Nudes in the news

[Greenbare Woods]

I lived in Los Alamos, NM for a while.  The altitude is over 7,000 feet.  (2130 meters)

Several Olympic swim teams would come there for a couple of weeks and use their pool to train at high altitude.  The pool had a large carpeted seating area where people could watch swimming competitions. 

The Italian Olympic swim team didn't bother with locker rooms.  They just changed their swim suits and such in the seating area.  Bodies are no big deal.

Quite a few of the local women would go watch them "swim." 

Canadian politics is somewhat crazy from my perspective.   Reading the article it appears that psychosexual deviants who pretend to be the opposite sex don't want to feel out of place in single sex locker rooms.   Its liberal stupid enabling psychotic deviants.

[jbeegoode]

I have a couple of these "psychotic deviants" as friends, Bob. One is boy to girl and one is girl to boy. They are as they are, coping, experimenting and doing their best with what they are, what they feel and it ain't easy for them. They would probably have an easier time of things, if they didn't have to deal with gender clothing and roles.  I figure nude would be more natural, less confusing for them to work out their identity. It would be less weird and confusing for the rest of us, who have difficulty understanding their unique situations. Clothes shouldn't actually make the man.
Jbee

[John P]

Speaking of clothing. There's a fairly social naturist in this area (meaning, quite a few people around here know her, so it's no secret, but I won't use any names) who is a male-to-female transexual. She's gone through the entire process, surgery and all. I saw her grow breasts, first through hormones and then with implants, and finally I met her in her first post-transition year at a past Naturist Gathering. Trying not to look as if I was cringing internally, I said, "So you've really done it", and she said, "Yes, you can see I have". I said, "Well then, next time I see you you'll probably be wearing a sarong." We both laughed.

The following year I saw her again and she was wearing a sarong. I didn't say anything.

[nuduke]

Speaking of clothing. There's a fairly social naturist in this area (meaning, quite a few people around here know her, so it's no secret, but I won't use any names) who is a male-to-female transexual. She's gone through the entire process, surgery and all. I saw her grow breasts, first through hormones and then with implants, and finally I met her in her first post-transition year at a past Naturist Gathering. Trying not to look as if I was cringing internally, I said, "So you've really done it", and she said, "Yes, you can see I have". I said, "Well then, next time I see you you'll probably be wearing a sarong." We both laughed.

The following year I saw her again and she was wearing a sarong. I didn't say anything.

That is really sad. The matter of adopting a new gender has meant that she has adopted a different set of standards as she did when a man.  Do you think the sarong just her adopting what she thought were the norms for women so as to be more of a woman, John P, or was it less conscious adoption and more of a reflex reaction?  I wonder if her experience as a woman had changed her that much?
John

[Greenbare Woods]

I have a couple of these "psychotic deviants" as friends, Bob. One is boy to girl and one is girl to boy. They are as they are, coping, experimenting and doing their best with what they are, what they feel and it ain't easy for them.
Jbee

I have known psychotic people for many decades now.  Most eventually come to realize that the years of struggle did not solve their psychological problems, it only made a worse mess of their lives.  The depression and suicide rates are horrific.  Facilitating someone's mental problems as an enabler does not really help them.

The Canadian ban on nudity in pool locker rooms appears to be driven by deviants wanting to pretend to be whatever sex they choose while not having to expose their biological sex. 

Enabling sexual dysfunction is not helping.  It leads to failure and suicide. 

[John P]

That is really sad. The matter of adopting a new gender has meant that she has adopted a different set of standards as she did when a man.  Do you think the sarong just her adopting what she thought were the norms for women so as to be more of a woman, John P, or was it less conscious adoption and more of a reflex reaction?  I wonder if her experience as a woman had changed her that much?
John

There are undoubtedly varied things going on there, and I don't know which item dominates. I'm sorry to see that so many women who at least do get as far as attending naturist events don't feel comfortable enough to be naked, but they're hugely outnumbered and likely to feel insecure. And in places I go, like the Eastern Naturist Gathering, it's become so much of a custom for the women to wear sarongs now, that I think a woman who actually did want to be naked would feel additional pressure not to, because that would isolate her not just as a woman in mostly male company, but set her apart from most of the other women. I certainly wouldn't want to say anything about it, knowing that it would come out sounding like "I'm a man and I want to see naked women"! I don't know the specific feelings that my transexual acquaintance has, but it might be that as someone who's establishing a female identity, she feels most comfortable doing what most of the other women do. You said "her experience as a woman" but I think there's also "her experience fitting into the way a woman is expected to behave". I mean, if she were nude when almost all the other women have clothes on, she might get the thought "Well then, am I a real woman?"

