Encounters...what to do?

[Alf]

. . . as I was approaching the car, I heard a twig break behind me and, looking over my shoulder, saw a jogger with a couple of dogs coming up behind me. He was about 30 yards away and so I decided that he had probably already seen me and there was no point in dressing so I continued, greeting him with a cheerful “Good morning” as he passed. A few yards further on he stopped and called for his dogs then looked at me and asked “Why aren’t you wearing any clothes?” in a rather sniffy I-want-to-be-offended sort of tone. . .

Hi Ian.

I think that since we appear out of place, that our responses are not quite what they would be a second time around because we know that we are out of place. Crossing paths with other people is sometimes unexpected and faced with someone who 'expects' other people to conform to their ways can result in a vocal clash. Oh well, the jogger may open his mind as he too reflects on his day.

Cheers,

Alf

[Greenbare Woods]

Oh well, the jogger may open his mind as he too reflects on his day.
Cheers,   Alf

Exactly.  The jogger who was surprised by seeing a naked hiker now has psychological permission to contemplate going naked himself.  In 5 years he may try it himself.  At worst, he suffered no harm seeing an human being.

[Greenbare Woods]

My plan for this year has been to be more open and seen naked.  Yesterday I was at WalMart and thought about walking naked around my car in the parking lot to dress and undress standing on the passenger side after driving naked.  But I chickened out.  I stood on the driver side and put on my clothes, then reverse.

One of my normal activities is to take out the trash and get the mail naked.  This summer it has been rare or hasn't happened that someone comes past while I'm taking out the trash.  Our trash bin is on the side of our road, but its a rural road without much traffic.  So my plan to be seen more often hasn't been working.

Well today I was taking out the trash and I thought I would wait for someone to come by -- if it didn't take too long.  I put down the bag of trash about 50 feet from the bin and stood around for a while.  Then I wandered across the road to see if there had been any mail left from yesterday, nope.  I wandered around a little more and finally heard a car coming in the distance.  I picked up my bag of trash and waited for them to come around the corner of the road.  Once the car was in sight I walked out naked to the bin and deposited my trash. 

Instead of turning to go immediately I stood there and waited.  That took only seconds because the car was almost to me by the time I closed the lid on the trash bin.  The driver couldn't see my lower half as she approached because she was approaching from the side behind the bin, the right side facing the road.  As she got right next to me I could see it was a woman driving an older sedan, and as is the custom when meeting neighbors on rural farm roads, she waved to me. 

I returned her wave and watched her drive on.  "Job well done," I thought, and then headed up the driveway back to the house.  A pleasant summer morning. 

[nuduke]

Mostly coming back on things Bob posted:
1) Old farts:  I don't feel old but fart...well, got me there!
2) Following your remark about difference in current and past physique - I'd love to see a picture of you 50 years ago, Bob!
3) Why do you want to be seen naked more?  Is there a rationale?  I've learned that there's probably always a well-reasoned rationale for what Bob says and does.

John

[Greenbare Woods]

3) Why do you want to be seen naked more?  Is there a rationale?  I've learned that there's probably always a well-reasoned rationale for what Bob says and does.
John

Its political advocacy.   Promoting public naked as an acceptable choice for all requires naked people to be out in public so often that it becomes common and unremarkable by the public.   So my goal for this year is to practice what I preach by getting seen naked while doing normal every day activities. 

Bob

[JOhnGw]

Can't fault it Bob.
I only wish I had the bottle.

[nuduke]

 I knew you'd have a cogent reason, Bob.  Good luck.  If you're prepared to risk the negative consequences, it's a brave and good thing to do to help people to understand naturism. 

Unlike JOhn, I have the bottle.  Sadly it's just a bottle of coke not courage.
John

[Greenbare Woods]

I knew you'd have a cogent reason, Bob.  Good luck.  If you're prepared to risk the negative consequences, it's a brave and good thing to do to help people to understand naturism. 
John

I'm planning not to have any significant negative consequences.   Most people I have encountered over 50 years of being seen naked have been OK with seeing another human.  Now that everyone has cell phones with cameras handy it may change.  I hope not. 

Yesterday I was out for a naked drive in the country nearby.   I've started submitting photos to a site about Naked Public Dares.  I saw that JohnGw was already posting there so I had sent them a few photos.   One of their Dare ideas is naked with a gate, and on this trip I got out to get some photos of a couple of gates.   I forgot to insert a memory card into my camera, so I have no photos to show. 

