Author Topic: Club Visits  (Read 12657 times)

Bob Knows

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2016, 01:04:17 AM »
I have often considered a trip across country nude. Besides the havens of old and dear friends, I would make naturist resorts safe harbors during the trip.

I did that back in the early 1990s when I was a member of AANR.  I had their resort guide and my family.  My kids were younger teens about then.  We had a good time stopping at places across America.  Most of them were pretty well empty during the middle of the week.  They were inexpensive camping places with the added benefits of clothing not required and often a hot tub and pool.
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Elliot

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2016, 06:12:45 AM »
We... ...went out walking every day naked as a group along set paths. We walked by many other hill walkers who were clothed. People don't mind if the whole group is naked. They are more concerned if it's a single person. Apparently even just having a dog with you helps.  ...
This jumped out at me!  This concept is vital to promoting wholesome Naturist values.  Much of the current fear of nudity is rooted in the lone pervert.  Ask any lady -- she probably encountered one in her youth.  That's what we are up against.  And the more there are of us in a group, the more legitimate we appear.  Remember Arlo Guthrie -- ...they might think it's a movement".  And that's what it is.   :)

Bob Knows

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2016, 05:14:23 PM »
We... ...went out walking every day naked as a group along set paths. We walked by many other hill walkers who were clothed. People don't mind if the whole group is naked. They are more concerned if it's a single person. Apparently even just having a dog with you helps.  ...
This jumped out at me!  This concept is vital to promoting wholesome Naturist values.  Much of the current fear of nudity is rooted in the lone pervert.  Ask any lady -- she probably encountered one in her youth.  That's what we are up against.  And the more there are of us in a group, the more legitimate we appear.  Remember Arlo Guthrie -- ...they might think it's a movement".  And that's what it is.   :)

Indeed.  Naked people need to bunch up and go naked where we get seen.  Let ourselves be a movement.   
Human bodies are natural, comfortable, and green.
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jbeegoode

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2016, 06:42:05 PM »
Yea, there is something emboldening about being with others. It feels different with DF at my side, but a larger group seems to take ownership. It is as if there is some democratic majority rule that takes over. It also looks more like a club event as less easy to misinterpret.

When we were young, we would arrive at a pond and claim it to be nude. It seemed to make sense. The established majority shouldn't have to change for the minority. That was faulty thinking as per the law, but I wonder if this reflects group psychology, like peer pressure and innate conformity behaviors.

I have always had my concerns about Bob's bold trail behaviors while alone.  But attempting to look at it from the others, the textile's point of view, being in a group should be more effective and safer. A-holes and jerks will also curb their lewd remarks and may leer more subtly. There would be less alarm as has been mentioned.


Alice's Restaurant has been quoted once again, and within just a couple of weeks! Good to see that the principles and attitude haven't ended up on the Group W bench.
Jbee
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Bob Knows

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2016, 01:52:15 AM »
The established majority shouldn't have to change for the minority. That was faulty thinking as per the law, but I wonder if this reflects group psychology, like peer pressure and innate conformity behaviors.


The majority should not have to change for a minority, but being the majority does not give them rights to own and control the minority.  An effective government protects the rights of the minority to make their own decisions.   Nobody is telling ore even asking the majority to go naked, but that does not mean they have a legitimate right to demand that we wear their clothes. 

Thomas Jefferson wrote about religion, "it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."   That goes for demanding clothing too.  If I am not wearing clothes it neither picks the pocket nor breaks the leg of my neighbor.  It is not his right to demand my conformance to his religious standards.



Human bodies are natural, comfortable, and green.
To see more of Bob you can view his personal photo page
http://www.photos.bradkemp.com/greenbare.html

nudewalker

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2016, 06:10:34 PM »
Once again in this election cycle there is the usual bombardment of my inbox, social media and such that one must vote "Christian" values but they often mean taking away rights of those who don't agree. I like your quote from Thomas Jefferson Bob, as long as it doesn't hurt my pocket or body who cares. Remembering the days of the "moral majority" who claimed the right to force us into their vision. They will want to cover us like John Ashcroft covered ststues!
"Always do what you are afraid to do"-Emerson

jbeegoode

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2016, 07:48:16 PM »
I so love T.J. I've read it all, over and over.
Jbee
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nuduke

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2016, 11:26:26 PM »
Jefferson was a utilitarian, was he not? Greatest good for greatest number.  As such he might have been against naturism!!
Quote from: Bob
Thomas Jefferson wrote about religion, "it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."   That goes for demanding clothing too.  If I am not wearing clothes it neither picks the pocket nor breaks the leg of my neighbor.  It is not his right to demand my conformance to his religious standards....
...In that nudity might be your religion, Bob :D 
I entirely agree with those Jeffersonian and Bobknowsian sentiments!
John

John P

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2016, 04:38:01 AM »
Well, when it's Jefferson and his life, "being the majority does not give them rights to own and control the minority" has a certain meaning. Think of Sally Hemings, and all the others. But Sally most of all.

