Nude in Public

[jbeegoode]

We are generally out in the hills, somewhere remote, around our homes, being stealth, minding our own business. We often stretch the conventional boundaries about being seen. It is rare to read here about being actually nude in public, like a city center, businesses, more urban and suburban, when there are other people around.

It is generally illegal, of course, but it has happened among us free ranging naturists. One of us might find a way to buy bread in the morning walking through town, before most people are awake. Perhaps someone has experienced the nude cites of Spain or France.

It is again, conventionally thought of as titillating, exciting, bold, reckless and some see it as foolhardy. But, would it, or did it, feel weird?

What are your experiences, thoughts, feelings about this. There are times and places that allow this level of freedom. Would you want to? How would you imagine how it might feel, or how did it feel. How did you manage the experiment? Was it risky?

It would be a goal of a free range naturist to live in a world where, bare bodies were though of as just nude bodies. If you woke up one day in that world, how do you think that you would react?

Jbee

[Greenbare Woods]

I often go naked in places where I'm unlikely to be attacked or confronted.   I have enjoyed going naked all day, and in stores and cafes in places where that is accepted.  Even here where nudity is arguably not illegal but not generally seen I make it a point to be seen naked frequently.  I don't feel comfortable going into Walmart naked, but I do often drive naked and put on some shopping outfit in their parking lot under their surveillance cameras.  Then I remove my shopping outfit in the parking lot before getting back into my car and leaving.

I really believe that only a very few people object to seeing a naked person.  Most people I have met don't care. 

Requiring clothing in the UK, US, and other countries by force of law and punishment is not fundamentally different than the clothing requirements in Iran where clothing "moral" police have murdered hundreds of women over the past couple of months for violating their clothing requirements.  Clothing requirements and moral police are evil totalitarian government.

[jbeegoode]

Yea, those "moral police" are out there, and Iran and Steve Gough's incarceration shows us just how out there it can go.
 
One day, 20 years ago, my then girlfriend decided to wear just a shirt and a G-string swim bottom in public. We stopped in a grocery, a pharmacy and a fast food on our way out to Redington Pass. The cut and length suggested that there was nothing under the shirt, her butt cheeks showing in some degree constantly. I watched others reactions with great curiosity. There were the passive, "I don't care." There were mostly, apparently "none of my business" types. Some people just didn't seem to notice. There were a few guys who stared and checked out the bare skin trapped in some lust and curiosity.

One middle aged lady, looked ready for outrage, but couldn't figure out just what was going on as my girlfriend sat with her veggie burger across the room from her. She looked like, "No pants, or what?" I got the feeling that she might come over and say something, if she could just believe her eyes and the idea of the audacity of this other person. She didn't make the effort to confront. These people might support moral police.

Then, there was the lady who saw a very bare buttocks as girlfriend stretched to wash the widows of the car when we got gas and her shirt rode up. She drove by in the parking lot, window down and yelled, "Better cover"em up. That was the morals police. Without thinking about it, she had a sense of norm and felt a need to enforce her idea of social norm. It's like people with kids that fear nudity.

When you make them official, it reinforces their righteousness. They can go so far as to kill to be moral, when you give them legitimacy? I think that it's often a personality that has had an authoritarian upbringing under fear. Abuse breeds abuse, etc.

Jbee

[Fellsnude]

Iran's just another gangster state using whatever means it can to maintain control over its populace, and it's no coincidence it's in cahoots with Putin. It also lied its way through the initial Covid-19 outbreak and consequently killed many thousands of its people. The religion may have started out as a noble idea (or not) but now it's incidental to the dictatorship and its desire to stay in power at all costs.

Steve Gough brought his troubles on himself by his refusal to compromise even a little, even insisting in Scotland on stripping off as soon as he got out of jail. He did the cause of FRN no good with that attitude. Much of the time, out in the countryside, his nudity caused little if any trouble. That was also all before the current College of Policing guidelines came in, but I don't think they would have saved him when he insisted on appearing naked in court, if I remember correctly.

The most objectionable thing about the morality police of Iran and elsewhere (and the usual religious bans on exposed flesh) is that they are far harder on women than on men. Even in Britain we see couples out and about, the woman swathed from head-to-toe, the man in tee-shirt and shorts. If the men want their wives and daughters covered up, they should be equally covered. OK, some of the women genuinely choose to cover up, so it's hard to tell what proportion are itching to uncover even a little, but the protests in Iran suggest they are not a negligible minority. At least the Mormons (I think) cover up regardless of gender.

