And you thought clothing was bad

[BlueTrain]

I tend to agree with just about everything you said. In theory, of course, everyone is operating in their own self-interest, especially corporations. The object of a corporation is to make money for the owners. It doesn't really work out that way in practice, though. The way it really works is that the corporation makes upper management wealthy, sometimes incredibly wealthy. And wealth equals power, whether or not it's exercised. How much difference it makes to you or me is another matter.

I believe that it is in the nature of many people that once they've made up their mind, they won't change it, no matter what. Alternatively, facts are irrelevant, sometimes because the issues that really matter are not being discussed at all. And it goes without saying that morality and ethics sometimes don't matter.

I realize there are places in the world where more people than average live exceptionally long lives. But from what I've read, there is conflicting information. As I recall, they weren't all necessarily happy, although happy is an elusive term. None ate a lot, though. I don't think any of them lived in urban areas, either. But I also don't recall there was any mention of coincidence about people living longer than average in certain areas.

On the matter of living longer, I keep remembering two things. First, Thoreau advocated a plant-based diet, which I believe he really followed. That was also long before processed foods and additives. But my diet is full of meat, food additives and highly processed foods and I'm almost 30 years older than Thoreau was when he died. In some respects, whole-wheat bread is not natural. So be careful about tossing around words like natural or organic. A 100% organic farm is no better place to work than one that isn't, either.

Thoreau never married. It's said married people live longer, though the joke is that it may only seem that way. Interesting point to think about, though. I think most of those old folks in the studies were married. Also, as near as I recall, some of those places were in Communist countries, which would nullify any positive results of any study done by a conservative American organization, if you follow me.

[jbeegoode]

National Geographic this month, and an earlier issue. The "blue zones" studies results are all thick on the net. What they eat is just one factor. Built in exercise, life long relationships, purpose, belonging are common threads.

I don't recall any communist countries, but there was a spot in Russia where people were noted to live really long that isn't included for some reason. I had friends from there. Saul totally abused his obese body and dropped dead in his 70's in spite of his bad habits and Larry his son got cancer (probably nuclear radiation) and passed at 65.

There is a group in Costa Rica that eat black beans salsa and corn tortillas for breakfast. The waters and food of Vicabamba, Ecuador were negated, it was just bad memory and record keeping. The ancient Inca kings used to vacation there for health. There are consistent threads. None were urban, one set in Southern California.

Oh yea, smoking and drinking excessively were not habits.

I'm not as concerned about dying as quality of living, myself.
Jbee

[John P]

On the matter of living longer, I keep remembering two things. First, Thoreau advocated a plant-based diet, which I believe he really followed. That was also long before processed foods and additives. But my diet is full of meat, food additives and highly processed foods and I'm almost 30 years older than Thoreau was when he died. In some respects, whole-wheat bread is not natural. So be careful about tossing around words like natural or organic. A 100% organic farm is no better place to work than one that isn't, either.

Thoreau never married. It's said married people live longer, though the joke is that it may only seem that way. Interesting point to think about, though. I think most of those old folks in the studies were married. Also, as near as I recall, some of those places were in Communist countries, which would nullify any positive results of any study done by a conservative American organization, if you follow me.

I just looked up "thoreau vegetarian" and he wasn't one, though in general he ate a simple diet that didn't cost much.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/11/535770269/what-did-thoreau-really-eat-you-might-be-surprised

About his non-marriage, I've got a story. A few years ago my wife and I hosted a naturist couple that we're friends with for a week at our home, while the male member of the couple helped me rebuild our front porch (actually the other way around--he's an experienced builder, and I fetched and carried). One day we took a recreation break, and all four of us went out to Walden Pond. I knew there's a replica of Thoreau's famous cabin there, but it was a nice surprise to find that there was a costumed Thoreau re-enactor in it, giving little performances of what the great man might have said to a visitor. It happened that I'd read a biography of Thoreau recently, so I was ready with things to talk to him about, and one thing I thought would be fun was asking him about Miss Ford. Apparently this lady was a governess to Ralph Waldo Emerson's children, or perhaps just a lodger in the home there (she's not a well-documented person) but anyway, she met Henry during his visits to the house, and at one point she proposed marriage to him. The record says that he didn't just refuse her, but that he was quite rude about it. I said, "Mr Thoreau, while you've been on your visits to Mr Emerson, apparently you met Miss Ford. What did you think of her?" And he said, "Miss Ford? A little brown pinched woman, intent on interrupting my bachelor career! Of course I refused her!" He looked almost horrified.

