Author Topic: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?  (Read 227087 times)

Davie

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1350 on: September 06, 2023, 09:21:15 AM »
Apologies about the rubbishy spelling. It should be  "indecent"

Lets look at the England and Wales legislation. (Scotland is slightly different)

Exposure
[F1(1)A person commits an offence if

Apologies about the rubbishy spelling. It should be  "indecent"

Lets look at the England and Wales legislation. (Scotland is slightly different)

Note  It was an underscore that caused the issue  Also my spellchecker was switched off.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2023, 10:12:08 AM by Davie »

Davie

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1351 on: September 06, 2023, 09:27:06 AM »
Apologies about the above post - when saved it chopped most of the message off. Here is the full text

Apologies about the rubbishy spelling. It should be  "indecent"

Lets look at the England and Wales legislation. (Scotland is slightly different)

Exposure
[F1(1)A person commits an offence if
(a)he intentionally exposes his genitals, and
(b)he intends that someone will see them and be caused alarm or distress.

The words are very important and the section was written to protect naturists, although for some time it was misinterpreted by the Police and occassionally still is, but this has not lead to an arrest or prosecution.

Intent - this must be proved by the prosecution. A man in an aroused state approaching a women shouting "have you seen anything as good as this before," will be good eveidence of intent.
We then have the words "and" plus another intent that he intends people will see the genitals. (A friend once split his trousers open whilst walking. There was no sight of the genitals but had there been there was no intent they would be seen. (He was the butt of a few jokes for some days afterwards)

Alarm and distress. This means more than shocked, surprised etc. Let me give an example which I became aware of in a non-naturist situation.
A friend was marshalling a fun run and was manning a barrier to stop traffic going into the race area. One motorist and one motor cyclist took exceptio and roared up to him stopping a foot or so away from him. He was alarmed for his safety. Later he suffered sleepless nights, flashbacks and nightmares. That is distress.

There really is little to say about a grey area. The law is clear and the fact there have been no known prosecutions against naturists illustrates this. We have naked bike rides in the UK and we have some (rather brave in my view) naturists cycling to work naked in London, and some actually going into shops. Some times there's a fuss from a member of the public but as stated the law is on the side of the naurist but I admit its taking time for all Police Officers to be aware of the channge. Our BN mmebership cards have a link printed on them for us to show to officers. You can see the advice to Police at:
https://library.college.police.uk/docs/nudity.pdf  The advice even includes words that an arrest may be an over reaction and disproportionate.

Davie  8)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2023, 10:12:31 AM by Davie »

Greenbare Woods

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1352 on: September 06, 2023, 08:04:06 PM »
The older I get the less I'm willing to tell other people how to live, and the more I object to laws that enforce one person's prejudices on other people.  I have learned that respecting other people's emotions, feelings, and behaviors doesn't cost me and is often interesting to watch.  There is a human tendency to want to control other people, but unless they are actually hurting someone, I prefer to respect their choices. 

If someone isn't actually hurting someone else, the government has no legitimate reason to prohibit whatever he or she is doing, nor to punish that person for doing it.  Virtually all "indecent exposure" is not hurting anyone, and merely imposes one person's sexual predilections or phobias on other people.   
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Davie

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1353 on: September 06, 2023, 10:16:05 PM »
Here in the UK nothing is unlawful unless the law says its unlawful. I agree with most of your comments and perhaps we are debating the term indecent exposure. Just walking about naked is not indecent exposure.

I'm afraid that what we know as indecent exposure, the act of displaying the genitals in a deliberate attempt to shock or upset does hurt people. It's men trying to exert control over a women at worst and at best upsetting them. I've seen the result at a professional level and its an abhorrent thing for a man to do, and it is men we're talking about, doing it.

Walking naked without intending to cause upset is one thing, I do it, but I'd be horrified to think of deliberately acting in a sexual way to an unsuspecting  and unconnected person. Actually the law is clear and sensible, being drafted for naturists. Act sensibly and there's no problem. Act in an inappropriate way and you'l  be in trouble. It's those acting in an inappropriate manner that makes it difficult for genuine naturists.

