NAZ

[kensunwalker]

Look on Mapquest for Dewey, AZ.  Henderson turns into Newton, which enters the national forest.  One place we  hike starts there.

Ken

[nuduke]

Wow. the space!  I can see how it's easy to be deserted and secluded in that territory.
John

[jbeegoode]

Nuduke, with 4 million Phoenicians just down the hill, many with 4x4 and especailly quads, you'd be surprised.
Jbee

[JOhnGw]

Nuduke, with 4 million Phoenicians just down the hill, many with 4x4 and especailly quads, you'd be surprised.
Jbee

My Eurocentric mind read Phoenicians as a Balkan nation from pre-christian times until I looked back at the previous post.

Oh the perils of two nations divided by one language.  

[eyesup]

. . . 4 million Phoenicians just down the hill . .

Had the same reaction as JOhn, except I was excited that the answer to the old question, "What happened to the Phoenicians?", had been solved. 

They were hiding out in Arizona! 

Duane

[kensunwalker]

I have been freehiking and visiting various areas to prepare for Naturists in Arizona (NAZ) events (see kensunwalker.blogspot.com).  We will start our activities September 10th at Shangri La.  Everyone is welcome to join our non-landed club at our website (https://kencarlisle.wixsite.com/naz2), from which we can be contacted.

Ken

[nuduke]

I'm grateful for new knowledge that residents of Phoenix call themselves Phoenicians.  Awesome.
I had previously only known them as an ancient Semitic thalassocratic civilization situated on the western, coastal part of the Fertile Crescent and centred on the coastline of what is now Lebanon, Palestine, Israel and Syria*

John
*Wikipedia! Double bubble - I also learned the word thalassocratic**.  Must drop it into a sentence sometime soon!
**To save you all rushing to your dictionaries, it means rulers of the sea, or ruling via navy or commercial maritime activity***
***I think!

[eyesup]

. . . as an ancient Semitic thalassocratic civilization . . .
. . thalassocratic means rulers of the sea, or ruling via navy or commercial maritime activity.

There is a great deal of speculation that they are also the progenitors of Carthage and of a city, Tarshish,  on the western coast of southwest Spain. They were everywhere in their heyday.

I have heard for years that they had also visited the Americas.
I had found this before on another internet trek on a different subject.

There is a Briton of the same stripe as Thor Heyerdahl attempting a journey across the Atlantic in a replica ship of the Phoenicians from the 4th century B.C.

I suppose it's possible but I have always though it had a bit of the Ancient Alien  mythology attached to it.
Who knows?

Duane

[John P]

Huh. That article says the Phoenicians "had knowledge of astrology and currents". Sailing not by the stars, but by the star signs?

My dad handed me a copy of "Kon-Tiki" when I was a wee lad, and said "There's a great adventure for you". And it was, but of course by the time Heyerdahl did it, he knew what he was aiming for. Suppose you had to set out not knowing how big the ocean was, or whether it fell off a giant waterfall somewhere "out there"? That would take some courage.

[eyesup]

That article says the Phoenicians "had knowledge of astrology and currents". Sailing not by the stars, but by the star signs?

I saw the same sentence, but bit my tongue as I am not an expert on ancient civilizations and the gods they revered. I do know that the Sumerians, Egyptians, Persians and other major nations in ancient times new ASTRONOMY and also believed in ASTROLOGY and it's importance in their religions.

So I gave the writer the benefit of the doubt and assumed either a typo or he simply doesn't know the difference.

Hence my comment about ancient aliens. Fuzzy logic doesn't always imply a more versatile reasoning process. Sometimes it truly is fuzzy. Or maybe he unearthed a new calculus we've never heard of.   
 
Duane

[Greenbare Woods]

I had previously only known them as an ancient Semitic thalassocratic civilization situated on the western, coastal part of the Fertile Crescent and centred on the coastline of what is now Lebanon, Palestine, Israel and Syria*
John

Phoenicians were the sailors of the ancient world for hundreds of years.  In 800 BCE the Egyptians hired them for transportation to mines in Malaysia.  Phoenicians apparently began in what is now Lebanon, but established cities farther west, in Carthage/Libya and on the south of France.  Carthage became the center of Phoenician culture and dominance.  It is said by some that most of the copper that became the "Bronze Age" came from mines in Minnesota on Phoenician ships.  However, Carthage fought a century long war with Rome and finally lost.  That was the end of Phoenicians as a people.  Rome exterminated them.   