I was a little surprised, but it was a great act. I said, "But Mr Thoreau, a heart that offers love has value..."

He wasn't having any of it. "Not MY heart!" he snapped.

A few minutes later he asked us to be on our way, as he was expecting a party of schoolchildren. As we left I said, "Thank you, Mr Thoreau. You watch out for that cough." (Knowing that he died of tuberculosis.) Ever since then, my friend has been repeating that "Little pinched woman" line back to me. It was a perfect case of tossing the right pitch to a player who knew how to hit it.

Compulsory link with nudity: Thoreau swam nude in Walden Pond, and so have I. Of course in his day swimsuits hadn't been invented, and hardly anyone visited Walden Pond. Now you have to be sneaky. Standing offer: if any readers of this board can make it to Boston, I'll take you out to Walden. We can walk as much as you want to and you can swim, but I can't promise that nudity will be possible in these less innocent times.

[Greenbare Woods]

I believe that it is in the nature of many people that once they've made up their mind, they won't change it, no matter what. Alternatively, facts are irrelevant, sometimes because the issues that really matter are not being discussed at all. And it goes without saying that morality and ethics sometimes don't matter.

BINGO!   As the old saying goes, "My mind is made up.  Don't confuse me with facts."

Morality and ethics are important, but there is no universal agreement about morality or ethics.   Some fools say that being naked is immoral.

[BlueTrain]

These subjects, you know, are difficult to discuss within the confines of a forum such as this, especially for someone like me who is not the polished writer that Thoreau was. I do edit my posts once in a while, though, but only when absolutely necessary (and not always then).

What I was trying to say when I mentioned the Communists, was that when studying something, it is probably awfully tempting to leave out things that don't fit your idea of what the results or conclusions ought to be. Inconvenient facts, you might say. Sometimes common sense gets left out, too. After all, it is interesting to study people in different places who happen to live to be quite old but if you aren't going to live in any of those places, it is merely interesting. Not that many people get to live where they want to anyway, although it's worth the effort to try. If some people only had the price of a bus ticket out of town!

Although there may not be universal standards regarding ethics, morality and manners, I believe there are more similarities than differences. True, there are some basic cultural differences, like the way shaking hands is done in some cultures but not in others. But offering aid in an emergency, basic hospitality and respect for both neighbors and strangers. Those things are universal, except where recent events and behavior has cancel the inherent good of people. As we all know, some people have no manners, no ethics and no morals by any standard. And some have no standards, either. There may be more people like that than I wish to admit, too. And finally, don't expect any particular logic about what the standards happen to be, especially concerning nudity.

[nuduke]

Stimulated by Peter S's remarks of 13th Jan post, I have to agree.  We are assailed from all directions by the chemicals we have invented to make our world better as we see it.  I often wonder if the current vast increase in all manner of diseases from allergies to cancers is actually a product of living in a world full of synthetic food additives that we ingest, cutaneous absorption from washing powder additives, textiles and shower gel (to name but a few), fumes and residues of polymers from the packaging of our foodstuffs and many, many other chemicals that seep into us daily.
There are so many compounds in our environment that we absorb, it is so complex to try and asset the effect of any.  Hopefully people will not stop trying to look for dangerous things that we eat but it seems a huge job to further reduce those risks or indeed work out if there are effects happening.
John

[BlueTrain]

I have doubts that there is a vast increase in diseases. We get rid of one, mostly, and another takes its place. It might be that we are less accepting of death than we used to be. Between all the safety devices we are surrounded with and the wonder drugs, we still die. It is probably possible to have a diet consisting exclusively of pure foods, grown or raised without any additives, preservatives or being genetically modified, just like we did in the 1940s. It probably wouldn't be cheap, though, and possibly no more nutritious either. But it almost seems that food like that is a luxury only the well-off can afford. Or, did we really eat like that in the 1940s?

