Author Topic: Eradicating Prudism  (Read 4972 times)

Bob Knows

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Eradicating Prudism
« on: March 08, 2017, 03:39:56 AM »
I found this article on-line.  It talks about much of the same opinions that I have formed about the psychosis of prudish hatred of human bodies.  Interesting read.

Eradicating Prudism

" ‘Prudism’ is a mental disorder characterized by an intense, irrational aversion to nudity and erotic conduct. "

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ief9xfy42fTJQMHfSi91o-gTDdX3gNOIziEH8P7WNOM/edit
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jbeegoode

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Re: Eradicating Prudism
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2017, 06:17:41 AM »
Good find. I like:by promoting the correct view that prudes are mentally ill;
by accusing prudes of deliberately spreading their mental illness to uninfected people;
by portraying prudes as child-abusers for teaching body-shame to their own (and other people’s) children;
by accusing prudes of saddling their children with emotional and relationship problems and turning them into criminals who prey on our whole society
Jbee
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milfmog

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Re: Eradicating Prudism
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2017, 01:49:12 PM »
Many years ago, back in my school days, I remember reading a very similar document in the "social history" sessions of a general studies course. It was presented as an example of how people who fail to understand both sides of a topic will sometimes produce utter drivel that, superficially looks reasonable. The paper that was given to us for analysis was actually about "curing homosexuals" It looked good until you got under the skin and started to challenge some of the assertions.

This essay also fails a basic test of credibility in that, although it cites a few references, the author is not identified nor his or her credentials offered up.

Sorry guys, but if the author has so little faith in the quality of the work I shall disregard it as nothing more than hopeful babblings from someone who seems to lack the basic empathy required for effective communication with folks who do not already agree with him.

Have fun,


Ian.
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.

John P

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Re: Eradicating Prudism
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2017, 03:05:19 PM »
What turned me off instantly was the first sentence: "‘Prudism’ is a mental disorder characterized by an intense, irrational aversion to nudity and erotic conduct."

Right there, it links nudity and sex, when what we need to do is separate them. I don't have any major concerns about society's attitude toward sex; I think most people are getting by OK, and anyway, it's an issue for other groups and other forums. I think the issue of liberalizing attitudes about nudity is tackled better if we try to deal with it on its own.

In fact, I'd welcome the idea that some naturists are quite prudish (about sex, obviously, not nudity). It would reinforce the idea that "naturists aren't different from people in general, they just like to be naked". We have all kinds of attitudes about all kinds of things, and that's fine, because we're normal.

Bob Knows

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Re: Eradicating Prudism
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2017, 04:25:00 PM »
Right there, it links nudity and sex, when what we need to do is separate them.

(some other stuff)

In fact, I'd welcome the idea that some naturists are quite prudish (about sex, obviously, not nudity).


I didn't see the author linking nudity and sex.  What he does is to say that prudery applies to both nudity and sex.   You acknowledge, John, that some people are prudish about sex.   Obviously some (other) people are prudish about nudity.  So I think the author is correct that prudery applies to both nudity and sex, anything having to do with our bodies and body functions.

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Bob Knows

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Re: Eradicating Prudism
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2017, 04:32:24 PM »
Many years ago, back in my school days, I remember reading a very similar document in the "social history" sessions of a general studies course. It was presented as an example of how people who fail to understand both sides of a topic will sometimes produce utter drivel that, superficially looks reasonable. The paper that was given to us for analysis was actually about "curing homosexuals" It looked good until you got under the skin and started to challenge some of the assertions.

This essay also fails a basic test of credibility in that, although it cites a few references, the author is not identified nor his or her credentials offered up.
Ian.


I was also disappointed with the lack of author credits, etc., on this essay.  You are also right, Ian, that a lot of what gets written about homosexuality looks good until you get underneath and challenge common assertions.   I don't agree though that every essay has to, or even ought to express "both sides" of every topic.  Most of the time authors who include what they say is the other side have merely put up a straw man they can knock down easily.