When he did think about where it was all leading, he said "I tremble for my country when I recollect that God is just".

MartinM

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2016, 08:59:33 AM »
Jefferson was a utilitarian, was he not? Greatest good for greatest number.  As such he might have been against naturism!!
Quote from: Bob
Thomas Jefferson wrote about religion, "it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."   That goes for demanding clothing too.  If I am not wearing clothes it neither picks the pocket nor breaks the leg of my neighbor.  It is not his right to demand my conformance to his religious standards....
...In that nudity might be your religion, Bob :D 
I entirely agree with those Jeffersonian and Bobknowsian sentiments!
John
Greatest good for the greatest number surely comes from cultivating tolerance and openness, except to behaviour that is shown to be damaging. Everyone is in a minority in some sense, so majority rules would put everyone in straight-jackets. Freedom to be ourselves, while respecting others' choices to do likewise, allows us all to breath. Anyway, being more exposed to nudity has been shown to be healthy, both pyhsically and mentally.

Greatest good for the greatest number isn't necessarily the result of a democratic vote. There are plenty of examples where the majority have opted for more repressive regimes. Tolerance is a principle that needs expounding as good for all. Too many want laws simply to reflect how they like things, without consideration of other viewpoints.
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jbeegoode

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2016, 10:36:06 AM »
Jefferson was a utilitarian, was he not? Greatest good for greatest number.  As such he might have been against naturism!!
Quote from: Bob
Thomas Jefferson wrote about religion, "it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."   That goes for demanding clothing too.  If I am not wearing clothes it neither picks the pocket nor breaks the leg of my neighbor.  It is not his right to demand my conformance to his religious standards....
...In that nudity might be your religion, Bob :D 
I entirely agree with those Jeffersonian and Bobknowsian sentiments!
John
T.J. wrote the Bill of Rights, which protects the minority and individual from the dictates of the majority. He was a renaissance man, who loved correspondence with others and the liberation brought to knowledge and education. He often enjoyed change. He feared the ignorant emotional masses and majorities, in a democracy. That was much of his rational for universal education and higher educational opportunities, free speech and public libraries.

Like anyone else, his opinions and outlook changed/evolved over time. I'm sure that his statement about a revolution is good from time to time reflected the spirit of the times, but he did organize the constitution to be a tool of flexibility for change to occur without violence.

As for this Sally Hemmings controversy. It is unfounded misrepresentation of history by a resentful 20th century outlook. He was a gentlemen of the times, aristocratic and raise as such, and among his peers. The culture was established and like so many things still today, most people didn't question it. At that time, slavery was accepted norm. It wasn't questioned. Most people actually believed that there was an inferior race and many other prejudices with little question.  How many assumptions still exist today as norm and trusted? They didn't have access to alternatives statistics, or media. The world was generally ignorant, but for the influences provided in local areas. If someone was raised in such circumstance then I can’t blame them, or hate them, or point my finger at them for participating, or approving of it. “Forgive them for they no not what they do, “ someone once said. Jefferson actually was aware and wrote in concern and questioned the issue. He considered liberation. He had dilemma with the idea of freeing his slaves. He had a relationship with Sally that we can only speculate about. The evidence showed a very caring lover in a conflicting social moral conundrum of those times. He didn’t grow up in these times where it is easy to dismiss the norms of 250 years ago. These so called intellectuals and the liberals with chips on their shoulders kinda alarm me when they expect people of another era to behave the same as today's common sense allows and then show the stupidity to demonize historic people, to top it off.

Our bodies are persecuted by the current ignorance. People don’t question it and there are degrees of that and opinions change over time. We are victims of a democratic process years ago, that created the laws, and is supported by ignorance. T.J. would have defended us. In his times, the many families lived in a very small tight homes, or a cabin. Separate bedrooms were for the rich, often. There had to be some family nudity to be practical. There were the famous revolutionary forefathers who skinnydipped, grew up without swim suits, and expounded airbaths. Society was probably less uptight than today about such things generally, particularly for males. Remember, we must put an 18thcentury women’s place into the context. We need to apply that thinking and social norm to the Sally issue, too.

