Problems and progress with reluctant and difficult partners.

[JOhnGw]

This was a well used topic in the Secret Naturist Society and contained a wealth of helpful hints and information from and for secret and free-range naturists.
By the nature of things it was mostly wives who were the problem partners but I have used the new title to try to be more inclusive.
(Please forgive me if there is already and equivaplent topic - I failed to spot it when I looked.)

My reason for starting the topic is that on this holiday, for the first time that I can remember my wife has not dressed since we arrived at Village naturist du Bosc while I have dressed twice for various necessary reasons - a total reversal of the usual situation.
I would normally have added this post to the "Wife Progress" topic in SNS.

[jbeegoode]

So, you have the problem this time and she has no problem?

When I go to De Anza Resort, I make a point to take no clothing if I can. I have stashed clothing, just for the trip out there for emergencies, but I generally look to wear only a towel for warmth at night, border patrol stops and gassing up. We took four coconut halves on a string (to cover our breasts) and two grass skirts, and once body paint out there for a costume party, that's all that gets worn on the property and surrounding hiking. I understand her attitude, there is just no point in clothing and naked feels great...or maybe she just forgot!

An ex-lover of mine took my dare and went out there and also Blacks Beach (around 500 miles to the coast) with nothing. I pumped gas. Drive-through fast food, border checks, the climb down to the beach, and rest stops, were all done with a short towel that barely wrapped around her. She loved it. She liked the attention at the rest stop, me I'm not excited about intentional exposure of myself.

I like the sense liberation when making a point of being naked. I like the challenge. I like the sense of "naked." It is like hiking naked with no back up, just nature. I like the sense that once it is done, there is no turning back. A drive to De Anza is epic, however. If we head out there in that motorhome this month, we will be self contained and no restaurants, nor shopping, someone else driving. I just may do it no backup myself. We'll see.
Jbee   

[eyesup]

. . . me I'm not excited about intentional exposure of myself.

I like the sense liberation when making a point of being naked. I like the challenge. I like the sense of "naked." It is like hiking naked with no back up, just nature.

That's me, Jbee.  I love the naked experience but not the attention. If it were no big deal, it would be no big deal.

Duane

[nuduke]

Oh dear, I just tacked an appropriate article for this thread in another!  Thanks for recreating it JOhn.  Hang on, I'll cut & paste!
John

[JOhnGw]

So, you have the problem this time and she has no problem?

<snip rest of good post>

Jbee   

It so happened that I needed to drive to the supermarket and also cycle to the textile village shop for supplies.
Both of these were done naked except that I dressed (and undressed) in the supermarket car park and similarly in the approaches to the textile village.

[nuduke]

I just got round to pasting my previous email into this thread to give it a good kick off, so to speak.
No need to read it - it's simply the account I wrote last month

John

The weather has been very good in June/July and I have been very keen to spend as much time as possible in the correct dress.  However, now retired and both of us at home together a lot, one is a bit penned in by the dear wife, so I have been facing into my opportunities much more blatantly.  I was mowing the lower lawn and decided to be utterly uninhibited and not bother to dress to do the sections that are overlooked by an upper window next door because with shrubs etc in full leaf they can't really see the lower half of one.  After I'd finished I made me and the wife a nice cuppa and sitting in the sun remarked that I had mowed the lawn naked and she hadn't noticed despite sitting out in view of me turning round each swathe and doing it for about 20 minutes.  She tutted and moaned a bit but I had the opportunity to exemplify that my naturism is discreet and secret and part of that is about what other people expect to see.  Since she wasn't expecting it she didn't look and had she not been reading I would probably have not been so blatantly naked. 

I've also adopted saying to her when I'd be nude as in "When you next come out be aware I'll probably be naked so make your presence known and I'll cover up".  Generally she's accepted that if she's not there it's sort of invisible and if invisible it's ok.

So I've been pushing it as far as I can indoors and out.  We often have a bedtime cuppa and indeed a morning cuppa in bed.  When I go to make it I go naked and she often says "Put something on, for heaven's sake" or words to that effect, my reply has been 'No'.  This month whilst it's been an issue therefore I've taken the opportunity to explain how one is discreet and can easily avoid answering the door to someone whilst naked or being seen through a window.  I have pointed out my standby shorts and tshirt kept downstairs and on one occasion when the doorbell did ring early morning, how I could walk upstairs, get into a dressing gown and answer the door in adequate time with neither rush or panic or embarrassment.  Because we have been sitting out a lot together I have pointed out how it is not possible to be seen in the appropriate places.

