Should you notify the police?

[nuduke]

And when you've doffed your top what remains?  An inadequate little triangle of fabric, front and back, pointing like an arrow to the sexual organs.  Such hypocrisy that a bikini revealing nearly all is better somehow than very slightly less cloth i.e. total nudity.  Has evolution allowed this prurient rubbish to pollute our minds?  Why?


John

[jbeegoode]

Bare-chested IS gender neutral! I switched to Topfree and top freedom years ago, BUT this bare-chested is what I would call myself. To call another by the same is an equality. Bare-chested body freedom for all!!
Jbee

[Greenbare Woods]

Toplessness implies that a woman’s normal state of being is with a covered chest, and that if that covering is missing, something is lacking, or less.

Also, topless is almost exclusively reserved for females — sunbathers, go-go dancers, etc.

Her position is that if you choose to use the term topless you have already surrendered part of your position.
Makes sense!
Duane

Exactly.  That's the same way it works with "nude" and "nudist."  If you use the term, you have already surrendered to the position that clothes are the normal.  A "nudist" organization already tells us that they believe clothes are normal.  Language is very, very important. 

We are normal.  We are natural.  We are human.   

But I am not "nudist" and I reject the whole acceptance of being abnormal or deviant.

Bob

[jbeegoode]

Just a thought: We are natural... a slight contraction is naturist. Naturalist was already taken. I wonder if somewhere along the line early on, this is how the label naturist was taken by people like us.

But:
Since I feel that nude and being nude and living nude as nudist is a natural act, I a not offended by it, but I see your point Bob. It can be used as a flag, since there is all manner of sub-cultures that need acceptance. Getting behind a freak flag isn't necessarily a bad thing when there is a war on me. "Textiles" is a scurrilous term for those whose habits are a norm for them. But, that is war.

When not at war and in a more civil thoughtful situation, or to make a point, now, I like to capture these freaks in nature into a grouping described as "clothing obsessed." To me that says it all, clearly, a matter of fact and thought provoking. It doesn't connote majority, it merely states the obvious. Clothing is an extreme unnatural obsession. It also doesn't box me in, if I get cold or enjoy some costuming.

It occurred to me, because one argument against nudity, is why would somebody go to such lengths to be naked, like go to a resort, to hike, etc. The implication being that there is an obsession with nudity. When I have to ask if it is okay to go swimming freely at a pool, there is a widespread obsession with covering. Normal behavior would be to just strip off and be accepted, no big deal socially. To expect privacy when changing, or undressing is obsession, instead of no big deal. Going about nude on a nice day, or a hot day, no big deal.

Although "clothing obsessed" is handy, it doesn't state how much that I am nude clearly. It just describes others. It can be taken by the clothing obsessed to mean , just lighten up a bit. "Nudist" defines me more as I actually am, that is I prefer nude and clothing is a rarity. I suppose that from time to time "nudist" would make my point more clear.
Jbee

[jbeegoode]

This message body is left naked.

[JOhnGw]

Although "clothing obsessed" is probably the better term, given the portions of the body which it is compulsory to cover according to such people, perhaps "sex obsessed" might be a more acculate, if misleading, term.

[Greenbare Woods]

The social concept of "Other" is invoked when "nudist" or "nude" is used to describe someone who doesn't conform to social control requiring body covers.

    verb: other; 3rd person present: others; gerund or present participle: othering;
            past tense: othered; past participle: othered

            1. view or treat (a person or group of people) as intrinsically different from
                 and alien to oneself.


Human psychology often wants to be the "other" to be some kind of special, to be noticed, to identify oneself.   Human psychology also criticizes and rejects those who are "other."  Wars and genocide have been waged against those who are "other."   It separates "us" from "them" and we shun or kill "them."

When we self identify as "nudists" we are claiming that we are "other" and separated from the sheep who have adopted the (Stockholm Syndrome) need to identify themselves as needing to be covered all the time.  It makes us feel special but it makes us into "Others." 

Nudism badly needs to declare ourselves as the NORMAL human behavior and work to identify clothing compulsives as "others" who are not normal.   

