Author Topic: Naturist links  (Read 34269 times)

John P

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2016, 04:17:19 AM »
Please note that I didn't say women's breasts should stay covered up, only that naturists shouldn't be the ones advocating women going topless. Instead, we should be trying to get total nudity legalized, and ignoring skimpy clothing. What revealing garments do is to fetishize the body parts which are covered, and the ones which are exposed. I'm all for nudity and I think we should all be! What the textile people wear is their business, and may it bring them joy.

Here's a  pretty reasonable article on the topic, but take a look at the picture that illustrates it. One woman, and plenty of men with cameras. No doubt they're all supporters of equality and freedom, recording the scene for archival reasons! Are we in that crowd?
http://bangordailynews.com/2012/09/19/opinion/the-wonderful-world-of-breasts/

JBG, please inform DF that the bra was invented by a woman, not a man.

jbeegoode

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2016, 07:51:40 AM »


JBG, please inform DF that the bra was invented by a woman, not a man.
There have been bra-like articles of clothing found through history, but we don't know the origins.

A quick wiki and google search also tells that 50% of bra patents are held by women and of course 50% by men.

 Men dominate the fashion world and dictate those rules.
 Men were in control of the sexist business world back in the seventies, when women began to be stuck in bras again for employment and success reasons. Women started wearing them again however in all other instances all by their insecure peer pressured selves.

Personally, I have known no women who actually like bras, except those that wear clothing to hide their true selves.

I don't think that I would put the blame on either sex exclusively. But I'm sure that DF will be interested in those findings.

Incrementally, when I was in Europe in the 60's, the topfee beaches were a new thing. It has since grown to acceptance as bottoms have diminished. The notion that my breast are okay free has grown to give suspect that the rest may also be okay freed. Topfree is a bridge in thinking to breaking the full nudity barrier.

 At the sweat women sometimes come to us and wear only bottoms at first. It can be justified because those women in Europe do it and it is okay. In time, most drop the drawers, too. They learn. They see others topfree and then others bottom free, as well. They follow that lead. I think, like Eyeup, that the strategy should be to conduct support in all effective and incremental arenas. People need to see other people of all body types around them nude and normal. They need to see others topfree, so things like what is in that silly picture can't happen, because it is no longer unusual. There were similar photos when bikinis were introduced. It can also work as a coalition politically. The braless need our support. 

Clothing should be an option, regardless of its reasons, or merits.
Jbee
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Bob Knows

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2016, 04:13:14 PM »
Please note that I didn't say women's breasts should stay covered up, only that naturists shouldn't be the ones advocating women going topless. Instead, we should be trying to get total nudity legalized, and ignoring skimpy clothing.


Yes, I agree with that.   Nudists should be advocating naked, not pants or crotch covers.

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Bob Knows

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2016, 04:16:47 PM »
Men dominate the fashion world and dictate those rules.

That sounds like a load of feminist cowshit to me.  The fashion industry provides what women are buying.   Women totally dominate and are the market place for women's fashions.


Quote
Men were in control of the sexist business world back in the seventies, when women began to be stuck in bras again for employment and success reasons. Women started wearing them again however in all other instances all by their insecure peer pressured selves.


Women, in my life long experience, dress to please other women, the heard.  Women generally ignore the desires and requests of men, including husbands. 

Human bodies are natural, comfortable, and green.
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jbeegoode

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2016, 06:49:44 PM »
Men dominate the fashion world and dictate those rules.

That sounds like a load of feminist cowshit to me.  The fashion industry provides what women are buying.   Women totally dominate and are the market place for women's fashions.


Quote
Men were in control of the sexist business world back in the seventies, when women began to be stuck in bras again for employment and success reasons. Women started wearing them again however in all other instances all by their insecure peer pressured selves.


Women, in my life long experience, dress to please other women, the heard.  Women generally ignore the desires and requests of men, including husbands.
If you google "do men dominate fashion" there is plenty of statistical information. Majority, something like 2/3 to 60%/40% of top designers and controllers are men. Most of them are gay.

Women generally wear bras in the workplaces to be seen as professional as fashions dictate. Enforcement of this comes from other women as much as men. They want to be judged on their work merits, not so much as having nipples being a distraction, or morals looking anything less than stringent, aka conservative. It is akin to uniformity, too. They get used to it and mitigate with lighter bras and outside coverage, or they are unsnapping on the ride home and slipping them off at the door.

