Author Topic: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism  (Read 1446 times)

Naturistplace

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2019, 08:56:08 PM »
Even in the few places that are already tolerant of nudity, people can come along and make it harder. That happened in San Francisco in 2012. Why? Simply because some naturists were exercising their rights - and people who didn't like that came along and got the law changed. And it's not just naturist rights that get taken away. Labor rights have been under attack for years. Women's rights (abortion and contraception in particular) are constantly under attack.

Freedom is not free.

As my father used to say,  "Can't never did anything."

We aren't going to get anywhere if we feed each other propaganda and accept it without question, then act as if we're in possession of  complete facts. We did NOT lose our rights in San Francisco because "naturists exercised their rights"! That debacle occurred because men were gathering in a particular location in San Francisco and making sexual displays--I'm referring to penis rings designed to stimulate or simulate an erection. Naturists, at least the Naturist Action Committee, said that this should be dealt with by enforcement of state law against public lewdness. But the local police said they weren't willing to try to make the distinction between lewd nudity and the innocent kind. So the city passed a law againt nudity, and that dealt with the problem. We had a chance to denounce the people who were our enemies in this case, and we failed to do it. Now some of us are falsifying the situation after the event.

Time after time, we've lost naturist venues when they were used for sexual activity. We seem to be very reluctant to make an honest assement of what's occuring, and clearly identify the people who are costing us our rights. It's got to change.

Yes, let's by all means not be "falsifying the situation" and not "feed each other propaganda and accept it without question, then act as if we're in possession of complete facts." That would be shameful. But sadly, some of us are still singing the same lugubrious, oh-poor-me ballad that seems to be all they know but doesn't recognize the simple truth: Naturists are too few and too weakly organized to defend their own rights. Thanks for providing an opportunity to face that unfortunate issue.

Naturists will always have enemies. Those include economic interests who fear that naturists will harm their profits or their property values, religious pressure groups that hate all nudity, law enforcement agencies always desirous to avoid making reasonable distinctions, legislators who listen only to the squeakiest wheels, politicians who need a "moral" issue to campaign on, and exhibitionists who make themselves the flashpoint for problems that are seized upon by.all of our other enemies as excuses to pursue their real agenda - which is suppressing nudity of any sort. Fighting all such enemies takes significant resources and people willing to support the effort.

Mark Haskell Smith in his book reports on his interview with Scott Wiener, the ambitious, gay politician who led the effort to curtail naturist rights in San Francisco. Smith makes several salient points. Wiener's legislation was broader than it needed to be. It passed by just a single vote. Many on the board of supervisors objected strongly to the proposal. But, as Smith points out, "other members of the board of supervisors, notably from tourist-heavy districts like Fisherman's Wharf, supported the ban." These latter folks made the difference, but weren't directly impacted by what the exhibitionists were doing. They simply didn't want naked people coming into their territory and scaring away the tourists.

Naturists need to face the reality that no amount of strong denunciations of one tiny portion of our enemies will be enough to protect our rights. That's not how politics works. When one side loses a political battle, it's because that side is the weaker one. There need to be more real naturists actively defending their rights. They must fight so that any legislation is sufficiently narrowly designed to target the actual problem. And they must recognize and call out all of the enemies of naturist rights, not just a few rather addlepated exhibitionists.

That is what must happen if we really and truly "make an honest assement of what's occuring, and clearly identify the people who are costing us our rights".

jbeegoode

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2019, 04:15:52 AM »
The way the political process works is not that laws get changed because "it's the right thing to do". In most jurisdictions, public nudity (in a local park or even in your own yard) just isn't legal. There are either specific statutes about this (state or local), or public nudity is automatically considered "indecent exposure". So in almost all cases it's necessary either to change existing laws, or else get a new law that clarifies the legality of public nudity.

And getting any political action of this kind requires convincing anything from a local council to the state legislature to do something that probably won't be politically popular. There are almost certain to be people who object to such a change. They may even be few in number but they will do their best to stop any changes that make nudity more tolerated. Guaranteed.