The nudist resort industry depends on being "other" and unacceptable in normal human lives.  They exist because we have to go hide to get away from being clothed.  What we need to do instead is to push human bodies as the normal human condition and to push recognition of all the problems and costs of clothing as the abnormal deviancy. 

The Internet has given us a huge new tool to spread our message.   We are HUMANS without shame and cover.  We are the normal.  They are the "others."

Bob

[John P]

Those are fine thoughts, Bob, but we need to stay realistic about this. The naturist message appeals most to middle-aged men, and even then, not many of us. And of us believers, hardly any have managed to convince our own wives! Tomorrow, the world?

We should certainly spread the good word, but I've got a feeling that the ones who listen will mostly be guys like ourselves.

[jbeegoode]

I love the way that you put that Bob.

That is a great point John P., particularly the wives crack, or was that wise crack? I have been a naturist among may naked people since I was a teenager. It is wide spread, more than middle age guys. We are all naturist, we just don't all know it yet.

BUT, There needs to be action taken toward change. It must start someplace. Strategy must be had, and positions established. This position that Bob advocates is healthy, practical, and clear. We need to attack clothing as much as we defend nudity.
Green is a big deal. Clothing isn't green. Consumerism is obsessive and everybody knows of the destructive financial consequences. The landfill problem and waste problem needs to be told. The unhealthiness of the obsession needs to be put out there, because health is a major motivator. People, majorities of people, get behind these things and it is possible to give a negative spin onto clothing.

Parents hate spending so much money on clothing for kids. Parents like practical, but their solution is uniforms and conformity, which won't work. Kids reject that. What would be more cool and alienate parents more than not wearing clothes?

We have seen fashion industry having to adapt to these influences. Being flashy and expensive gave way to a reaction and rejection and they now sell clothing with holes pre-drilled. Yearly fashion has accelerated into bi-weekly fashion, which has opened doors to wear what you want and makes it difficult, a pain really, to keep up. This is sort of thing is nothing new. In my 60's generation, fashion and conformity were rejected, bras were burned, and natural was made into gold. It was also a time when social nudity became much more accepted.

Any of these have the potential to question the clothing authority. On the beach those silly tiny costumes, and the big baggie weigh you down with drag shorts. We are not far from more anti-clothing social and cultural shifting. This message would be received by everyone. The society and its culture ARE clothing obsessed. The young only need to see that.

In adolescence, kids begin to differentiate and find their own identities. Junior high kids at first experiment by dressing the part, but with little substance. They are totally wrapped into persona for a period and influenced by conformity of peers.

This stuff moves into high school, but there is also a rejection over time, when they start to grow out of the clothing thing and question and rebel. Sprinkle in a dash of rock ad roll, or hip hop and they are on board in mass.

It isn't far to "it is natural to not wear clothes." It is green, healthy, and fun.

It is weird to have to wear clothing all of the time. No clothing, no problem. Clothing, so many silly reasons. Clothing, it ain't real. What's the point? Why is a body wrong? Naked feels good, clothing is confining. Your parents want you to wear clothes.....

Taking other and turning it a popular spin is a ripe potential.
Jbee

[jbeegoode]

Hmm, so, how do we get the anti clothing message out there? We don't need so much nudity sites, we need anti- clothing sites? How to start the conversation? Start a 12 step program for clothing obsession? Hmm. maybe there is somethin to that. I need part time therapist employment!

Gathering articles, journals, magazine articles and news about clothing obsession and make a movie to enter in Robert Redford's Film Festival, or for Netflixs?

Sometimes people motivate better when they feel threatened, or angry or bond with "other" concepts. How do we demonize clothing? Hundreds of billions of dollars of waste, environmental destruction, and suffering workers. Who wants to identify with that? Boycott clothing, buy recycled....
Jbee

[eyesup]

I know it will come as a shock, but I have to state up front that, I am not a psychologist, thank goodness, so I am not an expert of the mind. The following observations are my own from many years of people watching.

