Swimming IN school

[Greenbare Woods]

You make a good point, Davie.  The decline in nude swimming and common showers among boys seems to have begun about the same time that gays were making a big push for gay acceptance.   When I was a child swimming at the YMCA we didn't know that gays existed.   I suppose that at least some adults were aware of them but none of us kids had been told.  Boys could swim or shower naked with other boys because we didn't have the girls looking at us from a sexual basis. 

Boys and young men today are taught about gays in school, on TV, and everywhere else they go.  They must believe that gays are everywhere.   It is understandable that straight boys would not want to have the attention of the gay kids.  I think that has a lot to do with the hesitancy of boys and young men to swim or even shower naked in public.

[eyesup]

I have had one or two occasions in my life where I think a guy may have been making a pass at me. Not sure as I don't pay that kind of attention to what men are doing. At the end of the day I am not in the least bit worried about being around gays in any situation. I am comfortable and confident in what and who I am and we taught our kids to be the same way.

If you teach your kids the right response to make no matter the source of the attention there will never be a problem.  There is only a problem if you teach them to fear that sort of attention. This applies to either kind of orientation.

The only danger is when someone persists and doesn't listen when the answer is NO!

Duane

[jbeegoode]

There has always been a separation of the genders in changing rooms, I guess because of the sexual angle. I wonder if hiding away is more common now because of the increase in same sex relationships. Perhaps people will think they are in a sexual or potentially sexual situation by being naked in front of anyone.

Just a thought

Davie 

That's the knee jerk conclusion many have. The sexual associations. Nude is naked is sex. I see it in a magazine and here it is in real life, therefore everybody thinking as I do is doing the same sexual thoughts thing. People introduced to social nudity often have roaming curious eyes that dart around for a little while, or look as if they are having difficulty hiding that. Women get creeped out thinking someone is thinking of them, studying them. But, I don't think that fear of homosexuality would be a major theme among the many, just a few.

We knew about gay back in school and there was no fear. That term wasn't used. There was no respect for it. It was dangerous to be labeled as such. No one had fear, except the gay kids. Maybe some that were homophobe were gay. Uncomfortable was about insecurity and self consciousness generally.

The kids today are much much more aware and accepting of gay and outward gay. Even so, "That's so gay," is a common derogatory term. It is becoming so common that it is becoming dissociated from its original meaning like the term jerk. Some kid sporting a...an erection in the locker room would probably find himself in a very serious faux pas, still.

Bob, there are just as many homosexuals as ever. They are just more open now. It is a spectrum from total homo to total hetero. In between can be bi, from fantasies, to change in one part of life, fascination with just one same sex person, favor toward one sex over the other. Read Kensey's research. It is not cut and dry at 6 in 100. The spectrum goes way beyond that, into very significant numbers of the population and this is nothing new. Just more people feeling safe to try it out, test the waters and/or be flagrant.
Jbee





 

[nudewalker]

 It's funny how as much as I thought my father was behind the times his advise was on target. Although he didn't preach abstinence he did warn against getting a girl pregnant so use protection, also about VD and I would imagine most importantly "No means no." Looking back he had a better attitude toward gays then than many people do now. The last class reunion was an eye opener as a few classmates came out and brought their partners.

The few times I have been approached was on a beach where I had been wearing Speedo type bathing suits. Not really serious advances and once they became aware of my marital status and desire to wear as little as necessary I was left alone. There have also been some PM's on other forums which I either didn't answer if they weren't a regular or answered honestly if they were a regular. Again no problem.

Knee jerk reactions are the worst. Much like jumping to conclusions: "He must be gay dressed like that", "she must want it wearing that", "what a prude" you get the picture. I try not to assume, or judge. Live and let live!

[Nightwalker]

Western Canada here. When I was 15 (1975, when Albertasaurus roamed the earth), showers were mandatory and group -- no individual stalls back then. I recall in the 80's, a co-worker spoke of being forced to take high school swimming lessons nude in Central Canada in the early 1970s. My other co-workers were aghast, but in fact that's how they were taught in Quebec back in the day (decidedly NOT co-ed, though).