[dbwvogel]

The Canadian ban on nudity in pool locker rooms appears to be driven by deviants wanting to pretend to be whatever sex they choose while not having to expose their biological sex. 

Enabling sexual dysfunction is not helping.  It leads to failure and suicide.

I must disagree. I feel the news story suggests an entirely different cause of the policy; although driven in part by the understanding that there may be transgender people using the facilities, there is also the recognition that single-gender facilities don't serve people with special needs, such as parents of small children and older or disabled people. The policy is driven by textile-compulsives who assume that all users need to be protected from the sight of anyone else in a natural state, particularly (though not exclusively) someone of a different gender. In a way the policy is doing one good in opening the facilities for everyone (and the idea that they'll be ready to have a single facility for everyone in the future is not in and of itself bad); where we part company with them is in their thinking that the average user needs protection. However, given the current state of our culture (or Canada's, at any rate) we can hardly blame them for that - even if we vehemently disagree.

I will add that I find this blatant condemnation of transgendered people both distasteful and unhelpful to the conversation.

[nuduke]

John P, your remark

You said "her experience as a woman" but I think there's also "her experience fitting into the way a woman is expected to behave".

is bang on.  I felt that might be the principal reason for her change of habit. (habit in both senses!!)
John

[jbeegoode]

There is peer pressure, fitting in, fear of rejection, dying to be like all the other girls, fulfilling the dream to somehow be accepted as a woman, to be seen as a woman, to have a sense that, "I am a woman."

I would suppose that that fulfillment is more difficult in a naked male, or partly female body, so I'd expect a "she to he" to be drawn toward female clothing, until the full change is performed. The people that I know admit that they are stuck in the middle at that big castration step. They do hormones, implants, but....

They often identify with being transgender, not a woman, or a woman almost, which is who they are and still having to identify outwardly as one or the other, wanting to identify as a woman, feeling as a woman. Yes, it is confusing and messy in the trans. Too bad that it isn't "cut" and dry, but it is expensive and scary and takes time.

John P., would it have something to do with her being trans that she may get too much attention from the curious, or does she enjoy talking about the process and outcome? Would that vary by her mood?
Jbee

[Greenbare Woods]

They often identify with being transgender, not a woman, or a woman almost, which is who they are and still having to identify outwardly as one or the other, wanting to identify as a woman, feeling as a woman. Yes, it is confusing and messy in the trans. Too bad that it isn't "cut" and dry, but it is expensive and scary and takes time.
Jbee

Too often ends with depression and suicide.  Enabling someone's psychological problems does not actually help them.

[jbeegoode]

Learning to cope with an abnormality in a socially constrained world is going to be difficult, no matter what it is. These psychological issues are going to be a problem whether they are "enabled" as you say, or not. For some it will lead to depression and suicide, no matter what course the person chooses. The person needs to be able to make some choices and has a right to find happiness however they may feel works and they have the right to make mistakes, if it doesn't hurt someone else.

To me, enabling implies my control over another's behavior and my judgement of them. There are many who believe nudity to be a disorder and enforce their will on me. They might say they shouldn't enable me and put pants on me. That my nude body will get burned, or frozen, or sick, or infect someone else, or some other silly notion. There are potential psychological detriments to being simply nude, if the circumstances fall into place that will destroy someones life, economically, or legally being labeled. There are severe enforced weird potentials.

Clothing as an option means clothing is an option. Clothing can create all kinds of bizarre destructive behaviors. Should we enable people to continue to do these destructive behaviors, or force them to be naked and natural? Whose confusion and problem is it?