Yea Bob, women do take their cues from other women, as men do, too. But, if you point out how something exaggerates something that they feel some insecurity about, they will listen. Women are often more knowledgeable than men about fashion trends, but that doesn't mean that they have better taste. None of this indicates that women don't care what men think and don't want to feel attractive, or are not concerned about being unattractive to men. Many women compete for the opposite sex, as do many men. I don't see it as the generality that you state. All of this stuff is cultural. Culture here and there varies, like workforce to outside of work, picnic, pool party, out on the town. There are many devious ways that people are sold things that they do not need, especially fashion.

This is about stripping away the requirement for clothing. To me, any incriminate is a victory. The places that will unravel textiles first, and then ripple out across the boarder pond are where to make progress. This has been the case historically as we have slowly as a culture allowed more and more skin to be exposed and then an acceptable norm. The beach is the most dramatic example. Trends and changes don't generally flip over night, or even in one swoop. There is an avante guarde which gets notice, then it is picked up in fashion and reaches a broader acceptance, in degrees among the others. The hippies thing changed fashion, the hiphop thing did too, as two examples. Identity and symbols of it are important and must not be overlooked. We need to use this principle, because it works.

Freeing the breast particularly the nipple is important. It started in France and has brought significant changes, including more complete nudity acceptance. The buttocks are another piece of taboo that has been liberated to an extent. When these converge and one is nearly naked, one will see how foolish covering the last vestige, genitals are. People will drop the rest easier. Nude is probably before its time, but if we keep pumping away at it, others will catch up as they near the precipice. Advocating topfreedom as a naturist, isn't advocating for covering the other body parts.

How to make any process/progress work quicker is the key. Advocating body freedom and naturism, people seeing it is a different front in the same war. You weaken the supply line as you assault the front.

Bras are uncomfortable, oppressive, cumbersome, and gender unequal, as anything and more so. It is a weakest link in the chain. It is a good place to start change. The young women that I knew in the early seventies, loved getting rid of the bras. It isn't much of a step further to consider that it is wrong to confine the rest. Some stopped there, some went further.

Yea, we must work toward dropping nudity restrictions, but picking on a weakness toward that goal here and there and lending some support to topple that increment doesn't require so much energy.
Jbee


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eyesup

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2016, 07:13:30 PM »
Quote from: JohnP
. . . only that naturists shouldn't be the ones advocating women going topless.

I am certainly glad that being a naturist doesn’t involve membership. I am extremely selective about joining groups, see here.

What should we or anyone advocate? When did membership in any group or affiliation have any bearing on whether speech of any type should be allowed? I will be extremely interested in why anyone wants to limit what I should vocally support.

Do you believe that the very people that don’t want to allow women to go topless should be the ones advocating for them to do so? That doesn’t appear likely to happen. Some people may only want to go topless and don’t give a hang about nudity, but that doesn’t mean we exclude their efforts or support. If I choose to support a group’s efforts doesn’t mean I want to join their group.

Choosing to limit your options by planning in advance to only participate if certain well defined parameters are met appears to be self-limiting. Demanding full blown capitulation is one way to get what you want but it shouldn’t be the only tactic. A little here and there and before you know it you’re where you wanted to be.

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. It will take time.

Duane

jbeegoode

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2016, 11:54:08 PM »
Social nudity supports women's lib. The situations tend to be more friendly, many other social barriers are forgotten. Things get out front and honest communication to some extent. Like the economic ques dissipating with nudity, so goes the place of men and women. Women's bodies are less sexualized and objectified in socially nude situations. Guys are nicer, and angry women are nicer. We get down to being people without so much cultural context, which is anti-equality. It follows that Breast-free equality supports women's lib. Anti-bra is women's lib. If women see nudity as the equalizer that it can be, it is attractive. We need collaboration with other groups. They need to see nudity as their issue, too. Women, half the population and the fire in the belly of libbers are good allies. Women get things done. Supporting topfree is a hand extended. It is also an opportunity to educate, verbal/written, but also just as an educating experience. It is body freedom in multiple aspects. It just doesn't go far enough.