Davie 8)


nuduke

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1354 on: September 09, 2023, 12:35:46 AM »
I feel the need to respond on this one but I'm not quite sure what to respond because Davie has covered most of it.
The thing about naturism is that it makes clear and disconnects sexuality from nakedness.  As jbee says, naturism is a choice of attire.  However, I also support David's comment to the effect that everyone can engage in their sex life too.  I think naturists have gained the knack of detaching nudity from sex as well as being able to recognise that sexuality is something you can detach yourself from when you want and vice versa, bring it into play when desired (and appropriate of course).  For a naturist there are other triggers than nudity (arguably more important ones) that transition you into sexuality.  I'm sure this is true also for peoples that live almost naked normally in South America, Africa etc.  This is certainly true for me today and is the product of my naturist journey - I can choose to be sexual or not, my state of dress has nothing really to do with it (except it's so much nicer having sex naked than clothed - everything is nicer naked!).


However the various negative experiences that Davie recounts does emphasise how careful the naturist should be in not assuming what another person's reaction might be.  I'm afraid my stance is to doubt and take the least risk option.  Call me a coward but I prefer my own discretion than having to cite the CPS rules to policemen who may not necessarily embrace the presumption of innocence principle (see below)!


Finally, regarding innocence, Jbee, I think you may have grasped the wrong end of the policeman's truncheon there, m'friend.  UK law, in common with the law of almost every civilised free country carries the principle of innocence until proven guilty - not the other way round in the UK as your post of the 6th rather suggests.  Whilst I allow for the possibility that your statement is ironic, the presumption of innocence has been in place at least since Roman law and also embodied in all the Abrahamic religions. "Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat" and all that, old bean  ;D ;D ;D


Well, that's quite a lot to say in the end!  :D


Happily naked but secluded
John

jbeegoode

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1355 on: September 09, 2023, 10:00:04 PM »
Mentioning John P. who used to bring this up. A naturist is just like anyone, but without clothing.

If not equal, prejudice is projected upon those whose body is showing, particularly genitals. In other words it isn't the dress of someone, it is how they behave.

Nudity even more than body adornment only makes a statement in context of the social/cultural sensibilities around a person. Nudity can be used to attract attention in political protests, because it actually still does attract attention, because it is not a norm.

However adornment creates attention and more frequently is used to make simple social statements, as well as political.
A nude person is probably less threatening than what many people wear to intimidate, sometimes just shock, get people out of the box, or protest the way prejudice works (it ain't all a race, or gender thing). As the song goes, "you can't tell the book by the cover." Even when you strip off the paperback or hard cover, the text is still there (lots of metaphors in the condition of a book cover).

Overt sexual aggression clothed or not, can be indecent, but I'd call it something else than indecent because there is a point where being uncomfortable becomes being damaged. I was in that sort of parameter when I mentioned "grey areas." Is there a grey area?

Nuduke's comment regarding innocence:

As for the presumption of innocence, as a 13 year old in France, I got off of my bike to read some spray paint in the street of my neighborhood. I was ciphering the unfinished, "Ben Tarnell eat.... ", when an angry voice began to shout at me demanding my name. A few days later my dad and I were at the military police station about the matter. Very serious problem for my dad. Me deported and a career changer in the military for dad.

I was aggressively interrogated by a uniformed gendarme who assumed my guilt. The Military policeman had to physically get between us, explaining that I was innocent until proven guilty. That, maybe traumatizing experience, had a profound lifelong impact on me. I valued my constitutional rights more and have been upset, as i have watched that right slowly progressively deteriorate in USA, since. I was told that USA is the only country with that, presumption. The idea was reinforced when I studied the constitution and saw the Bill of Rights. It mentions specific reactions caused by the actions of the previous government, that was the King of England and that parliament before the revolution.

Perhaps, it was like USA more since 911, practicing similarly double standards of law upon its own empire. The idea that only citizens somehow deserve the rights. I don't know, but that is why I ask about the presumption of innocence in your country. I've figured it to be like the rest. Most European countries have come out of royalty/subjects situations and evolved from that. We here had a more abrupt change. I'm seeing more functional democratic process in European countries these days than here. I'm curious about knowing the truth and maybe applying that to the different nudity laws. The statement that that has been in law most everywhere, for a millennia of two, is confounding to me. Time for internet search....

