Author Topic: The Legal Front  (Read 8811 times)

eyesup

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2017, 06:01:05 PM »
Quote from: Jbee
It comes across to me as a western concept of religion. Many eastern religions may or may not be concerned with mystical beings.
The article does in fact mention that  it is important to avoid a narrow definition under the heading “Problematic Definitions of Religion”. Most likely the reason it has a western flavor is because it was written by people in western civilization.

What is important to remember is that in a world where you can travel to the other side of the globe in less than a day, you will encounter people that have differing views. If those people choose to come here to live our laws have to work with them even though they have chosen to adopt America as a home. Religion and it’s definitions, being outside the purview of the law,  cannot be under the control of the state. Religion, I prefer the word faith *, can be anything you want.

Faith groups must be non-profit in order to be exempt from taxation. Hence the entrance of the IRS and Congress into the mix. If you are willing to forego the tax breaks, there is nothing to hold you from practicing any faith you choose. If you practice your faith and do not worry about the state you are actually pretty free to worship as you see fit. Until and if you break the law.

What I am getting at is a complete and total separation from the state. Pay your taxes and follow the laws that everyone else does and the government will leave you alone. The minute you buy property, build structures, collect monies to pay for it and then ask the government to give you an exempt status because you are a group of faith believers, you have entered into an agreement with the government and are subject to their rules.

Quote from: Jbee
The court link that you provided didn't work, for some tech reason.
Didn’t work for me either. Here it is as an address. If it still doesn’t work, type it in. ;)
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Religion

It is true that religious persecution played a hand in the forming of this country and as a result the intent was to try and guarantee that those tactics would not be brought here. They succeeded in preventing a state religion and failed in allowing any faith to flower. It wasn’t intentional but that was how it worked out.

Quote
Religious freedom has the potential to knock down all existing anti-nudity laws, requiring a redress. The issues of viewing the naked body as not dangerous, but natural, is included and established in a legal argument in the ruling.
I am wary of taking shortcuts. I would not want to have to swear to any government agency that I am a practicing believer of some group in order to be allowed to walk about naked. This is the sort of bad influence I worry about in cases of the government intervening in matters of faith. The law of unintended consequences will eventually rear it’s head.

Frustration at the slow pace of progress and the attempt to speed things up has more often than not made people aware of that law.

Duane

* For me there are three different words at use here; church, religion and faith. Faith is what I have that no one can take from me. Religion is the organized group of like believers in any particular faith and they work with governments and communities to it’s benefit. Church is the building that the believers meet in and use. All three of these are regularly interchangeable. I prefer to keep them separate for my own reasons.

nudewalker

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2017, 07:12:57 PM »
I like the idea of keeping church, religion and faith as separate entities. My faith is governed by any number of influences, knowledge gained and life experiences. The religion I practice is with a number of like minded souls and we have much in common but I do not agree and march lockstep with them. And yes, we do gather in a church to worship as a group and provide support for each other. There has been disagreements between us, some of the people question the motives of the pastor's sermons and some members do shun me after discovering my views on nudity or what I refer to as the sanctity of the body.

But the problem as I see it is not that religion itself is the culprit but those who use religion as a means of control. And the religion is controlled by the government with the idea of tax exempt status. But religious persecution still exists; for example if I were not aligned with the Christian religion that I follow most likely then I would be a Wiccan. As Jesus said, "Pray to your Father in private" so I pray in nature and usually skyclad.

Frustrated? Yes! Worth creating a splinter group from my faith to gain government status to be able to live nude? No, just pray for patience and enlightenment. Hopeful that sooner than later people will come to the conclusion that the human body is the greatest work of the "Creator" and needs to be seen and not hidden away!
"Always do what you are afraid to do"-Emerson

jbeegoode

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2017, 10:04:12 PM »
Quote from: Jbee
It comes across to me as a western concept of religion. Many eastern religions may or may not be concerned with mystical beings.


What is important to remember is that in a world where you can travel to the other side of the globe in less than a day, you will encounter people that have differing views. If those people choose to come here to live our laws have to work with them even though they have chosen to adopt America as a home. Religion and it’s definitions, being outside the purview of the law,  cannot be under the control of the state. Religion, I prefer the word faith *, can be anything you want.

Faith groups must be non-profit in order to be exempt from taxation. Hence the entrance of the IRS and Congress into the mix. If you are willing to forego the tax breaks, there is nothing to hold you from practicing any faith you choose. If you practice your faith and do not worry about the state you are actually pretty free to worship as you see fit. Until and if you break the law.

What I am getting at is a complete and total separation from the state. Pay your taxes and follow the laws that everyone else does and the government will leave you alone. The minute you buy property, build structures, collect monies to pay for it and then ask the government to give you an exempt status because you are a group of faith believers, you have entered into an agreement with the government and are subject to their rules.