Most of the traffic was farm trucks.  Its wheat harvest season here. I always wave when passing a farm truck, a habit I learned when I was 14 and driving harvest trucks. Naked or not I still wave.  Soon I came to a little town called Pine City https://www.google.com/maps/@47.2020778,-117.5263132,953m/data=!3m1!1e3 

Pine City's big industry is a couple of grain silos called "elevators" in these parts.  There were trucks of grain coming in from farms and unloading. The office and unloading area had staff.  As I approached Pine City some guy in a car came up behind me and was riding my bumper like he was in a hurry.  Since there was a wide place in the road in Pine City, I pulled off to let him go past.  I sat a few moments observing the grain elevators.  Then I thought, "why not."  I opened my door and got out (naked) across the street from the larger elevator.  I walked around my car. It was a lovely day for a walk but I didn't want to be there very long.  Coming around my car from the back I got in again and drove on.  I don't know if anyone saw me naked in the middle of town or not.  People are usually minding their own business.  It was a lovely day for my campaign of pushing the envelope of nude acceptance.   

[eyesup]

Its political advocacy.   Promoting public naked as an acceptable choice . . .

e.g.
Frantic Citizen: But I saw a naked man out on Rt. 4!
Authority Figure: What was he doing?
FC: I don’t know. I think he was taking out the trash!
AF: Taking out the trash?
FC: Yes!
AF: Is that all?
FC: I guess so.
AF: It’s not against the law to take out trash.

etc., etc., etc.

Small steps accumulate!

Duane

[Greenbare Woods]

Its political advocacy.   Promoting public naked as an acceptable choice . . .

e.g.
Frantic Citizen: But I saw a naked man out on Rt. 4!
Authority Figure: What was he doing?
FC: I don’t know. I think he was taking out the trash!
AF: Taking out the trash?
FC: Yes!
AF: Is that all?
FC: I guess so.
AF: It’s not against the law to take out trash.

etc., etc., etc.

Small steps accumulate!

Duane

That's kind of my plan, Duane.   IF anyone does call the police, I'm not actually breaking any law just taking out my trash naked, nor walking in the woods naked.  I hope the police won't go off on a crusade against a harmless old guy who wasn't breaking any law.

Bob

[John P]

Well, what the Naturist Action Committee says for the state of Washington is:
RCW 9A.88.010  Indecent exposure.
(1) A person is guilty of indecent exposure if he or she intentionally makes any open and obscene exposure of his or her person or the person of another knowing that such conduct is likely to cause reasonable affront or alarm. The act of breastfeeding or expressing breast milk is not indecent exposure.

[NAC NOTE: The state of Washington has used RCW 9A.88.010 to arrest and prosecute persons for nude sunbathing.]

I suppose it comes down to whether nudity is "obscene". If it's not, then even if there is "reasonable affront or alarm" it wouldn't matter, because the exposure that provokes it has to be "open and obscene". That added note from the NAC is worrying, though it doesn't say that the prosecution(s) were successful. Experience elsewhere has shown that prosecutors try to use intimidation to get a guilty plea to some lesser offense, usually some variation on "disorderly conduct", carrying a small fine. What they don't want to do is go to court against a determined defendant, trying to get a conviction under a weak and ambiguous law. If they failed, they'd come out of it looking foolish, and there would be a precedent set that weakens the law still further. That doesn't mean that the defendant is spared a large expense in defending himself, though.

[jbeegoode]

 I had looked into the NAC information, too. Any idea what those definitions listed are about? Anybody care to speculate?
Jbee

[Greenbare Woods]

Well, what the Naturist Action Committee says for the state of Washington is:
RCW 9A.88.010  Indecent exposure.
(1) A person is guilty of indecent exposure if he or she intentionally makes any open and obscene exposure of his or her person or the person of another knowing that such conduct is likely to cause reasonable affront or alarm. The act of breastfeeding or expressing breast milk is not indecent exposure.