I was surprised, in the 1990s, when my teenage son said showers were no longer mandatory. Apparently both the political right and left here have nuked group showers ... the right because (*gasp*) nakedness causes gayness, Communism and cooties, and the left out of respect for kids who might actually be gay. (At least that last one I can understand. Imagine being a straight male teen and being forced to shower with the girls! Never mind, that was a recurring adolescent dream back then...)

Anyway, in this day and age of abuse and caution and extremes, some of this makes sense ... sort of like mandatory seatbelt usage, I suppose. On the other hand, it's sad to see people beginning to shirk from the whole idea of the naked human body, something that should never be thought of as shameful.

[John P]

Allow me to quote myself from the "A simple question" thread:

Your home town must have been different from mine. I can remember with some embarrassment now how we used to make jokes about "homos" and "queers". But it was all in a detached way, as though we were never personally likely to meet any of them. Now kids are much more accepting that there are alternative sexualities out there, and that's a fine thing. But they're also being told to be watchful of sexual predators, that such a person "could be anybody". And back when we had our jokes about gays, there were in fact a fair number of sexual predators, very few of whom were getting caught (of both homo- and hetero- varieties). So there's this idea out there that anyone might make a pass at anyone else now, and kids have to be on their guard. Don't let yourself be seen naked, because you never know who's eyeing you as a potential victim!

And yes, any actual nudity that the kids see nowadays is pretty sure to be sexualized. There was a time when all the porn a kid got to see was a surreptitiously passed copy of Playboy. Now there's an ocean of erotica at every kid's fingertips! When they want a few even more naughty thrills, they make their own porn--sexting, they call it.

It's a sad situation, that is for sure. Innocent nudity, in any form, is pretty much extinct, and people would be suspicious of it if they encountered it, because they're so familiar with the non-innocent kind.

[nudewalker]

Why do I have the feeling that those who make the rules were the ones who felt inferior, bullied or shamed in the years we had open showers and nudity in the pool and locker room? It is just my opinion but thinking about my contemporaries who have gone into education I wonder. Someday I may learn the answer but I doubt if it has to do with gayness, Communism or cooties. Sexual predators maybe but my hunch is a deep rooted fear fostered long ago. To me it is a parenting thing; I was raised with both respect and an open mind. Yes, I knew of gays and predators and was taught how to handle the situation. Too much effort to protect us from ourselves.

[jbeegoode]

 Responding to John P., I think that most everyone is aware of "nudist" or "naturist", even if they do find it sexy. I remember thinking as that as a child, before "these days." There is enough information out there that people know that others are doing this, going to these places, and somehow, it is not so sexual for the participants. The concept and possibility is out there, that there is a non-sexual nude lifestyle, that it is possible that it happens.

I can find myself suspicious, or cautious about someones sexual intentions in a nude context, but then I can find myself going through that in non-nude context, too.

Extinct, I believe is too strong. I'm not dead yet!

This information is important to get out there, and it is being done. That is why that it is important for us to participate in internet discourse wherever possible, so people will see it and know that we exist. If we can do nude demonstrations, talk openly of the opinion of the normalcy of or nude bodies, we should make a point of it.

There is an inherent them and us being presented, as "those nudists." People need to know that others are getting coffee in the morning undressed, not getting dressed after a shower, letting their kids see them in a healthy manner, all happening right next door. The casual nudity that presents as no big deal in a family. This idea of privacy and boundaries is way out of hand and irrational, non-thinking for many at this point. Schools are promoting this from orders of over cautious attorneys, but if sends a sick message to children and their fearful parents.

My recollections of high school gym were not comfortable. There were the slower developing kids cowering to hide their youth. There were towel snappers, the prevalence of "how embarrassing if the girls saw us," the "Porky's" idea of drilling a hole into the girls shower on the other side of the wall. There were lots of dirty jokes, cruel "fag" jokes. It certainly reinforced the anti-gay culture. Being gay was dangerous. Showers were not leisurely, they were quick. Pranks abounded. There were sophomores teasing freshmen, and fights broke out when the coach wasn't looking. It made "Lord of the Flies" make sense.

