Encounters...what to do?

[Greenbare Woods]

Yes.  Police are the sworn enemies of freedom. 

[jbeegoode]

We were protesting ourside of a school board meeting one evening, including my 10 year old son with his smaller, "Save the Desert" Pick it sign. The officer under orders from the corrupt school board members was attempting to remove us from the area. We made them look bad.

We had our attorney at hand. He went up to the head police officer, identified himself and asked, " You are sworn to uphold the constitution, are you not?"

The cop straightened his back and said proudly, "Why yes."

The attorney crooked his head sideways and up, "Have you heard of the 1st Amendment?"

We had our say after that.

My point being, that there is hope. Under all of the thuggery, nearly every cop wants to believe that he is a good guy.

Jbee

[Davie]

Yes.  Police are the sworn enemies of freedom.

The Police in a well served democracy are not the sworn enemies of freedom unless of course you want the freedom to riot, commit arson , rob old age pensioners etc.etc. A number of Police Officers have died defending the freedom to live a peaceful life under the rule of law. I saw one of my colleagues killed and I'm proud to have served as a Police Officer for many years.

There are bad apples and Police Officers need to be accountable but it is not right to make a statement that Police Officers are sworn enemies!

Davie

[Greenbare Woods]

The Police in a well served democracy are not the sworn enemies of freedom unless of course you want the freedom to riot, commit arson , rob old age pensioners etc.etc.
Davie

This whole discussion has been about having a few moments of legal freedom without our lives being destroyed by over zealous cops.   We just want freedom to go about our daily lives in a legal manner.  And we talk about it here because that isn't really possible anywhere that cops rule.  We are not rioting, burning, or robbing.  We are just human beings wanting to walk on the earth in freedom.  Not happening here.   

This is from JB's post:

If it ticks off the local police head, or he/she sees you as a threat to public decency, or thinks that there may be fire under the smoke, or his idea of justice has not been served, there can be harassment, which I have seen. You can't leave your door and see a cop without being stopped. I found in my case (I was too political, not a nude issue), that there was a group within the department that did the fascist deeds, not all of them. Years ago, I had a friend make a complaint after beating an arrest. He got stopped every time any cop saw him. He decided to move and drive another car, rather than live as a target.

It may not be what you and your cop buddies tell each other, but its the real experience of real citizens on the street.  I'm not going to get into a long debate.  I have to fear and hide even minding my own business on my own land.   Yes, cops are the antithesis of freedom. Cops are the sworn enemies of every freedom loving citizen.  My freedom is under constant threat of violence and arrest.

[jbeegoode]

We used to call them "peace officers" Protect and serve. Things have been getting progressively militaristic, like some third world dictatorships that I've visited. There's a bad attitude, an insulting controlling condescending authority attitude that is becoming general wide spread culture in this country. Even the smiling polite ones are abusing their authority and MY FREEDOMS while they detain me for no reason. When you are trained to fear and overreact with the warning that you or your partner's life could be in jeopardy if you don't, it starts an accruing precedent. These guys are human, they're susceptible. They are not all bright shinning stars to begin with, most just average folks, and then of course some shouldn't be in uniform. Many now are coming into policing after military training and conditioning/training as an occupying military force. They just don't get it. They don't understand freedom. They understand good guys and bad guys, feeling heroic, hotdogs and beer under a flag and machismo. Lawyers are bad guys, others are bad guys, anyone could be lethal, unusual is suspect, US Constitution is just an impediment to doing a job if they actually understood it and didn't have to refer to a supervisor to ask about it.

Anymore, when I find a cop that seems to emit peace, respect and freedom, I want to embrace 'em. It is just that sadly unusual. They come around like a dark cloud and hover over crowds, stern, all contempt and business. They are detached and isolated. The enforcers of a police state.

Before the declaration of drug wars, there were a few bad apples, some corruption, but police could generally be trusted and depended on. Now, you never know when one is going to suddenly use force for no justified reason. Particularly when no one is watching. It is always in the air, a danger is implied, when even during the mundane of getting a traffic ticket. That's a change in America in my lifetime and particularly in the last 20 years. It's not just happening to the poor anymore. The police often think that they are in a war. Did the people change that much? No, but many are reacting to oppression, the culture created by problematic cops and the get tough law and order politicians grandstanding.

 We are right in the middle, trying to mind our own business under inappropriate threat for doing so.
Jbee

   

[Davie]

Thank goodness I live this side of the pond! I used to enjoy visiting the Us but if its that bad.....

Davie 

[jbeegoode]

The trick is to avoid law enforcement. Most people mind their own business. You are white, passing through, an accent and a passport with visa, just drive a nice late model car. You'll be safe to visit. Caught naked, just plead ignorance to the cop and act confused. Former cops get preferential treatment. Their nearly above the law, but that's another issue.

When you wrote that Bobbies still walk among the populace unarmed, I was literally stunned, stopped cold trying to get my head around that.
Somewhere, Officer Andy knows everybody and is there being a part of, and then in the next little town Bubba is out there looking for prey to pass through his speed trap, search them and hoping for his lucky day.
Jbee

[Peter S]

As Davie says, there are the good and the bad in every sphere of life and the police have their problems like the rest of us. There definitely seems to be some big differences between the UK and US approaches to "law enforcement", not least as demonstrated by JB's amazement that UK police do not routinely carry guns. I would say that over here we get three views of the US police:

1 - the Hollywood view, where most cops are good guys, crack lots of jokes and break all the rules for the common good.

2 - the news view when they're protecting the public in the wake of the latest mass shooting

3 - a slightly frightening view, again via the news, when they seem intent on breaking up crowds and deploying ex-military hardware such as armoured cars!

All these views are completely skewed away from reality, so I regard all as suspect.