It's just dreaming to think that things will get better for naturism without a lot of effort of some kind or other. Didn't happen with civil rights or gay rights or women's rights or labor rights or almost any other sort of rights you can think of. And it won't happen any more easily for naturist rights either.

Even in the few places that are already tolerant of nudity, people can come along and make it harder. That happened in San Francisco in 2012. Why? Simply because some naturists were exercising their rights - and people who didn't like that came along and got the law changed. And it's not just naturist rights that get taken away. Labor rights have been under attack for years. Women's rights (abortion and contraception in particular) are constantly under attack.

Freedom is not free.


I'm looking for solutions, something fresh. One reason that I brought up gays is that they were once more abhorrent and despised and persecuted than we have been. All of that changed. We are up against the same forces, the same power, the same players. We are people without clothing, same as everyone else. We aren't so different. Gay culture and practices are much different from them. Many identify with us, many haven't given it thought yet, many are in a closet. I know that I'm not just dreaming here. Change can happen, but yes it will take some doing, putting together plans of action and acting on them.

 Nothing ever changed without attitude. Nothing is assessed, yet. John P. is correct, the data isn't in. The talk hasn't even begun to start, let alone plan and action. If gays can do it, then we can do it.

I'm adding that battles must be chosen. Armies must be trained. Plans must be set and studied. Preparation. Where are they vulnerable, etc. San Fran with a small group of reactionaries protesting and being angry and outrageous wasn't the best situation. Being confrontational and pushing it with cock rings was stupid. Doing all of that without a game plan, just pushing it, nobody confronting the lewd behavior. It was doomed. They caused it. Martinez did the same thing.

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« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 04:39:30 AM by jbeegoode »
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John P

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2019, 11:03:02 AM »
JBG, you don't seem to be geting this. The people who did the damage in San Francisco weren't naturists in any sense, confrontational or not--they were exhibitionists. The state of the law allowed them to show their penis rings in public, and that's what they did. When their rights were taken away along with everyone else's, they stopped. We can say what we want to about that city law, but it accomplished its purpose.

Now Naturistplace, you evidently have some knowledge about the San Francisco events, so why did you talk about "naturists exercising their rights"? If there's some strategy that calls for us to pass false information around, maybe you can explain it.

I claim that the best thing we can do is bring attention to any problems that occur on the fringes of nudism, which usually means someone acting out sexually. We shouldn't be hesitant about demanding a stop to this stuff! If we don't, we'll make it seem as if the people looking for sexual thrills are part of our movement, and that where we go, they'll be going too. We'll never get public support that way.

Naturistplace, I want to agree with your statement "And they must recognize and call out all of the enemies of naturist rights, not just a few rather addlepated exhibitionists." If there were other people causing trouble in San Francisco, then certainly naturists should have denounced them too! I agree that the exhibitionists were a pretty crazy bunch, but they led to this sad loss, and my recollection from that time is that naturists couldn't find much to say about it, which I think was a mistake. Whoever is doing us harm, we should say clearly what the problem is.

Naturistplace

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2019, 09:49:17 PM »
JBG, you don't seem to be geting this. The people who did the damage in San Francisco weren't naturists in any sense, confrontational or not--they were exhibitionists. The state of the law allowed them to show their penis rings in public, and that's what they did. When their rights were taken away along with everyone else's, they stopped. We can say what we want to about that city law, but it accomplished its purpose.

Now Naturistplace, you evidently have some knowledge about the San Francisco events, so why did you talk about "naturists exercising their rights"? If there's some strategy that calls for us to pass false information around, maybe you can explain it.

I claim that the best thing we can do is bring attention to any problems that occur on the fringes of nudism, which usually means someone acting out sexually. We shouldn't be hesitant about demanding a stop to this stuff! If we don't, we'll make it seem as if the people looking for sexual thrills are part of our movement, and that where we go, they'll be going too. We'll never get public support that way.

Naturistplace, I want to agree with your statement "And they must recognize and call out all of the enemies of naturist rights, not just a few rather addlepated exhibitionists." If there were other people causing trouble in San Francisco, then certainly naturists should have denounced them too! I agree that the exhibitionists were a pretty crazy bunch, but they led to this sad loss, and my recollection from that time is that naturists couldn't find much to say about it, which I think was a mistake. Whoever is doing us harm, we should say clearly what the problem is.