The topic does certainly pertain to gaining body freedoms.
Jbee
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Davie

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1356 on: September 09, 2023, 11:00:32 PM »
There's a difference between the UK and much of Europe. Our law is based on common law and we have the presumption of innocence  unlike say France with the presumption of guilt. Another fundamental difference is in European law everything is illegal unless the say otherwise. In English based law everything is legal unless the law prohibits it. There is no law saying dimple nudity is illegal.

Davie  8)

Greenbare Woods

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1357 on: September 10, 2023, 04:21:12 PM »
There's a difference between the UK and much of Europe. Our law is based on common law and we have the presumption of innocence  unlike say France with the presumption of guilt. Another fundamental difference is in European law everything is illegal unless the say otherwise. In English based law everything is legal unless the law prohibits it. There is no law saying dimple nudity is illegal.
Davie  8) 

Yes, French law is based on the Napoleonic Code which presumes government authority.  In the US only Louisianan law is based on the Napoleonic Code.  I really don't know about law in the rest of Europe. .
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nuduke

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1358 on: September 10, 2023, 10:02:51 PM »
Oooh that's interesting.  I didn't know France was the opposite i.e. guilty till proven innocent.  How medieval!
John



nuduke

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1359 on: September 10, 2023, 10:08:06 PM »
Hang on a minute....
From Wikipedia:  Presumption of innocence - Wikipedia


In France, article 9 of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen of 1789, which has force as constitutional law, begins: "Any man being presumed innocent until he has been declared guilty ..." The Code of Criminal Procedure states in its preliminary article that "any person suspected or prosecuted is presumed innocent for as long as their guilt has not been established"[6] and the jurors' oath repeats this assertion (article 304; note that only the most serious crimes are tried by jury in France).[33] However, there exists a popular misconception that under French law, the accused is presumed guilty until proven innocent.
I didn't think the French were that backward!! :D
John

Davie

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1360 on: September 11, 2023, 09:23:21 AM »
You are correct. I apologise and I should have done some research rather than rely on a popular misconception.
I've learnt something - thank-you.

Davie  8)

jbeegoode

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1361 on: September 11, 2023, 11:30:14 AM »
I also did a  Presumption of innocence - Wikipedia and Presumption of Guilt. I jumped into the history, curious of what Nuduke said about "Roman Law" It expressed that there is a more enlightened Europe. It made me see the world as a more comfortable reasonable place.

My bad experience, which certainly doesn't jive with the wiki article, happened in 1965.That was a Europe still recovering from WWII only 20 years...and it was 1965. TV was censored and very limited, military and occupational government was still happening in places. The interrogator was literally in my face. Perhaps it was because I was a kid. Perhaps it was because I was an American kid (there was a lot of anti-American sentiment amongst Parisians back then (That was also the year that De Gaulle kicked our military out of the country). That was the context, yet the US military police officer had to inform the gendarme about US law presumed innocence and that he was in a US military base and jurisdiction. He had to step in between us, sort of pull him off of me from my perspective. It was as if the jerk had no clue. Abusive.

There I was, consequences of being deported, my parents with me and then my dad, a ranking officer with that on his permanent record, a very serious career setback. All I had done was stop wholly innocently to read a sign on the road. That was a significant message about rights and government overreach for me. These days, I have watched the erosion in USA starting with then Governor Ronald Raygun's no knock law evolve into standard procedure military incursions into children's homes and full scale blanket survielance incrementally. It gets me pumped up.

There have also been much expression toward this in European Union expressions of rights, according to the article. It was a good surprise. Even some these backward Muslim countries have some idea, apparently.