With all of this in consideration, I believe that T.J. would certainly lend support to us to a great extent. If he had been able to join this forum with us, he probably would agree with us. The guy was complex and wrote volumes for decades. His opinions changed, he couldn't always be on foolproof target, but he always sought the truth and did his best to get behind it.
Jbee
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nuduke

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2016, 01:57:03 PM »
Quote from: MartinM
Greatest good for the greatest number surely comes from cultivating tolerance and openness

Utilitarianism was (and probably still is) an effort to answer to the practical question “What ought a man to do?” Its answer is that he ought to act so as to produce the best consequences possible.
I believe Utilitarianism was born from a group of thinkers that did think the way you indicate they should have, and on the whole Utilitarianism gave birth to many positive reforms, influences and changes in society such as a shift in legal punishments from being for retribution to being for personal penance, the rise of modern democracy was very much influenced and the way we regard our democratic governments these days.  Jefferson's Bill of Rights was, I believe much influenced by Utilitarian principles.  However, Martin, you are right.  Utilitarianism at it's root contains elements that we would today consider negative (and indeed were considered by the contemporaries of Jefferson to be so) such as societal hegemony and coercion on the individual (for the greater good), the individual choice of the greatest good which may in fact be very far from that for others.  Bentham, an original Utilitarian, advocated the maximisation of personal pleasure and benefit but others such as Karl Popper have reversed that meaning by defining the aim of Utilitarianism as the minimisation of pain.  Bentham's views were quite dictatorial in many ways. 

I think also that Jefferson, Mill, Bentham and all of these people and their views were, as Jbee very eloquently points out, developed and promulgated within the morals and views of their time and look to us today differently than when they were new.  Read Jbee's papragraph beginning:
Quote
As for this Sally Hemmings controversy...
which sums up the responses to the paradox, raised by your very incisive comment.

As an aside (what else in the FRN forum? :) ) it is obvious that Jbee has been deeply influenced by Jefferson and in fact, despite my previous generalisation in an earlier post, I agree with his assertion that Jefferson would have defended us in his times and in ours (except perhaps if the greater good were seriously negatively affected).  I am off to read more on the life of Jefferson.  I feel exposed with no real knowledge!

Actually that prompts me to add, just before I sign off this one, reading my own post above, I would not want anyone to assume any credible level of authority or depth of knowledge from my remarks.  My knowledge of Utilitarianism or any philosophical ism is merely the product of 'A Little Knowledge' gleaned from a book of that name and a few other complete layman's guides to philosophy etc.  That memory and a little web-checking informs my response above so in fact it could be total bollocks (philosophical debating term there) and I would ever refer to Jbee for a deeper apprehension of these things than I.  Mine just sounds good, the empty vessel making the most (floridly written) sound!

John

John P

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2016, 04:05:32 PM »
Thomas Jefferson didn't write the Bill of Rights; James Madison did (mostly).


jbeegoode

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2016, 09:23:11 PM »
Thomas Jefferson didn't write the Bill of Rights; James Madison did (mostly).
Madison has been getting way more credit these last 20 plus years, and Jefferson attacked and diminished. This is a corporate, business interpretation of history perpetrated by a couple of Koch bro backed think tanks. Te American Heritage Foundation was one of the early propaganda mills that began to spread this stuff.

Not to dismiss Madison, but I have to disagree. Of course Jefferson didn't do it alone. It was Jefferson's thinking, influence that made much of the push. Jefferson's philosophy and writing skills, original drafting, but in the context of prevailing attitudes and lessons of the times. There is a great deal of practicality. Much was obviously a reaction to abuse from the occupying forces, like second amendment issues, billeting troops in homes, safe with your papers, speech issues and more. The Bill of Rights is filled with stuff that they just wanted to end and had learned the value of on a deeper level as the ideal of the concept of free men. Reading deeper into Jefferson's letters and work over time, it is revealed that his influence, educational background and philosophizing broadened the discussion and use, of issues that were reactions to the abuse. He had been on to the ideals before and after the revolution.

Well, not to get off of naturist issues...I digress.
Jbee
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John P

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Re: Club Visits
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2016, 11:35:26 PM »
I did a little searching around, and on the American Civil Liberties Union's website they say this:

The American Bill of Rights, inspired by Jefferson and drafted by James Madison, was adopted, and in 1791 the Constitution's first ten amendments became the law of the land.

Is that a compromise you can accept?