is notoriously filled with liberals, socialists, conservatives, etc. You and I are on two extreme ends of many political issues, but we both are firmly opposed to these laws and we're both entrenched in the lifestyle and spirit of it all. So, we are apparently sitting on a very wide base. There are all types of people that would support what we are wanting to see spread into mainstream culture and get the nudity restrictions off of our backs.

This tells me that we have latent power to make change.
Jbee
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jbeegoode

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2019, 06:32:26 AM »
Getting on track, we attempting to have a discussion about how to bring revolutionary change to American sociability, at least something. We are also discussing in this thread how to fit this in to a global scale and catch up with European victories and promote more change everywhere. We're strategizing a body freedom revolution.

So far, we are have discussed/brainstormed:

Using Instagram to get images of lifestyle out.
Ageism splitting up the naturist population and nude activities.
How to deal with the pollution from sexualized attitudes disrupting naturist presentations on line and in the media.
How to get viral recognition.
Incrementalism.
Young people seeing naturist doing things that they can identify with.
The ingrained psychology of our own selves. The sexuality inherent in human beings and how it gets into naturism.
Idealistic beauty standards.
Networking meetup activities.
Getting to critical mass.
The influence of more radical sub-cultures on mass cultures as a general history in social change.
Women’s psychology and naturists issues.
Hitching a ride on other bandwagons, such as women’s rights and gender equality.
Are we dealing with a conservative opposition, or not?
The usable base available in support of nude liberties.

What anyone have to add to any of these discussions, topic, or further strategies?
Jbee



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BlueTrain

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2019, 01:14:41 PM »
Very good post. I agree with most of the points.

There might be some problems in connection with "hitching a ride on other bandwagons." This is sometimes a problem with other causes. The difficulty lies with deciding how big an umbrella you want to share, in a manner of speaking. For example, would you want the issue of legal nude beaches somehow connected with gay issues? The issue of public nudity is problematic enough as it is. With every additional issue tacked on, you risk losing supporters. It does not follow that someone who supports the idea of a nude beach supports any other progressive or liberal issue. Likewise, I'm not so sure that radical sub-cultures make the difference that is often suggested. While they may have an effect on the general culture, they themselves remain a sub-culture.

I'm not so sure that idealized beauty standards make any difference whatsoever.

Something that is missing here (and which I am unable to add) is the history of beach nudity in Europe. I think there might be something available somewhere on the internet about the history of Cap d'Agde in the south of France and the Ile du Levant, which mayor may not be helpful, but next to nothing about how it came to be that all (or nearly all) beaches in Denmark are either nude or "topless," likewise for the beaches in Germany.  They were unlikely to have always been like that but they presumably did eventually, somehow. It might be useful to know. I realize there are vast cultural differences, not the least of which is the fact that Americans are much more diverse than Europe is or has been. And besides, circumstances there may not quite be what we have been led to believe. On that point, it would be interesting to hear the observations of the Europeans who contribute here. What is the Costa del Clyde like in high summer, for instance?

All that of course is only about beaches. As far as I know, with the exceptions noted, that is about all that public nudity in Europe involves.


jbeegoode

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2019, 01:23:56 AM »
Blue train, when the issue of nudity is tagged with half the population, it has to be good. Otherwise we are just a small group that has to be active enough to move opinion of satggering size and difficulty.

"Likewise, I'm not so sure that radical sub-cultures make the difference that is often suggested. While they may have an effect on the general culture, they themselves remain a sub-culture."
The thing here is not to get everybody naked, but normalize free nudity, and then the spectrum of who adapts nudity will range from public nudity to "no big deal, just a body, but I'll stay in my costume." We won't all become nudist. That's okay.

I have no idea what that last paragraph and bit that you wrote means. :o

Idealized Beauty standards are a major reason that people wear clothes and get addicted to clothing. It is why people feel uncomfortable with themselves. This has to be addressed. It is a huge part what the liberation is about. It is a great injustice.
Jbee
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 02:57:58 AM by jbeegoode »
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jbeegoode

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2019, 01:32:38 AM »
In addendum to the above and the list, I might add letter writing campaigns. We can watch the internet and contradict comments after articles and troll websites, but here is an additional strategy.

The example is the article on this other thread, here: http://freerangenaturism.com/forum/index.php?topic=1222.0

“Government Shut Down -- New Freedoms” is the thread name in the FR section.

Here is a positive spin on free range hiking. The author and the editors need to get over twenty encouraging responses to the article, leads to additional information or stories.
 
The got it correct and need the reinforcement. They need response to encourage them to write and place m more positive nude stuff in the paper. We need to write anytime we see this stuff. We need to write when we are shown these things here.
Jbee
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Naturistplace

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2019, 04:36:17 AM »
Getting on track, we attempting to have a discussion about how to bring revolutionary change to American sociability, at least something. We are also discussing in this thread how to fit this in to a global scale and catch up with European victories and promote more change everywhere. We're strategizing a body freedom revolution.

[deletions]

What anyone have to add to any of these discussions, topic, or further strategies?
Jbee

There really are many avenues naturists can explore to improve the public acceptance of naturism - and to encourage others to try it.

For example, it would help a lot if there were many more opportunities to be naked when doing "ordinary" things (outside one's home). Things like yoga, many sports (bowling, swimming, running, etc.), hiking, camping, gardening, using public beaches, body painting, attending theatrical performances, visiting museums, etc., etc. But the problem is how to help this happen. I don't really have good general ideas - except to start with efforts to increase the number of naturists. The more there are, the higher the demand for such things.