She is still very uneasy if I disrobe next to her on the patio.  "Cover up, for heaven's sake".  On those occasions I cover my crotch with a small square of kikoy or drape shorts over it.  As one might expect a degree of toleration is emerging.  As I say, being naked around her makes her feel uncomfortable most of the time but acceptance of discretion when she's not there is improving.

There has been a tiny bit of discussion about my feelings about naturism and I have emphasised that I accept that she just doesn't get it but that she should understand that there is more to being naked than she realises and that none of it is perverted, sexual or even particularly unusual and being very emphatic that I'm not going to try and explain because it won't make any difference and it will lead to a debate that neither of us will win or even compromise on because we both have very strong views.  I think that did get her thinking though.  I have promised that I would never embarrass her knowingly.

We have been looking for a new house and I have been emphasising that a private garden and not being overlooked is something I would like very much.  It took a bit of refusing to be interested in overlooked houses for the penny to drop and to give me the opportunity to say that I would like to think I could have some naked sunbathing in the garden sometimes and be able to go downstairs nude to make the tea and not worry about her being worried that I'd be on view.

To my delight she seems to have accepted this to quite a large extent and I really think I may have moved her a notch up.  This week we saw a vry nice house with a jacuzzi in the very small, very secluded garden.  In our conversation about the house, I said to her quite clearly that she could not expect me not to be naked in the jacuzzi and be able to walk naked to and from it unencumbered by the nuisance of clothing.  She replied that she would perhaps do the same sometimes.  I replied that I would be delighted if she did and that maybe that would be a positive experience for her and help her understand.

In another house there were high hedges and fences and I was enthusiastic about its seclusion and as we developed the argument about that one she was pointing out all the vulnerabilities to make sure I had recce'd it properly and would be happy to be naked and that she'd be happy that I was hidden.  In another house surrounded by hedges and with very good seclusion (which we have an offer on) she had moved to an acceptance that I would be naked in the garden and could walk into the garden at dawn or midnight freely and without needing to cover up.  In these conversations I have assured her that perforce nudity is sporadic (we are not living in Arizona!) and that I'm not going to start insisting on living a totally naked life and that I'd regulate it to reasonable and discreet proportions as I have told her.

The house we have offered on is a bit cheaper than we'd budgeted for and needed less redecoration etc., and she remarked that one use for the positive financial difference would be to have a jacuzzi in the garden like the other house, where I could be naked!  I felt really good about that as you might imagine.  We can't afford a jacuzzi (she knows that too) but her suggestion was reassuring.

I reckon some progress has been truly made in her willingness to accept that I'm a naturist and that it is unlikely that the world will discover this fact and that we'd become a laughing stock!  The house we're wanting is in a large village and she said that she would not tolerate me becoming the village naturist - a figure of fun with people laughing at her in the post office cue.  So I better keep it quiet or else.  (note, keep it quiet not don't do it!).  This reveals both that there is a bit of acceptance and also the depths of her social fears about nudity.

Finally, I forgot to mention another moment whilst she was moaning:
"Why do you feel you want to be naked all the time?  It's unnatural"
"I'm not going to engage with that, Darling, we've agreed you don't currently and don't want to understand it."
"Well why don't you go off to some naturist place sometimes and be naked there for a day and get it off your chest?"
"But you hate the idea that I should mix with other naturists, you think it's an evil addiction on my part and I will lose my sole amongst naturists because you tell me they are the spawn of satan."
"Yes, but at least you'd be doing it out of the way."
"My naturism is about being free, without clothes and not about seeking to be with other naturists but if you're happy for me to excercise my desire for nakedness in nature, I wouldn't say no to a few days at naturist clubs."
So I think we're perhaps in a frame for permitting social naturism one day (maybe soon!) without concomitant divorce.  The reported conversation was a bit more roundabout than that but no less clear in statements.