"so why did you talk about "naturists exercising their rights"?"

That's a good place to start. It's simple. The key controversy in 2012 was about people who were going naked in San Francisco's Jane Warner Plaza and places nearby. I don't know the exact details since all my information is second hand. But what I believe is that some of these people were simply naked, which is completely naturist, and was completely legal at that place and time. Some other people were not only naked but also behaving lewdly. That's of course not naturist, and wasn't legal under California law either. I don't know whether or not the latter people claimed to be naturists, but they certainly weren't, and no legitimate naturist would condone the lewdness. Those who weren't behaving lewdly were absolutely, positively exercising their rights.

As is always the case, the news media and the general public have only vague conceptions of the finer distinctions. Could those who were simply naked have somehow stopped the behavior of those who were lewd? Only someone who knew the people involved could, realistically, answer that.

Although the people who were behaving lewdly were the proximate cause of the problem, it escalated the way it did because of many other actors with their own selfish interests who got a city law passed that banned all nudity (with certain specific exceptions). People like that, in my opinion, are the real enemies of naturism we need to focus on. This includes people who just don't like nudity at all, or think it hurts their financial interests, or are in law enforcement and don't want the responsibility to make tricky decisions about what is or is not "lewd", as California law requires (even though it's their job to do that).

What should naturists be doing about this kind of problem? In my opinion, it's short-sighted to think that just strongly denouncing people who behave lewdly is sufficient to address the problem. Ideally, there would be enough naturists in the population to actively curtail lewd behavior that could reflect badly on naturists who aren't being lewd. That's what happens at successful nude beaches like Haulover.

So my conclusion is that the real long-term solution is: More Naturists. That will make much more possible than simply curtailing lewd behavior. It will also - most importantly - make it possible to politically oppose people who insist, for their own selfish reasons, on passing or defending laws against naturist nudity.

This is precisely the strategy that succeeded for gay rights. Although there weren't actually more people who were gay, the result of so many gay people "coming out" was that the public perception of the real number changed significantly. 

"If there's some strategy that calls for us to pass false information around, maybe you can explain it."

If you are implying that was a strategy I advocated, that is insulting, and I expect an apology.

"We shouldn't be hesitant about demanding a stop to this stuff!"

You can make demands until you're blue in the face. Perhaps this makes you feel better and more righteous, but as a strategy it flops. Political action is the only thing that eventually makes a significant difference. This is what NAC is set up for, but it's limited by the rather meager amount of financial and other support it gets from the naturist community. Maybe if there were More Naturists....

An example of significant successful naturist political action may be British Naturism's efforts with regard to British laws on naturism and nudity. I haven't studied this closely, but my impression is that advocacy on behalf of naturism by BN resulted in a more lenient approach to nudity in British law. Here's a document that spells out the current situation: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/nudity-public-guidance-handling-cases-naturism If this had been applied in the San Francisco case, the outcome would have been much better.

"Whoever is doing us harm, we should say clearly what the problem is."

I completely agree with that - with strong emphasis on the "whoever" part. That includes far more than just a few crazy exhibitionists.

jbeegoode

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2019, 10:28:08 PM »
JBG, you don't seem to be geting this. The people who did the damage in San Francisco weren't naturists in any sense, confrontational or not--they were exhibitionists. The state of the law allowed them to show their penis rings in public, and that's what they did. When their rights were taken away along with everyone else's, they stopped. We can say what we want to about that city law, but it accomplished its purpose.

Aux contrarie (picture Bugs Bunny with a carrot in hand): I saw penis rings in some pictures, not on all bodies, but never saw any mention of them, or erections.

I must say that I didn't realize that they were for erectile dysfunction and half a dozen kinds are sold at Walmart! I thought that they were for enhancement and some kind of notion of jewelry.

The ban was nudity, not mentioning cockrings. Have you seen the videos of Gyps Taub standing on the lectern and tables shouting at the council members? She was our defense as far as I know. I don't see me describing the nude people as naturists, just reactionaries.