In a locker room, we've got gender issues going on that shouldn't be there. We restrict women from men's locker rooms. Would we restrict gays men from locker rooms for the same reasons? Where does a person go to change if they are feeling like a woman and are physically part of both? It would seem that coed locker rooms would be the answer, but that ain't gonna happen in a public government entity, like parks and rec. So, they restrict, giving separate facilities to everyone.

I remember a facility like that in Bolivia, years ago. I would meet my Bolivian girlfriend in the separate shower changing stalls and we would have sex there, somewhat discretely. She lived with her family and my hotel wouldn't allow her to my room, assuming that she might be a puta.
Jbee

[John P]

John P., would it have something to do with her being trans that she may get too much attention from the curious, or does she enjoy talking about the process and outcome? Would that vary by her mood?
Jbee

The person I know is more of an acquaintance than a friend, and we haven't had this discussion.But  I imagine you're right, that at some times she'd be more eager to talk about it than others times. I can't deny that this whole business makes me uncomfortable, and I wouldn't seek out such a conversation.

[jbeegoode]

I've become pretty comfortable about it, but it is certainly still confusing dealing with someone in transit. I haven't been trained to deal with this professionally. That is for referral to someone. I know a local lawyer who does a lot of work with these issues, is an activist and is trans herself. She took a class from me concerning transpersonal energy several years ago. I spoke with her, we had a warm relationship. I bumped into her at a conference and gave her a warm hug, but immediately found that she was uncomfortable being hugged as a woman by a man. She had seemed to have her stuff down pat, but there was more than i knew. I then attended a panel of three trans people, including her. They were extremely open and candid about their lives. I learned a great deal in that hour and a half of them answering any question from the audience. They need to be heard and we all need to be able to ask like this. It is not a simple matter. I'm looking forward to an opportunity to ask such a panel about the factoring of clothing into their actions and what it would be like without clothing. I'd love to hear what the nudist acquaintance has to say about it. Maybe someday.
Jbee

[Greenbare Woods]

I first learned the ins and outs of so-called "sex change" people up close and personal from a so-called "trans" who pretended to be female.  Engaging in relationship activities with a normal person under false pretenses (lies) is equal to "rape," and legally "sexual assault" if a normal man and woman were involved.  Law and order looks the other way when a man is a victim of unwanted sexual assault. 

I learned a lot about "her" and other such people.  "She" had once run a counseling center in Chicago for messed up gender fluid people, encouraging them to mess up their lives.  It does not actually help people to encourage and enable their psychotic problems.  It leads to failure in life, serious depression, and very often suicide. 

Here is reality:
http://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children

[jbeegoode]

This is an article about giving confused children hormones, when nearly all of us adjust eventually. It doesn't say anything about adults that haven't adjusted, that have fully matured and are still confused. I'd like to read something about the why and where this confusion happens/evolves and how the developmental theory is proven, or surmised. Common sense tells me that there is a severe discomfort for someone to get into such extremes. It is wrong to simply dismiss it. It is a disorder in human nature, unusual, a phenomena. The article does imply that that there is separation of biological and mental organization, something that isn't true, something that science is just beginning to understand. Our facts to work with are inconclusive. While as it states that giving children hormones is wrong headed, even dangerous, it doesn't address adults which still carry this burden.

Although I agree with the conclusion at this point, I'd like to mention that it was written by organizational presidents with PhD's, bureaucrats, which often are defending fallacious opinions and are often bureaucrats/administrators because they make crappy therapist. Their validity should always be suspect because if their inherent limitations.

I'm throwing in a persons right to seek happiness...an adult who is inflicted with a peculiar disorder can choose to remedy themselves as they wish.

Someone getting sexy with me who is lying by omission about which sex they are, could get me into some serious anger. But then again, where do they draw the line with a disclosure? At what point during courting and sparking do you tell someone that you are a naturist? People often hold their cards before they play them. Sometimes they make mistakes when distributing their hands, too soon, or not quick enough.
Jbee