Quote from: Jbee
The court link that you provided didn't work, for some tech reason.
Didn’t work for me either. Here it is as an address. If it still doesn’t work, type it in. ;)
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Religion

It is true that religious persecution played a hand in the forming of this country and as a result the intent was to try and guarantee that those tactics would not be brought here. They succeeded in preventing a state religion and failed in allowing any faith to flower. It wasn’t intentional but that was how it worked out.

Quote
Religious freedom has the potential to knock down all existing anti-nudity laws, requiring a redress. The issues of viewing the naked body as not dangerous, but natural, is included and established in a legal argument in the ruling.
I am wary of taking shortcuts. I would not want to have to swear to any government agency that I am a practicing believer of some group in order to be allowed to walk about naked. This is the sort of bad influence I worry about in cases of the government intervening in matters of faith. The law of unintended consequences will eventually rear it’s head.

Frustration at the slow pace of progress and the attempt to speed things up has more often than not made people aware of that law.

Duane

* For me there are three different words at use here; church, religion and faith. Faith is what I have that no one can take from me. Religion is the organized group of like believers in any particular faith and they work with governments and communities to it’s benefit. Church is the building that the believers meet in and use. All three of these are regularly interchangeable. I prefer to keep them separate for my own reasons.
You are saying that an unprotected unorganized practice of faith including nudity, as a group or as an individual spiritual endeavor would be better protected in a U.S. court? This would be better than an organized recognized religious practice legally defined as a "church" which has made a deal with the devil to keep the IRS off of their backs and allowed some degree of interference with their right to practice as they see fit. Did I get what you’re saying right?

In contrast, I'm proposing under the assumption that courts like/prefer entities and legal standing, a veneer of establishment, structure and to have something that they can relate to in their limited experience. These are things that they respect more readily than just a person who finds a calling, or finds an ancient practice potentially liberating into the highest of spiritual sense.

I don't know what the history of challenges to the exercise clause and to establishment clause has been in detail. Were these rights defended in court by organized religion, or just people with a relationship with their God. It sounds like a talk with a lawyer familiar with such stuff would solve that. But in lieu of that effort and probably expense, I would think that the establishment clause would apply to the IRS and these guidelines defining a "church." IRS use would have to not create a state requirement directing the nature of a church's practices. A church is a space where a religion practices and gathers, which the government must not interfere with by taxation. The exemption, based on that, allows them to collect donations and not be charged, or burdened with financial pressure of taxes. Like taking away someone’s church for unpaid taxes can be a manipulation to interfere with an unpopular church by a state. The state can't play favorites.

Like that old sweat that we had, we were considering taking the exemption. It was functioning in the same capacity of many tax exempt churches. It just wasn't labeled as a "church." There is also protection for zoning, and the nudity that way. The tenants as a “church” would be the very simple rules.

A religion can be practiced anywhere, a gathering in a living room, or catacomb. A religion can be as simply defined as what one feels in a rock, a tree, or the wind.

     
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jbeegoode

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2017, 10:12:13 PM »
JBEE MAKES A CONFESSION!

I think that I began thinking about this when my spiritual practice began to conflict with those neighbors threats from next door. I had been doing consciousness altering sadhanas, running off to India to learn more, studying psychology, energy, molecular biology, etc. One sadhana that I was taught, was to spend time focused on just the task at hand, several times each day. The idea is to bring habitual focus on the here and now, to bring heighten awareness in the presence, which quiets the mind, brings on a more natural state, and a detachment. It is a form of meditation, which has been shown to create a neuro-biological shift, especially when coupled with other practices. This, or similar to that, is a form of sadhana going back millennia in India. It is a sacred practice. So, I had been doing this with other practices with very good, even amazing results. Then, I began to notice this in my daily nudity. For example, I began to just walk barefoot all over, focused on what is, across the bedrock surface out back, sometimes for hours. I would sit naked in the wind and fall into altered states which would affect me past that time sitting. The more I did this the better result, the deeper the connection, the quieter the mind, etc. There was more, I'm not preaching or suggesting the practice here, so it won't get explained. It applied to naturism in high mountains, deserts, connection with what one might call the divine presence.

When doing this, I had had to limit my movement, always concerned with someone causing legal trouble. For a while, the threat gave me more awareness, but then became more of a distraction to the state of consciousness. Then BANG! Those neighbors made it feel dangerous. I realized that the threat of the law was definitively interfering with my sacred spiritual sadhana, a conflict. That is when I began to ponder this legal question. I realized that the state was interfering with my inalienable rights in profound ways. Not just imposing an unjustified expression of an old more founded in another man's religion and associated insecurities, but my freedom to exercise with my connection with what is sacred. I am certain that I have a valid point, my 1st Amendment Rights are being denied. I ponder if a judgement can be made to protect my right to this. Now, it is more than the rights to my own body, opposed to just those silly, yet damaging laws of the clothing obsessed world, or the perfectly ludicrous notion that the vision of a natural human form is damaging to a child, or anyone.