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John P

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2019, 11:38:39 AM »
JBG, I don’t know what you mean when you use the word “reactionary”. My understanding of it in political or social discussion is that it refers to someone who wants to restore a former system of government or state of society, and you seem to mean something else.

It’s a valid point to suggest that politics will help us achieve naturist goals. But then again, naturist rights were lost via the political process in San Francisco, after the business owners in the Castro district requested action to remove the exhibitionists, and Scott Wiener (the Board of Supervisors member for that district) responded. At the time, I asked on other naturist boards if there were any naturists in San Francisco who could speak for our side of the issue, but there wasn’t much response. I don’t think the Naturist Action Committee achieved anything by suggesting that the police could enforce existing laws against lewdness; the police basically said it wasn’t a problem that they cared to solve. As far as I know, Gypsy Taub wasn’t involved then, and since she did join the struggle, she’s acted the part of a clown rather than a useful advocate. I’ve seen videos of her in action, and she looks pathetic, a lone naked woman ranting, while nobody listens.

Naturistplace, maybe in the blogging world you’re used to saying whatever you want and having a veto over whatever anyone says in response. Out in an open forum, you’re responsible for getting your facts right and defending what you say, if you can. You’ve made it clear that you did know about the role of exhibitionists in the San Francisco defeat, yet you chose to describe the situation differently. I’d still like to know why you did that. “You’re offending me” isn’t much of an explanation.

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2019, 01:53:21 PM »
Quote
Some other people were not only naked but also behaving lewdly. That's of course not naturist, and wasn't legal under California law either. I don't know whether or not the latter people claimed to be naturists, but they certainly weren't, and no legitimate naturist would condone the lewdness. Those who weren't behaving lewdly were absolutely, positively exercising their rights.

Same old problem - the few spoil it for the many.

The onlookers - local businesses, Mr Wiener, casual tourists, frightened parents etc - just saw naked people and judged all by those they found most outrageous. What else would you expect?

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jbeegoode

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2019, 08:29:50 PM »
JBG, I don’t know what you mean when you use the word “reactionary”. My understanding of it in political or social discussion is that it refers to someone who wants to restore a former system of government or state of society, and you seem to mean something else....

I don't see where I used the term in all of the witting that I have been doing. I just now got tired of looking. I'm sure that I was using the def #4 from Websters, " : the force that a body subjected to the action of a force from another body exerts in the opposite direction"

I wasn't aware that the term is commonly leveled at conservative reactions until looking it up just now.

The definition that I was assuming had to do with "anyone" reacting instead of taking proactive, or planned actions. Sorry for the confusion.
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Naturistplace

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2019, 08:48:00 AM »
Naturistplace, maybe in the blogging world you’re used to saying whatever you want and having a veto over whatever anyone says in response. Out in an open forum, you’re responsible for getting your facts right and defending what you say, if you can. You’ve made it clear that you did know about the role of exhibitionists in the San Francisco defeat, yet you chose to describe the situation differently. I’d still like to know why you did that. “You’re offending me” isn’t much of an explanation.

"you chose to describe the situation differently"

Yes, I chose to describe the situation accurately, but differently from the way this person prefers - because there was much more involved. Apparently that isn't permissible.

This person's arguments (such as they are) are wrong since they focus on only one cause of a particular outcome, The reality in the issue under discussion is that there are a number of causes, several of which I named. The person requested an explanation and was given a very good one, consisting of several different points. I was quite clear, and it's unfortunate he couldn't understand. People, in general, won't understand what they are motivated to not understand.

If this discussion continues, I know how it will go. On one side will be someone who seemingly prefers to write only about men wearing cock rings, even though there are far more serious problems. On the other side there will be rational examination of all the other factors that are relevant here.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 08:51:37 AM by Naturistplace »

jbeegoode

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2019, 08:28:57 PM »
Considering all of the various factors involved, absolutely correct, or not, I presume that it is more complex than news accounts and some video of Taub and her friends, what are the mistakes and how could such a situation be avoided in the future?

Could we set up a model that would more likely win the day? Could we list the shortcomings and the positives and the possibilities and the mistakes made?