[jbeegoode]

...Standing offer: if any readers of this board can make it to Boston, I'll take you out to Walden. We can walk as much as you want to and you can swim, but I can't promise that nudity will be possible in these less innocent times.

What temperature is the water in the summer?
Jbee

[John P]

By the middle of May, I'd be confident of swimming reasonably comfortably in any body of fresh water in southern New England. Farther north, you might want to wait until June. I'm thinking of Little Rock Pond, which is on the route for the Solstice Hike in Vermont. Some of us do swim there (Dan is always first) but you do notice that the water could be warmer. Of course it's easier to step in if it's a warm day without a breeze blowing!

[John P]

Making a totally separate post because this thread has multiple topics. Some of us here are willing to entertain some ideas about health and diet that I think are really misguided. I think the key point should be that we've seen a constantly increasing life span for people in rich countries: anything you say about health now versus some past era is arguing against obvious success. Could we do even better? Probably yes, but we're doing pretty well already. There's no reason to argue about this when the figures are out there at everyone's fingertips.

But when I said "constantly increasing life span" that doesn't totally apply to the United States right now. In fact life expectancy has slipped a little in the last few years, and it's because of drug use, alcoholism and suicide. If anyone wants to talk about how we can live longer, they ought to give some thought to the ways that people cause their own early deaths, either by deliberate action or by substance abuse.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/american-life-expectancy-has-dropped-again-heres-why

[BlueTrain]

Good post but I think one of your points, the one about people in rich countries having longer lives, should be amended to reflect that it really only applies to those who are relatively well-off, if not necessarily rich. Even though the United States might be considered a rich country, there are still people who are living in poverty with poor health habits and without convenient or affordable access to health care professionals. When "convenient and affordable access to health care professionals" became common, I don't know.

I suspect there are various opinions about doctors and the so-called health care industry as there are about food and the food industry. There was a time, though, when fairly small towns might have a hospital and doctors who made house calls. It wasn't like that always, of course, and it goes without saying that it isn't like that anymore, either, at least as far as I know. My experiences with doctors, hospitals and health care in general has been overwhelmingly positive and, fortunately, I am well covered by insurance. But an interesting fact is, where I live, which is an affluent (or very affluent) county in Northern Virginia, there is essentially one hospital system and many medical practices are also part of that system. I don't know if that's good or bad but that's the system through which I've had those good experiences. On the other hand, I suspect there are individuals who are very demanding as patients and difficult to satisfy. I realize doctors are paid well (but not as much as you might think, considering) but under present conditions, who'd want to be a doctor?

[jbeegoode]

The hot spots for extra aging and better health are mostly not particularly affluent. A couple are in pretty much poverty. So, just being healthy and cared for may not be enough. Rich also makes indulgence, and less a exercise for most of us in various degrees. I might be healthier living in a tent in the woods and migrating, with good food and lifelong friends. Or, living i one small community, living and working well. Or, getting tatamis and cushions and going traditional Japanese style to get up and squat more. Or," blow up the TV, move to the country, eat a lot of peaches and try to find Jesus on my own."

Every so often, a doctor may be needed.
Jbee

[BlueTrain]

Needing care is not the same as needing a doctor.

[reubenT]

Yes,  I think clothing is bad for us in some ways,  but our common diet is bad as well. 