The NAC guide is way too limited to be useful.   In my state several courts have held that "intentionally" has meaning -- a naked person has to "intentionally" be doing "conduct" that "is likely" to cause affront or alarm.  Several courts have concluded similar to Oregon and California that merely being naked while minding your own business is not "conduct that is likely."    Naked exposure also has to be BOTH "open" and "obscene."   Our courts generally hold that human bodies are not inherently "obscene" for merely existing.  Courts observe that the Legislature did NOT adopt a law saying that naked bodies are illegal without obscene behavior intended to cause alarm or affront. 

A few years ago the Seattle police arrested a couple of men at the WNBR after some "offended" citizen complained.  The court rapidly had them freed and told the police not to waste their time.   Nobody has been arrested at the Seattle WNBR, the Freemont (Seattle) Parade, or other events in some years.  And there are now some beaches in Seattle where people often are naked. 

The other part is that our state is politically divided from west to east.  Its not clear that my east side police or courts will be as human friendly as the west side police.  They tend to be more about harassing people to rule by fear and violence, and less about the law over here. 

[NAC NOTE: The state of Washington has used RCW 9A.88.010 to arrest and prosecute persons for nude sunbathing.]

Again the NAC is limited information.  In the past few years the courts have tossed out such arrests and the police in several jurisdictions no longer waste time on them.  But they still could because police are jerks. 

I suppose it comes down to whether nudity is "obscene". If it's not, then even if there is "reasonable affront or alarm" it wouldn't matter, because the exposure that provokes it has to be "open and obscene".

Nudity has to be "intentionally" obscene.  That leaves out just being human going about your daily chores.  I suppose its a lot like the UK where police being jerks can harass anyone they choose, law or not.   I try not to be naked in public so long or so blatant that the police start getting calls and have time to come out to investigate.

What they don't want to do is go to court against a determined defendant, trying to get a conviction under a weak and ambiguous law. If they failed, they'd come out of it looking foolish, and there would be a precedent set that weakens the law still further. That doesn't mean that the defendant is spared a large expense in defending himself, though.

Indeed.  The police lost some cases over by Seattle where courts told them not to waste time of the courts with harassment arrests.   They see themselves as "the law" though, so we live in a land where freedom is not free.

Its a fine line to walk.  We gain public (and police) acceptance of nudity only by being naked in public.  But we risk harassment until it becomes common and accepted. 

That which is unseen rapidly becomes unseeable, and human bodies have been unseen and unseeable far too long.

Bob

[eyesup]

My impression of the cases where someone is arrested for minor infractions, of all types, have more to do with the officer deciding that they are misbehaving, not breaking a law.

I suppose I can see that disturbing the peace can be disturbing, but like one man's trash is another man's treasure, what some see as disturbing is entertainment for others. Unfortunately taxpayer dollars are wasted every year on this sort of hair splitting. I realize that law enforcement is trying to ensure that no harm is done but at some point you have to acknowledge that you can't guarantee that 100%.

Behaviors that repeatedly show up on the radar of enforcement should be addressed in training so the officer has a better and broader perspective. That way they can make a field decision that is more in line with the real impact of that behavior.

Duane

[jbeegoode]

In the field during encounters with police, there can be great ignorance of the intent of the law, or overreach. When it gets to court (and expense) there is the 14th amendment equal before the law. This has been used as a lawyers ploy in civil suits that I think sends it out of context. Anyway, enforcement there is then more consistent across the state.

If it ticks off the local police head, or he/she sees you as a threat to public decency, or thinks that there may be fire under the smoke, or his idea of justice has not been served, there can be harassment, which I have seen. You can't leave your door and see a cop without being stopped. I found in my case (I was too political, not a nude issue), that there was a group within the department that did the fascist deeds, not all of them. Years ago, I had a friend make a complaint after beating an arrest. He got stopped every time any cop saw him. He decided to move and drive another car, rather than live as a target.

Anyway, you get offered a pleee thing first. Then a lower court judge which may, or may not be a crony politician in robes. After that, in court, the odds are good that one side of the state will have to interpret law the same as the rest of the state. Then, there is the jury option (very expensive), which you might imagine results would vary. I'm not a Washington State attorney, but that is pretty common procedure in the USA.

If you have the means to support a suit, it should change things across the state. A shot heard around the state for freedom! Then, the local politicians might react, if it got loud and political enough. Depends.

Before that, as you say, most people are just minding their own business. Well, then there's the hysterical mother hiding her kids eyes.

In the words of Mr. Morton, "Jus' Sayin'."
Jbee