One is to distinguish the line between lewd and just nude. This line and the consequences have damaging potential in the UK, when lewd pushes its limits, hiding behind the BN work. It would seem that those rings are of a sexual nature. But then a small G-string could be considered that as well. For that matter, much of fashion is provocative. Handling oneself could be considered sexual. There are many subtle body movements that are confusing to interpret. What is lewd and what isn't? "I know it when I see it" is dangerous.

Anything intentionally drawing attention to the genitals could be interpreted as lewd and so decoration would be lewd? Parades in San Fran are sometimes celebrating sexuality of all sorts, but do we expect that that behavior to be condoned on the street?

Would the line be simply nude, to be simply nude, and then any decoration to be with sexual implications?

What is a judge to do? What is a cop on the street to do? Place the word intent into the law?
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John P

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2019, 10:43:11 AM »
JBG, you're bringing up some difficult issues, but just becasue they're difficult I don't think we should ignore them. Instead I would say we should keep discussion open, and make it clear that naturists do recognize sexual motivation when someone involves it with nudity. (As in San Francisco.) Maybe there's a limit to how far we can take this, but I always like the concept that "Naturists do what everyone else does, only we do it naked." That means we can be just as outraged as anyone else if we see sexuality expressed in public. We can be naturist prudes, even--why not? We've got a right to as many opinions as the  rest of the world!

As for revealing clothing, I do recall hearing a way it related to nudism, though it wasn't recently. The idea was that people play games with clothing (I suppose this means particlarly women's clothing) saying "I'll show you this but not that. It's a tease, not an honest way of dealing with each other. We could say that getting naked brings the game to an end, with no parts hidden and no parts emphasized. I like the direction that this goes in, but maybe it's a little too advanced for the world just at present. It might indeed end up saying the body can be lewd when clothed, but is automatically innocent when naked.

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2019, 01:20:33 PM »
'I'm looking for solutions, something fresh. One reason that I brought up gays is that they were once more abhorrent and despised and persecuted than we have been. All of that changed."

Pardon me for saying so but I think that's the error in your reasoning. It hasn't all changed, not by a long shot. The battles and controversies are more visible and some people are learning to put up with it but I don't think there's been any real change in enough people's attitudes--yet.

Another problem, and I understand the reasons stated somewhere above, is distinguishing between "real" nudists and those who are simply naked. Nobody owns "nudism", not these days, although I imagine the claim could have been made at one time, by who I don't know. It's a little like race. It isn't so much what color or race you are so much as who gets to say what it is. Nobody has to prove the purity of their ancestry back to 1750 to say whatever they are. And if someone says they're a nudist, who's to say otherwise? 

jbeegoode

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2019, 02:30:36 AM »
'I'm looking for solutions, something fresh. One reason that I brought up gays is that they were once more abhorrent and despised and persecuted than we have been. All of that changed."

Pardon me for saying so but I think that's the error in your reasoning. It hasn't all changed, not by a long shot. The battles and controversies are more visible and some people are learning to put up with it but I don't think there's been any real change in enough people's attitudes--yet.

Another problem, and I understand the reasons stated somewhere above, is distinguishing between "real" nudists and those who are simply naked. Nobody owns "nudism", not these days, although I imagine the claim could have been made at one time, by who I don't know. It's a little like race. It isn't so much what color or race you are so much as who gets to say what it is. Nobody has to prove the purity of their ancestry back to 1750 to say whatever they are. And if someone says they're a nudist, who's to say otherwise?
I don't know where you are hanging out. In the media, the law, the outspoken, the coming out, in the high schools, things have come a long long way in a relatively short time for LBGTQ, etc. There are of course still many poepl living with old ingrained standards. 60 years later, there are still people hanging on to racial prejudice and opinions, even in the White House.

I'm not sure if you are referring to that, or attitudes of nudity, however. Could you clarify. We naturists have a long way to go, but we have seen a great deal of progress in many ways.