Body acceptance is an issue for many women that enslaves them and manipulates them. Women are attracted to men in a less visual sexual context than men to them, often. Social nudity, body acceptance, changes that in men to an extent. All of our "flaws" are out there. it is seen that we all have "imperfections" hidden under our clothing. That's liberation. Women's breast are extremely varied, and it's all good, just like the rest of bodies. Topfreedom teaches that, just like nudity.

I just can't see how a woman looking for true liberation and social equality can ignore body freedom. There seems to be a few leaders who are coming from their old repressed hangups, thinking that men will objectify them more if they bare their true bodies. The opposite is true. Certainly not coming from a construction site while walking down the street, but with other nudist, naturist, at a beach, or social event. Eat, drink, play and pray together, naked. It works.

Male naturists ignoring women's issues is a mistake. All naturist supporting topfreedom as liberation AND proposing that it is the same as bottom freedom is a positive message to people that are currently taking the time to think.
Jbee
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Bob Knows

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2017, 06:24:11 PM »
If you google "do men dominate fashion" there is plenty of statistical information. Majority, something like 2/3 to 60%/40% of top designers and controllers are men. Most of them are gay.
Jbee

Its an old political argument.  Does the market control industry, or does industry control the market. 

My understanding of marketing, economics, and industry is that the market rules.  An industry can "create" a market by providing new or innovative products people didn't know they needed, but the market soon ignores products they didn't want.  Industry panders to the market, what customers want to buy.

In women's fashions the industry tries really hard to figure out where women are going and provide what they want.  Clothing designers, manufacturers, and retailers who guess wrong about what women will want to buy (next year) very soon vanish from the industry.  The industry responds to the market, they do not control the market.

Quote
60%/40% of top designers and controllers are men

Businesses are mostly run by men who risk their wealth hoping to guess where the market is going.  That does not imply control of the market, the buying choices of their customers.

Women buy bras because WOMEN choose to do so.  Shirts and/or boob covers have not been required in New York for over a decade, maybe two decades now.   How many women choose not to buy and wear them?  Not enough to notice any on the streets.

Bob
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Bob Knows

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2017, 06:44:18 PM »

Yea Bob, women do take their cues from other women, as men do, too. But, if you point out how something exaggerates something that they feel some insecurity about, they will listen. Women are often more knowledgeable than men about fashion trends, but that doesn't mean that they have better taste. None of this indicates that women don't care what men think and don't want to feel attractive, or are not concerned about being unattractive to men. Many women compete for the opposite sex, as do many men. I don't see it as the generality that you state. All of this stuff is cultural. Culture here and there varies, like workforce to outside of work, picnic, pool party, out on the town. There are many devious ways that people are sold things that they do not need, especially fashion.
Jbee

If you go to any shopping mall or strip mall you can rapidly observe that clothes stores for women greatly outnumber stores for men in both number and size.  Fashion clothes for women is a game, a toy, a dress up fancy.   Often its more about shopping than about the clothes she will wear.  Part of it is about WHO is paying for her clothes.  Women are very often spending money that a MAN earned.  Someone else's money can be easily spent frivolously on expensive blouses, fancy suits, useless makeup products, and celebrity magazines.  Men by and large spend money that We earned and have managed to keep our wives or GFs from spending foolishly.  Men's clothing dominated by being are simple, useful, durable, and inexpensive.  Feminists whine that a woman's shirt costs 4x what a man's shirt costs.  They ignore the market that makes ten thousand men's shirts all the same while making a thousand different blouses for a woman to pic through.  A big part of the market is controlled by who earns the money vs. who spends the money. 

Many women who earn their own clothing money shop at "Thrift" stores for used and discarded fashions that some wife spent her man's money on.  There is a whole industry of Thrift stores for working women.

The way women and men shop is a big part of the way women and men regard our clothes.  Men's clothes are simple, utilitarian, and durable.  Women's clothes are a symbol of her success in spending money.  Their issue is less about being body accepted as about flaunting successful shopping and spending. 

In some real evolutionary way, men are about working and earning but women are about shopping and spending.  Yes, there are wide individual difference in particular people, but the whole market at any shopping mall reflects the majority.