The direct experiences Bob and JB have had with their police have inevitably coloured their feelings, but I'd be interested to know how much of that is historical and has not been updated by more recent interaction (things might have changed?), and how much has been recent interaction. My own exposure to the police centres on seeing them dealing with road accidents, otherwise it's all filtered by news organisations who tend to only report on the scandals and problems.

peter

[Greenbare Woods]

There was a news story out of Florida, USA this week.  The police held a public demonstration for the media and public to teach people how to act in a "Hands up don't shot" situation.  With media and public gathered to watch they had an elderly woman volunteer do a "roll play" of someone being arrested.  They intended to teach citizens how to be safe when confronted by police.

Because they were the police they shot and killed her anyway.   Killing people is what they do.  Its their training. Its who they are.  Even with an elderly woman in a public relations roll play, they killed her. 

American police are out of control.  We are not safe while they roam our streets with guns.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/10/woman-fatally-shot-in-accident-during-fla-citizen-police-academy-lethal-force-simulation/

[Davie]

A dreadful mistake but do you seriously expect your Police to go unarmed when you have the second amendment?

We have strict firearms legislation in the UK and our Police are generally unarmed and don't want to carry. We have armed response officers who are all highly trained. We have trained officers carrying Tasars too and its the lesser trained ones that have caused the odd problem.

I note that Australia had two may gun killings and the introduction of strict firearms legislation means more Australians are living than would otherwise be the case.

What the Police of all nations need to understand is that the greatest tools in their tool-box is their brain, ears and their voice, to get what's needs by persuasion and by talking to people and actually listening

Davie 

[Greenbare Woods]

A dreadful mistake but do you seriously expect your Police to go unarmed when you have the second amendment? Davie 

I notice how casually you waved off another police murder.  "A dreadful mistake."  And then move on to excusing police.    As a police retiree, Dave, you and your friends just don't get it yet.  You are a long way from being able to listen. 

and by talking to people and actually listening 

A great deal of police listening to the people is needed, but it is clearly not happening yet. 

When we go out naked we are in constant fear of having our lives destroyed by police, even though the law in these parts does not prohibit naked people.  We need the police off our backs and out of our pockets.   

Its time for police to change sides. Police need to be on the side of the people and not the sworn enemies of the people.  Police should be protecting my safety to live as a free man in a free country, not hiding behind a bush waiting to rob me, imprison me, or kill me.  Its time for police to start listening to the people, actually listening.  As long as police are just waiving off our concerns with their ongoing killings, robberies, and brutal beatings, they have not yet started to listen.  I should not have to fear police just to take out my trash naked. 

Bob

[Davie]

Oh dear. I feel so sorry that you live in such a country where your Police Force is so remote. Maybe you could learn a little from us. We're not perfect but as a Police Service we always tried to listen, sometimes we failed but by and large we did, and do, Police by consent.

Davie 

[milfmog]

Bob,

If I thought your view of the US police was accurate you can be certain I would not entertain visiting the "land of the free". Fortunately, your view does not appear to be an accurate reflection of reality for most Americans.

While I do not doubt that you have some bad guys in uniform (we have some here too) I will not allow that minority to colour my view of the entire force. I still look forward to visiting the States again at some point and remain confident that any interactions I have with authority there are far more likely to be civil than otherwise.

Have fun (I believe that is still allowed, even in the USA...)


Ian.

[Greenbare Woods]

Bob,If I thought your view of the US police was accurate you can be certain I would not entertain visiting the "land of the free". Fortunately, your view does not appear to be an accurate reflection of reality for most Americans.

There are a lot of things going on in the US.   I cannot say if my views reflect "most Americans" or just many Americans.   There is a Facebook group called "Police the Police" with a million followers.  There are riots in the streets of numerous cities demanding changes.  There are activist groups threatening to kill as many police as they can.  The police are holding public "role playing" demonstrations to educate people how to avoid getting killed, (such as the one I posted news about above) but even that doesn't seem to work.   The US already has more men in prisons than any other nation ever.  The US cops kill another man every 8 hours.   That compares to the UK where cops have probably killed only 8 people in the past century. 

Even when they aren't killing people, their brutal arrest and jail process is a horrible punishment for people who broke no law.  Its really gone nuts in the US. 

Bob

[ric]

got to say my first encounter with officialdom in the us did not inspire any great desire to return...the arrivals procedure at newark was a farce.   loads of gates for us citizens, few for anyone else , nobody waiting at the us desks 2 hour queue for everone else, then surly staff who gave the impression that you were something smelly theyed picked up on their shoe .   and this was way before 9/11 so god knows what its like now.
all i know is if ever i have to return it wont be via newark.

coming back the airline check in guy in florida gave us seats scattered accross the airplane, when i complained that that wasnt on with small children, he said the cabin staff would sort us seats together, when we got to the plane cabin staff said thats your seats only way to change is to go back to checkin and get on a later flight... and miss the transatlantic connection at newark.
easily sorted by just ignoring the cabin staff sitting together and giving our seat numbers to the passengers who found us in their seats.   then when we got on the connecting flight expecting the same performance the plane was virtually empty , why did the guy give us scattered seats? was he just pissy for the sake of it or high or what.
anyway upshot was we aint going back anytime soon. europe and africa seem to want tourists to enjoy the experience and return.

onto english police, in general ive found them reasonable, but there are bad ones , i had one threaten to arrest me for parking on a yellow line in the village high street..causing an obstruction.. didnt like being told i was allowed to stop to load, which in fact even allows completeion of relevent paperwork, and it was his car parked next to me that was blocking the road and the bus in front of him hadnt had any trouble getting through. could have got silly but whilst we were debating the issue our young un had finished the loading so i capitulated and moved on .