[eyesup]

I had previously only known them as an "ancient Semitic thalassocratic civilization situated on the western, coastal part of the Fertile Crescent and centred on the coastline of what is now Lebanon, Palestine, Israel and Syria"

That would make for an extremely large sign on their embassy! 

Suppose you had to set out not knowing how big the ocean was, or whether it fell off a giant waterfall somewhere "out there"?

Navigation in ancient times was no more complicated than keeping the coast in sight as you sailed. If you came to a large bay where you couldn't see the opposite shore, you sailed all the way around it instead of crossing it.

The compass was invented in China in the 4th century BC but not for navigation. It was used in fortune telling. It took another 1200 yrs. before anyone attempted to take to the seas. The Vikings used a crude instrument for navigation and I had always thought they were the 1st to strike out across open water until I started reading about how people had made it to the pacific islands. You can island hop in Indonesia but to get to eastern South Pacific, you had to take the leap.

Sailing out into open water took courage. It was literally the unknown.

Duane

[jbeegoode]

Phoenicians may have lost dominance, but the craft that they developed would stay with us. Even into the Renaissance 16th century galleys w/ Lateen sails dominated the Mediterranean, which hugged the coast and mostly were a seasonal transportation. This would lead me to figure that the Phoenicians were coast huggers. That was the technology. Safe harbors were like stepping stones to ward off pirates along the coast. Those ships like what Columbus floated the currents on, caravels, were new.

The stars were intimately known and big in life since primitive ages all over the planet. I'd not discount the ancient knowledge. Currents are obvious and even mapped, and run along coasts.

"The Mediterranean and the Mediterranean World in the Age of Phillip II" by Fernand Braudel Vol. I
"Renaissance War Galley 1470-1590" Angus Konstam

Apparently, sailing/fishing naked was common practice. The diapers were all about those Bible movies. What would be the point? Why find yourself trying to swim in a soaked and heavy muslin brief? The Bible made reference to naked boating as I remember from back when, being taught in Sunday school.
Jbee

[Greenbare Woods]

Navigation in ancient times was no more complicated than keeping the coast in sight as you sailed. If you came to a large bay where you couldn't see the opposite shore, you sailed all the way around it instead of crossing it.

Water is a highway, not a barrier.  Any skilled navigator knows that the sea is far more dangerous near the shore than in open water.  Being blown onto the rocks is the biggest risk.  Any Phoenician worth his salt would have steered clear of land. 

The compass was invented in China in the 4th century BC but not for navigation. It was used in fortune telling. It took another 1200 yrs. before anyone attempted to take to the seas.

There was a trade industry in Crete in the 6th century BCE.  They manufactured fancy trinkets to exchange with native tribes.  Tens of thousands of Cretan trinkets have been found all over South and Central America, along with many coins and other items from Carthage and the middle east. 

When Julius Caesar conquered the Celtic navy in about 72 BC he wrote in his chronicles that the Celtic navy was comprised of true sailing ships capable of sailing all the oceans of the world.  Those compared to his Roman triremes which were mostly rowed in calm water.   

Cross Atlantic navigation was common for many centuries before Carthage and the Celts lost their wars with Rome and it was ended.

Apparently, sailing/fishing naked was common practice. The diapers were all about those Bible movies. What would be the point? Why find yourself trying to swim in a soaked and heavy muslin brief? The Bible made reference to naked boating as I remember from back when, being taught in Sunday school.
Jbee

Naked and ships go together.  Clothes are a big problem on a long ocean voyage.  Salt water makes for a poor laundry and leaves salt encrusted fabric.  Fresh water was scarce.  Best just leave the clothes in your locker until you hit port again. Nudity on board ship was common in the British Navy in days of sail. 

 

Bob

[eyesup]

The improved freehiking trail on our land looks across to the Bradshaw Mountains where we frequently freehike.  Several weeks ago we freehiked the nearby Mingus Mountains (beautiful).

I've looked at the Bradshaw website Jbee noted and there are many trails listed. I don't know which part of the area is closest to you. Are all the "USFS hiking trails in the Bradshaws" that are listed in busy areas? What's the policy if you decide to do a hike naked?

I know it's US Forest Service so the local laws apply, right? Are  the Mingus Mountains Forest Service also?

Duane