Maybe I like this article because I agree with his premise that prudery is a mental dysfunction and a form of self hate and/or misanthropy.    I don't recall ever seeing a counter argument that I found to be valid or compelling. 
Human bodies are natural, comfortable, and green.
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eyesup

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Re: Eradicating Prudism
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2017, 05:47:54 PM »
I agree with many of the ideas regarding behavior of people with regard to body image. We could certainly benefit from a more healthy attitude there. But the attempt to brand a certain group as dangerous is itself dangerous. This tactic was used with skill and precision about 75 years ago with tragic results.

Demonizing a type or group as responsible for all the ills of modern society is taking a very dark path. I thought while reading the article that I might be reading satire. It was way out there in left (or right) field.

Duane
 

jbeegoode

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Re: Eradicating Prudism
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2017, 07:22:23 PM »
This thread gives the definition of Prudish as the definition of the disorder.

Prudish, for all of its rationale disrupts society and gets people dead, or miserable, or perverse, obsessed, and more. All of these things, I think, define as disorder.

I don't know who wrote it, but the affliction of prudery is unhealthy. Also unhealthy are alcoholism, which is often passed the same way, through family lines. Exhibitionism, voyeurism can be very damaging occupations and are classified as as disorder, yet everybody has some of it in degrees. Theses can be unhealthy. Gambling is fun, but it can result in disorder. I think of prudism as disorder, just like Bob.

Credentials don't mean crap, but the text and argument given do. The documentation, which here is quite crude, is important in anything written, or communicated. The form is highfalutin, why I don't know, but the argument is pretty good. I don't write the DSMIII, etc., but this is where those categories start. It ain't my job, but I'd like to see people looking into this and rethinking some of the others, which the APA deciders are compelled to do.

Prudish affects everyone in society around the world. Prudes and prudish behavior needs our help to see clearly. They certainly should not be enabled by the rest of us. Some social mores are just bad ideas. Being upset by the sight of another human body is off of the wall bizarre from my perspective, which has been unmasked, the illusion is gone. It is fact that we are oppressed and influenced by unhealthy prudes and we all need liberation. First thing to do is de-legitimize prudery, as well as educate toward the virtues of a free body culture.
Jbee
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Davie

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Re: Eradicating Prudism
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2017, 07:57:44 PM »
This article fails on a number of issues.
1 It is unsigned and undated.
2. The most recent reference is nearly 20 years old.

It is a theory to be tested and without being subject to peer review is worthless as nothing more than one individuals idea. To be valid the hypothesis would need to be tested by rigorous academic research.

I don't like the idea that because one has a certain point of view a person is mentally ill. I dislike many things, including wearing clothes on the beach. In the view of non-naturists does that make me unwell? I don't like children being over protected, but unless its an extreme,e case then it cannot be more than the natural protective instinct of the parent. The article also ignores other factors like cultural or religious factors. Some faiths do not tolerate nudity. Is the author suggesting that all these people are ill?  Trying to label others as being ill becasue it doesn't fit with your point of view is reminiscent of the darker policies of the 1930s. It is repugnant.

Davie  8)

milfmog

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Re: Eradicating Prudism
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2017, 09:05:25 PM »
It was presented as an example of how people who fail to understand both sides of a topic will sometimes produce utter drivel that, superficially looks reasonable.

I don't agree though that every essay has to, or even ought to express "both sides" of every topic.  Most of the time authors who include what they say is the other side have merely put up a straw man they can knock down easily.
Bob,

I did not say that the author should present both sides of the argument; like you, I generally find that approach pointless. However, failing to consider things from the opposite perspective typically results in poor presentation of shallow arguments.

Have fun,


Ian.
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.

milfmog

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Re: Eradicating Prudism
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2017, 09:12:34 PM »
Credentials don't mean crap, but the text and argument given do.
I have to disagree with your first statement. What's more, I suspect you also disagree with it in the bald form that you stated there; if you really think credentials don't matter try getting a job as a teacher without any...