WE (including many naturist Christians) know that scriptural instructions to "dress modestly" can be interpreted as not dressing in finery and bling, rather than bans on exposed skin. The modern usage of the term "modest" may well be a long way from its meaning when the scriptures of any major religion were written.

[jbeegoode]

Yea, I went to court for jury duty in shorts and got Kicked out by the judge, until I drove home and changed. Naked is disrespect for decorum, a sign of not stuffy and serious enough about proceedings. Nude must have truly freaked them out.

These Muslim edicts change with the culture around them that are in local dominance. I've read their logic on the topic. It is to keep men from lusting. It is also a patriarchal control device and jealous "human as property" attitude, like having women walk a few steps behind the men. I don't think that is religion, that is culture, old old social BS that has become a part of a religion. I have no respect for their behavior, only disgust.

We stay away from religious and political discussion here, but, I feel assured that there are no Muslims here to offend and no hope of converting them into free range naturists.
Jbee

 

[jbeegoode]

So, on to the intent of the thread.

My experience down in Zipolite was as close to freely nude in public as I have had. I wondered how I might react to it before arrival. Would I feel more naked, inhibited, nervous, titillated, out of place, etc.

The place is a mile of free beach, with restaurants and small hotels to literally grass shacks. One can walk into most and order a drink or food while nude. There are textiles, probably more that nudes. On the other side of the businesses on the beach is the main road and no nudity allowed. We did get permission to eat with our clothing off at a pizza place in town.
 
The initial walk around the hotel felt a bit out of place, for a few minutes. The beach, like a sandy boardwalk felt not like being undressed, but went so far as to feel very much normal, a simple choice, just as it should be. It didn't feel unusual to be naked at all. My comfort level could have been like in in my own backyard. Naked was better of course.

I would have been nude on the streets, too, if legal. Instead, I was accepted in just a light kilt everywhere.

It was free range out on the beach, not a restrictive feel. Before long we felt entitled. When a restaurant told us that we wouldn't be served on the beach, we left expressing offense.

There are big facilities, but most everyone is nude like Cap D'age. It is on my bucket list to experience more of these places where nude in public is okay, normal. Spain has a naturist zoned town and nude and clothing mix together. I crave that freedom, but would it again feel normal and not a grand sense of liberation?

I ask myself, if I woke up in a world without anti-nude law, would I just stay nude, when I left home to shop, or be entertained. I don't know. But I should like to know the answer. Out in a place where nudity isn't expected and people are out there who would expect clothing is different than where it is expected, like near a beach may be different.
Jbee

[JohnV]

One summers day when the air was already warm at 6.30 in the morning, I headed out for my daily run in the fields behind our house. It’s criss crossed with footpaths and there are normally dog walkers about, so not ideal for nudity. But this Sunday morning, it was quiet and with the land flat I could see a good distance. Off came my shirt and I revelled know the warm breeze hitting me. At an avenue of trees that gave some privacy, I decided to take the plunge, removed my shorts and ran naked. It felt fantastic! At the end of the avenue, and revelling in the freedom, I looked across the fields and could t see anyone. So I continued the run naked and without the shelter of the trees, it felt truly intoxicating. A nearby field had corn almost ready for harvest so quite tall. It was only at the last minute did I see an elderly couple on their bicycles. With nowhere to head, I made a frantic effort to get my shorts back on but with running shoes in the way, I failed miserably. The only way was to brazen it out and I jogged by clutching my clothes with a cheery ‘good morning’. They were very British and simply cycled by without saying a word!

[Fellsnude]

JohnV - my free-range walks have been much easier since I got a Kiniki wrap (see their website - the wraps are usually listed in the women's beach-wear section). If you have a close encounter you no longer need to try to get shorts on. (I know, legally you don't need to anyway, but it's sometimes a question of good manners.)