Although "clothing obsessed" is probably the better term, given the portions of the body which it is compulsory to cover according to such people, perhaps "sex obsessed" might be a more acculate, if misleading, term.

While difficult to find, there are those that prefer to wear clothes yet do not take issue with naked people. They are not obsessed. Personal preferences abound in many flavors. When the compulsion to enforce compliance rears it’s head, then there is conflict.

While I trend towards a nude state whenever possible, I recognize the benefit of clothing on occasion. Speaking in absolutes will get you in a jam eventually, or a pickle, I don’t maintain an absolute rejection of clothes. I am not at war with clothed people because sometimes I am clothed. I can’t be at war with myself. I acknowledge there are differing ideas and opinions and as long as the state remains at peace, some will be clothed some not.

I think JOhn has touched on something there. It’s an idea that might need some batting back and forth a bit.

Clothes are, to be specific, a tool. They serve a purpose when used as a tool. When they are transformed into an attribute of the person, they change into something else. They become a type of statement by that person about themselves. Of course there is no guarantee that the statement they make is the one that is heard or observed. Once you’ve linked clothes, or any other item, to your personality or identity any confrontation about the clothes or item is an attack on the person. My wife would heartily agree that my clothing choices most certainly reflect my personality. Since I do not believe in the importance of clothes, my choices reflect that.

Our culture is obsessed with sex, among others things. Obsession changes behavior. I am, along with most everyone, an observer of interaction with others. So when the cultural focus on sex, sexuality and sexy appearances becomes central to someone, if you challenge that, you are challenging their view of themselves.

When I hear that being naked is perverted or deviant I wonder if those objections are rooted in a view that is sexual in nature. I guess it’s normal. A hyper sexual culture tends to see everything through that lens.

Of course, the boogie-man in all this is the deviant out there. But they are always there. Ranging about, back and forth looking for an opportunity. You cannot know them until they make a move. It’s a risk, clothed or not, young or old, rich or poor when you step outside. These days you don’t even have to step outside. The wolf can come into your life on the internet.

So to comment on JOhnGw’s comment, “If someone objects to nudity for sexual reasons, they might well be obsessed to some degree with that.”

Your views may differ.

Duane

[eyesup]

We should certainly spread the good word, but I've got a feeling that the ones who listen will mostly be guys like ourselves

So we have to choose between being a voice in the wilderness or to sing to the choir?

Duane

[jbeegoode]

We should certainly spread the good word, but I've got a feeling that the ones who listen will mostly be guys like ourselves

So we have to choose between being a voice in the wilderness or to sing to the choir?

Duane

Nothing changed until there were enough uppity women. We need more uppity. AND as I went on about and showed exampesjust above here, there is a soft underbelly to this clothing obsession.
Jbee

[Safebare]

I choose the clothes that I wear.  Sometimes that is a suit and tie (very rare), other times it is simply the skin I was born with, and then there is everything in between.  I believe we are heading in a good direction with the popularity of nude events like the WNBR, demonstrating non-sexual nudity to the general public.  But people still see nudity as a sexual reference.  The advertisers reinforce that idea, so they can sell more clothes and new clothes.  That is an insurmountable problem.  But, maybe the goal isn't to change the minds of the masses.  We only need to make a big enough shift to achieve tolerance.  I believe that will only achieve that objective if we focus on that goal.

[Greenbare Woods]

We should certainly spread the good word, but I've got a feeling that the ones who listen will mostly be guys like ourselves

So we have to choose between being a voice in the wilderness or to sing to the choir?

Duane

The Internet now offers us public forums such as Twitter and Facebook where we can each speak to hundreds or thousands of non-nudist people.   We have to be positive in our message.  We have to watch our language.  We have to stop saying "sexual" in every sentence that says "nudity."  We have to stop self identifying "nudist" as some nutcase.  We have to start talking about clothes free lives, bare body choices, and clothing as an uncomfortable and expensive option in clement weather.   We advocates need to spread the word with other nudists. 

I have noticed that INF is moving in this direction too.  We are not alone.

Bob