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eyesup

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2017, 02:12:30 AM »
I tell my wife, “I don’t shop, I buy things”. I go in, get what I want and get out. Those big malls have begun to annoy me in significant ways. Not my idea of fun.

eyesup

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2017, 09:53:22 PM »
I tell my wife, “I don’t shop, I buy things”. I go in, get what I want and get out. Those big malls have begun to annoy me in significant ways. Not my idea of fun.
eyesup

I'm pretty sure that is a big part of why more men are nudists.  Our clothes are just a chore we have to buy and do.  Shopping is not a pleasurable activity for most men (except at Home Depot)

Bob
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jbeegoode

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2017, 10:36:23 PM »
If you google "do men dominate fashion" there is plenty of statistical information. Majority, something like 2/3 to 60%/40% of top designers and controllers are men. Most of them are gay.
Jbee

Its an old political argument.  Does the market control industry, or does industry control the market. 

My understanding of marketing, economics, and industry is that the market rules.  An industry can "create" a market by providing new or innovative products people didn't know they needed, but the market soon ignores products they didn't want.  Industry panders to the market, what customers want to buy.

In women's fashions the industry tries really hard to figure out where women are going and provide what they want.  Clothing designers, manufacturers, and retailers who guess wrong about what women will want to buy (next year) very soon vanish from the industry.  The industry responds to the market, they do not control the market.

Quote
60%/40% of top designers and controllers are men

Businesses are mostly run by men who risk their wealth hoping to guess where the market is going.  That does not imply control of the market, the buying choices of their customers.

Women buy bras because WOMEN choose to do so.  Shirts and/or boob covers have not been required in New York for over a decade, maybe two decades now.   How many women choose not to buy and wear them?  Not enough to notice any on the streets.

Bob
I've been hanging out at the mall working and observing again. I suppose that I have to respond to your opinion.The fashion industry and much of the mall culture is a dictate, a con, or sheep to slaughter. The consumerism psychology is not a grassroots leading people to choices. There is a sales which assumes that people want to be lead to choices. They like the attention. I see people buying crap all day for implanted reasons, herd mentality, recognition and they are not all women. The men at malls are just as weird and now the children, too. Buying stuff, first on the block, bigger, better, I'm the groovyist one, many other reasons drive people to buy, and let alone impulse, the icing on the cake. Women are no longer coddled, sitting at home spending daddy's hard earned money. It hasn't been that way for a long time. Modern women deserve to be given more respect than that.
 
The controllers are manufacturing new trends everyday, and adapting to changing circumstance to a point that it is hard for the trendy to keep up with it. They manipulate the market, as much as the market drives them. Fashion is all unnecessary, silly stuff. Not everyone heads to the mall to shop. Most people can't afford such slavery. We are a nation with a significant number of single moms and working women, two paycheck households and partnerships and tight budgets.
Jbee
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Bob Knows

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2017, 12:05:12 AM »
Not everyone heads to the mall to shop. Most people can't afford such slavery. We are a nation with a significant number of single moms and working women, two paycheck households and partnerships and tight budgets.
Jbee

Yes, lots of women can't afford mall shopping as their entertainment. Those women shop at Walmart and thrift stores.  Malls in general have suffered a serious loss of business.  So have big stores like Sears and JCPenney.  Macy's is closing stores.  Demographics are changing. Young women send nude selfies.  Maybe there is hope.

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jbeegoode

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2017, 01:39:05 AM »
I think that that anti-fashion trend that started years ago, where new clothes looked all torn and worn out was an indicator. More people are not into sparkly and prosperous trendy looking as they used to be. The consumerism seems to be geared to teenagers, more, too. They may grow out of it, many rebel. There is hope, among a larger percentage of the population, I suspect. Hope that I'm correct.

Lately, hope feels like all I got in a lot of my life. Hope goes a long way.
Jbee
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nudewalker

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Re: Naturist links
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2017, 02:24:37 AM »
As much as we would like to think that maybe there could be a shift it will happen slowly, if it all. Demographics change all the time but the demise of big stores and malls is due to online shopping.   I have had to spend much time in the big city lately and despite the fact it has been like summer here I have seen no indication that there has been any kind of cultural change. Yes, women are wearing leggings that leave little or nothing to the imagination and are showing a lot of cleavage but most guys are still wearing shorts well below the knee and oversize shirts.  I'm not expecting much anytime soon.
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