Jbee - We've booked 2 weeks in Charco del Palo, Lanzarote, next March. Charco was set up as a naturist village some 45 years ago, by a German of course, and it is said you can be naked everywhere and at all times except in the shop and the three eating places. I was a bit surprised how keen Mrs F was to agree to stay there. We won't be nude all the time because (a) we'll be very pale to start with after the English winter and (b) we want to explore the island, but there seem to be plenty of other places to get naked too. Looking forward to being able to leave the apartment with no safety net!

[nuduke]

I really believe that only a very few people object to seeing a naked person.  Most people I have met don't care. 

I would agree with you, there, Bob.  I genuinely think a majority of people are not bothered by naked people going about their business in a non agressive and non sexual way.  However, what we are all afraid of (except you! ) is the substantial minority.  It's the one person that makes a fuss or secretly reports you that we feel the need to insure ourselves against by not allowing ourselves to be naked in any situation where this possibility might occur.  Jbee has quoted many times the evidence that exposure of nakedness to young children does not traumatise them or have negative effects but it is their parents who believe the sky will fall if they experience nudity from others and so resist any possibility they may encounter it.
I also believe that the majority of people that are not bothered by nudity also carry all the societal baggage about the evils of nudity and therefore will react to nudity with the Pavlovian responses that they have been taught so well that it has passed into instinct.  So their reaction to nudity is not out and out hostility but the far more difficult to address reactions of giggling prurience, detachment from the issue, sham amazement and light ridicule through humour and embarrassment, even though underneath all that reflex reaction they don't really have any objection to nudity.  They will express rubbish like, "Oooh it's alright for some", " It's not for me, thank you", "Dear me, aren't you cold?" etc etc.  I think this kind of spineless weakness and inability to see over the crock of shite that they have inherited over their lifetime that is incredibly harmful to the progress of the emancipation and normalisation of naturism in society. 


So many other groups have succeeded in emancipating themselves even in our lifetimes - the gay community, the disabled, autistic people, trans gender etc etc such that society does not shy away and shun them like it used to.  Why has this not happened for the arguably much simpler matter of embracing naturism?  Because there aren't enough of us and there's no-one prepared or with the resource to create society wide campaigns like the other groups I mention have done.  So we continue to hide in our naturist camps and holiday compounds and seek the solitary route when out naked.  Even you, Bob, one of the most lifestyle-embracing, courageous and outspoken naturists that I have encountered, still can't take on society when shopping at Walmart or pumping gas.  You do the right thing for your safety and security, of course, Bob, but where is the barmy army of nudist protesters, willing to take on the job of moving society's mindset, internationally, who can help you to a place where it is normal to be one and to encounter nudists everywhere and for that proclivity to be accepted by all, whatever their views on it?  A transvestite or a homosexual in society, or a sufferer from cerebral palsy that used to be hidden away in institutions is nowadays considered normal in normal society and as the priveledge of being able to participate in normal life where only a few decades ago that wasn't at all the case.  Where have naturists gone wrong that they haven't been able to find their voice and campaign for their emancipation (yet!)?
John

[Greenbare Woods]

So many other groups have succeeded in emancipating themselves even in our lifetimes - the gay community, the disabled, autistic people, trans gender etc etc such that society does not shy away and shun them like it used to.  Why has this not happened for the arguably much simpler matter of embracing naturism?  Because there aren't enough of us
John

You are right, John, that lots of other groups have demanded and gotten acceptance.  But I disagree that there aren't enough of us. Surveys show that there are many people who go naked sometimes when they can "get away" with it.   Our major problem is that too many of us, and our organizations, believe that even being seen is harmful to other people.  That belief has been promoted by "nudist" organizations for more than a century.to market their pay-for-play nude farms. 

The first thing nudists need to do is to believe that nude is acceptable in public.  Too many nudists don't believe that. 

[nuduke]

The first thing nudists need to do is to believe that nude is acceptable in public.  Too many nudists don't believe that.

I hate to fall in to preaching to the converted mode, but I wholeheartedly agree with that, Bob.  As you indicate this cautious and risk averse mindset runs through the naturist organisations, perhaps for the reasons you opine.  It takes a strong campaigning body with the beliefs you identify i.e. that nudity is acceptable wherever you find it (particularly in those places where you don't find it today e.g. Walmart and on the average street) and that then mounts a campaign for the personal freedom to dress or not as you like, to which the millions of naturists can get behind and support and adopt, just like Gay Pride, Gay Lib in the old days and Stonewall.  They were pressure groups - active, political and loud of voice.  So yes, we ourselves as naturists, sadly, have a lot of mental baggage to clamber out of before proper political pressure for emancipation can arise. 
John

[Greenbare Woods]

Yes John.  Sadly we are opposed by the pay-for-play "nudist" organizations, and many "nudists" who fear their own freedom. 