Still, a USA judge may often take an anti-nudity position, if his concept of nude is sexuality in his ignorance, or kids involved in the charge.  When the prosecutor and judge are acting together on assumptions with prejudice, the defendant can be in a big penalty.  Just the arrest on one's record can be used against an innocent man, when looking at character online. There can be presumed guilt, just like that of those ignorant duff-ices that made the phone calls.
Jbee
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nuduke

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1362 on: September 17, 2023, 03:17:10 PM »
Umm...to return politely from the niceties of comparative international jurisprudence to one of our longest ongoing threads..."How was your month....."
My month has taken an upturn being as how we're in Cyprus for a holiday in a very nice hotel. As I opined a few posts ago, reasonably accurately, that there was unlikely to be any opportunity for naturism outside our room, nevertheless today I have had an excellent bit of naked time. We have got a room in this hotel with a terrace at the front which contains a small plunge swimming pool about five breast strokes in length.  Despite my hopes that it would be secluded enough for naturism, it proved to be, as the brochures and website photos had indicated, that the terrace gives on to one of the transit walkways, a couple or 3 steps down from our terrace, of this large hotel complex.
Nevertheless, today I decided to throw caution to the winds since after a few days of observing, this walkway is not that well used. So I doff my swimming trunks (which were almost naturist being a very brief pair of thong swimmers) and spend some time swimming and floating naked in our pool. I have to say that this experience was quite powerful. In the hot sunshine of the Mediterranean and now naked, I experienced a rush of that "naturist endorphin" euphoria which I had not experienced for some time and really not fully since my early days of wandering naked in woodlands. It was a surprisingly strong feeling and somewhat took me by surprise in its intensity but the flow of water around my genitals and anus, that is the key difference in swimming naked versus wearing swim trunks, gave me that feeling of being truly nude in at least a natural element (water) and whilst not really in nature ( well, in the shade of a banana and a palm tree) that feeling of freedom whilst naked returned most welcomingly to my mind and body.
I floated around for a bit until a cleaning lady appeared along the path slowly sweeping up bits and pieces of sand, leaves etc from the walkway,  her head due to be passing exactly level with the edge of the pool in which I was swimming naked and, if my information about Greek law is correct, illegally!  So my naked time (for today!) was ended and I had to scoot to the other end of the pool and scoop myself out incongruously and rather clumsily behind a towel, but (a thing learned in my naturist years), unhurriedly and without any unseemly haste or panic.
In the event, the rather elderly woman didn't really look, being more engaged with the crap on the ground rather than the chap in the pool! 
John

jbeegoode

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1363 on: September 17, 2023, 10:10:03 PM »
I just happened to see a video of several nude beaches on Cyprus. One that I remember is Pissouri Beach. On Cyprus nudity is illegal, but these are not so bad a trek to get to and known sanctuaries.

 Here's a place with sea caves, near Peyia, Cyprus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFE5tzkFFHI

A place that can host banana plants must be my kinda place. I figured that the winters would kill them.

Jbee
« Last Edit: September 17, 2023, 10:28:08 PM by jbeegoode »
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nuduke

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Re: How was your month for Free Range Naturism?
« Reply #1364 on: September 21, 2023, 10:32:17 PM »
 Nice place but too much hassle, Jbee.
That location was indeed about 30mins drive from our hotel, but that would have meant hiring a car and devoting most of a day just to that little time naked on the rocks.  It was about peak 90-100 deg throughout our stay and I'm no good in that sort of heat without a source of shade, due to my pale British skin!  So I would have been quite time limited and the climb down, and worse up, whilst to a lovely looking place would not really have been worthwhile given the effort, expense and organisation just to spend a little time there.  The difference between that opportunity and your wanderings, Jbee, is that most of the time you're discovering and going somewhere or at least having a significant trail to walk.  That's much more of an experience than finding that little cul-de-sac of a place to end up and get bored albeit without clothes.  Being naked isn't the end in itself, rather it's what you do in your naked time that makes the experience of being naked worthwhile.
To continue the Cyprus story, having established that our location in the hotel wasn't too exposed, I spent more time over the next few days naked in our private pool and around our walled terrace, much to the irritation of Mrs N. who, as soon as I doffed my one garment (brief swim trunks), would inform me of the substantial list of possible people who might suddenly appear (gardener, chambermaid, other resident etc), notice my naked ass (or worse!) and report me to the authorities.  That on each occasion that didn't happen, as I inevitably pointed out, didn't seem to quench her anxiety too much! 
So I did get a modicum of nude time after all without any associated hassle of going there.
John