Hope the long posts are readable and that you're not bored by my account of the trivial, argumentative detail of my domestic existence!
I felt though that I'd like to share my busy month for being nude and what it's spin offs have been!

[nuduke]

A month or so ago I reported an apparent slight scintilla of slackening of the wife's negative attitude to nudity.  And it is true that her barbs have been a little less pithy of late and some small accommodation seems to have emerged.

Yesterday, in the sunny afternoon, she sat out on the patio and I casually descended into the main part of the garden, just below, and sat in my secluded sunny spot which is some 6 feet below the patio. Wearing just shorts, I slipped them off.  Now, Mrs N was sitting at the edge of the patio such that we could see eachother's head & shoulders but no more.  She was therefore unaware of my nudity of the lower body.  We chatted away as normal and after a while she happened to lean over and saw most of me.  Whilst she tutted and huffed and moved back so she didn't have to look, she didn't ask me to put my shorts on and carried on the conversation as if nothing had happened (which it hadn't!).     

However, I was rather blatantly sunbathing this morning on the patio after breakfast (Puffed Wheat and All Bran!) and she came out into the garden rather unexpectedly seeing me crotch first arrayed on a sun lounger.  She was pretty furious and made me replace my wrap this time.  She then made a rather determined remark that I would have to give it up when if we move to our new house.  This remark came in the context that we had chosen carefully to have a secluded garden and she was well aware why at the time. 

Hey ho - how the winds of female fickleness do fret and flurry in their fluidity and flighty fitfulness!

John

[jbeegoode]

Quite the alliteration! Would you think that she is wanting to put an abrupt end to your "antics" but feels a hint of powerlessness in a loosing battle? That drawing that line to end at the new house, when you two move, is merely a spontaneous threat as she experiences her anger? The new home is a symbol of a perfect ending, a place of peace? It is surely irrational to suppose that you would change, or wouldn't continue to evolve at a new house, as if life stops.

Before a move, my mother once attempted to dictate to me that there would be "new rules" at the new place. She then saw that my enthusiasm for the move disappeared, I was loosing my old entrenched happy old place, She never spoke of the new rules again. She knew that I had to adjust for my happiness. It might have been her new beginning, but I had to own my own idea of new beginning and perspective that would be my happiness... Just sayin'...Perhaps that would be useful...expression of diminished enthusiasm as your dreams are not being included. It is not dishonest or gamey, to bring naturism to the fore of your personal reasons to move.

I could feel your enthusiasm in your previous writing about room to stretch and privacy as a MAJOR interest in the move. She, at the time, was on to that, too. I'm sure that you agree each needs his or her individual place and interests, as well as common.
 
Jbee

[nuduke]

The new home is a symbol of a perfect ending, a place of peace? It is surely irrational to suppose that you would change, or wouldn't continue to evolve at a new house

Very well put.  I think she realises that I'm not about to do anything other than extend my SN activity (and it's a concern for her.  She has said that I better keep my naturism secret - she doesn't want others to find out or for me to become known as the 'Village Naturist' a source of universal ridicule....aimed at her!  There's recognition in that prohibition!).  I don't know to this day if she has worked out why I like walking in the woods.  It's a moot point and I wouldn't like to push it.  She is not a fool and can easily put 2 & 2 together so she may realise but say nothing -  but in fact, on balance I think it has not occurred to her that I'd walk naked in, what to her is, a public place.

your enthusiasm in your previous writing about room to stretch and privacy as a MAJOR interest in the move. She, at the time, was on to that, too. I'm sure that you agree each needs his or her individual place and interests, as well as common

She knows why I've been keen on a secluded garden and a property that's not overlooked through the windows.  We have discussed it perfectly explicitly whilst viewing properties.  'I want a garden or patio', I said quite clearly on more than one occasion, 'that I can get out of bed at dawn and wander out naked or have my morning tea in the sunshine with more freedom and without need for silly scraps of cloth around me'.  Also 'Sorry, I don't care how marvellous this house is, I'm not having any house where I can't walk around naked for your fear that the neighbours might see and I'm not having you cringing in a corner every time you need to take your knickers off.  Not being overlooked is for you as much as me, so that your prejudices about nudity don't become a daily problem in our lives'  Those were pretty close to my words.  At the time she made no comment but no objection either (probably said 'Well that doesn't give you licence to prance around naked all the time' to which I would have acquiesced e.g. ' Tell me I'm not clothed most of the time normally?').  In several gardens she helped me to 'sight' how much they were overlooked.  A couple of times she said stuff like; 'This patio will do for your breakfast'.  She tried to convince me  to buy a house that needed far too much renovation (although it was a spectacular property) with the argument that the garden was the most secluded yet for me to walk in and there was some bordering woodland!  That's in addition to the jacuzzi remarks.  She knows what I'm looking for in future, alright.