[jbeegoode]

"The first thing nudists need to do is to believe that nude is acceptable in public."

Yup, right there in ANRR's mission statement, "Appropriate places." They are asking society and law to accept a bit of something when we all deserve, have a right to, the entire pie!

Gays had to hide and frequent their clubs and closets. How did they get so far? Maybe one difference is that thaey are doing their own thing. Fashion has been a herd mentality. People might feel the pressure to join the herd of nudity as fashion and then  resist. Most fashion comes from an avante guarde that is radical, and there is opposition, but as it melds into society, fashion blends, like color on men, or long hair in the sixties ended crewcuts and even forced the most adamant conservatives to wear sideburns. Gay is still someone else's preference and safe, to each his own, but nudity, is "us." "We all must conform," they think and behave.

How can we get them to just let us be, when everybody is a naturist, they just don't know it yet?
Jbee

[Peter S]

I’m with Nuduke on the response issue, at least in the UK, that people aren’t sure how to react to a naked person. The “giggling prurience” he describes, or polite observation, is, I think, part of that British not-wanting-to-get-involved reaction to what others may get up to. It’s an instinctive reaction, but borne out as sensible if followed logically.

He’s naked - is it legal? If it is I don’t want to look silly by saying anything, but if it isn’t should I report it? I should ring the police. But by the time the police get here he’ll be long gone so that won’t be any good. Perhaps if I smile politely he’ll go away and I won’t have to do anything. Oh good, he’s gone. Bother, should have snapped him with my phone to show Aunty Flo, she’d have had a good laugh at it.

[Davie]

Its an interesting question of how people react. Naturist walking groups here in the UK seem to have adopted the freedoms allowed by the College of Policing rules in a sensible way. The rules broadly speaking set out that simple nudity is lawful and does not require a Police response unless it seems an offence is being committed or there is a suspicion that the naked person has mental health issues. It also states there naturism is not restricted to set areas, in effect saying nudity is lawful on all beaches and everywhere else.

The groups tend to avoid busy areas, e.g. towns and will cover up crossing busy road and if there are children about. We recognise that people do have sensibilities but at the same time no longer automatically cover up when encounters occur. By and large encounters are friendly with some standard responses, e.g. "I'm not brave enough to do that," and " You make me feel overdressed." Occasionally we get a few people turning their backs on us, the worst being in a fairly well visited area near a ford. The group had covered up but still two grandparents turned their grand-daughter to face away. We get humours moments too. A group was walking down a country lane. There was a gap between about 25 and four bringing up the rear. Two young men rushed out from a stables mobiles in hand not being aware of the smaller group behind. A member from the smaller group said we didn't mind them taking pictures. It was wonderful to see their surprise as they ran back into the stables never to be seen again. On another occasion when passing a farm a man was on his phone. It was a joy to hear him explain he was just seeing a load of nudies walking by. He gave us a smile and a wave.

Sometimes we naturists are surprised. Seeing some children in the distance the group covered up on to be told by one of the adults we didn't need to. In fact we stayed covered up. On another occasion one member went forward to speak to a teacher when we came across a group of school children. He covered up and went to say we would hold back until they had passed. The teacher said they were actually going up a side path. Whilst returning to our group the kids saw his bum. Raucous laughter and giggles ensued.

Anecdotally it seems women are actually more accepting of nudity than men, especially when together. A cheery hello from the woman is often accompanied by a scowling face of her partner.

Naturist walking groups are becoming more popular. My local group will attract around 30 on a weekend and about half that number on weekday. We want to normalise naturism without being too provocative. There's been an advert in a local advertising paper and we've had clothed winter walks to allow people to walk with the group before being asked to engage with nudity.

At the start of one solo walk whilst still dressed I came across an elderly couple> The lady asked if I was one of the naturists saying she had no problem with it. He didn't look so convinced! It does show that locals know we are about and are generally accepting.

Davie