I came from a predominantly vegetarian culture on both sides.  My mother's family used a little meat but she decided to drop it before her children arrived.   Both grandmothers lived past 90,   94 and 96.   My dad's father died at 68 from heart attack,  My mother said he was a foodaholic.  Severe overeater.   Her father died at 87.  He was a Wisconsin farmer and cheese lover.  My dad passed away last year at age 92.   Although he was vegetarian he was not a consumer of health food particularly.  Processed and sweetened was his breakfasts and snacks.  I am sure he would have lasted much longer with more natural and raw foods.  But that was his choice,  we have a right to make our own choices and live or die with their results.

I research many things;  nutrition and health,  natural healing is one area we've worked on for a lifetime.    In regards to longevity the difference between Mongolia and Japan is significant.  average of 67 versus 87.    Mongolia diet is heavy in meat,  since the country is pastoral in nature,  while Japan is more rice/vegetable oriented.  Seems like Okinawa was 89 average with a lot of over 100's   

I have gradually assembled my own opinions and  plan for life and diet.  It's Eden oriented.   I've decided to be a serious naturist gardener/farmer.   Due to my early experience of nudity repression,  and subsequent break from it.  I feel the need for all the body freedom I can get.   It looks like the closer I can get to Eden style living and eating the healthier I can be. And the better chance I have at living to be old healthfully and working condition.    And so I am working on heading that way.     And we also study fertility,  and plan to use and experiment with nutrient dense type fertility ideas,   getting heavy minerals on the soil in the best balance we can achieve for best results. Monitoring plant brix levels to watch how they respond.    With my grandfather being a grower of produce,  my mother raised with that and being an avid gardener,  I grew up in the gardening scene and it kinda comes naturally.   Any time I miss gardening for a season it feels like something just aint right. 
  So in pursuance of that I'm working on equipment to help out,  and fencing to protect my food plants from critters.  Working on clearing fence row and cutting posts in the vicinity of the fence from the cedar and locust trees.  Closing in maybe 7 acres. Most of the fence the posts are coming from within 100-200 ft of where they will go in, and a lot within 20-50 ft.  But there's excess posts in some places and limited in others,  so we'll have to transport some around to the lower side.
   The old track loader I've been reworking in the shop is practically done,  ready to start up and make sure all the repairs are working.    Need to build a mowing machine to maintain the orchard and collect mulch and compost material from cover crops.  And eventually I need to take a road trip in a truck to pick up the trace mineral product I can't buy and have shipped.   I bought a "new" truck that should work for that.   It's antique but in excellent condition, being predominantly garage kept, continually maintained and just 22,000 miles on it.   A 1975 IH, fire dpt water tank truck.  I will remove the tank pretty soon and put a flat bed on it.  Since I want to go full time naturist gardening I have to make it large enough to be "commercial" in order to not have to resort to sideline jobs to keep the finances in shape.  Besides once I get the brix up, it'll taste so good people are going to want it.   I may not be able to keep up with the demand for it. 
     

[BlueTrain]

I've never felt repressed in my life. Maybe there is a psychological element to everything.

We are descended from and are related to so many people that given one's own family history, it's difficult to draw a definite conclusion. My mother, for instance, didn't make it to 50 but her mother lived to be about 93, I think it was. Of my mother's brothers, the oldest outlived all the rest. One of my uncles who lived across the street from where I grew up used to say that everything you eat will kill you. I was never sure what his point was but both he and his wife died at age 64 (I'm 73). Neither were the least bit overweight, either, and ate a lot that they grew themselves, without a heavy meat diet. They both smoked heavily, though. My father lived to be 84. His diet was largely the same but he didn't smoke. My wife's family tends to be long-lived. Her mother was 97 (we were sure she'd live to be 100 and one of her cousins lived to be 103--and she smoked. Both drank. My wife's aunt will be 95 next month and her uncle will be 92 I think. None of them ate home-grown food and none of them were nudists,either. I'm sure that diet is very important to health and longevity but I just can't put my finger on it.

So, no matter what I eat, I figure I have another ten good years and after that, I don't know. My wife, though, who is seven years younger, will undoubtedly outlive me by ten years at least. I expect to outlive our family doctor, too, who is five years older than I am.