Author Topic: On Saving Naturist Literature  (Read 4018 times)

nuduke

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2019, 11:56:09 PM »

It might be nice if ladies participated, too, as well as younger people.
It has always (by 'always' I mean since 2007 when I started corresponding on a naturist forum - 99% TSNS and this one) been a matter of puzzlement why we, who correspond with each other, are such a narrow 'demographic'.  Why almost no women find us and participate is mysterious and unsatisfactory.  There are lots of naturist women corresponding on things like Naturist corner and other more 'clubby' forums, why not here?  We used on TSNS to have a lady called Am that made the odd post and Lisa (Kayaker) used to make the occasional post, after she married Larry Tanman, and whilst DF is aware of us she never posts herself. Even Karla doesn't converse other than rarely and usually related to the business of running the site.

We have had discussions around this too.  Theories abounded about the possibility that women don't do forums as a basic gender difference,  which hypotheses are countered by worldwide active forums like mumsnet, female first and many others, not to mention facebook, twitter and the like.
And there are plenty of women naturists, presumably containing some women that are interested in discussing the practice of naturism and like chatting.

Occasionally a female naturist will sign on, be welcomed, make a post or two and disappear without trace!  Is it that a group of mostly middle aged to old age men corresponding on a forum is an effective repellent to women?  Is it Jbee's moustache or JohnP or Bob's hats that put them off? Who knows.  I have always wished we had a much more gender balanced community but it looks not to be.


I remain your faithful correspondent and somewhat bewildered by being unable to explain why we have virtually no women in the forum.


John

BlueTrain

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2019, 12:20:56 AM »
Maybe this forum is for the more independent-minded individuals. But it's certainly a case of not being able to choose your audience. I wonder how many read (with interest) the posts but never comment?

nuduke

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2019, 12:39:53 AM »

There are 'lurkers' who read us but don't write.  Obviously it's difficult to quantify those people. 
I like your thought that this forum attracts independent minded people.  I would like to think so.
In my, admittedly rather narrow, reading of other naturist forums there does seem to be a degree of conformity in the way people communicate.
Not so with us, happily!
John

jbeegoode

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2019, 09:15:45 AM »
"Jbee's mustache!" ba, ba, but, ...grey? JMF has one, too...Ba-ut there are no pictures of me here....

There are comments by women of all ages where I have pictures...goorsh....
Jbee ;) ;D
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Peter S

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2019, 05:41:56 PM »
But you have let slip pictures of your good self, JBee, on your own website, and unless the pictures have been doctored there is definitely something greyish/whitish lurking above your top lip. I know you try to hide it in the shadows from your hat, but ....
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BlueTrain

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2019, 07:02:15 PM »
Referring to the original question again, I think that the most important thing about having a forum as a record is that it captures the moment, in a manner of speaking, in the same way newspapers do, insofar as they do. In other words, it captures context. How well a forum, this one in particular, does that is another matter. The nature of the forum and how it is organized (that is, how you actually see it on the screen) enters into the matter, too. The truthfulness of the posts is assumed, of course.

When considering historical events and periods, it is difficult to keep in mind the context in which the event occurred or the period in which people lived. Absent that, erroneous conclusions might be reached. On the other hand, it is certainly easy enough for someone who lived through the period, twenty or thirty or more years later, to say something that is entirely untrue. Anytime you hear someone say "everybody knew," beware. Something else to keep in mind is the natural tendency to compress time (which I may have mentioned before) in the past. In nudist circles, if I can put it that way, we forget that people age. They come into the story and eventually leave, though I am not referring to their absence from a forum. All the movers and shakers of nudism I've ever heard of are gone, right down through Lee Baxandall. I don't know who the movers and shakers of today are.

Peter S

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2019, 07:34:28 PM »
 Newspapers like to call themselves the first draft of history. But being in that first draft one often can’t see the forest for the trees. Looking back on events, what were often a cacophony of things going on have resolved themselves with time into an historical crumb-trail, and what seemed almost random happenings can now be seen in their contextual pattern. Of course reinterpretation plays its part and sometimes skews those events into something they weren’t, but maybe the next historical draft will work that one out.
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eyesup

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2019, 01:33:07 AM »
Quote from:  Peter S
Newspapers like to call themselves the first draft of history.
News people have a particularly high opinion of themselves and their occupation. There are fewer and fewer real reporters and journalists actively writing.

Can a newspaper be a navel gazer? So self absorbed that that business entity exemplifies a corporate version of the old saying that “He can’t see past the end of his nose”?

Quote
But being in that first draft one often can’t see the forest for the trees.
Peter, were you tapped into the Spiritus Mundi when that popped out? :D ;) As you read the paper (made from trees) containing  what passes for news these days your wider vision of the world (the forest) is obscured by the symbolic tree?

Nahh! Couldn’t have happened that way! ;D  ;D

The history is written years later and the newspaper is merely one voice in thousands that is mined for the viewpoint it presents. No different than any other voice.

Duane

eyesup

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2019, 01:46:22 AM »
. . . I wonder how many read (with interest) the posts but never comment?
There is a column in the Boards screen that shows - "Replies/Views" for each topic.  Says it all.

Also on the Home Screen, down at the bottom where it shows:

Users Online
_ Guests, _ Users
Users active in past 15 minutes:

Click on the line "_ Guests, _ Users"
You'll see a listing of those lurkers.

Duane
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 01:51:18 AM by eyesup »

BlueTrain

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2019, 11:41:01 AM »
The point about newspapers being made from trees is true but trees are a renewable natural resource. If you happen to live where trees don't grow so well, you may not know that. It is possible to use the trees faster than they can grow but we passed that point a couple of thousand years ago in some places.

