Author Topic: How times have changed  (Read 1127 times)

Peter S

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How times have changed
« on: May 03, 2017, 10:26:01 AM »
https://dose.com/a-brief-humiliating-history-of-swimming-in-gym-class-350a58e3e5d6

The writer seems clearly on the side of covering up to avoid embarrassment, despite also recording at least one instance of the coverings providing just as much embarrassment. What was it drove the US from compulsory nudity to compulsory cover-up?

peter
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Bob Knows

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Re: How times have changed
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2017, 03:09:07 PM »
Quote
It meant too much time spent in a musty locker room and swimsuits that never really dried, but molded by the end of the semester.

Like moldy damp suits are supposed to be better than skin which dries off right away. 

Pathetic silly goose.



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nudewalker

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Re: How times have changed
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2017, 04:01:53 PM »
Since I grew up in that era the only way to explain it is those pupils who felt the shame or were teased became the parents and educators who placed the non-nudity rules in effect. I did get taken aback about the boys skinny dipping in the creek because where I grew up the girls were with us. Also, we understood that there were varying degrees of maturity, some of us just developed faster than others. A lot of a more mature way of looking at life which comes from growing up in or near an agricultural area as the so called "facts of life" have to be explained sooner.
"Always do what you are afraid to do"-Emerson

eyesup

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Re: How times have changed
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2017, 07:30:59 PM »
I don't know where to begin.

Check out the website's 'About Us' statement:
Quote
DOSE: THE WORLD’S FIRST PERFORMANCE STUDIO

Dose Studios is an elite creative shop that uses predictive tech to create and distribute social content for brands.

Due to the lack of testing in the traditional creative process, brands have a hard time predicting what social content will resonate.

Dose’s data-driven creative process minimizes the guesswork so brands can feel confident their content will perform.

They describe themselves as "elite" in the arena of image manipulation.
They market to a specific group, products that appeal to that group and then announce that they have displayed success in that limited market. Hmmmm!

The author appears in her photo to be in the late 20's to early 30's. She chooses to work at a place where image is vital and is the primary product and means of exchange. As is the case in a venting article like this, all information gathered actually supports the stated position. Hmmmm!

In this article and the scanned image of the newspaper article, all negative aspects presented appear to be from parents with similar experiences. Not what I would call a comprehensive write-up. This is not intended to look at the practice of a nude policy at pools. She dislikes it and her position is that everyone like her should stand in unity against it.

Learning to be involved in group activities is part of growing up. Not all events will be pleasant or warm and fuzzy, contrary to popular expectation. Neither my Jr. High or Sr. High school had pools. I didn't have swimming in my PE class. We had a YMCA in my town but we also had an Olympic size competition public pool about 2 miles from my house. In the summer we walked there and for 15 cents could spend a whole day swimming.

The locker room was huge with benches. You changed your clothes, put them in a wire basket for safekeeping and went through the footbath, if it had water in it, and shower before going into the pool.

Both in Jr High and High school and in the pool changing room we were in large rooms full of naked men and boys. I never at any time had any issue with that. We were brought up to believe that the world was full of others that might be different and we were expected to know that and treat them all the same.

The hangups I see in this 'laggers' article seem to be rooted in a less than stellar performance by parents at preparing their children for the real world. So many of the events remembered as 'traumatic' can be dealt with through practical discussion with your kids. It's what we did, and we see repeated examples by our kids that those discussions had real results.

How sad for the kids to not know how to deal with . . Hjinks! . . Pranks! and Jokesters!
Things you will most definitely encounter in life.

Deal with it!
Duane


jbeegoode

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Re: How times have changed
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2017, 07:51:45 PM »
The link isn't working for me.

I think about the abuse, the fear, the little hell hole that locker rooms used to be. The slow developers feared ridicule, or talk would get out that they were less than manly. There was a push to be manly. The locker rooms and group showers were not well supervised, so rat tails, bullying, etc. made people want to just get out of it fast. In P.E. we were taught to be competitive, manly, man-up, don't be a sissy, or girlish. It didn't do much for our attitudes toward women and it was to destroy any feminine aspects to our personalities. We were placed into a survive the ordeal mode, or be abused, or to be with the bullys. The girls were taught to be housewives and passive. I don't know what went on in their lockers, but they were supposed to be lesser. There was certainly no mixes of the sexes. I remember a boy was tricked into walking out of the male showers nude and into the indoor pool where the girls were swimming in 1967. He didn't come back to school for a week or so, the immaculate embarrassment. I remember I liked PE, but the locker-room was just horrible without supervision.

This crap instead of camaraderie didn't wash well. There was a transition while I was away. When I got back into a locker room as a teacher there was no mandatory showers for the usual health reasons, and no kids were showering. The sports kids after school were showering. PE started as a mandatory program in schools in the 60's under President Kennedy. It was important and it was about health. Kids were taught to shower.