When I substitute taught gym classes, they were now coed. The boys were much more toned down, less aggressive. No one showered and the stalls were separate chest high cubicles. They just changed and got out of there.

People are curious about bodies and sex. They will associate those two. I think that both need to be seen as healthy, normal and accepted as human.

The sexuality and curiosity lead me to experience a shower with my teenage girlfriend. This lead me to the realization that the body was not just sexy, or nasty. I found that it was wholesome and she was beautiful. The experience was much different than my fantasies and previous feelings. So, I believe that people do catch on to that naturally. I wasn't taught that. I learned the truth, because it is there.

Another example was the Woodstock movie and "Life Magazine" which had a special issue on Woodstock. People, our peers were skinnydipping, it was innocent, they were cool, they expounded what they were discovering. It became a cultural change. Soon, the cool people were doing it. If people see porn, they will see naturism sites. Seeds are planted, good and bad, but if they try it, they will learn the non-sexual aspects.
Jbee

[nuduke]

I have recollections from my all male school, of communal showers and changing rooms yet with the banter about each other being benign and not aggressive.  There was some towel flicking etc but no obvious bullying and in the main we had little time between lessons so the business of getting showered, dried and dressed was what we did in changing rooms!

I do remember though that gayness was often referred to pejoratively in our society - gayness being a form of insult for the ineffective and lackadasical.  Being referred to as a 'girl' was to say you were not manly in some respect but these insults were in good nature and harmless intent in the main.  Whilst we were aware of the fact that homosexuality was 'out there' we were children of the sixties and beginning to be aware that the evils and dangers of homosexuality taught to us by parents and teachers was in fact just another almost normal and probably harmless proclivity in some people and predatory homosexuals of evil intent were not encountered by people I knew as far as I was aware as a sensible and well adjusted teenager (as far as I could judge!). 

Looking back I recall 2 things about changing rooms - one, they made you realise that in certain circumstances nudity was OK and that yes, how inadequate my weedy physsique was by comparison with many fit, broad shouldered teenagers and yet that there were sufficient of my ilk around not to be too bothered by it!  One lifetime regret though was that post pubertal growth did not turn me into an adonis!!  I just grew into a similarly white and flabby adult!!!

I believe looking back that my naturism started at this period although I never quite realised what it was.  After sessions in the gym we would be allowed to go for a quick dip in the school swimming pool and if you didn't have the right kit it was no problem you could dip nude.  I found this sensual and pleasurable although in the circumstances not erotic.  I just liked nude swimming and took many occasions to forget my speedos when it wasn't too obvious, although it once got remarked on. 

Our boyish naive humour about fairies, poofs, homos, queers, shirt lifters, arse bandits etc., was common (the term gay didn't really come into common parlance until later).  It is only remembering in retrospect that I realise there must have been boys who were gay and who had to keep a low profile.  What, I wonder, was the effect of our cruel but inoffensive humour on them?  I for one and I think quite typically, was oblivious to that and in this day that makes me sad that we did not care for and emancipate those people more in our little segment of society.

One odd occurrence was at a school speech day which was annualy held at the town hall in which the magistrate's courts could also be found.  I was in the final year and about 18 years old at the time and with several others at the same stage, we were detailed to be ushers for the stream of parents and relatives that would be attending our annual (incredibly boring!) presentation ceremony.  We were stationed in a corridor with large notice boards with the cases to be heard over the next few days in the courts.  As we waited we read these with sensational relish - the larcenies, the frauds and petty violence, motoring offences and prostitution - all the horribleness and salacious conduct of society was arraigned before us.  Judge of our surprise therefore when one of the more popular teachers in the school was on one of these notices, accused of soliciting men in a public toilet!!!  We were horrified that our well-liked schoolmaster should be subjected to the potential discovery of his alleged misdemeanour by passing parents and other teachers.  Caring little for his accused crime but caring more for him as an individual, we selected the tallest boy whose head just covered the notice if he stood up very straight and he was positioned there before and after the event such that our teachers reputation should not be further besmirched by the prurient opinions of parents and his colleagues.  We never found out if he was convicted or acquitted but since his service at school remained uninterrupted one must assume he was falsely accused (or not proven!).  After this I looked for signs of the evils of homosexuality in him and never detected anything untoward (and I had lessons with him several times a week and did extra curricular activity (the good sort!!) that he organised.  I think that event helped my development as a tolerant and open minded individual and I remember being proud that our actions to shelter his reputation arose in us out of respect and liking of the individual and care to protect that rather than giving way to our baser boyish, voyeuristic, sensationalist deprecation of his alleged crime, instincts which would have shown a lack of human kindness.  We were not particularly bothered what he did in his personal life anyway!  That latter feeling was indeed an indicator of how society was beginning to progress positively in the late 1960's towards emancipation of something that hitherto would have automatically condemned him.