I wonder how anyone might go about accomplishing the correction of the laws. I ponder if I would be up for such a thing. Is it feasible, and practical? So, this legal stuff popped up and I thought what the heck, "Why keep all of this pondering fun to myself?" Let's share. Maybe somebody else can suggest that I'm crazy, or maybe someone has a fresh idea as how to pursue some liberation of the deep spiritual to all the way to simply enjoying sunshine sitting on a rock next to a brook. 

So, assuming that my sense of spirituality is not anyone else’s here, but it appears to be valid sincere path for Jbee, and probably others. Also, assuming that there is a shared belief and support of the right of everyone to follow a personal spiritual practice as they understand it. How might this be implemented? Is it practical, or doable when coupled with the issues contained in that positive ruling on topfree equality and the states burden to prove that nudity is damaging? Would a positive ruling be a strong step to establish precedent for the rest of the naturist to get their interests through the courts?
Who, with sincere conviction, would come out in public, submit to arrest, bare the time and stress of court, be publicly labeled as the naked guy, etc. probably consuming a great deal of time, effort, freedom  and life to accomplish this, and then there’s the monetary issues?
Jbee

I haven’t seen much evidence that people have grasped that naturism can be a powerful spiritual experience and that it may be protected as free exercise. The experience of naturism is different and in different degrees for every body. Does it mean that the establishment clause means no interference in its definition by the state, so that in a wood alone is a religious act, as much as sitting in a group in a cathedral? Does the “exercise clause guarantee” override worship in a nude state, and not hidden? It is one thing to have to hide and limit practice, another do it in public as the purpose. In other words minding your own business in public, opposed to making the public pawns in your own game. Generally, all I see is people with this concept of a church or temple, people gathered, faith in a belief, a god of some type and an authority for guidance, deciding the perspective of the issue. That isn’t fair to the rest of us. It doesn’t include the individual, but only the organizations and those religions with leaders, not to say that that is a bad thing.

I think that people have a right to pursue what they need to without interference, when it does no harm.
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John P

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2017, 11:33:26 PM »
JBEE MAKES A CONFESSION!
Forgiveness when you confess all. Describe the juicy bits in full detail, please.

I think the work of creating a nude-tolerant religion has been done already: there is a Wiccan church:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_and_School_of_Wicca

If the Wiccans worship skyclad, and they're a recognized church, surely their right to do so can't be challenged? Maybe there have been court cases already. (But one has to note, Wiccans don't generally go around naked all the time, only as part of worship, if they do it at all.)

And this particular group seems to have shut down, but there was the Svobodniki sect of the Doukhobors in Canada, though they weren't just peacefully going about their business:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedomites
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 11:37:25 PM by John P »

jbeegoode

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2017, 12:54:14 AM »
The Wiccans practice only during ritual for the most part, not as walking meditation, not getting in trouble outside of their places of worship.
The Freedomite/ Sons of Freedom/Dojv...something, Canadians were sometimes bombing and burning public utilities while naked. I'm pretty sure that that naked protest isn't quite what I'm going for.  ;D I think that just one going about doing what one needs to for personal reasons and at times it happens in public might just hold up better in court.

Man, the Canadians have a history of yanking people's kids out from under them and trying to destroy their identities, don't they? First I read about Native American abuses, and recently and now this persecution. The world changes. It always seems to be people without body hangups.... ::) Guess on thing leads to another, both in what people do and what goes on in minds.
Jbee
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Greenbare Woods

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2017, 03:56:55 PM »
Quote
I haven’t seen much evidence that people have grasped that naturism can be a powerful spiritual experience and that it may be protected as free exercise.

I see naked as NORMAL human life.   If life is a spiritual experience than so is nudity, but most of life is normally naked.  Perhaps nude feels spiritual because it is so different from what is allowed by a controlling and repressive culture. 

Fewer Wiccans are doing naked rituals any more, and even at pagan gatherings where clothing is optional there are few naked people to be seen.  Cultural oppression is insidious and pervasive.  Its hard for one small religious belief to fight them when all the converts were taught to cover or else from day 1.

 



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To see more of Bob you can view his personal photo page
http://www.photos.bradkemp.com/greenbare.html

jbeegoode

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2017, 06:43:18 PM »
Quote
I haven’t seen much evidence that people have grasped that naturism can be a powerful spiritual experience and that it may be protected as free exercise.

I see naked as NORMAL human life.   If life is a spiritual experience than so is nudity, but most of life is normally naked.  Perhaps nude feels spiritual because it is so different from what is allowed by a controlling and repressive culture. 