How did this come about? The authorities see forcing/ordering kids to shower for health reasons is too close to rape. A teacher doesn't want to let any innuendo that he/she may be getting a kick out of stripping kids. Probably a school lawyer taking the side of caution, as they do. Then, it spreads.  The PE instructor doesn't want to bully in the new no tolerance anti-bully school culture. He doesn't want to embarrass kids by calling them sissys when they don't proudly walk around a mater of fact nude. The kids are given choice. They save a huge bundle on laundry bills for all of those towels. It saves time for more physical activity when they don't take the time to shower.

There may have been a reason for the lack of locker-room supervision besides laziness. Who wants to stand around supervising a bunch of kids changing and showering. You have to take away their privacy, and you might have people wonder why you watch them.

The swimming nude issue came once a year when the laundry for the speedo suits didn't get done in time. I always suspected a fix to teach a lesson to teach kids to be more comfortable in their skin, as it happened each year once about the same time for several years. What was the true reason for the coincidence, I don't know. Maybe the laundry and the coach had graft going. Coach Dave Diget would yell, "Look there are no swimsuits, but we are swimming anyway, stop acting like girls."

With the coed trend, skinny dipping has taken a hit.

So, I don't know why nudity in the US went from one extreme to the other, but....there are reasons right or wrong and we are stuck with the result. We can't teach body freedom in school, in any way, let alone forcing the kids to be nude in the school pool. Many districts can't afford a pool. It is up to us to educate in the street and on the internet where kids learn off of their sex education. Perhaps, when social nudity becomes a non-issue never mentioned in school and people have memories of itchy crotch rot, nudity concerns buried in bureaucratic morass, people will come to us for the education that they never received in health class. Nobody is telling them that it ain't right, but parents and peers. Peers change, but parents are challenged. The internet may become the teacher, flawed as it is. When I go to anything social nudity, nude, naked, naturist, naturism, I find a majority positive comments and then those nasty, "You ugly naked" ignorant remarks. Every so often, I take the time to look these up, when I have some time and add my positive two bits. The downside is the sexualization of the nude, which is prevalent.

There must be many reasons for the change, but we are stuck here. At least the locker rooms are not peppered with separate changing rooms. They have to change together. Still, many are stripping down to only underwear, which is very unhealthy after a sweaty workout. They tend to quietly keep their backs to each other. It just isn't a healthy health class anymore.
Jbee
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eyesup

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Re: How times have changed
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2017, 12:12:01 AM »
Jbee, did you try to cut and paste the link text to your browser?

I must have lived in a Kansas bubble. We had cliques in HS but the majority of kids just didn't get all wound up about picking on others. At least it never happened to me or my friends and I don't recall witnessing any. So I don't have personal history there.

Coaches would come into the shower if there were any noises they didn't recognize as normal. They just walked in and told those involved in the action to cool off or get out. If there was a fight, everyone in the fight got licks. As is. No bickering about who did what. As a result there weren't many fights in the locker room.

I think my PE classes were just fine. Apparently things have gone south.

Duane


Peter S

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Re: How times have changed
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2017, 06:57:41 AM »
Fascinating insights to American schooldays, chaps. At my school PE and sports were followed by showers (no cubicles, just one big shower with iffy water supply) and I don't recall any of the humiliations or other horrors described - we stripped, we showered, we dried, we dressed.

Strikes me the bullying and humiliations have just moved from the changing room to the chat room.

Peter
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Bob Knows

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Re: How times have changed
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2017, 02:05:19 PM »
The locker room was huge with benches. You changed your clothes, put them in a wire basket for safekeeping and went through the footbath, if it had water in it, and shower before going into the pool.

Both in Jr High and High school and in the pool changing room we were in large rooms full of naked men and boys. I never at any time had any issue with that. We were brought up to believe that the world was full of others that might be different and we were expected to know that and treat them all the same.

Deal with it!
Duane


My experience was similar to yours, Duane.   The school didn't have a pool but the gym locker room was a huge room with benches.  It had a central shower area that must have had space for 20-30 students to shower at the same time.  We walked naked carrying a towel from the bench where we left our clothes, flopped the towel on a low wall around the toweling off area, and went into the showers with all the other men and boys.  No problem.   The big school gym and locker rooms were shared by middle school and high school, ages 12 to 18.  Class schedules were staggered a little so everyone wasn't changing at the same time.

Same at the big municipal swimming pool.  Big locker room with benches.  Open shower area.  Lots of naked men and boys.  No problem. 

The YMCA pool was naked swimming, no suits.  The YMCA gym was naked exercise.  That was in the 1950s. 

I remember my mother expressing concern that the girls locker rooms at school did not have privacy for girls.  Since I was quite used to all the boys and men sharing a locker room naked I didn't understand why girls would be any different.  She gave me some malarkey about girls being more modest and needing more privacy.  That was probably about the time that parents in general were starting to object to nudity.  A first step was objecting to girls being immodest.

I have since learned then girls are no more modest than boys unless parents teach them to be modest.  Fear of bodies is a phobia passed from parent to children.  We were taught to be very afraid of being seen by girls, but not boys or men. 