In fact, the business of changing house has allowed me to voice my needs for a change and indicate more clearly what it is I would want vis a vis naturism.

I'm not sure if she's swung back from the previously more accommodating place.  Maybe the accommodation was the temporary state!   

John

[tanman]

In several gardens she helped me to 'sight' how much they were overlooked.  A couple of times she said stuff like; 'This patio will do for your breakfast'.  She tried to convince me  to buy a house that needed far too much renovation (although it was a spectacular property) with the argument that the garden was the most secluded yet for me to walk in and there was some bordering woodland!

That's fantastic progress when your wife is looking out to HELP you be safely naked!  Somehow, she's learned some SN craft!

Have fun, naked in your new garden!
Larry (tanman in Texas)

[JOhnGw]

In several gardens she helped me to 'sight' how much they were overlooked.  A couple of times she said stuff like; 'This patio will do for your breakfast'.  She tried to convince me  to buy a house that needed far too much renovation (although it was a spectacular property) with the argument that the garden was the most secluded yet for me to walk in and there was some bordering woodland!

That's fantastic progress when your wife is looking out to HELP you be safely naked!  Somehow, she's learned some SN craft!

Have fun, naked in your new garden!
Larry (tanman in Texas)

Unfortunately it looks to me as though she has learned the SN craft in order to oppose it, but I sincerely hope I'm totally wrong.

Good luck with the move, anyway.

[jbeegoode]

Well, back to, "Hey ho - how the winds of female fickleness do fret and flurry in their fluidity and flighty fitfulness!"

I predict that you will get what you need, you are more determined and focused than she is. Once there, she'll get used to the behavior that she capitulated to, having lost too much ground. All you gotta do is hold fast, get the dream situation and then find a way to get a jaccuzi. She'll come along to some extent with the hot tub and when she sees all of her fears are for not. You've won. Congratulations. Hold your course while she flip flops.
Jbee

[jbeegoode]

My good friend neighbor is changing. She grieved out her lost husband and then met a guy who also lost his spouse, parallel stories. Previous to that her attitude about our nudity was, "I don't want to see that" moving to " Its okay, but I'd rather not see that and I couldn't ever do that." That changed when she spent a weekend in Safford with us at a party and DF and I among a few others were nude the whole time, but still, "I couldn't do that."

Last Sunday, she confessed to DF that she had to put clothes on when before DF arrived, because she and the new guy are always walking around naked. Then she confessed to skinnydipping regularly in his pool with him. She invited us over to swim, when they get back from vacation, so I asked if we could skinnydip. She said sure, but she probably wouldn't join us in the skin. They would dress when others are around. No telling what will happen with her, but it would seem a certainty that anyone who skinnydips regularly will realize the discomfort of swimming costumes and get more entrenched with nude swimming. Good for them.
What a bit of romance will do....
Jbee

[tanman]

What a bit of romance will do....

Ah ... I can vouch for THAT!

Have romantic fun, naked!
Larry (tanman in Texas)

[eyesup]

What a bit of romance will do . . .

Ahhh! Billie Holliday popped right into my mind.

This tune, a dynamite version of "What a Little Moonlight Can Do",from 1935, which has Benny Goodman, Teddy Wilson and a young Billie! Free swinging jazz from top performers and musicians having fun, before they all became superstars. An absolute delight!

Romance is the great motivator. Jbee, she sounds like a wall about to fall. So far there has been no evidence that the universe came to a halt as a result of a little innocent naked time.

It is also possible the source of her reluctance was her late husband. It really doesn't matter, though, does it?
It's progress.

Duane

P.S. Why there are still people that do not like jazz. is beyond me!