Clearly, we agree that "text and argument given do" [ matter], but I am a long way from being persuaded by the content of the article. For me, prudism looks like nothing more than the consequence of bad education; the individuals have been taught the wrong thing. That is not an illness; it is ignorance. The best thing about ignorance is that, unlike stupidity, it can be fixed, although fixing it may not be easy.

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Ian.
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.

John P

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Re: Eradicating Prudism
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2017, 10:15:02 PM »
I don't think the author would expect to present both sides of the argument, because we're told "In this article we use a medical model". You'd hardly expect an article on a medical topic to discuss "The case for polio" or even "The case for the common cold". Prudism is a mental virus, to be eradicated! Stamped out utterly!

To continue the analogy, perhaps the last pieces of clothing should be kept cryogenically frozen in a vault somewhere, like the last smallpox bacterium.

eyesup

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Re: Eradicating Prudism
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2017, 05:05:00 PM »
I don't disagree with any of the ideas put forth regarding how prudish behavior affect others. But I have never had a fear of being near a prude. I have seen that behavior regarding dancing, drinking obnoxious behavior (is that a virus too?) and other reactions. The definitions I looked up included the fear of sex and nudity along with a broadly defined collection of fears other than those two. The author is looking to establish a unique definition and that it is a "mental illness" that needs eradicating which will then justify any action taken. THAT is disturbing. There is a difference between a mental illness and quirky behavior. It's a good thing we all aren't the same. It is possible to be extremely different and not be mentally ill.

Quote from: article
Prudes are people who are suffering from prudism.
What is prudism? Prudism is behavior exhibited by prudes. This is circular reasoning and explains nothing. Prudism is behavior, not a virus.

I agree with JohnP that separating prudism from exclusively a reaction to sex or nudity and simply state that it is the end result of ignorance. A prude's behavior is the reaction to an inability to accept the fact that the world is not encompassed by their beliefs. They exist within a much larger world and that is frightening. Prudish behavior and thought has to do with challenging the morality or ethics of a person ill equipped to deal with that confrontation.

My guess, I emphasize the word guess, is that it has to do with self esteem or image. These are handicaps in life and certainly not a mental illness. The minute anyone picks up the gauntlet to eradicate any group or group's thinking it's time to be paying very close attention to that person.

Quote from: Ian
For me, prudism looks like nothing more than the consequence of bad education; the individuals have been taught the wrong thing. That is not an illness; it is ignorance. The best thing about ignorance is that, unlike stupidity, it can be fixed, although fixing it may not be easy.

I have always told my kids that we are all born ignorant and life is a process of moving away from ignorance. If you choose, consciously, to remain ignorant, for whatever reason, you are stupid. Yes, ignorance can be fixed, but the person must be willing. Stupidity can be fixed with luck, extreme exertion and expense. But is it worth it?

"Life is hard! It harder when you're stupid." - John Wayne :)

Duane

jbeegoode

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Re: Eradicating Prudism
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2017, 08:50:30 PM »
John P. wrote: "To continue the analogy, perhaps the last pieces of clothing should be kept cryogenically frozen in a vault somewhere, like the last smallpox bacterium."
There is something about this statement, although far fetched, akin to some science fiction, curiously gives me a sense of calm and peace inside when I picture it. 

We, I, have been persecuted as such by prudes. We have been stigmatized, criminalized, broadly accused of and assumed to be the carriers and purveyors of mental disorder. We have been told that we are immoral and legislated as suchl. We are none of that. It is all unjustified, ignorant and utterly just plain wrong. Any degree of prudishness actually creates outlets and opportunities to fester and enhance the nature of exhibitionism and voyeurism to problematic destructive dimensions, which can and are called a disorder.

