Club Visits

[nuduke]

Last night I did some assorted reading on Jefferson's biography, politics, writing etc.  What an amazing, renaissance man that could truly be labelled a polymath and possibly a genius. The breadth of his expertise and achievement just fill one with deep depression that one man can achieve so much in such a relatively short time compared to one's own efforts that if they achieve a mere 0.1% of what TJ achieved, it would still be a full and successful life!
I can understand now why you admire the man, JBee.
John 

[eyesup]

Jefferson has always been one of my favorite Americans.

He wrote the Declaration of Independence single handedly.

I have a copy of the draft version annotated by Franklin et.al., a copy of the edited version from Congress and of course the final copy.

It is interesting to see what was added and what was removed. Jefferson's original had slavery listed as one of his grievances against the crown, which Franklin left in place. Congress removed it.

There but for the stroke of a pen . . .!

Duane

[jbeegoode]

I have several letters written to Madison by Jefferson in concern for a bill of rights and other titles to a similar topic, between 1785 to 1789. One even commends Madison for some original ideas that Jefferson says he hadn't thought of when he first was presented with them. There was clearly a discourse previous to arriving at the final product. Remember Jefferson was stuck in Paris during some of this key time. The founding fathers bantered back and forth coming from numerous sources of knowledge, including even injecting the principles of the Magna Carta and other significant works. The arrival of the document was a complex process derived from collaboration from far and wide, over time. Nobody can claim pure credit for its inception. There are a particular fighters and creators, but I can't justify discounting my appreciation for any of the men that ultimately caused inception the document and that are now rolling around in their graves distraught.

Now, that the matter is left properly less settled...

...Was it Madison or Adams that has been credited for regular skinny dips in the Potomac River? Franklin skinnydipped and did air baths. People bathed and swam in rivers commonly, but not in mixed company and women were not equal nor liberated.
Jbee

[eyesup]

I am not familiar with that tale.

Based on my limited knowledge of the two men if I had to pick I would pick Adams. Madison was an intellectual and was not a robust man. He stayed mostly on his property, studied and didn't travel much.

Adams, on the other hand, not only traveled, but dragged his son John Q. with him everywhere. He strikes me as a man that knew his mind and was an independent thinker of the same cloth as Franklin. Although I don't think the two liked each other much.

His wife, Abigail, was a major influence in his life and work and managed to step outside the traditional wifely role. She is a fascinating woman.

Duane

[John P]

Here's something on the Internet saying it really happened, so it must be true:
http://www.upi.com/blog/2012/08/20/American-politicians-who-loved-skinnydipping/8511345475085/

The skinny-dippin' president wasn't John Adams, but John Quincy Adams. Adams Senior was a bit of a dry old stick, and probably wouldn't have done such a thing. As I recall in David McCullough's book about him, there was an occasion during the Revolution where John Adams and Ben Franklin went on a trip to try to negotiate a settlement with the British. Along the way they shared a bed at an inn (don't clutch your pearls: that was quite common in those days) and Franklin, being the fresh-air fiend he was, wanted the window open. Adams had the sensible 18th-century certainty that night air was likely to kill you. (The negotiations with the British failed; history doesn't record who won the window war.)

Nowadays if you look up <swim Potomac> you'll find lots of references like "Terrible water quality in the Potomac River is forcing officials to cancel the swimming portion of Washington, D.C.'s, annual 9/11 triathlon." It wouldn't have stopped Teddy Roosevelt. Men should be men, he'd have said.

[eyesup]

Being on the internet is no guarantee of "truthiness".
I've run across articles about presidents skinny dipping in the WH pool. Not so many of them swam in the river. I would have wanted to meet the reporter. She sounded interesting.

The renting of a spot in a bed was common. I have run across that in articles before.
You could end up in a room with 2 or 3 strangers all who had rented a spot.  In a large bed.
It is a far cry from the pampered experiences we get today.

Teddy had asthma and heart issues as a child. His father was disappointed. Teddy made up his mind young to defeat the deficient body he was handed. He did.

Duane

[F.BareSoul]

I understand there are natural rights. We have those rights already, regardless of anything on paper claiming to grant us those rights. If the state does not protect those rights, it is up to us still to see the ways to insure those rights and if needed defend them adequately. The state will not always side with us individually and it would not be wise to assume it will.

[Greenbare Woods]

With all of this in consideration, I believe that T.J. would certainly lend support to us to a great extent. If he had been able to join this forum with us, he probably would agree with us. The guy was complex and wrote volumes for decades. His opinions changed, he couldn't always be on foolproof target, but he always sought the truth and did his best to get behind it.
Jbee

Jefferson was friends with Ben Franklin who wrote about daily "Air Baths" which some have interpreted to mean he spent an hour every morning wandering around Philadelphia naked.  Most people of the 18th century weren't anywhere near as body phobic as they became in the 19th century "Victorian" era.  Nudity was rarely mentioned because it was so common and so assumed that it wasn't a thing to write about.  Like slavery and other customs of the time, nude bodies had been that way forever as the air they breathed.   Puritans were radicals shunned by most "civilized" folks. 

People bathed and swam in rivers commonly, but not in mixed company and women were not equal nor liberated.

That's really a 20th century perspective.  18th century people would not have concerned themselves with such thing.  Bathing, when done, was a tub in the kitchen.  Swimming was whoever was there.   Women were equal but not the same before the 19th century.