It's a shame that naturism was not to benefit from such societal progress in the same era.

John 

[jbeegoode]

One boy came out in my high school. Not a very popular fellow in the first place, he was ostracized and ridiculed, name called in the hallways. What he had done was a dangerous thing to do and talk had gotten around. He followed a bully into the toilet one day and was beaten and head stuffed into it. The bully got little reprimand. The boy was very stupid, very brave, or very  ill-conceived in his actions. I don't know which. It was all very cruel.

It was safe to hang out around gay bars to "roll queers" because the police wouldn't intervene in the early seventies in Tucson.

 Gay had a long way to go in the late sixties, but the skinnydipping at Woodstock brought media attention and suddenly became associated as naturism and cool for the masses of youth. Perhaps this was all different outside of America, yet, we would point to Europe and say, "See they are more enlightened about body freedom and its okay." The issues of Gay began to be brought about after the sexual revolution and women's liberation of the seventies. Then it took off after some well publicized brutality and organization followed. Our own body freedom still is stuck in a social morass in spite of its early timing and LGBT is legal and equally protected. I sure would like to get my body legally protected.
Jbee

[gymnoagori]

I went to High School in and older building and it had the old style shower that was one large room.   They used it for storage cause no boys would shower.

[jbeegoode]

Life Magazine found that it was okay to take a pic of twenty some boys in a shower and place it in the magazine. No nedative reactions.
https://www.vocativ.com/culture/fun/fairly-recently-ymca-actually-required-swimmers-nude/
Jbee

[BlueTrain]

I think nude swimming in schools was more likely to happen in the North. It was in Amherst, Massachusetts, that I had my experience in group nude swimming with high school boys. The references suggest that nude swimming largely ceased before gay issues arose. Also, some YMCA's had female members long before the days of nude swimming ended, by as much as twenty years. I suspect that in schools, parents, particularly mothers, began to be more involved in schools and may have influenced decisions to end nude swimming. I still think it's something else that a school would actually have a swimming pool. Education budgets have been squeezed in the last fifty years and a swimming pool would be way down the list of things a school would like to have. They'd rather have classrooms instead of trailers and temporary buildings--or swimming pools.

I don't recall anything worth mentioning about taking showers in junior high and high school, except that it was a very rush affair. I don't remember soap being used but it was stressed that we should dip our feet into the little tray of something that was to prevent athlete's foot.

I had no concept of homosexuality in high school or for years afterwards beyond the idea that it had something to do with being effeminate.

[eyesup]

Water chlorination for drinking water began in the early 1900’s so maybe the whole swimming pool thing was a lagger. Drinking water yes, but why do we need to put it in the swimming pool?

Hence the decision to swim nude so to be able to visually inspect the swimmers.
Who knows? Maybe it’s just one of those weird cultural things.

Duane

[BlueTrain]

The usual reason given and which we were told, was that fibers would clog the filters. But girls almost never swam nude anywhere.

Someone I correspond with and trade barbs with on another forum says he doesn't allow swimwear in his hot tub because the swimwear is contaminated with detergents. My answer to that is that if you were really interested in keeping the hot tub (and pool) clean, it would be better to throw in the swimwear and keep out the people. That's probably true for those hot springs way out West.