Ancient Sparta

[jbeegoode]

I picked up a scholarly book about Sparta today. I read the chapter about women. It told how women had the right to own property and they had pretty much took over and ran the place. Still, they were raised with certain beliefs. Like if a son or husband didn’t come back from war, you party like crazy and show no grief. The greater city state was better and more important than your sadness.

While boys went to dormitories at age seven and girls stayed closer to home, they both had training and education. That’s gymnos education mental and physical. It was most important that reproduced, healthy, preferably males. The smarter, healthier and greater prowess that the mother had, the baby would as well. Therefore women were given education likewise, and that meant gymnos. They walked through the public domain nude and athletic and proudly, like men. There were different opinions as to how often and the context, but just as the men did. We don't know the daily norm, but nudity as a fashion was okay and certainly done as no big deal, a norm. Apparently, the rest of Greece would rather women get out of the house as little as possible and the attitude was that they were lesser beings than men.

During the wedding ceremony the bride was prepped by having her head shaved. She would keep a short crop as a badge of a married woman.

A gymnos festival was one of the bigger deals of the year. Wars were delayed for it.

Now, I don’t have the book here and the author. I can get the bibliography tomorrow.
Gymnopaedia Festival:
http://histclo.com/chron/ancient/gre/city/spar/spar-gf.html
Jbee

[nuduke]

Interesting stuff, Jbee
In school we learned about the greeks and various rivalries between Athens and Sparta.  Learned a lot about Athens (Forum, philosophers, birth of democracy, naked olympics etc) but nothing really about Sparta except that they led a severe and simple life hence ...spartan!
This puts a bit of dimension on it.  BTW beware: the page link is corrupt - there is a trojan on it that tries to steal your credentials
(Haha!  Trojans too!)
John

[JOhnGw]

<snip>
BTW beware: the page link is corrupt - there is a trojan on it that tries to steal your credentials
(Haha!  Trojans too!)
John

Laughs himself hoarse.

[eyesup]

The Spartans, known for their military skills and culture infused with that military outlook, may not survive the assault of Mel Brooks on their name. A general (Marcus Vindictus, aka Shecky Greene) of the Roman army in his "History of the World, Part I", just got back to Rome after his victory over the "the cretins at Sparta". Corrected by the court herald to "The Spartans at Crete".

You have to pay attention when watching a Brooks movie. They fly right past you if you don't.

Duane

[BlueTrain]

I hope this doesn't count as hair-splitting but although what has been said about Sparta (and Mel Brooks) is true, supposedly the majority of the population were essentially serfs or enslaved people who had no rights as citizens. The entire life of free Spartans was organized around keeping the Helots "in their place." But otherwise, I don't know how their life might have differed.

[jbeegoode]

The Spartans did it naked...me thinks....

Yea, the book went on about uprisings and revolutions, of those "Helots." They were too easy on them, just collecting like half of their production, not stopping in enough to keep them properly in their place. The Polempenisian (sic) War weakened the Spartan's numbers. 
Jbee

[BlueTrain]

I don't know how the attitudes toward nudity, public or otherwise varied between the cities, but it was nothing like it was almost anywhere else. One exception was Egypt, where nudity and near nudity was apparently the rule, presumably because of the heat, if wall paintings--and The National Geographic--are anything to go by.

[jbeegoode]

Sparta gave women liberty and equality to go about nude in public. The other Greek city states didn't do that for women. Public nudity was fine for men, they were into fitness, gymnos exercise and went about fully unclothed, as they cared to do.

Egypt is interesting, I'll check the internet for that. I don't have a handy scholarly book for that.
Jbee

[eyesup]

There is much anecdotal information and urbane legends floating around on the internet posing as history. I have learned to seek multiple sources and also to look for exact phrasing on each, indicating a 'cut and paste' episode.

There are no easy answers M'lud! 

Duane

[BlueTrain]

Some of the more interesting discussions center around past nudity at high school swimming pools and the YMCA, not to mention actually taking a shower at school. Even girls did that--I'm told; never saw it with my own eyes, so it may not be true.

But to this day, I can't imagine a high school having a swimming pool!

[jbeegoode]

There is much anecdotal information and urbane legends floating around on the internet posing as history. I have learned to seek multiple sources and also to look for exact phrasing on each, indicating a 'cut and paste' episode.

There are no easy answers M'lud! 

Duane

History books too are often bent, unless the topic is more benign. This book shows that the author is doing his best to recognize that and be objective. I looked at one internet source and it reflected his views as fact. He candidly admitted speculation when it was speculation, scholarly. 

Looking up Egyptian customs on the internet may be flakey, but it isn't so important enough today to dig into a library unless something truly fun comes out.

Have you ever read Mussolini biographies? I went through a half dozen, with different bents, but they all reported the same melding of the state and and corporate rule as definitive of fascism. It is truly a reflection of what is going on today in politics. That's worth digging around in. A culture that hasn't been reported about that equates the sexes, including nudity sensibilities, and that is important to me and a few here, so I dig, if not for fun. How did it come about, what is the context? Women were equal and often "more equal" but what a bunch of hardline social customs that they had to swallow along with the guys!
Jbee

[BlueTrain]

There is usually more equality than anyone cares to admit. But there is also more inequality than anyone cares to admit, too. Those comments apply to just about everything.

[eyesup]

Yes,
The bad thing about the internet is you can find almost anything there you want.
The good thing about the internet is you can find almost anything there you want.
 
Duane

[BlueTrain]

Almost, not quite. Not everything is on the internet yet, for better or worse.

[eyesup]

Thank God for that!  

Duane