Paragraph #3: Nudism and naturism is broad and definitions do vary as do subsets of activity
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jbeegoode

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2019, 03:33:13 AM »
JBG, you're bringing up some difficult issues, but just becasue they're difficult I don't think we should ignore them. Instead I would say we should keep discussion open, and make it clear that naturists do recognize sexual motivation when someone involves it with nudity. (As in San Francisco.) Maybe there's a limit to how far we can take this, but I always like the concept that "Naturists do what everyone else does, only we do it naked." That means we can be just as outraged as anyone else if we see sexuality expressed in public. We can be naturist prudes, even--why not? We've got a right to as many opinions as the  rest of the world!

As for revealing clothing, I do recall hearing a way it related to nudism, though it wasn't recently. The idea was that people play games with clothing (I suppose this means particlarly women's clothing) saying "I'll show you this but not that. It's a tease, not an honest way of dealing with each other. We could say that getting naked brings the game to an end, with no parts hidden and no parts emphasized. I like the direction that this goes in, but maybe it's a little too advanced for the world just at present. It might indeed end up saying the body can be lewd when clothed, but is automatically innocent when naked.
"’Naturists do what everyone else does, only we do it naked.’ That means we can be just as outraged as anyone else if we see sexuality expressed in public. We can be naturist prudes, even--why not? We've got a right to as many opinions as the  rest of the world!”
That is the simple message that I think we want to put across, liberation. We are as normal and varied as the rest of the world. We just have lost the hangups of clothing and enjoy being without it. Hey listen you all “We are you but without clothing.” This was a gay strategy. All of these normal people living and working next to everyone else suddenly coming out of the closet. Then the president says, “Don’t matter who you love,” just as m normal as can be.


“As for revealing clothing, I do recall hearing a way it related to nudism, though it wasn't recently. The idea was that people play games with clothing (I suppose this means particlarly women's clothing) saying "I'll show you this but not that. It's a tease, not an honest way of dealing with each other. We could say that getting naked brings the game to an end, with no parts hidden and no parts emphasized. I like the direction that this goes in, but maybe it's a little too advanced for the world just at present. It might indeed end up saying the body can be lewd when clothed, but is automatically innocent when naked.”

We must accept that people will play games. The only antidote to the unhealthy part of this, so far, is self-awareness, and that isn’t changing everyone.

There are sexual games played popularly with clothing, but then there are sexual games played without clothing. There is the move to remove the covering of public hair, taking away curiosity. Just the subtle movement of crossing legs, postures and poses can be alluring or taken sexually, as another example.
 
At a social naturist gathering like a club or resort, these things are readily identifiable. They are shunned generally. Those places are washed out sexually, even prudish, “There are kids here.” “We don’t want people to feel uncomfortable.” We have been discussing this in concern at our sweat. “Nothing sexually provocative.” It is generally easy to figure out, even amongst a crowd filled with hippies, some still thinking in terms of free love. After disrobing, nudity makes people more self-aware in many ways.

This IS confusing. I was just invited to an introduction to investigate a group that is addressing issues of social sexuality and wanting to do something in the larger community. I’m looking into addressing these issues of social nudity and sexuality with these “experts” in the field of sexuality. There is a movement, like in metoo, that is stumbling through civil social interaction in society. All of this tends to be looking at a new social order and better semblance of expectation. What is possible, what is human nature, what works. The host is an old friend, who is new to the nudity thing, but healthy about it, has been to my sweat, loves naturism, has wandered out to Havarock with me. She is also a licensed sex therapist. There should be some entertaining discussion and maybe some revelations. If I am able to swing this, I’ll inform here.
Jbee
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Bob Knows

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Re: Making Naturism Viral - Grassroots Naturism
« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2019, 05:23:12 AM »
The biggest problem holding nudists back from demanding nudist rights are nudists themselves.   Far too many nudists believe and support the anti-nude supposition that people have a "right" not to see a nude person, and that person's prejudice is more important than a nude person's right to be nude.   Gay people won because gay people believed that gay people had a right to be gay.   Not so with far too many nudists.  Even nude organizations such as AANR will only support a right to be naked on private property in "appropriate" locations.  Too many nudists support the other people's supposed "right" not to see and be "offended" by seeing a human body.   The enemy is nudists who won't stand up for nude rights.     
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