Fewer Wiccans are doing naked rituals any more, and even at pagan gatherings where clothing is optional there are few naked people to be seen.  Cultural oppression is insidious and pervasive.  Its hard for one small religious belief to fight them when all the converts were taught to cover or else from day 1.

 
My take would be that spiritual maybe the normal state of humanity. Clothing obsession cuts us off from that important spiritual piece of ourselves that is realized in nudity. And as what you say.
Jbee
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eyesup

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2017, 07:37:47 PM »
Quote from: Jbee
You are saying that an unprotected unorganized practice of faith including nudity, as a group or as an individual spiritual endeavor would be better protected in a U.S. court? This would be better than an organized recognized religious practice legally defined as a "church" which has made a deal with the devil to keep the IRS off of their backs and allowed some degree of interference with their right to practice as they see fit. Did I get what you’re saying right?
No, I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying that faith/religion/church is a personal choice. You live your life based on whatever principles you believe. The government isn’t involved AT ALL! What you believe, what you define as your faith is between you and God, if you believe in Him. It is also between you and others of the same faith.

If and only if you would prefer to conduct your faith and faith journey with guarantees provided by laws based on the 1st amendment, you would at that point be subject to overview by that government. I’m saying that I would personally choose to not take advantage of that so as to keep the government out of my faith.

Quote
These are things that they (the courts) respect more readily than just a person who finds a calling, or finds an ancient practice potentially liberating into the highest of spiritual sense.
I would say that is a legalism used by the government to bring all faiths into the court under a leveling definition. The courts are forbidden by the establishment clause from defining religion. Yet they are occasionally called to mediate in religious matters that impinge on the law.

When people end up in a court and the matter is a religious one there needs to be a structure for the jurists to base their opinions on. Hence the SCOTUS means of recognizing a religion. But this is only for court proceedings. If a faith/religion/church strays from their faith and breaks the law, criminal or tax, they WILL end up in court. Rules must be in place to deal with that.

Outside of breaking laws, if you never seek any relief from the laws everyone else has to follow, (you must follow the same laws or pay the penalty), you are under no obligation to adhere to any definition of a faith, religion or church.

Every now and then during an election cycle you will hear about some church or pastor bending the rules by advocating for or against a candidate or referendum. The government has rules about that with regard to churches. If a faith/religion/church has taken advantage of the 501(C)(3) rules of the IRS, by that action they are limited in what they say with regard to any election. If you have no special standing with the government they hold no sway over you and you can advocate just like any other citizen.

Jbee, I think you and I see eye to eye here, but like multiple witnesses at an intersection where an accident occurs, what happened depends on where you were standing and how clear your view was of the incident. In the example of witnessing an accident, it is comparable to the understanding of a faith achieved through years of study, prayer, meditation and visiting with fellow believers.

I posted this link because I thought we all would welcome a little light shining in the distance to bear us up that even though it is a small step it is a reassuring one in that there are judges on the bench that can reason and think.

I had no thought of this as a religious issue although you and others see it that way, I can see why you embrace it as a spiritual right. Fortunately for all of us, we live where this is possible.

Duane


eyesup

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2017, 07:43:51 PM »
With regard  to the natural state of a human and nudity, I am in the overlapping relationship group of a Venn Diagram that includes both Jbee and Bob. I think we are in our own separate groups but have much in common so when we are standing in the common group, we do in fact see eye-to-eye.

 ;D  ;D  ;D

Duane

jbeegoode

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2017, 01:29:28 AM »
With regard  to the natural state of a human and nudity, I am in the overlapping relationship group of a Venn Diagram that includes both Jbee and Bob. I think we are in our own separate groups but have much in common so when we are standing in the common group, we do in fact see eye-to-eye.

 ;D  ;D  ;D

Duane
Viva La Difference! Jus' workin' out a little blind justice.  8)
Jbee ;D
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Peter S

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2017, 01:01:53 PM »
Quote
we do in fact see eye-to-eye.

You sure about that? How tall are you? Will I need a box to stand on?
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jbeegoode

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2017, 06:37:48 PM »
I found that it depends on the slope of the hill you're standing on.
Jbee
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eyesup

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2017, 05:57:22 AM »
No Peter, No need for a box. The images are clear enough by the concepts described.  :D

and Jbee, it also depends on how fast you are sliding down that slope. :-\

Duane



Peter S

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Re: The Legal Front
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2017, 10:53:51 AM »

Quote

Fewer Wiccans are doing naked rituals any more, and even at pagan gatherings where clothing is optional there are few naked people to be seen.  Cultural oppression is insidious and pervasive. 
 

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/610442/Naked-festival-nude-Beltane-Fire-Festival-Edinburgh

They just had a Beltane fire festival in Scotland, and although the headline screams "naked" the pictures show that there was nothing more than topless going on.

peter
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