There being a journalist in the family, I feel that I should speak up for the news business. It is a business, of course, and newspapers go out of business for various reasons, one of which is competition from other news sources. But much of what passes as news on television and possibly radio, is not news but either entertainment or opinion or editorials. What is printed (not necessarily what you read) is sometimes highly influenced by different things, how much so depending on the content and the newspaper. Most newspapers have always had a slant to the left or right and have generally said so in their masthead. It is true, too, that there are smaller staffs in newsrooms these days, too. Most of the income for newspapers comes from advertising and advertising money these days is swallowed up by television.

News people mostly know what they're talking about, except for irrelevant details, which critics like to jump all over. Critics have their own idea of truth of course and will not be swayed by facts, except for the ones they have created. But sometimes, especially in broadcast journalism, news people talk to one another more than they talk to "sources." So they get surprised now and then. And sometimes what they say falls on deaf ears.

The journalist in the family that I mentioned is my wife's first cousin (one of a grand total of two). He has lived in Egypt, Serbia, Thailand (paradise, he said), Borneo and Afghanistan, where he lives now. He was also imbedded with troops going into Iraq. He knows what he talks about. I recall him sitting in our living room telling us there was going to be a civil war in what was Yugoslavia and there was. So Yugoslavia was the hot spot for a while and he spent some time in Pristina, Kosovo. In fact, that's where he met his wife. But unfortunately, that didn't work out because he was footloose. He was never at home. The family worries that one day he'll come to an end somewhere overseas. He's also written a few books along the way, too. My son, who has never written a book, was also in Iraq for fifteen months and he also knows what he's talking about, at least concerning Iraq. My son-in-law, on the other hand, knows next to nothing about Iraq--he went to Afghanistan.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 12:06:16 PM by BlueTrain »

jbeegoode

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2019, 10:56:23 PM »
I think that it was quite obvious that the people embedded into the Iraq invasion knew little, were directed, limited and propagandized. One side of the issues. They were reduced to little more that like correspondents for Armed Forces news, like "The Stars and Stripes" which was my news source when lived in Paris for two and a half years. Boy was I surprised when I got back to the USA and saw the truth!!!

Smelling burning flesh, watching from a dominate side, protected and seeing staged performances by civilians just isn't comprehensive, balanced, nor authoritative.

I remember guys coming back from Vietnam telling things from one point of view, but saying, "Yea, but I was there, so I know!"

Nothing personal about your relative, please don't take offense. I just recognized BS war propaganda and then the truth coming out later...fake news. Out of 400 interviews going into that war, 4 were anti-war in our media. By the time the invasion happened, the support for Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL) was completely changed. Now, we see the lies that were purposely fed to us.
Jbee
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BlueTrain

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2019, 11:56:17 AM »
It is not at all obvious that so-called imbedded journalists know little. In fact, he was thrown out for mentioning something in an on-air broadcast, which I happened to hear one morning on the way to work. The thing is, which should be obvious, journalists are allowed to take sides. It isn't like they don't care who wins. Is that the way it should be? Of course it is. Truth is what you want it to be. Wars can be won by propaganda. Usually, however, they're won by being willing to fight longer than the other side, assuming you don't run out of ammunition. Nothing personal but I am assuming you're on our side. It makes all the difference.

As Roosevelt said to his dog, you don't see the big picture. What is happening on the ground may be relatively unimportant, although those on the ground naturally don't see it that way. But when the war aims are wrong, the outcome won't be good. And even if the war aims are right, whatever they might be, if "the people" are against the war, it may be unwinnable. Of course, learned people, which doesn't include me, don't always agree. We have staged performances by civilians in this country, too, which might intentionally give you the wrong impression. The present administration is running on a lot of lies. No offense if he's your man.

Peter S

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2019, 05:10:29 PM »
Wartime reporting - latterly front-line journalism but originally newspapers reprinting letters home handed over by family members - has always been fraught. Napoleon claimed one of his best sources of military intelligence was the London press; Wellington tried, and failed, to dissuade his officers from writing home too much detail of where they were and what they were doing. The reporting from Crimea changed the way wars were fought and armies were run. In South Africa Lord Roberts purposely fed misinformation to the press to mislead the enemy. In WWI a jingoistic press fed a lot of lies to the home population and encouraged young men to go to their deaths “like a soldier”. It’s generally accepted that frontline photography and being the first war fought on television helped bring Vietnam to an end. Today things are further complicated by troops with mobile phones and helmet cams streaming their day-to-day back home.

No simple answers - probably not even simple questions for this one.
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BlueTrain

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2019, 07:47:55 PM »
Don't believe the enemy's propaganda more than your own and never believe your own propaganda. Not your government's but your own. H.L. Mencken wrote that journalists are, in the main, extremely stupid, sentimental and credulous fellows--because nothing is easier than to fool them--because many of them lack the sharp intelligence that the proper discharge of their duties require. However, Mencken himself was in fact, a journalist.

It is quite possible that the pages of nudist publications and books on the subject are as full of as much propaganda and exaggerations as anything. It is said that you shouldn't believe anything you read and only half of what you see. In this respect, the blind may have the advantage.

Peter S

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Re: On Saving Naturist Literature
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2019, 12:02:38 AM »
There is the delicate balance of differentiating between propaganda and reporting. If you know the publication you’re reading you should know which side of the line they veer towards, but of course the dedicated reader probably does not have that critical faculty(yes Daily Mail reader, I’m looking at you).

During the Falklands War a small group of UK journalists went with the Task Force and pooled their reports, which helped balance the quality, I think. A classic report from that time has added a phrase to the English lexicon - the Argentines claimed to have shot down a number of British aircraft, but from the deck of the British carrier Brian Hanrahan, an experienced and trusted BBC man, said he couldn’t reveal numbers for security reasons, “but I counted them out, and I counted them back”, and there had been no losses.
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