The biggest problem for naturists right now, in my opinion, is that they are too small a portion of the general population to have "critical mass". There are several problems as a result of this. One is the too low probability a naturist will be friends with - or even know of - another naturist, who's close enough to enjoy naturism with on a frequent basis. (Outside of immediate family, perhaps.) For the same reason, there will be few people nearby who aren't naturists but know of one or more naturists and don't disapprove of the lifestyle. The probability is even lower that there are naturists or potential naturists who may be seen almost daily (for instance because they work in the same place). This limits the number of people who might be persuaded to try naturism. Another problem is that other naturists who one knows may live so far away that opportunities for enjoying naturism together are limited.

There's some evidence that opportunities for enjoying naturism are directly related to the overall population density in a given region. For instance, the population density in England (excluding Scotland and Wales), is over a thousand per square mile. That's 10 times the population density of, say, Texas. So, any other factors aside, a naturist in England is about 10 times more likely to know other naturists or potential naturists than a naturist in Texas. And in fact, the average naturist in England has about 3 times more clubs or resorts to visit conveniently than a naturist in Texas. The travel time is also a lot shorter. (This is based on less than exact data on the number of available clubs, but is still a reasonable estimate.) Texas naturists would be at even a greater disadvantage, except that their climate is much more favorable for outdoor naturism than that of English naturists. So the availability of clubs and resorts is somewhat more likely. I've compared other U. S. states to England and found similar results. (The population density in the U. S. as a whole is even less than in Texas.) Note that this situation also affects free range naturists, not just those who visit clubs.

The conclusion that I draw from these observations is that individual naturists need to expend more effort to encourage people they know who might enjoy naturism to actually try it, in order to correct the insufficient "critical mass".

How much more effort is required? I don't know. Those of us who bother to discuss these things seriously online are doing more than the average naturist. However, I think that the effort required is, minimally, to discuss the subject with others who might be persuaded to try naturism - preferably one-on-one. That is more than just discussing the topic with other naturists.

Naturistplace

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2019, 07:56:55 AM »
Here is one very small thing you and anyone you know could do to help naturism. There's a petition started by the Tampa Area Naturists to request approval for more naturist use of area beaches.

Just go to tinyurl.com/tandip

You can choose to be anonymous (if you wish). You'll also be asked for a contribution, but you can politely decline. I generally don't think petitions like this accomplish very much, but it's worth a shot. If all local naturist groups did this sort of thing, it would bring more attention to naturism. This group wants 10,000 signatures, and they already have 9,879.

You could ask friends to sign, even if they aren't naturists. It would be one way to start a discussion with them on the subject.

Haulover Beach in Miami has been a noteworthy success for 25 years.

Here's a brief description:

Quote
Tampa Area Naturists (TAN – TANFL.com ), in alliance with B.E.A.C.H.E.S. Foundation Institute (beachesfoundation.org - the non-profit organization co-mentoring Haulover Beach with South Florida Free Beaches – sffb.com ) and its 25-year Tallahassee government affairs firm, Maury Management, seeks to replicate the successes at Haulover Beach in Miami and Blind Creek Beach in Fort Pierce where strong family values, amenities, parking and Beach Ambassadors are the norm.  To re-establish naturist use at Florida State Park beaches, starting with Honeymoon Island near Tampa, TAN needs YOUR immediate support and signing of our petition!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 07:58:53 AM by Naturistplace »

John P

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2019, 11:12:40 AM »
I think the question to ask here is "How many people do you know personally?" Maybe that number is higher in a densely populated country (or part of a country) than a less dense one. But maybe we'd limit the number of people we need to deal with, if there were a very high number of them around. Has this been studied by sociologists? It sounds quite interesting.

Personally, I live in one of the most densely populated parts of the United States, New England. And in fact I do have a fair number of naturist acquaintances, mostly people I've met at Naturist Society gatherings and their friends. We've got a local naturist hiking group that spends a week together every year, and we've got connections elsewhere--people that some of us met on the nude Grand Canyon rafting trips, for instance. Now I'm over here in New Zealand with two guys from our group, plus one more from Germany, whom we met on a previous Naked European Walking Tour. I'm going to claim that we're pretty well linked! If there are people out there who simply don't know any other naturists, I wonder if they've actually gone out and done much.

nuduke

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2019, 07:15:25 PM »

Naturistplace,


I think each of your points is very well made.
Part of our problem is that there are few activities outside the naturist enclaves such as those you list in your 1st point.  Naked audience in a theatre performance is an interesting one.  It might test how many closet naturists there are out there on a local basis to each theatre.  We have seen in recent years the popularity of WNBR, naked restaurants and the work of Spencer Tunick brining together hundreds of naked people.  Proves there are more of us out there than BN or ANA can actually count!  And yes again, this is because the critical mass of people that want to have the right to be naked anywhere is an insufficient critical mass to  drum up a suitable weight of opinion, politics, PR, supporters and protest to create fundamental change in the way society accepts naked people.  And the other key disadvantage that I can see is that we are not a problem and we are not really widely oppressed in society.  So it's not a thing that people feel hurt and angry about so doesn't compete with the serious and weighty issues of acceptance and emancipation that do exist in society and probably rightly take precedence to fix e.g. women's rights and immigration!


Also I do think you are right to correlate population density and naturist opportunity.  Our crowded little isles, despite a fair percentage being rural, the population is spread everywhere even if in small settlements or isolated houses and the road system penetrates everywhere and so in general offer far less isolation than the wide open spaces that, say Jbee and DF have to roam in.



John