The sick cow who wrote this article needs to get a life. 
Bob

   
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Bob Knows

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Re: How times have changed
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2017, 02:18:02 PM »
I think about the abuse, the fear, the little hell hole that locker rooms used to be. The slow developers feared ridicule, or talk would get out that they were less than manly. There was a push to be manly. The locker rooms and group showers were not well supervised, so rat tails, bullying, etc. made people want to just get out of it fast. In P.E. we were taught to be competitive, manly, man-up, don't be a sissy, or girlish. It didn't do much for our attitudes toward women and it was to destroy any feminine aspects to our personalities. We were placed into a survive the ordeal mode, or be abused, or to be with the bullys.

I went to two different schools in two different cities, and my experience was opposite of what you describe.  The school locker rooms had been built about 1920 and were not a product of President Kennedy's fitness program.  The atmosphere in PE classes was about camaraderie and friends going to play sports together.   I saw no ridicule or bullying at either school.  I saw no locker room fights.  I experienced a class of boys trying to get washed and dressed as fast as possible to get to the next class. 

I don't know where that experience of bullying and ridicule comes from.  Certainly not in my part of the country.  At least I never saw it.
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nudewalker

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Re: How times have changed
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2017, 04:30:07 PM »
I have to agree with Duane and Bob with this one. There was no bullying in our schools either. Maybe it was due to time constraints as punishment for being late for class was or could be harsh. Or maybe it was the discipline we had at Catholic school.

Our locker rooms were built in the late 1950's but being a small school during football season we would use the girls/visitors locker room. The guys used to make fun at the individual stalls instead of the big room with multiple shower heads.

My opinion is that the parents have messed the whole nudity thing up. Sometime I feel it's due to the fact they didn't fit in with all us "free love" hippies! Now they're exacting their revenge, until they wake up one day and come to realize what they missed!
"Always do what you are afraid to do"-Emerson

jbeegoode

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Re: How times have changed
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2017, 03:35:17 AM »
Jbee, did you try to cut and paste the link text to your browser?

I must have lived in a Kansas bubble. We had cliques in HS but the majority of kids just didn't get all wound up about picking on others. At least it never happened to me or my friends and I don't recall witnessing any. So I don't have personal history there.

Coaches would come into the shower if there were any noises they didn't recognize as normal. They just walked in and told those involved in the action to cool off or get out. If there was a fight, everyone in the fight got licks. As is. No bickering about who did what. As a result there weren't many fights in the locker room.

I think my PE classes were just fine. Apparently things have gone south.

Duane
It works today.
She had a different experience. Apparently, so did I. These people that she mentioned surely need to let go of crap that happened in high school. They must have been whiny back then and still are whiny.

The administration put sophomores in with the freshmen. The picking on usually came from them down to the younger kids. There was no supervision in the locker-room. It got so bad that one day I had to pull a knife on a kid to put an end to his threat to cut my hair. This time the sophomores stepped in and put him down. A second later and I would have been in deep sh..t! I got respect after that and protection. Often, you had to fight in order to not be picked on by the bullies. A kid nicknamed "Flower" had to engage in several fights to get left alone.

One day the coach (swimming/wrestling team) got publicly challenged by one of the bully kids. He took him on, nearly getting beaten at one point, but finally subdued the kid. It was what we were taught. The administartion never knew about it, with a kind of code that left snitches at the bottom of the social pecking order. When Vietnam and the peace movement began to permeate and peace got cool, all of these people, but the coach, toned down, but we were all out of those grades by then.

I fought my way through a bully in Paris at the American Highschool in 8th grade. That wasn't the only problem in the school in Michigan. Things were different in school here in Arizona, but I took no P.E. Bullies are everywhere and also they are not?

I will say that on skinny-dip days that the bully thin wasn't an issue...to my memory...go figure.
Jbee
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eyesup

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Re: How times have changed
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2017, 08:18:03 PM »
Quote from: Jbee
That wasn't the only problem in the school in Michigan. Things were different in school here in Arizona, but I took no P.E. Bullies are everywhere and also they are not?
Yes, they are. But not every incident where the social order or pecking order is sorting itself out qualifies as bullying. Some say bullies are acting out of fear. Maybe that is true. Some people just don't like not being in control or not being perceived to be in control. Sometimes people are just jerks.

Disagreeing with someone of a different race is not racism. People can argue and disagree without it being some kind of abuse. Probably the reason I had so few issues like this is that there wasn't anything that I wanted or needed from people like that. The only group I was involved with in HS was my own circle of friends. I think this is the case for most of us when we went through school.

I had fun while I was in HS but it had nothing to do with HS. The good times I had were because of the friends I had, not any particular group.

Duane

jbeegoode

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Re: How times have changed
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2017, 10:29:52 PM »
I reflect back to the movie, "Lord of the Flies."
Jbee
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eyesup

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Re: How times have changed
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2017, 01:48:48 AM »
That's an extreme example, but yeah.
Power moves to fill the vacuum. If the wrong person holds the power? It is a good example of the old saying about absolute power.

Duane