Here, we have the shoe on the other foot. Here, we can see how prudes have treated us and let them have an eye for an eye. Here, we do not turn the other cheek. Here, socio-cultural conscripts are turned around. If we are right to be treated like this, then it is right to treat prudes like this, too. Is this how to treat people? Some of you object to that and have supported a "live and let live" ideal quite strongly here. I share that ideal. However, prudery is a social toxin that does need to be eradicated and it does get extremely out of hand and compulsive. At times, the delineation of defining perversion is when you get hung up on it, when you need it for gratification and that is something to think about. I see no reason why prudery cannot be treated as any other disorder, when it becomes harmful. To be upset by the sight of a human body is not a moral, sociological, cultural question. It is sick weird, a foolish blind more, irrational...cripe, it is stupid.

This article makes sense, maybe not great sense, polished sense, but there is a good argument in there. I haven't yet, dug into the references, they may even be a hoax for all I know. So, this being said, it leads me into response to another disagreement. I wrote "Credentials don't mean crap, but the text and argument given do." I confess that I mis-spoke by way of such a strong statement, but I'd like to correct that now by putting it better.

A teacher (I have a BA in education, I have taught school) can be educated. But, the best teachers, most effective, for many reasons as well as the less scholastic notions, are those that learned over years in the classroom, possessed unique personalities, are empathetic, passionate, insightful, etc. An education and degree can only go so far. I know a Ph.D. who was on a school board, and a governed of a private school. He had to fill in a few weeks in the classroom. He was eaten alive. He was an abject failure. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to ride on a jet plane that wasn't designed by an engineer with an education. Working with people is different.
Another "working with people" activity is psychology. I have a Masters degree in that with several years experience over decades. Psychology has had a donor driven, insurance provider profit driven and ivory tower shell over it, for decades. Behavioral modification, and evidence based has its place and it is grounding, but it has been like a road block to many a much more effective means. Prevailing psychological study is in its infancy. Here to, there are many practitioners that can run circles around most Ph.D.'s. I could go on and on, but I digress. Point is that academia in these two schools has been a hindrance to millions who could have been helped...better.

Peer review papers in these two schools can be written by anybody, regardless of credentials. Letters behind the name are of a very minor significance to the rest of the body of the presentation. It is an argument first, a debate and expected to be challenged. One has to sometimes limit what one says, which sometimes excludes some very useful information. It is an intellectual game, and a power struggle, very positional. Positional attitudes often close minds and also, power and position are at risk, so defensive acts arise that damage the free flow. The basic reason, to help others, is generally lost in the game. I do have a chip on my shoulder. It weighs a ton. I am adverse to knowing that people are suffering needlessly.

Among us within our responses, I think that we have shown that is position presented by whoever wrote this, could use some academic debate.

I have indeed felt very uncomfortable near a prude. Fearful, threatened, attacked. My life, my freedom, my wealth, and my human dignity can be at risk, clearly and arguably. A prude feels the same fearfulness, threatened, and attacked. However, a prudes reaction is irrational, conditioned and harmful to others.

I get tired of being defensive. Offensive often makes positional prudes dig in even deeper, but I'm tired of being nice in the face of obnoxious ignorance. Sometimes countering rude with rude doesn't accomplish anything, but it feels good. I'll call a prude a prude. They hate that. Twice now, I've had the very person that is attacking our lifestyle make a big point of trying to explain that they are not a prude, very defensively, without my provocation. They both went on and on. I think that prudes should be branded prudes as a tactic. I most likely wouldn't do it during an encounter, unless attacked, but in discussion, or public verbal debate, probably, particularly if I know that I'll get nowhere anyway. What the heck, they insulted my humanity and ticked me off. Eye for an eye. Anyone who has a problem with the sight of a nude human body is a prude, call a prude a prude. Prude is a dirty word. Nobody identifies as a prude. They may even try to prove it in someway, or fall back on "what about the kids," which is easily picked apart.
Jbee
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JOhnGw

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Re: Eradicating Prudism
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2017, 09:59:17 PM »
Quote from: article
Prudes are people who are suffering from prudism.

Wrong:
Nudists are people who suffer from prudism.

Think about it.  ???
JOhn

Do not do unto others as you would that they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same.
George Bernard Shaw, Maxims for Revolutionaries